Ray Stanford has a photo of the Socorro craft & Martin Willis has seen it and is impressed but...

[DissectionStalker]

Point taken and that was a well written post. I understand if 4 dots is the perception of what we have then many think resolution is unteniable. That is not correct but the proof will be in the pudding. I can say that I personally would not, as an investigator, be putting this out here if I did not believe it. My own opinion from my own research is that what I have seen is not a hoax, is visable as described by the late honerable Lonnie Zamora, and was an incredible stroke of luck on Rays part first to take the picture and second to uncover the data some 50 years later. So until we have the go ahead to show it, which will eventually happen, I will exit the forum.
Thanks to those who read this and understand that we are just trying to present the info on this most important case in the best way possible, with no cost or event, when we are released from the promise made to Ray.

This is like a hit and run drive by accident!

I, for one, just am asking a VERY FEW questions that NEVER demanded or even asked to see the photo. I was the person that made the second post to the start of this thread topic. All I wanted to know was the Camera, lens, and film information. Every attempt by myself and several others to get this basic information has been willfully ignored without ANY explanation.

You, Ben Moss, have admitted you KNOW this information. [I can quote you in this thread.] Why have you refused to answer that basic information this entire thread that is NOW on its 261st post to this thread??? This is just Mind Boggling and really outrageous, imo. I really sincerely think of this as a shrewd technique of disinformation and freaky behavior too. Whether willful or not, it is a form of the trickster I despise.

No one asked you to leave the forum. But, before you leave, I ask you to PLEASE give us this basic technical information about this photo [and Hynek's photo too if known]. I am NOT asking to see the photo. ALL of us here, besides Constance, wink, just want the basic technical information about it.

You have no case whatsoever if you are not getting the information from the original negatives. This has nothing to do with scanning any finished photos at this point, and you know that full well. PLEASE give us that minimal information about the camera, lens, and film specs, otherwise this thread was nothing more than your drive by Socorro hit and run to shoot the restless natives. This is my expression of extreme frustration [not anger] to make known how many of us feel treated by the so called "experts" like you Ben Moss, especially, after the Roswell Slide disaster.

If you go away now leaving us empty handed without that basic camera, lens, and film information, then don't expect that any respect is going to be returned later on after the many hours we already put into this thread just to get some basic information for gosh sakes! We don't even ask to see the photo, but we want the the photo specs and information asap.

Thanks, sincerely, Ben and Tony, for helping to resolve this matter, rather than continuing further controversy and delay over such, really, simple matters.

This is not ET or a UFO Photo or Rocket Science we're asking for.

 

[withoutlimits09]

What this thread has become and WHY, imo...
I posted this in the Roswell Slide thread:

Well, well, and Richard Dolan supports Tom Carey on your recent shows. I wonder what excuses he'll make for Carey now???

I expect a lot of people are prepared to double down and triple down and maybe burn down with Ray Stanford too, but that is another subject "off topic" for this thread. Yet it is related, so let me explain why.

Part of this Roswell Slide disaster was the continual withholding of photographic information. People should know what any photo is produced from when possible. We should know as soon as possible what camera was used, what lens was used, what film type/brand and ASA rating was used. If any digital scans are done of the originals, then we should know what those specifications are too!

Withholding that information only brings on more distrust and controversy, and I see that happening now in the Stanford picture thread too. No one is demanding to see that picture now, but everyone should be allowed to know ASAP the technical information about that photo. I see a lot of similarities going on now in that other thread compared to this thread here.

I just hope debating Ray Stanford will not be banned from this forum, as it seems Chris O'Brien is suggesting that happen in another "hot thread" here. Please do not allow for that Gene. That is clear censorship and not worthy of what this forum is all about, imo.

Also, since Chris has a personal "mentor connection" and deep respect for Ray, I think it is best Chris O'Brien not moderate ANY Ray Stanford topic. It's just too emotional and painful it seems. I trust your judgement, Angel, Goggs, but Chris is just too upset when people become critical about Ray Stanford. For Chris O'Brien to suggest Ray Stanford be a banned topic at this forum is over the top, and Chris should back down from that idea 100%.

Ray is a mature man, and he can stand on his own two feet as a controversial person. He knows he has stirred controversy all his life. In fact, he has attracted it so much that it is part of his entire life history. That can never change or be rewritten by anyone.

It is Ray Stanford himself that may offer his films and photographic proofs he has withheld from the public at large, but he has to understand he will be judged beyond the MUFON experts or Chris O'Brien's word to gain any legitimacy. The Roswell Slides "experts" prove that UFO experts are NOT needed to find the truth. That is what is awaiting Ray Stanford's films and photo proofs right now. No one is going to take any experts opinion after the Roswell Slides has proven otherwise!

MUFON has PROVEN recently by its own prominent leadership members that it has very serious issues about being trustworthy, and I have the PROOF with youtube links to these MUFON leaders that went public, thankfully!!!

Though I'm certain many will double down, triple down, that I'm full of it and deserve to be banned. Constance would just love for that to happen, and I have my reasons that Chris O'Brien will attempt this too. In fact, I believe Chris would have done it long ago if he could based on all "the likes" and critical posts he's made when I called into question many things about Ray Stanford and before that about Terry Sherman and Skinwalker too.

Here is what Chris posted today:

Here is the Roswell Slide thread I am referring to:
The Roswell Slides Have Been Leaked Online

Censorship and bans would be totally ridiculous. Ray is a controversial figure who has attached himself to several suspect things in the past. He has previously made crazy claims without any evidence (Fatima, Channeling Jesus, UFO detection devices etc), so I think it's only right there is a fair amount of skepticism in light of any evidence.

This is a public forum where people interested are free to weigh in, banning those people who's opinion you don't agree with is the pinnacle of cowardliness and intellectual weakness. Take on the objections and offer firm rebuttals. Don't ban people out of emotion. Hopefully we all make it unscathed. However, knowing the history of the moderators, that is probably unlikely.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

We don't ban people for disagreeing. We ban them when they violate our rules of the road. Stop the personal attacks on Stanford — period! But I understand why people want him to disclose his stuff.

 

[Burnt State]

This is like a hit and run drive by accident!

I, for one, just am asking a VERY FEW questions that NEVER demanded or even asked to see the photo. I was the person that made the second post to the start of this thread topic. All I wanted to know was the Camera, lens, and film information. Every attempt by myself and several others to get this basic information has been willfully ignored without ANY explanation.

You, Ben Moss, have admitted you KNOW this information. [I can quote you in this thread.] Why have you refused to answer that basic information this entire thread that is NOW on its 261st post to this thread. This is just Mind Boggling and really outrageous, imo. I really sincerely think of this as a shrewd technique of disinformation and freaky behavior too. Whether willful or not, it is a form of the trickster I despise.

Before you leave, I ask you to PLEASE give us this basic technical information about this photo [and Hynek's photo too if known]. I am NOT asking to see the photo. ALL of us here, besides Constance, wink, just want the basic technical information about it.

You have no case whatsoever if you are not getting the information from the original negatives. This has nothing to do with scanning any finished photos at this point, and you know that full well. Give us that minimal information about the camera and film specs, otherwise this thread was nothing more than your drive by Socorro hit and run to shoot the restless natives. This my expression of extreme frustration [not anger] to how many of us feel treated by the so called "experts" like you Ben Moss, especially, after the Roswell Slide disaster.

if these things were going to be said, could be said or if they were even fully known is all unknown at this time so it's not going to go anywhere. it's probably best to let it all slide as it's really starting to slide that way - nothing to gain really, no more reason to hold onto it. what else really needs to be said?

and there's no need to call out other forum posters, like we're on teams or something. to each their due, and respect is best. i know, sometimes this is hard because some perspectives can be infuriating. and there's a fine line between satire, wit and insult, which i'm sure i cross for many. but it's an independent space and works best when we learn new things from each other - those are the real gains. PLEASE stop calling out other posters. it's the persistent antagonism that is hard to take sometimes and takes away from some good criticism and research. there are other ways to be productive. peace, dude.

(that's my attempt an invoking an aspect of nameless, a currently lost in space former poster i enjoyed for his community creating sensibilities and exceptional creative links and dynamic knowledge base, irascible and innovative & totally worth back catalogue reading in the forums for those who weren't here then)

 

[Mr. Fibuli]

I really like how everyone is cooling out. Keep that up and try to avoid directly addressing each other, everyone gets overexcited sometimes, I think this got under control before it got too out of hand. I'm just a newbie poster but I'm a big cheerleader for the show/legit inquiry into this kind of topic and it would suck if people got banned or spent time being peeved instead of having fun/learning.

 

[DissectionStalker]

and there's no need to call out other forum posters, like we're on teams or something.

I think we need a CC: sent to:

Ray Stanford has a photo of the Socorro craft & Martin Willis has seen it and is impressed but...

AND...

Ray Stanford has a photo of the Socorro craft & Martin Willis has seen it and is impressed but...

Burnt, I know what it is to be prosecuted on this forum to be called a "Nazi" a "Stalker" and a "Federal Criminal" for posting my honest beliefs. I'm not being mean spirited right now to the person that called me two of those names. If this person can't take a joke in jest and fun to be slightly lighter in spirit, rather than being so prosecutorial with attempts to get me banned, well then, I was attempting a lighter tone when such oppression I know is real.

 

[Mr. Fibuli]

DS you are one fierce cookie- I definitely don't want to see you leave. (Fierce cookies aren't really a thing, I know.)

 

[Chuckleberryfinn]

What fun it has been posting on the forum again. What a lively and interesting discussion this has been. It is a good place to stay literate, too, by keeping the fingers pecking.

 

[DissectionStalker]

Chris is understandably totally frustrated with people expecting him to be able to direct Ray in a direction that will please them but as Chris says, you cannot tell Ray what to do.

The problem with this thinking is Ray gave his word on the Paracast maybe 1-2+ years ago to get us an audio recording he said he has of the FAA guy with the radar tracking. See my previous post about it in this thread, or search my Screen Name and "Stanford recording". We just want Ray to do what he volunteered to do for the Paracast listeners, so that's the only thing I've homed-in on.

I once used an analogy of a songwriter who tells people he is working on a once in a lifetime song but the work is taking years and years and never apparently being finished.
People would badger this musician to allow them to hear some of it because they are fed up hearing what a fantastic song it's going to be....but you know that very few artists are comfortable giving previews of their incomplete work, and certainly not to people they don't even know!

Like it or not, this is Ray's private artwork and he is under no obligation to show it before he decides the time is right and possibly more importantly than that, Ray knows how poisonous this field is and he probably sees no upside to giving sneak previews to people who would be ready to shoot it down, regardless of whether the work has merit or not.

This analogy does not wash clean for me. Here's why... Ray has at least a 20-30 song portfolio and catalog that he completed DECADES AGO, and he goes on C2C and many other radio shows and podcasts talking about the 20-30 wonderful songs he composed DECADES AGO. He tells us these are the most amazing songs that Humankind has ever heard in Human history, it seems. But it also seems too good to be true, because he only gives private auditions to those that are worthy to hear.

Of course, many Humans have heard the tall tales and Legends of the Siren Songs that can lure you in to another place and time and possibly not come back alive or in your right mind.

Instead of Oldies that are Goldies that went Platinum all we've ever heard from Ray are sound bites of the singing sounds that seem to sound of distant Sirens considering this has been happening for decades now without one single song being heard by the longing audiences of MILLIONS he broadcasts to. It's an amazing catalog of songs that Ray boldly claims he has boasting unabashedly to MILLIONS of Humans over the years, but no one in this audience of MILLIONS can hear what was sung LONG LONG AGO. These are Ancient Sounds, echos of songs, or maybe Sirens from long ago.

Ray no longer seeks to sing new songs, because he keeps telling us about all his old amazing songs! Just can't get any kind of download on it; maybe ET? Wink.

Maybe on CD? Or, cassette? No and Nope, 8 track? Damn! Reel to reel? Winky?

The Pirate Bay? The ET Porn Directory? We need ET to do this download.

 

[wwkirk]

My position is that I trust Chris when he says that Sanford has the goods. Not only that, but Sanford's accomplishments in archeology.

 

[Randall]

We don't ban people for disagreeing. We ban them when they violate our rules of the road ...

Rules of the road? You mean the ones you seem to kind of make up as you go along and in your subjective opinion aren't "disagreements" maybe because of who knows what exactly, because you don't always bother to explain ( at least that was my experience ) ... LOL.

 

[DaveM]

Clinton would be bad, why? Just wondering.

1. The Presidency shouldn't be about nepotism. I find it hard to believe that Hillary Clinton can be the best candidate the Democrats can produce. That goes for Bush as well on the Republican side.

The long and the short of it for me is..... I don't trust her. She has way too many negatives going. She has so much campaign money saved up that no one can run against that. Sorry, Bernie Sanders is not going to be the next president either.

 

[Randall]

1. The Presidency shouldn't be about nepotism. I find it hard to believe that Hillary Clinton can be the best candidate the Democrats can produce. That goes for Bush as well on the Republican side.

The long and the short of it for me is..... I don't trust her. She has way too many negatives going. She has so much campaign money saved up that no one can run against that. Sorry, Bernie Sanders is not going to be the next president either.

I don't see Hillary the way you do. She's got a lot of political experience and admire her efforts for universal medical care. The watered down version that came out of it all is disappointing but still better than nothing. I see her relationship with Bill as a plus in terms of experience, and I think that she's got more to offer than the rest. Considering the hand Obama was dealt, I think he's done as well ( or better ) than could be expected, and so far as I'm concerned, how the Republicans ganged up to oppose anything and everything he wanted to do, even if it would have been better for the people, makes me think they should be reduced to an ineffective minority. Lord help us all if Trump ever got in.

 

[Mr. Fibuli]

Ufology and DaveM really WTF?? This is not at all the thread topic. You guys are experienced posters with a lot of valuable stuff to say-come on you all I will pesonally start a "Three cheers for our awesome five year rigged election cycle" thread just to see you all not make the moderators heads' explode.
PS- I'm not reporting anyone-I just want things to be cool around here

 

[Randall]

Ufology and DaveM really WTF?? This is not at all the thread topic. You guys are experienced posters with a lot of valuable stuff to say-come on you all I will pesonally start a "Three cheers for our awesome five year rigged election cycle" thread just to see you all not make the moderators heads' explode.
PS- I'm not reporting anyone-I just want things to be cool around here

Yes we're digressing ( sorry I'll stop now ), but I don't see any animosity. Just some brief opinions, and since we're not allowed to pick on Stanford, Trump just seemed like the best alternative at the moment .

 

[DissectionStalker]

Some who have attacked us are Mufon insiders who gave away a little too much info that allowed me to figure out who they are.

This seems to be a bit of paranoia being experienced on your part.

It's easy to badger people behind a fake name, that is what cowards do. The reward for us will be the truth in all that has been discussed. We will still investigate and stay in the field willingly while others will continue to hurl insults from their couch.

I've heard Chris O'Brien make similar dismissive statements such as these. It's really condescending and ridiculous after the Roswell Slides. I'm done with believing anyone with that attitude, especially, when you avoid answering simple yes or no questions and won't answer simple questions about the camera, lens, and negative brand/type ASA rating, etc. You admitted in a post you know this information, but rather than provide that good information you make posts like the one I'm quoting here.

Almost 100% of everyone at the Paracast uses a Screen Name. There are very good reasons for doing that, so you really do shine brightly about your viewpoint when you suggest this is what cowards do! Since I'm certainly one of the more skeptical and critical about Ray's claims, are you suggesting someone like me is a coward?

My questions have never been insults. When easy to answer questions are ignored by you, and obvious disinformation is being offered by you too, imo, then I'll simply debate those points with a true believer that you are. I can understand I will be considered sarcastic and humorous about many issues regarding Ray's claims, and his supporters will think that is an insult. But, I'm only looking for the truth, and Ray's well established pattern of telling millions of people what "truths" he has, and, yet he continues withholding "his proofs" for decades does NOT justify your unsupportable positions claiming truth, insults, and cowards one whit, IMO. By proxy you are continuing to withhold easy to answer questions that have no justifiable reasons other than to behave just as Ray does too!

That's not insulting. That's calling out someone's "attention getting" techniques that are very disingenuous and insulting to the millions of people he speaks to. IMO. The same pattern is clearly revealed in this thread too. You're a perfect example.

 

[Chuckleberryfinn]

I recall hearing talk during the show or the after show (or perhaps an older interview) that when viewing Mr. Stanford's films, the application of some kind of "formula" is required. I am not sure I listened closely enough, but I had the impression that viewing the films in and of themselves in not sufficient without this "formula." Somehow this formula, so the argument runs, allowed Mr. Stanford to deduce information about how the craft generates a time-dilation effect as of general relativity. That is fascinating. Is there any chance any of you can talk about it without violating your promises to Mr. Stanford? What little bits of it can be told? Perhaps you can just explain in a little more detail how this formula functions in the context of viewing film footage. I am interested in learning more about that.

 

[DissectionStalker]

Ray Stanford joined a UFO Cult by living with Adamski for years in the 1950's. Ray sure did learn a lot about using gullible people and lying to them to believe in ET-UFO's from one of the most famous UFO cult fraud artists of the 1950's. Yes, Ray Stanford was a UFO cult member of Adamski's group by living there with him and helping as a member too!

I need to do some clarification. I do think of Adamski as a UFO cult leader. I think when Ray and his brother went to visit and stay with Adamski that they came to learn from the UFO Master Guru. At 18 years old Ray Stanford was NOT an investigator visiting Adamski. He was a naive kid that was taken-in by Adamski's book he bought years before. Ray is ON RECORD stating he BELIEVED Adamski's 1953 book! Ray was in contact with Adamski after buying his book and before traveling to California from Texas. So, Ray had a belief and following for Adamski for 2-3 years BELIEVING before going to learn from this UFO Cult leader.

Well, as often happens with naive followers of Cult Leaders there is fraud and falsehoods involved with their message. Ray still said Adamski was not a bad person, and he has sympathies for him for what he did too. AND, Ray did not investigate Adamski and discover anything! Adamski told Ray and his brother what he did. Adamski admitted and showed them how he committed the fraud. Ray continued his association with Adamski after knowing that too.

The point I'm making is Ray followed and believed in Adamski for years before the truth was revealed. In that sense I do still think of Ray following this guy Adamski -a UFO Cult leader.

How long Ray stayed with Adamski on his visits and how many times I can not say. I never heard Ray say he ended his friendship with Adamski or had some big falling out with him. Ray moved on to other UFO Cult people at some point too, so I need to retract the idea he was a "member" of Adamski's UFO Cult in some formal sense or lived with him for years. That is an exaggeration and not accurate.

 

[ChrisJohnsen]

I think that is an important clarification, DS. Whatever the initial reasons Ray went to check out Adamski as a young, naive 18yo, I don't think the association should color him for life. Many, many individuals who are "seekers" come and go from all sorts of different movements (or cults, if you prefer). I live in Southern California and I have dipped my toe into a New Agey gathering or two in my 30 years out here. None, ultimately, resonated with me to the degree that I "joined" or "believed" beyond simply being curious to learn more. Once I did I moved on, no besmirched character on my part (IMO), just something that was part of my early journey.

I'll share a tad bit more with the class as it pertains to aliens and UFOs. My "origin story," if you will. I was 21yo in February of 1987 when Whitley Strieber's "Communion" was released. That book was my entré into the field of aliens and UFOs. Without reading that book at 21, I'm probably not where I am now (thanks a lot, Strieber!). At the time, I BELIEVED the author and his claims of alien abduction. I was both terrified and enthralled. I held on to the belief that Strieber truly had those experiences until I was in my early 40s. Of course, I hadn't lived my life along that belief and I wasn't that engaged in reading about aliens and UFOs during that time, having done very little additional research about the topic, especially Strieber's stories specifically, but it remained part of the foundation of why I believed what I believed regarding what we now call the ETH. Fast forward and I get back into the subject a couple decades later and now I firmly believe that Strieber's account was simply a compelling tall tale that has grown and mutated over the last 30 years. I don't think I should be penalized for having initially believed the story. I'm thankful that I educated myself about the topic of aliens and UFOs, and along the way Strieber's accounts, to get to the more evolved belief system I have now. Which, by the way, is a much broader "something's going on but I'm not exactly sure what, why or how." Basically, the more I have read and listened the last 8-10 years, the less I seem to know. Or, the less I seem to be as sure about when I was in my 20s and 30s. Though I could say that about a lot of things, not just UFOs.

My long-winded point is, I appreciated your post clarifying your thoughts about Ray because the folly of his youth is the folly of many of us at that age. It shouldn't tar us for life and in Ray's case, I don't think it should be used to define his character or integrity as an adult.

I have my questions about Ray's material, and I'm certainly no apologist, but his Adamski past is possibly part of HIS "origin story" and shouldn't be used against him 60 years later. Cheers.

Sorry for the ramble.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Ian]

A couple of questions for Ray Stanford if he ever agrees to comes back on the show:

I have a Project Starlight International leaflet from the late 1960s/early 1970s containing two basic UFO detector (magnetometer) designs, the idea being that these were simple enough to be built at home and set up all over the country - presumably the USA - and an alert system established when any went off. At the time PSI was directed by Ray.

Assuming UFOs (whatever they are) either significantly distort the Earth's magnetic filed or generate their own and trigger such devices, what were the findings of the project? Were sufficient numbers of devices made for the project to be viable?

As technology has greatly advanced since then, is it not time for such a project to be re-established using simple but much more sensitive solid-state magnetometers (kits or ready built) and use the internet to co-ordinate the results? I suspect most alarms would be due to CME-induced magnetic storms. But despite that, some valid data may be gathered from an unknown phenomenon.

Ian