Ray Stanford has a photo of the Socorro craft & Martin Willis has seen it and is impressed but...

[mike]

The point remains if he were to tell the archeological world he had proof of a new species of 6 legged dinosaur (Hexapodus stanfosaurus) Claimed to have fossils in his possesion that proved it was a real critter, but then refused to show those fossils..........

Fossils can be faked

FAKE FOSSILS & ARTIFACTS

The paleological/archeological fraternity would not wear "people will just cry fake" as legitimate justification to make the claim but withhold the evidence.

Why should we. It would be very poor form in archeological circles, and its poor form in Ufological circles too and for the EXACT same reasons

Some will argue his archeological work adds to his credibility in this field, i would argue the opposite. That his research taken as a whole looses credibility by his behaviour in this matter.

His excuses would not be accepted in any recognised academic circles, they make no sense

 

[withoutlimits09]

The point remains if he were to tell the archeological world he had proof of a new species of 6 legged dinosaur (Hexapodus stanfosaurus) Claimed to have fossils in his possesion that proved it was a real critter, but then refused to show those fossils..........

Fossils can be faked

FAKE FOSSILS & ARTIFACTS

The paleological/archeological fraternity would not wear "people will just cry fake" as legitimate justification to make the claim but withhold the evidence.

Why should we. It would be very poor form in archeological circles, and its poor form in Ufological circles too and for the EXACT same reasons

Some will argue his archeological work adds to his credibility in this field, i would argue the opposite. That his research taken as a whole looses credibility by his behaviour in this matter.

His excuses would not be accepted in any recognised academic circles, they make no sense

Now everyone is thinking critically. Exactly!

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

Tell that to Malcom Lockery PhD who is co-authoring a paper w/ Ray about the amazing trackway (w/ 60 prints) that Ray discovered on the grounds of Goddard Space flight Center. Lockery is considered the world's foremost dinosaur track expert and he is calling the find arguably the most important trackway ever discovered. There will be major news at the official public unveiling of the 8' trackway at Goddard. Don't forget: Thousands of people walked right over it for decades without noticing the trace evidence.

 

[withoutlimits09]

Tell that to Malcom Lockery PhD who is co-authoring a paper w/ Ray about the amazing trackway (w/ 60 prints) that Ray discovered on the grounds of Goddard Space flight Center. Lockery is considered the world's foremost dinosaur track expert and he is calling the find arguably the most important trackway ever discovered. There will be major news at the official public unveiling of the 8' trackway at Goddard. Don't forget: Thousands of people walked right over it for decades without noticing the trace evidence.

I wish he would submit his UFO evidence in the same way and inside similar channels as his dino bones. When I see a Ph.D plasma physicist from MIT join Ray in co-authoring a paper about his flying saucer footage shooting a plasma beam directly at him in broad daylight, let me know.

Like myself and others have pointed out, if Ray Told Malcom Lockery, he discovered 60 prints on Goddard Space flight center, and only supplied him a sketch of what the prints looked like, and nothing more, Lockery would laugh at him. There would be no paper coming out and no major news would be made. It would be a crazy old man and his sketches. Ironically enough, that is exactly the position Ray is in with his UFO material. Rather than turn it over to academics like he has with his dino bones, he only promotes the evidence while refusing to release it to anyone of merit.

Makes you wonder how Ray can understand the process for his dino bones, and not his other "ground breaking major news making" UFO footage.

 

[kanakaris]

I believe Chris and Martin Willis on Ray's evidence. What i find troubeling is Ray's involvement in his early years in dubious undertakings with George Hunt Williamson (plaster casts from Venusians?).Or with William Pelley's Soulcraft.Or his ufo detector , his time machine...

 

[Ian]

[...]Or his ufo detector , his time machine...

Well his UFO detectors worked if:

1) UFOs generated their own magnetic field or significantly changed the earth's as they passed the detector.
2) If these magnetic influences were strong enough to disturb the clunky mechanical mechanism to sound the alarm.

Unfortunately Ray never never published the results (as far as I know) from his Project Starlight International network of these detectors. Presumably that's because there were no results - but we'll probably never know.

 

[Creepy Green Light]

I believe Chris and Martin Willis on Ray's evidence. What i find troubeling is Ray's involvement in his early years in dubious undertakings with George Hunt Williamson (plaster casts from Venusians?).Or with William Pelley's Soulcraft.Or his ufo detector , his time machine...

Don't forget George Adamski. Like I said back in the summer, would I be taken seriously if I claimed I had daylight UFO footage but....as part of my past I used to be roommates with Billy Meier, I used to be able to telepathically talk to aliens, I claimed my car was teleported over 30 miles away in the blink of an eye by a UFO entity (and for added bonus, when Ray claimed this he was going to pickup none other than Uri Gellar at the airport.), and then there is this excerpt that I stumbled across;

At one time, Stanford promoted the construction of a machine that he called "the Hilarion Accelerator." This device, he claimed, would transport a living human being back in time. He told his followers that the device would physically teleport people to the distant past. The machine was described as a metallic egg-shaped chamber (echoes of the Socorro UFO) that housed a human subject. Stanford said that when the device was charged to "around three million volts electrostatic charge" it would enhance the subject's paranormal powers. He eventually abandoned the machine. apparently concerned that it would send people to ancient times and that they would die there because he might not be able to get them back.

Now with just those few things listed, I think just about anyone would have a hard time believing that of all people (somebody with that track record) would be the person to finally have legitimate UFO footage at their home. It seems like the odds are astronomically for a "regular Joe" to have legitimate UFO footage. Then what are the odds for somebody with a wacky background such as above to have it?

 

[mike]

I wish he would submit his UFO evidence in the same way and inside similar channels as his dino bones. When I see a Ph.D plasma physicist from MIT join Ray in co-authoring a paper about his flying saucer footage shooting a plasma beam directly at him in broad daylight, let me know.

Like myself and others have pointed out, if Ray Told Malcom Lockery, he discovered 60 prints on Goddard Space flight center, and only supplied him a sketch of what the prints looked like, and nothing more, Lockery would laugh at him. There would be no paper coming out and no major news would be made. It would be a crazy old man and his sketches. Ironically enough, that is exactly the position Ray is in with his UFO material. Rather than turn it over to academics like he has with his dino bones, he only promotes the evidence while refusing to release it to anyone of merit.

Makes you wonder how Ray can understand the process for his dino bones, and not his other "ground breaking major news making" UFO footage.

That was the point i was making.

 

[mike]

Don't forget George Adamski. Like I said back in the summer, would I be taken seriously if I claimed I had daylight UFO footage but....as part of my past I used to be roommates with Billy Meier, I used to be able to telepathically talk to aliens, I claimed my car was teleported over 30 miles away in the blink of an eye by a UFO entity (and for added bonus, when Ray claimed this he was going to pickup none other than Uri Gellar at the airport.), and then there is this excerpt that I stumbled across;

At one time, Stanford promoted the construction of a machine that he called "the Hilarion Accelerator." This device, he claimed, would transport a living human being back in time. He told his followers that the device would physically teleport people to the distant past. The machine was described as a metallic egg-shaped chamber (echoes of the Socorro UFO) that housed a human subject. Stanford said that when the device was charged to "around three million volts electrostatic charge" it would enhance the subject's paranormal powers. He eventually abandoned the machine. apparently concerned that it would send people to ancient times and that they would die there because he might not be able to get them back.

Now with just those few things listed, I think just about anyone would have a hard time believing that of all people (somebody with that track record) would be the person to finally have legitimate UFO footage at their home. It seems like the odds are astronomically for a "regular Joe" to have legitimate UFO footage. Then what are the odds for somebody with a wacky background such as above to have it?

I have to say taken as a whole Rays history is pretty dubios

As for the dino ,as a rockhound/prospector myself (including fossils) i know for a fact that luck plays a large factor in these finds.

So Ray found some fossils no one else noticed, its happened before and will happen again. It doesnt imo mitigate the whole of his history which is pretty darn dodgy.

Sad to say this topic has shades of Michael Horn insisting Meier is the real deal about it

 

[Burnt State]

and who would be Micahel Horn, or is that a shifting cast role taken on by various folks depending who is scheduled to be on stage that night?

Stanford's history is highly colourful and is also Chris O'Brien's mentor which I find complicates the entire situation and makes it less easy to dismiss in its entirety. It's not entirely fair to say the whole history is dodgy, but there are definitely some healthy doses of imagination at work in many of his early experiments. Of course this discussion just spirals into hell and is in no way meant to ask Chris to defend the mentor as we've been down that road before way too many times (read the back pages and search Stanford if you don't know that history - no need to dredge it up one more painful time, please). Still, Chris is saying he's seen a definitively interesting approach in Stanford's photography.

This calls out an age old set of issues regarding Ufology, as it is a field that can not even determine consistently what actual evidence is. It has no real designated experts outside of the Invisible Colleges, who are so disparate themselves that its own history runs the risk of being written by vox populi, falling into Templar territory and going the way of other cults of belief. Who ever really talks about UFO's in the mainstream any more? Society is mostly bored with UFO's. It's much more interested in virtual reality.

Technically speaking there is no one single definitive photographic piece of evidence that "experts" could agreeably point to and say, "yes, what you are looking at hear is a ship from outer space darn it," or even an example of an unknown intelligently controlled piece of technology in our airspace. There's an interesting collection of photographic material that ranges from known and unknown hoaxes to evidence that is simply perplexing and that we have no real means of naming or saying what it is. Instead, many are able to look at some photos and say, "I just don't know what the hell that is."

Ray Stanford has taken the speculative path. He has assembled a collection of evidence that he feels is evidence and he has written a highly detailed narrative around it, and has intersected it with some landmark events in the history of Ufology. He has kept the writing and publication of this narrative under a blanket - perhaps his own invisible college. It fits neatly in the great big grey box of Ufology that is filled with many speculators who have their version of what it's all about with very little corroboration outside of an anointed few. As far as a model goes, it's not that different from others where you have to pay to see. I expect to see him on an episode of Weird or What pretty soon, simply for the sake of seeing that fossil collection of his lining every single pathway he has built inside his house.

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

...Sad to say this topic has shades of Michael Horn insisting Meier is the real deal about it

I've been called many things, but to insinuate that I'm Ray's Michael Horn is going way too far! You obviously have no clue as to who I am and what I'm truly about.

 

[Bob Watson]

Chris would it help matters in releasing the photos if you asked Ray to release them? I just want to see if there is a way they can be released in short order. I understand all depends on Ray and his comfort level...I just want an end to the speculation and needless bickering this subject has caused.

 

[Burnt State]

Not to put words anywhere but mike may have been referring to any number of figures who have stepped forward recently on the forum to make claims that then never manifested, and not necessarily you, Chris.

 

[stonehart]

I've been called many things, but to insinuate that I'm Ray's Michael Horn is going way too far! You obviously have no clue as to who I am and what I'm truly about.

Chris I trust your integrity and if you back Ray then I will give the benefit of the doubt in this matter because the fact is you are one of the few names in this field I trust to tell the truth of a given matter.

However as time passes we become more skeptical as I am sure you can understand, also Ray is not getting any younger.

Chris would it help matters in releasing the photos if you asked Ray to release them? I just want to see if there is a way they can be released in short order. I understand all depends on Ray and his comfort level...I just want an end to the speculation and needless bickering this subject has caused.

I like this idea Burnt state but in the end it is up to Ray and maybe he just needs the nudge.

 

[Wade]

I'm wondering how a perfectly legimate question by CGL about when some previously mentioned updates to a site that were promised once again degenarated into a Ray Stanford bashing conversation in which each and every one of us has to once again quantify our (non)beliefs on Mr. Stanford and his work.

 

[Wade]

This mutual affirmiation fest isn't going to achieve anything other than perhaps let off a little frustration and while i am dismissive of the argument that "Ray doesn't care what we think" and then in the next sentence suggest he doesn't release his work because of the expected blowback ( these two sentiments sort of cancel each other out don't they?) and his history does carry some baggage in that it does mix in some folkloric and time travel aspects into his work, in the end this forum obviously isn't going too shame Ray (sorry evan dando) into releasing his work.

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

FWIW: I have volunteered my time to travel out to MD to videotape/document Ray's work, (dino tracks, antiquities, meteorites, "AAOs" etc.) for posterity. Ben & Tony have already begun this process by taping his collections. I received my first batch of clips this past weekend. Ray isn't getting any younger and obviously he knows this, and he agrees that this is an important, logical way to document his many years of passionate work. I have done everything I can to get him to publish his AAO work and he has finally agreed to this approach. I don't know what else to tell you, sometimes I'm more frustrated than all of you about the pace of his work, but Ray is a detail-oriented guy, and most often, attending to details is a slow, pain-stakinging process.

 

[mike]

I've been called many things, but to insinuate that I'm Ray's Michael Horn is going way too far! You obviously have no clue as to who I am and what I'm truly about.

Let me ask you this Chris

If you didnt know Ray personally, if you only had the same data we do, including the history, do you think it likely you would be so strident in his defense.

"People will just cry fake" is a ridiculous justification for the behaviour, ie telling everyone he has the smoking gun UFO pics/films and then refusing to back that claim with the actaual evidence as claimed.

Thats not how science works

If every scientific discovery were subject to that same dynamic, we all be reading by candlelight.

I think if you did not have a personal relationship with him then this

"People will just cry fake" is a ridiculous justification for the behaviour, ie telling everyone he has the smoking gun UFO pics/films and then refusing to back that claim with the actaual evidence as claimed.

Would quite rightly elicit the same response that seems to be the consensus here.

 

[Socorro]

Hopefully Ray will give us something for our Socorro update at the 2016 Mufon Symposium. Like Chris we are frustrated yet patient. Eventually all will be reavealed in its time.

 

[stonehart]

FWIW: I have volunteered my time to travel out to MD to videotape/document Ray's work, (dino tracks, antiquities, meteorites, "AAOs" etc.) for posterity. Ben & Tony have already begun this process by taping his collections. I received my first batch of clips this past weekend. Ray isn't getting any younger and obviously he knows this, and he agrees that this is an important, logical way to document his many years of passionate work. I have done everything I can to get him to publish his AAO work and he has finally agreed to this approach. I don't know what else to tell you, sometimes I'm more frustrated than all of you about the pace of his work, but Ray is a detail-oriented guy, and most often, attending to details is a slow, pain-stakinging process.

Thanks Chris .. hey you can only do what you can do and it is up to Ray to bring the goods in the end.