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Really interesting Climate Change Data

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I have to agree with Angelo on this one. My first year physics professor was climate physicist, and we had several good discussions on climate change. The bulk of evidence, both in climatic ice core evidence, ocean warming trends form Scripps oceanographic, and a vast wealth of data confirms that the world is warming, and that humans have had an impact on this warming trend. This does not mean that humans are the only cause for the warming of our earth, but the CO2, CH4, are largely due to human production. I have no solution. If we would have acted even ten years ago, we might have made a difference, but I think we have passed the point of no return, and we must let this play out, so keep driving your 4X4’s and leave the lights on, hide your head in the sand, because I don’t think we can stop what we helped cause. The earth will survive, and humanity will too, only at a much reduced population.
 
I have to agree with Angelo on this one. My first year physics professor was climate physicist, and we had several good discussions on climate change. The bulk of evidence, both in climatic ice core evidence, ocean warming trends form Scripps oceanographic, and a vast wealth of data confirms that the world is warming, and that humans have had an impact on this warming trend. This does not mean that humans are the only cause for the warming of our earth, but the CO2, CH4, are largely due to human production. I have no solution. If we would have acted even ten years ago, we might have made a difference, but I think we have passed the point of no return, and we must let this play out, so keep driving your 4X4’s and leave the lights on, hide your head in the sand, because I don’t think we can stop what we helped cause. The earth will survive, and humanity will too, only at a much reduced population.

Could you please use Angels protocol and post links or data to support your findings? Are you one of those guys who claims global warming is causing global cooling?
If you and angel are concerned about humans destroying the earth why don't you both do the right thing? You are both carbon based CO2/methane spewing life forms, right?
 
I'm in the middle regarding this issue. I have friends who are on the extreme right and the extreme left when it comes to it and I think they're both full of shit. Both sides bring up some good points and both sides are guilty of exaggerating things. Many of the so-called solutions I've heard are ridiculous, will accomplish nothing but further crippling the American economy. And what about China, 3rd World Nations, South America, etc.? Those people care nothing about this subject. I watched a documentary recently called They Killed Sister Dorothy where people were killing each other over freaking trees and grazing land. Simply put, you try to take away their right to massacre the rain forest and they will put a bullet in your head. They have no interest in stopping what they are doing whatsoever and eventually there is going to be no rain forest at all barring military action. That part of the world is the lungs of the planet and if you can't do anything about that (And we can't. Talking does no good because those people equate asking them to spare the forest to asking them to kindly starve to death) then what are you going to accomplish by limiting emissions in the US? Nothing other than wrecking us financially. The answer to this problem is probably scientific, some artificial means of removing carbon from the air. But demanding that some of us wreck our economies in the form of limiting emissions when 90% of the people in the world are not going to play ball no matter what is not a realistic answer.
 
Who are the biggest contributors to pollution of all kinds including the production of CO2? Isn't that China? If everyone else started riding horses to work tomorrow and cooking their meals over pits in the back yard would it make any difference today or 10 years ago if China remains complacent? I'm making an argument for anything other than the reality that "the free world" can do whatever it likes however unless China gets behind it how effective could it be?
 
I'm in the middle regarding this issue. I have friends who are on the extreme right and the extreme left when it comes to it and I think they're both full of shit. Both sides bring up some good points and both sides are guilty of exaggerating things. Many of the so-called solutions I've heard are ridiculous, will accomplish nothing but further crippling the American economy. And what about China, 3rd World Nations, South America, etc.? Those people care nothing about this subject. I watched a documentary recently called They Killed Sister Dorothy where people were killing each other over freaking trees and grazing land. Simply put, you try to take away their right to massacre the rain forest and they will put a bullet in your head. They have no interest in stopping what they are doing whatsoever and eventually there is going to be no rain forest at all barring military action. That part of the world is the lungs of the planet and if you can't do anything about that (And we can't. Talking does no good because those people equate asking them to spare the forest to asking them to kindly starve to death) then what are you going to accomplish by limiting emissions in the US? Nothing other than wrecking us financially. The answer to this problem is probably scientific, some artificial means of removing carbon from the air. But demanding that some of us wreck our economies in the form of limiting emissions when 90% of the people in the world are not going to play ball no matter what is not a realistic answer.

There you go. That IS the plan. Wrecking economies. It has nothing to do with "saving the planet".
 
Could you please use Angels protocol and post links or data to support your findings? Are you one of those guys who claims global warming is causing global cooling?
If you and angel are concerned about humans destroying the earth why don't you both do the right thing? You are both carbon based CO2/methane spewing life forms, right?

Pixelsmith, he's allowed to comment and I didn't make it protocol to post links or data.

---------- Post added at 01:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:03 PM ----------

There you go. That IS the plan. Wrecking economies. It has nothing to do with "saving the planet".

Also, I am not talking about the solutions. I am just pointing out that the data supports the theory that humans are part of the cause that the world's climate is changing.
 
Maybe we should just explore some emails from these so called "scientists". We can start here I guess. These emails are in reference to the LACK of warming.
The bold emphasis is mine. There are about 1000 of these types of emails. We can discuss each one if you would like. I doubt you pro AGW people will like what you read though. You can also explore them here:East Anglia Confirmed Emails from the Climate Research Unit - Searchable or I have the original zipped file if any one here wants to read the emails or data as they came directly from the source.


From: Kevin Trenberth <trenbert@ucar.edu>
To: Michael Mann <mann@meteo.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: BBC U-turn on climate
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 08:36:36 -0600
Cc: Tom Wigley <wigley@ucar.edu>, Stephen H Schneider <shs@stanford.edu>, Myles Allen <allen@atm.ox.ac.uk>, peter stott <peter.stott@metoffice.gov.uk>, "Philip D. Jones" <p.jones@uea.ac.uk>, Benjamin Santer <santer1@llnl.gov>, Thomas R Karl <Thomas.R.Karl@noaa.gov>, Gavin Schmidt <gschmidt@giss.nasa.gov>, James Hansen <jhansen@giss.nasa.gov>, Michael Oppenheimer <omichael@Princeton.EDU>

Mike
Here are some of the issues as I see them:
Saying it is natural variability is not an explanation. What are the physical processes?
Where did the heat go? We know there is a build up of ocean heat prior to El Nino, and a
discharge (and sfc T warming) during late stages of El Nino, but is the observing system
sufficient to track it? Quite aside from the changes in the ocean, we know there are major
changes in the storm tracks and teleconnections with ENSO, and there is a LOT more rain on
land during La Nina (more drought in El Nino), so how does the albedo change overall
(changes in cloud)? At the very least the extra rain on land means a lot more heat goes
into evaporation rather than raising temperatures, and so that keeps land temps down: and
should generate cloud. But the resulting evaporative cooling means the heat goes into
atmosphere and should be radiated to space: so we should be able to track it with CERES
data. The CERES data are unfortunately wonting and so too are the cloud data. The ocean
data are also lacking although some of that may be related to the ocean current changes and
burying heat at depth where it is not picked up. If it is sequestered at depth then it
comes back to haunt us later and so we should know about it.
Kevin
Michael Mann wrote:

Kevin, that's an interesting point. As the plot from Gavin I sent shows, we can easily
account for the observed surface cooling in terms of the natural variability seen in
the CMIP3 ensemble (i.e. the observed cold dip falls well within it). So in that sense,
we can "explain" it. But this raises the interesting question, is there something going
on here w/ the energy & radiation budget which is inconsistent with the modes of
internal variability that leads to similar temporary cooling periods within the models.
I'm not sure that this has been addressed--has it?

m

On Oct 14, 2009, at 10:17 AM, Kevin Trenberth wrote:

Hi Tom
How come you do not agree with a statement that says we are no where close to knowing where
energy is going or whether clouds are changing to make the planet brighter. We are not
close to balancing the energy budget. The fact that we can not account for what is
happening in the climate system makes any consideration of geoengineering quite hopeless as
we will never be able to tell if it is successful or not! It is a travesty!

Kevin
Tom Wigley wrote:

Dear all,

At the risk of overload, here are some notes of mine on the recent

lack of warming.
I look at this in two ways. The first is to look at

the difference between the observed and expected anthropogenic trend relative to the pdf
for unforced variability. The second is to remove ENSO, volcanoes and TSI variations
from the observed data.

Both methods show that what we are seeing is not unusual. The second

method leaves a significant warming over the past decade.

These sums complement Kevin's energy work.

Kevin says ... "The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment
and it is a travesty that we can't". I do not

agree with this.

Tom.

+++++++++++++++++++++++

Kevin Trenberth wrote:

Hi all

Well I have my own article on where the heck is global warming? We are asking that here
in Boulder where we have broken records the past two days for the coldest days on
record. We had 4 inches of snow. The high the last 2 days was below 30F and the normal
is 69F, and it smashed the previous records for these days by 10F. The low was about
18F and also a record low, well below the previous record low. This is January weather
(see the Rockies baseball playoff game was canceled on saturday and then played last
night in below freezing weather).

Trenberth, K. E., 2009: An imperative for climate change planning: tracking Earth's
global energy. /Current Opinion in Environmental Sustainability/, *1*, 19-27,
doi:10.1016/j.cosust.2009.06.001. [PDF]
<[1]http://www.cgd.ucar.edu/cas/Trenberth/trenberth.papers/EnergyDiagnostics09final.pdf>
(A PDF of the published version can be obtained from the author.)

The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a
travesty that we can't.
The CERES data published in the August BAMS 09 supplement on
2008 shows there should be even more warming: but the data are surely wrong. Our
observing system is inadequate.

That said there is a LOT of nonsense about the PDO. People like CPC are tracking PDO on
a monthly basis but it is highly correlated with ENSO. Most of what they are seeing is
the change in ENSO not real PDO. It surely isn't decadal. The PDO is already reversing
with the switch to El Nino. The PDO index became positive in September for first time
since Sept 2007. see
[2]http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/GODAS/ocean_briefing_gif/global_ocean_monitorin
g_current.ppt

Kevin

Michael Mann wrote:

extremely disappointing to see something like this appear on BBC. its particularly odd,
since climate is usually Richard Black's beat at BBC (and he does a great job). from
what I can tell, this guy was formerly a weather person at the Met Office.

We may do something about this on RealClimate, but meanwhile it might be appropriate for
the Met Office to have a say about this, I might ask Richard Black what's up here?

mike

On Oct 12, 2009, at 2:32 AM, Stephen H Schneider wrote:

Hi all. Any of you want to explain decadal natural variability and signal to noise and
sampling errors to this new "IPCC Lead Author" from the BBC? As we enter an El Nino
year and as soon, as the sunspots get over their temporary--presumed--vacation worth a
few tenths of a Watt per meter squared reduced forcing, there will likely be another
dramatic upward spike like 1992-2000. I heard someone--Mike Schlesinger maybe??--was
willing to bet alot of money on it happening in next 5 years?? Meanwhile the past 10
years of global mean temperature trend stasis still saw what, 9 of the warmest in
reconstructed 1000 year record and Greenland and the sea ice of the North in big
retreat?? Some of you observational folks probably do need to straighten this out as my
student suggests below. Such "fun", Cheers, Steve

Stephen H. Schneider

Melvin and Joan Lane Professor for Interdisciplinary Environmental Studies,

Professor, Department of Biology and

Senior Fellow, Woods Institute for the Environment

Mailing address:

Yang & Yamazaki Environment & Energy Building - MC 4205

473 Via Ortega

Ph: 650 725 9978

F: 650 725 4387

Websites: climatechange.net

patientfromhell.org

----- Forwarded Message -----

From: "Narasimha D. Rao" <[3]ndrao@stanford.edu <[4]mailto:ndrao@stanford.edu>>

To: "Stephen H Schneider" <[5]shs@stanford.edu <[6]mailto:shs@stanford.edu>>

Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 10:25:53 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific

Subject: BBC U-turn on climate

Steve,

You may be aware of this already. Paul Hudson, BBC's reporter on climate change, on
Friday wrote that there's been no warming since 1998, and that pacific oscillations will
force cooling for the next 20-30 years. It is not outrageously biased in presentation as
are other skeptics' views.

[7]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8299079.stm

[8]http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100013173/the-bbcs-amazing-u-turn-on
-climate-change/

BBC has significant influence on public opinion outside the US.

Do you think this merits an op-ed response in the BBC from a scientist?

Narasimha

-------------------------------

PhD Candidate,

Emmett Interdisciplinary Program in Environment and Resources (E-IPER)

Stanford University

Tel: 415-812-7560

--

Michael E. Mann

Professor

Director, Earth System Science Center (ESSC)

Department of Meteorology Phone: (814) 863-4075

503 Walker Building FAX: (814) 865-3663

The Pennsylvania State University email: [9]mann@psu.edu <[10]mailto:mann@psu.edu>

University Park, PA 16802-5013

website: [11]http://www.meteo.psu.edu/~mann/Mann/index.html
<[12]http://www.meteo.psu.edu/%7Emann/Mann/index.html>

"Dire Predictions" book site:
[13]http://www.essc.psu.edu/essc_web/news/DirePredictions/index.html

--

****************

Kevin E. Trenberth e-mail: [14]trenbert@ucar.edu

Climate Analysis Section, [15]www.cgd.ucar.edu/cas/trenbert.html

NCAR

P. O. Box 3000, (303) 497 1318

Boulder, CO 80307 (303) 497 1333 (fax)

Street address: 1850 Table Mesa Drive, Boulder, CO 80305

--
****************
Kevin E. Trenberth e-mail: [16]trenbert@ucar.edu
Climate Analysis Section, [17]www.cgd.ucar.edu/cas/trenbert.html
NCAR
P. O. Box 3000, (303) 497 1318
Boulder, CO 80307 (303) 497 1333 (fax)
Street address: 1850 Table Mesa Drive, Boulder, CO 80305

--
Michael E. Mann
Professor
Director, Earth System Science Center (ESSC)
Department of Meteorology Phone: (814) 863-4075
503 Walker Building FAX: (814) 865-3663
The Pennsylvania State University email: [18]mann@psu.edu
University Park, PA 16802-5013
website: [19]http://www.meteo.psu.edu/~mann/Mann/index.html
"Dire Predictions" book site:
[20]http://www.essc.psu.edu/essc_web/news/DirePredictions/index.html

--
****************
Kevin E. Trenberth e-mail: [21]trenbert@ucar.edu
Climate Analysis Section, [22]www.cgd.ucar.edu/cas/trenbert.html
NCAR
P. O. Box 3000, (303) 497 1318
Boulder, CO 80307 (303) 497 1333 (fax)

Street address: 1850 Table Mesa Drive, Boulder, CO 80305

References

1. Object not found!
2. http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/GODAS/ocean_briefing_gif/global_ocean_monitoring_current.ppt
3. mailto:ndrao@stanford.edu
4. mailto:ndrao@stanford.edu
5. mailto:shs@stanford.edu
6. mailto:shs@stanford.edu
7. BBC NEWS | Science & Environment | What happened to global warming?
8. The BBC's amazing U-turn on climate change Telegraph Blogs
9. mailto:mann@psu.edu
10. mailto:mann@psu.edu
11. http://www.meteo.psu.edu/~mann/Mann/index.html
12. http://www.meteo.psu.edu/%7Emann/Mann/index.html
13. ESSC: Earth System Science Center - News and Events
14. mailto:trenbert@ucar.edu
15. CGD's Climate Analysis Section (CAS)
16. mailto:trenbert@ucar.edu
17. CGD's Climate Analysis Section (CAS)
18. mailto:mann@psu.edu
19. http://www.meteo.psu.edu/%7Emann/Mann/index.html
20. ESSC: Earth System Science Center - News and Events
21. mailto:trenbert@ucar.edu
22. CGD's Climate Analysis Section (CAS)

---------- Post added at 06:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:31 PM ----------

another gem...


From: gjjenkins@meto.gov.uk
To: p.jones@uea.ac.uk, deparker@meadow.meto.govt.uk
Subject: 1996 global temperatures
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 11:23 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: llivingston@meadow.meto.govt.uk, djcarson@meadow.meto.govt.uk, ckfolland@meadow.meto.govt.uk


Phil

Remember all the fun we had last year over 1995 global temperatures,
with early release of information (via Oz), "inventing" the December
monthly value, letters to Nature etc etc?


I think we should have a cunning plan about what to do this year,
simply to avoid a lot of wasted time.

I have been discussing with David P and suggest the following:

1. By 20 Dec we will have land and sea data up to Nov

2. David (?) computes the December land anomaly based on 500hPa
heights up to 20 Dec.

3. We assume that Dec SST anomaly is the same as Nov

4. We can therefore give a good estimate of 1996 global temps by 20
Dec

5. We feed this selectively to Nick Nuttall (who has had this in the
past and seems now to expect special treatment) so that he can write
an article for the silly season. We could also give this to Neville
Nicholls??

6. We explain that data is provisional and how the data has been
created so early (ie the estimate for Dec) and also

7. We explain why the globe is 0.23k (or whatever the final figure is)
cooler than 95 (NAO reversal, slight La Nina). Also that global annual
avg is only accuirate to a few hundredths of a degree (we said this
last year - can we be more exact, eg PS/MS 0.05K or is this to big??)

8. FROM NOW ON WE ANSWER NO MORE ENQUIRIES ABOUT 1996 GLOBAL TEMPS BUT
EXPLAIN THAT IT WILL BE RELEASED IN JANUARY.


9. We relesae the final estimate on 20 Jan, with a joint UEA/MetO
press release. It may not evoke any interest by then.

10. For questions after the release to Nuttall, (I late Dec, early
Jan) we give the same answer as we gave him.

Are you happy with this, or can you suggest something better (ie
simpler)? I know it sound a bit cloak-and-dagger but its just meant to
save time in the long run.


Im copying this to DEP and CKF also for comments.

Cheers

Geoff
 
Yes, of course, the emails that don't exactly change any of the data. What interesting is that those email just prove that there is no conspiracy here. The data still stands and there is prof that humans have had an effect on the climate.

I still don't understand how anyone can argue against facts. This is the same type of argument that anti-vaxxers have. Clinging to one thing while ignoring everything else.
These emails don't point to any data that contradicts what the consensus is.

---------- Post added at 02:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:42 PM ----------

I love how these emails are given with no context.
I guess when there's no data to support your point of view, you need to find something.
 
Yes, of course, the emails that don't exactly change any of the data. What interesting is that those email just prove that there is no conspiracy here. The data still stands and there is prof that humans have had an effect on the climate.

I still don't understand how anyone can argue against facts. This is the same type of argument that anti-vaxxers have. Clinging to one thing while ignoring everything else.
These emails don't point to any data that contradicts what the consensus is.

---------- Post added at 02:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:42 PM ----------

I love how these emails are given with no context.
I guess when there's no data to support your point of view, you need to find something.

I offered you the complete zipped file directly from CRU. Within the emails AND data there is plenty of damning information. Do you really want me to post over 1000 emails or just post a few with the additional link to a searchable data base?
 
I offered you the complete zipped file directly from CRU. Within the emails AND data there is plenty of damning information. Do you really want me to post over 1000 emails or just post a few with the additional link to a searchable data base?

No no, there's no need to do that. Those emails do not change facts.
 
In house fighting going on as well. There are a few honest scientists sucking the funding teat after all.


From: Tom Wigley <wigley@meeker.ucar.edu>
To: jan.goudriaan@staff.tpe.wau.nl, grassl_h@gateway.wmo.ch, Klaus Hasselmann <klaus.hasselmann@dkrz.de>, Jill Jaeger <jaeger@iiasa.ac.at>, rector@iss.nl, oriordan@enviro.uct.ac.za, uctpa84@ucl.ac.uk, john@pik-potsdam.de, mparry@geog.ucl.ac.uk, pier.vellinga@ivm.vu.nlam.de
Subject: Re: ATTENTION. Invitation to influence Kyoto.
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:52:09 -0700 (MST)
Reply-to: Tom Wigley <wigley@meeker.ucar.edu>
Cc: Mike Hulme <m.hulme@uea.ac.uk>, t.mitchell@uea.ac.uk

Dear Eleven,

I was very disturbed by your recent letter, and your attempt to get
others to endorse it. Not only do I disagree with the content of
this letter, but I also believe that you have severely distorted the
IPCC "view" when you say that "the latest IPCC assessment makes a
convincing economic case for immediate control of emissions." In contrast
to the one-sided opinion expressed in your letter, IPCC WGIII SAR and TP3
review the literature and the issues in a balanced way presenting
arguments in support of both "immediate control" and the spectrum of more
cost-effective options. It is not IPCC's role to make "convincing cases"
for any particular policy option; nor does it. However, most IPCC readers
would draw the conclusion that the balance of economic evidence favors the
emissions trajectories given in the WRE paper. This is contrary to your
statement.

This is a complex issue, and your misrepresentation of it does you a
dis-service. To someone like me, who knows the science, it is
apparent that you are presenting a personal view, not an informed,
balanced scientific assessment. What is unfortunate is that this will not
be apparent to the vast majority of scientists you have contacted. In
issues like this, scientists have an added responsibility to keep their
personal views separate from the science, and to make it clear to others
when they diverge from the objectivity they (hopefully) adhere to in their
scientific research. I think you have failed to do this.

Your approach of trying to gain scientific credibility for your personal
views by asking people to endorse your letter is reprehensible. No
scientist who wishes to maintain respect in the community should ever
endorse any statement unless they have examined the issue fully
themselves. You are asking people to prostitute themselves by doing just
this! I fear that some will endorse your letter, in the mistaken belief
that you are making a balanced and knowledgeable assessment of the science
-- when, in fact, you are presenting a flawed view that neither accords
with IPCC nor with the bulk of the scientific and economic literature on
the subject.

Let me remind you of the science. The issue you address is one of the
timing of emissions reductions below BAU. Note that this is not the same
as the timing of action -- and note that your letter categorically
addresses the former rather than the latter issue. Emissions reduction
timing is epitomized by the differences between the Sxxx and WRExxx
pathways towards CO2 concentration stabilization. It has been clearly
demonstrated in the literature that the mitigation costs of following an
Sxxx pathway are up to five times the cost of following an equivalent
WRExxx pathway. It has also been shown that there is likely to be an
equal or greater cost differential for non-Annex I countries, and that the
economic burden in Annex I countries would fall disproportionately on
poorer people.

Furthermore, since there has been no credible analysis of the benefits
(averted impacts) side of the equation, it is impossible to assess fully
the benefits differential between the Sxxx and WRExxx stabilization
profiles. Indeed, uncertainties in predicting the regional details of
future climate change that would arise from following these pathways, and
the even greater uncertainties that attend any assessment of the impacts
of such climate changes, preclude any credible assessment of the relative
benefits. As shown in the WRE paper (Nature v. 379, pp. 240-243), the
differentials at the global-mean level are so small, at most a few tenths
of a degree Celsius and a few cm in sea level rise and declining to
minuscule amounts as the pathways approach the SAME target, that it is
unlikely that an analysis of future climate data could even distinguish
between the pathways. Certainly, given the much larger noise at the
regional level, and noting that even the absolute changes in many
variables at the regional level remain within the noise out to 2030 or
later, the two pathways would certainly be indistinguishable at the
regional level until well into the 21st century.

The crux of this issue is developing policies for controlling greenhouse
gas emissions where the reductions relative to BAU are neither too much,
too soon (which could cause serious economic hardship to those who are
most vulnerable, poor people and poor countries) nor too little, too late
(which could lead to future impacts that would be bad for future
generations of the same groups). Our ability to quantify the economic
consequences of "too much, too soon" is far better than our ability to
quantify the impacts that might arise from "too little, too late" -- to
the extent that we cannot even define what this means! You appear to be
putting too much weight on the highly uncertain impacts side of the
equation. Worse than this, you have not even explained what the issues
are. In my judgment, you are behaving in an irresponsible way that does
you little credit. Furthermore, you have compounded your sin by actually
putting a lie into the mouths of innocents ("after carefully examining the
question of timing of emissions reductions, we find the arguments against
postponement to be more compelling"). People who endorse your letter will
NOT have "carefully examined" the issue.

When scientists color the science with their own PERSONAL views or make
categorical statements without presenting the evidence for such
statements, they have a clear responsibility to state that that is what
they are doing. You have failed to do so. Indeed, what you are doing is,
in my view, a form of dishonesty more subtle but no less egregious than
the statements made by the greenhouse skeptics, Michaels, Singer et al. I
find this extremely disturbing.

Tom Wigley


On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Tim Mitchell wrote:

> Reference: Statement of European Climate Scientists on Actions to Protect
> Global Climate
>
> Dear Colleague,
>
> Attached at the end of this email is a Statement, the purpose of which is
> to bolster or increase governmental and public support for controls of
> emissions of greenhouse gases in European and other industrialised
> countries in the negotiations during the Kyoto Climate Conference in
> December 1997. The Statement was drafted by a number of prominent European
> scientists concerned with the climate issue, 11 of whom are listed after
> the Statement and who are acting as formal sponsors of the Statement.
>
> ***** The 11 formal sponsors are: *****
>
> Jan Goudriaan Hartmut Grassl Klaus Hasselmann Jill J‰ger
> Hans Opschoor Tim O'Riordan Martin Parry David Pearce
> Hans-Joachim Schellnhuber Wolfgang Seiler Pier Vellinga
>
> After endorsements from many hundreds of other European climate-related
> scientists are collected (and we hope that you agree to be one of these), the
> Statement will be brought to the attention of key decision-makers (e.g. EU
> Kyoto negotiaters and Environment Ministers) and other opinion-makers in
> Europe (e.g. editorial boards of newspapers) during the week beginning 24th
> November. The UK and other European WWF offices have agreed to assist in
> this activity, although the preparation of the Statement itself has in no
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> Statement of European Climate Scientists on Actions to Protect Global Climate
> =============================================================================
>
> In 1992, the nations of the world took a significant step to protect global
> climate by signing the Framework Convention on Climate Change. This year,
> at the coming Climate Summit in Kyoto*, they have the chance to take
> another important step. It is our belief that the nations of the world
> should agree to substantive action for controlling the growth of greenhouse
> gas emissions.
>
> Our opinion is bolstered by the latest assessment of scientific knowledge
> carried out by the Inter-governmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). The
> IPCC reported that "the balance of evidence suggests a discernible human
> influence on global climate". They also gave examples of observed climate
> change up to now, including:
>
> ∑ Global mean surface air temperature has increased by between 0.3 to 0.6
> degrees Celsius since the late 19th century, and recent years have been the
> warmest since 1860.
> ∑ Global sea level has risen between 10 and 25 centimeters over the past
> 100 years.
>
> Based on estimates from computer models, the IPCC also maintained that
> humanity will have a continuing and cumulative effect on climate in the
> future. Future society may find that some climate impacts are positive, as
> in the possible increase in rainfall and crop yield in some dry regions;
> and society may be able to adapt to some impacts, such as by building dikes
> against rising sea level. But many, if not most, climate impacts will
> increase risks to society and nature, and will be irreversible on the human
> time scale. Among the possible changes are further increases in sea level,
> the transformation of forest and other ecosystems, modifications of crop
> yield, and shifts in the geographic range of pests and pathogens. It is
> also possible that infrequent but disastrous events, such as droughts and
> floods, could occur more often in some regions. At particular risk are
> people living on arid or semi-arid land, in low-lying coastal areas and
> islands, in water-limited or flood-prone regions, or in mountainous
> regions. The risk to nature will be significant in the many areas where
> ecosystems cannot quickly adapt to changing climate, or where they are
> already under stress from environmental pollution or other factors.
>
> Because of these risks, we consider it important for nations to set limits
> on the increase of global temperature due to human interference with the
> climate system. We recommend that European and other industrialized nations
> use such long-term climate protection goals as a guide to determining
> short-term emission targets. This approach has been adopted, for example,
> by the European Union and the Alliance of Small Island States.
>
> Some may say that action to control emissions should be postponed because
> of the scientific uncertainties of climate change and its impact. Our view
> is that the risks and irreversibility of many climate impacts require
> "precautionary measures to anticipate, prevent, or minimize the causes of
> climate change", as stated in the Framework Convention on Climate Change.
>
> We also acknowledge that economic arguments have been put forward for
> postponing the control of emissions in Europe and elsewhere. However, after
> carefully examining the question of timing of emission reductions, we find
> the arguments against postponement to be more compelling. First, postponing
> action could shift an unfair burden for more severe reductions of emissions
> onto future generations. Second, it will lead to a greater accumulation of
> greenhouse gases in the atmosphere and hence make it more difficult to
> prevent future climate change when action is finally taken. Third, the
> latest IPCC assessment makes a convincing economic case for immediate
> control of emissions.
>
> Rather than delay, we strongly urge governments in Europe and other
> industrialized countries to agree to control greenhouse emissions as part
> of a Kyoto agreement. Some controls can be achieved by reducing fossil fuel
> use at little or no net cost through accelerated improvements in the
> efficiency of energy systems, the faster introduction of renewable energy
> sources, and the reduction of subsidies for fossil fuel use. Moreover,
> reducing the use of fossil fuels will also reduce local and regional air
> pollution, and their related impacts on human health and ecosystems.
>
> We believe that the European Union (EU) proposal is consistent with long
> term climate protection. This proposal would reduce key greenhouse gas
> emissions by 15% from industrialized countries (so-called Annex I
> countries) by the year 2010 (relative to year 1990). Although stronger
> emission reductions will be needed in the future, we see the EU, or
> similar, goal as a positive first step "to prevent dangerous anthropogenic
> interference with the climate system" and to lessen risks to society and
> nature. Such substantive action is needed now.
>
> *Third Conference of the Parties to the Framework Convention on Climate
> Change, Kyoto, Japan, December, 1997.
>
> Signed:
>
> Jan Goudriaan Hartmut Grassl Klaus Hasselmann
> Jill J‰ger Hans Opschoor Tim O'Riordan
> Martin Parry David Pearce Hans-Joachim Schellnhuber
> Wolfgang Seiler Pier Vellinga
 
So that email just re-enforces what I'm saying. I am NOT talking about the economics of any solutions.
I am saying that the scientific facts show that humans are responsible for climate change. The problem is that those that oppose some of the proposed solutions seem to want to ignore the data, or discredit it.
 
Thank you for stating that the emails do not change facts! The FACT here is that they corrupted the peer review process and also submitted NON peer review info to a journal.

From: Phil Jones <p.jones@uea.ac.uk>
To: "Michael E. Mann" <mann@virginia.edu>
Subject: HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL
Date: Thu Jul 8 16:30:16 2004

Mike,
Only have it in the pdf form. FYI ONLY - don't pass on. Relevant paras are the last
2 in section 4 on p13. As I said it is worded carefully due to Adrian knowing Eugenia
for years. He knows the're wrong, but he succumbed to her almost pleading with him
to tone it down as it might affect her proposals in the future !
I didn't say any of this, so be careful how you use it - if at all. Keep quiet also
that you have the pdf.

The attachment is a very good paper - I've been pushing Adrian over the last weeks
to get it submitted to JGR or J. Climate. The main results are great for CRU and also
for ERA-40. The basic message is clear - you have to put enough surface and sonde
obs into a model to produce Reanalyses. The jumps when the data input change stand
out so clearly. NCEP does many odd things also around sea ice and over snow and ice.
The other paper by MM is just garbage - as you knew. De Freitas again. Pielke is also
losing all credibility as well by replying to the mad Finn as well - frequently as I see
it.
I can't see either of these papers being in the next IPCC report. Kevin and I will keep
them
out somehow - even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is !

Cheers
Phil
Mike,
For your interest, there is an ECMWF ERA-40 Report coming out soon, which
shows that Kalnay and Cai are wrong. It isn't that strongly worded as the first author
is a personal friend of Eugenia. The result is rather hidden in the middle of the report.
It isn't peer review, but a slimmed down version will go to a journal. KC are wrong
because
the difference between NCEP and real surface temps (CRU) over eastern N. America doesn't
happen with ERA-40. ERA-40 assimilates surface temps (which NCEP didn't) and doing
this makes the agreement with CRU better. Also ERA-40's trends in the lower atmosphere
are all physically consistent where NCEP's are not - over eastern US.

I can send if you want, but it won't be out as a report for a couple of months.
Cheers
Phil

Prof. Phil Jones
Climatic Research Unit Telephone +44 (0) 1603 592090
School of Environmental Sciences Fax +44 (0) 1603 507784
University of East Anglia
Norwich Email p.jones@uea.ac.uk
NR4 7TJ
UK
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
No no, there's no need to do that. Those emails do not change facts.

The emails don't change the fact that there is some data in support of human influenced global warming but they do demonstrate that there are people on that side of the fence intentionally distorting and exaggerating data to further weird political agendas that they have.

But anyway, in 500 million to a billion years our sun is going to get 10% hotter which will cause all water on Earth to be boiled away and life will be extinguished (Quite a few people believe we have 4-5 billion years left here but that is inaccurate. Life on this planet will be gone LONG before our star dies). Now there's some global warming for ya'.
 
The emails don't change the fact that there is some data in support of human influenced global warming but they do demonstrate that there are people on that side of the fence intentionally distorting and exaggerating data to further weird political agendas that they have.

That is true, and we see that all the time. It's really unfortunate. It still doesn't change the fact that humans are responsible for global climate change.
 
That is true, and we see that all the time. It's really unfortunate. It still doesn't change the fact that humans are responsible for global climate change.

I think your last sentence is overstating things. Yes, humans are contributing but the cycles of nature play a huge role in it. The Earth's history is littered with episodes of dramatic climate change (None of which humanity had anything to do with) and life survived it every time. That's not to say I'm against trying to control it. I simply don't support radical ideas that will wreck western economies while barely making a dent in the alleged problem. We're already struggling to compete with the likes of China, India, Mexico, etc. We don't need this on our plates as well. I'm all for scientific solutions but attempting to control emissions in westernized countries will yield barely a blip of difference with the environment while causing significant financial havoc. And the South Americas and Chinas of the world won't play ball anyway, giving them an even greater advantage over us. Because of political know-it-alls in a few years I'm not going to be able to buy standard lightbulbs anymore. Instead I'll have to buy those fancy ones that cost several times more. But guess what; if ya' break one of those things you've got a hazard on your hands because they've got mercury in them. I fail to see how that is environmentally more safe than the traditional lightbulb but I guess ya' gotta' be a leftist politician to fully grasp these things.
 
I think your last sentence is overstating things. Yes, humans are contributing but the cycles of nature play a huge role in it. The Earth's history is littered with episodes of dramatic climate change (None of which humanity had anything to do with) and life survived it every time. That's not to say I'm against trying to control it. I simply don't support radical ideas that will wreck western economies while barely making a dent in the alleged problem. We're already struggling to compete with the likes of China, India, Mexico, etc. We don't need this on our plates as well. I'm all for scientific solutions but attempting to control emissions in westernized countries will yield barely a blip of difference with the environment while causing significant financial havoc. And the South Americas and Chinas of the world won't play ball anyway, giving them an even greater advantage over us. Because of political know-it-alls in a few years I'm not going to be able to buy standard lightbulbs anymore. Instead I'll have to buy those fancy ones that cost several times more. But guess what; if ya' break one of those things you've got a hazard on your hands because they've got mercury in them. I fail to see how that is environmentally more safe than the traditional lightbulb but I guess ya' gotta' be a leftist politician to fully grasp these things.

I don't like those light bulbs at all.
Again though, I'm not talking about the politics or the solutions.
 
Because of political know-it-alls in a few years I'm not going to be able to buy standard lightbulbs anymore. Instead I'll have to buy those fancy ones that cost several times more. But guess what; if ya' break one of those things you've got a hazard on your hands because they've got mercury in them. I fail to see how that is environmentally more safe than the traditional lightbulb but I guess ya' gotta' be a leftist politician to fully grasp these things.

you can thank a eugenics based political agenda for stuff like that.
 
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