Refuting the ETH: Angels/Aliens/Archetypes

[boomerang]

Another eye-0pener for me was Jesse Marcel's autobiography: 'The Roswell Legacy". As mythologically tiresome as Roswell has become over the decades, I find Jesse Marcel Jr.'s story and his credibility difficult to simply dismiss.

Perhaps the most jarring of Marcel's admissions can be found in Chapter 6, "A Government Official's Admission". In it, Marcel describes a one-on-one meeting (by invitation) in a secure underground room of the nation's Capitol Building with an otherwise nondescript official. He informed Marcel that the UFO and much of its publicly known history is accurate and in every sense real. At some point in this meeting, Marcel mentioned that he and his family had been mildly harassed by mysterious telephone calls. According to Marcel, the official jotted down a phone number and told him to call it if he ever encountered such threats in the future.

This is beyond strange. But we are, yet again, left with the difficult choice of accepting the pervasive mystery surrounding this subject, or discounting someone with very solid credentials who seemed to be making public his extraordinary experiences, as so many have done, toward their life's end.

 

[Trajanus]

Another eye-0pener for me was Jesse Marcel's autobiography: 'The Roswell Legacy". As mythologically tiresome as Roswell has become over the decades, I find Jesse Marcel Jr.'s story and his credibility difficult to simply dismiss.
someone with very solid credentials

Sure he's credible. But Marcel sr had the credentials at the relevant time--base intel officer. There are skeptics who'd have us believe he was senile by 1978 and was coached by Friedman to say what he did. Hogwash.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Oh sure, the college students, none of whom actually came forward or were even named. Or maybe you refer to Klass's claims, refuted by KDR. Socorro was real and shows it isn't "just in our heads."



Credible witnesses such as Marcel jr, reported this.

Again, this all comes down to someone's word. Maybe they aren't lying, but there is nothing that actually proves anything. We need to establish that.

 

[Randall]

The post you linked to explains in detail. To snippet one sentence makes your questions seem reasonable above, but I've posted quite a bit that you should not need to ask such things. You swim in a fishbowl with ET-UFO's believing you have proof, and our entire media industry with the MIC since 1947 put you there along with the hoaxing, imo. Yes, in many ways this is far more powerful than religion, because your faith allows you to find "the proof" thanks to the fishbowl you grew-up in. You followed the bait, the bread crumbs, and they got you hook line and sinker.

The reason I definitely believe this, is you will NOT admit the possibility you might be wrong. You do not maintain the strong possibility that there is no such thing as ET-UFO's flying around here. You are #1 just as Constance is #1 in the religious fervor of firm belief well beyond faith. For you ET-UFO's here on Spaceship Earth is reality. The fishbowl definitely supports you! They want you! You are part of their Brain Trust to work their agendas. There are many agendas too, so you can be manipulated for many reasons. IMO.

Still not 100% sure about what you are getting at or who you are referring to. Can you please copy the link you meant when you said, "The post you linked to explains in detail." to your next post, I don't know which one you are talking about. Also please clarify whether the "you" you are referring to is meant in the general sense, e.g. "You ( the general public ) swim in a fishbowl ... ", or if you are referring to me personally. Then we can take it one issue at a time.

 

[DissectionStalker]

Sure he's credible. But Marcel sr had the credentials at the relevant time--base intel officer. There are skeptics who'd have us believe he was senile by 1978 and was coached by Friedman to say what he did. Hogwash.

Marcel is definitely NOT credible, period, for the very reason you list above AND the reporting of what he said is also different to multiple sources too! He was never told the truth about the 1947 UFO Wave, imo. Marcel was just a pawn that could be sacrificed for the following reasons.

Jesse's most excellent adventure

Being the base Intelligence officer means he has lifetime security agreements that he must keep. Meaning, any "truth" you believe he gave is just disinformation for the stupid ass Moore Berliz book which was more disinformation thanks to a number of Air Force OSI people running Moore as a disinformation agent. But 'you' somehow believe Stanton was owed the truth by any of these people? Outrageous, really, to not understand just how gullible people can be and what LIES this is all based on.

Neither you, nor Stanton, nor the readership of Berliz's book and those that followed were ever owed the truth about any of it. It is almost certain Marcel himself was NEVER told the truth about "The Wave". He's just a sacrificial pawn, period. You obviously do NOT understand intelligence operations and need to know, imo.

There is ample proof that the ongoing UFO Wave of 1947 was an organized propaganda effort by Need to Know Intelligence Operatives in an isolated compartmentalized operation within some intelligence agency in the US government. [See below in this post.]

WTF, man, the US Government ran the greatest propaganda machine in WWII with rubber inflatable tanks, planes, etc. making the German military believe whole army divisions were where they were not. And you think they could not fly fake or real UFO's for some reason? BS. I don't claim to know exactly why the US Need to Know people ran this Deception Campaign, but I believe it has to do with secret weapons development the Nazis had done with UFO and rocket development. It is a FACT secret weapons were removed from Germany ASAP and brought to the USA to continue R&D using captured German scientists and engineers -for example Project Paperclip. Also, we were already in a Cold War with the Russians, so this could have been news reporting to disinfo the Russians. Much of it could simply be Media Hysteria too!

One thing is for certain: Stanton NEVER had a Need to Know, and the Burn Bags took care of the details about this 1947 UFO Wave 30 years BEFORE Stanton got jack crap nothing but disinformation.

See below...I don't think this guy was joking at all. He gave waayyy too detailed information to be a joke. This is WHY I know Roswell is part of some MILITARY UFO EARTH BASED secret program. We do NOT have a need to know! That's how the game is played. Arnold KNEW he was bugged in WA, and he starts the propaganda catching wild fire with Fate magazine too! What an amazing media campaign.

Also, the very end of the article says these sightings were happening for 10 days, so that predates Roswell too.

How many ET UFO Investigators SERIOUSLY followed-up on any of these reports? There was enough information there to track down some relatives, etc. IMO.

PROJECT 1947 - UFO REPORTS 1947

I thank Sentry for finding that link. His blog is blueblurrylines.com

Roswell Morning Dispatch, - July 8, 1947

Report Flying Disk Found

By The Associated Press

Two flying disks were reported found in Texas and at least one is being investigated by military officials as the total number of Texans claiming to have seen the mysterious objects passed the 50 mark yesterday.

The disks were reported found on a beach near Trinity Bay, near Houston, and near Hillsboro.

The Houston Chronicle said a great deal of mystery surrounded the one found near there by Norman Hargrave, a jeweler, Sunday. He first reported that he had found the aluminum disk floating near the beach while he and his wife were walking. He described it minutely, even giving an inscription he said it carried.

Today he said it was all a joke, but the Chronicle, after extensive checking, said "there are some mysterious facts contained in his (Hargrave's) first report that lend credence to the tale."

Hargrave first said the disk bore this wording: "Military secret of the United States of America. Army Air Forces M4339658. Anyone damaging or revealing description or whereabouts of this missile subject to prosecution by the U.S. government. Call collect at once, LD446, Army Air Forces Denot, Spokane, Wash." He said the words "non-explosive" also were carried.

It was recalled that the initial reports of flying saucers or disks originated in the Spokane area.

The Chronicle, meanwhile, telephoned Spokane, and said it "brought interest" on the part of the commanding officer, but he would not confirm or deny that the missile may have carried the message. Later he referred Houston to Wright Field, Ohio, but the commanding officer there was out of town.

In Houston, Col. R. W. Warren, commanding officer of Ellington Field, said he had been instructed by Washington to investigate.

Houston police would not say if they had the missile.

The second flying disks (sic) was reported found by Bob Scott, a farmer living two and a half miles east of Hillsboro. He said the disk fell on his place Friday, and that it resembled a saucer. He said it was so bright he could not look at it very long.

He said he was afraid people might believe he was "going to extremes in imagining things" and he told no one but his family until yesterday.

Then he notified O.F. Kissick and Joe Gerick, Hillsboro, who went to the field and investigated. Most of it had melted, they said. Gerick said one piece looked like tin foil, but when he picked it up, it appeared to be celluloid.

Another development in Houston was a suggestion by Charles Odom, 23, air force captain in the last war, that the flying disks might be "crystal balls" similar to those he said were used by the Nazis.

He said these balls were electronically operated, and while in midair would send back to a radar screen on the ground the altitude, speed and other data of bombers it approached.

 

[Burnt State]

I'm a skeptical believer...or I believe in skepticism, I can't quite make up my mind.

I liked the phrase mentioned on RM with Smiles Lewis recently, "a sympathetic skeptic." That leaves a lot of room to be critical but still appreciative of different aspects of odd phenomenon. Some sympathies may lie with the witness or even with the desire for the subject matter to be true despite the lack of concrete and unwavering evidence, or an inability to determine a causal agent for the strange experiences people have, but you can acknowledge that weird things do happen.

 

[DissectionStalker]

Perhaps the most jarring of Marcel's admissions can be found in Chapter 6, "A Government Official's Admission". In it, Marcel describes a one-on-one meeting (by invitation) in a secure underground room of the nation's Capitol Building with an otherwise nondescript official. He informed Marcel that the UFO and much of its publicly known history is accurate and in every sense real.

Oh man, IF, I say again IF, this is true, then the PTB assholes flushed this very foolish PAWN down their toilet. Frack off. Don't even think for a second that no UFO cult freaks could do this too. This is the forerunner of EXACTLY what cult hoaxers will be doing now that these people make hundreds of BILLIONS of dollars off this mythology every year now. The MIC-Entertainment Matrix is REAL, and you're jacked right into it already!

The mythology continues. Tweak, nudge, the fishbowl is real, they're mind phucking you into the future for whatever psycho-sheit they have planned for you! Thank those ET-Humans cause there is NO ET doing it. Please note that Humans do all of this BS. Why?

First, follow the money. Next, follow the MIC agenda. Finally, follow the mythology to understand "the controls". The PTB know the Mythology history, and The Storytellers have you lapping and licking their liquid dream poisons right out of their hands if you think this is ET.

 

[Randall]

Marcel is definitely NOT credible, period ... ( The Rest Here )

One of the things I learned during my time over on the old JREF board is to avoid absolutist statements about complex issues when the variables aren't all known or quantifiable. It's far more reasonable to assume that the accuracy of the information varies, which means that writing off everything because of some discrepancy is rarely a reasonable position to take.

 

[DissectionStalker]

One of the things I learned during my time over on the old JREF board is to avoid absolutist statements. It's far more reasonable to assume that the accuracy of the information varies, which means that writing off everything because of some discrepancy is rarely a reasonable position to take.

Oh no, I've given plenty of reasons to not believe Marcel. This is not "absolutist" based on one FACT. This is Need to Know. This is memory issues 30+ years later. This is National Security Oaths. Marcel is an unwitting sacrificial pawn. This is Moore being an OSI operative and disinformation agent willingly, because his EGO was so huge he thought he was going to get the truth. As Doty said, AF-OSI knows how to use these people, and it is BS to blame Doty for this sheit. He was just A PAWN in the chain of command too, though he may have been driven crazy with ET too. Stanton was checkmated for the FOOL, imo, A PAWN used to fuel this ET mythology.

At least Moore had the courage to admit at least partially how he was played, but Stanton just kept making money off this ET deal. The ET-PTB loves him for what he does! Disinformation for FREE. LOL.

 

[Randall]

Oh no, I've given plenty of reasons to not believe Marcel ...

I'm not suggesting that you should believe what others have reported that Marcel has said, or what Marcel may have said during interviews or whatever the case may be. What I'm saying is that none of us actually know what really happened. The only thing that seems reasonable to believe is that there was a Jesse Marcel, who did have some firsthand knowledge of the events we call the Roswell Incident, an incident that did appear to involve the recovery of some materials that were studied by the Air Force, and initially reported to have been a flying disk. A critical analysis of all that Marcel has said and/or is alleged to have said appears to have revealed some inconsistencies in the storyline, but those inconsistencies aren't sufficient to dismiss everything. To do so is making a leap in logic that is as unsupported as those who choose to believe everything that has been reported.

 

[boomerang]

Marcel is definitely NOT credible, period, for the very reason you list above AND the reporting of what he said is also different to multiple sources too! He was never told the truth about the 1947 UFO Wave, imo. Marcel was just a pawn that could be sacrificed for the following reasons.

It's a real Hall Of Mirrors, isn't it? I would never suggest the Marcels could not have been used as pawns in "The Great Game". But even their being so would seem to raise the stakes of whatever the game is, by orders of magnitude. And again, I'm referring to statements made by Marcel Jr. near the end of his life describing a meeting in Washington which would be, in and of itself, high strangeness. This regardless of whether he was told the truth.

 

[DissectionStalker]

I know Marcel Jr.'s daughter believes her father [a doctor, now deceased] was sincere, so I have to assume he got that belief from his dad too. His dad was NEVER Need to Know about the '47 Wave, imo, so he was a pawn. The very best pawns believe what they think they know. It is a sincere LIE in that sense.

One of my theories is this was a PSYOPS, The '47 Wave, to perhaps create another perceived enemy. ET. Massive deception and propaganda worked in WWII, and so it shall always be by the nukey PTB. The power of this ET Mythology was PROVEN to be so powerful that all kinds of MIC and intelligence games have been perpetrated on the Americans and whomever else was targeted too. By the 1950's this ET-UFO Mythology caught wildfire with SyFy movies, radio, and TV that there was no stopping this to become more powerful than most religions in all of Human history. This gave the MIC and Entertainment industries TRILLIONS of everlasting $ reasons to work together to literally shape ALL of Humankind starting with America first.

The Hoaxing technology and real Human UFO's are so advanced now that ET is a reality despite their non-existence here. Humans are nothing but religious in their belief systems, imo, so this is an ET Matrix we live within now. Why do the PTB want us under this kind of religious SyFy control??? EASY... to control the destiny of Humankind. This is EXACTLY what the PTB have been doing ALWAYS throughout history, and so it is now under this Mythology of control too.

It's actually far better than traditional religious controls, because it's now done with mass media entertainment that is vastly more interesting to watch in HD. This is FACT, imo, truly FACT -not possibility! It is absolute in my mind. The EVIDENCE is easy to find everywhere. So, it does not really matter whether some people like me "get it", because the PTB have so much force of mind power with The Entertainment "Brain Trusts" that I'm meaningless.

I'm not saying just how much of this ET-UFO "reality today" is Master Minded from '47, nor is there just one or two PTB, because this Mythology is so huge now it is just part of our collective unconscious now. This Mythology has a life of its own, so these PTB got what they wished for in the Entertainment and MIC Brain Trust sense. As Walter said, the ink was injected at just the right moments to give it life, and now all it needs is tweaking around the edges to nudge it in the directions the PTB want it to go. But there is a co-dependency now with the MIC and the Entertainment Matrix that makes this new ET SyFy religion unbelievably powerful. These are the Masters of Our Universe, our Gods, that are shaping our Human Destiny IMHO. Is it really ET?

Do these Humans deserve to be Our Gods with such mischief and deceit? After all, it IS just fiction????? The plausible deniability Evil Laugh is now going to haunt you till they decide to do what next?

What do you think their agendas are? Follow the money and the PTB's that benefit. Same old Mythologies? Just a new cloak of symbols in "new tech" semantics that can be used for the Matrix Mind Controls and Brain Trusts? They tell you everything to believe in without you even realizing it, IMO, but I'm sorry you will never get "the need to know". The church and sermons and bibles and morality and those Gods have all been bypassed into a new Mythology from the PTB. Yes, 1947 was a real revolution for SyFy Gods and the PTB. You can kiss the asses of the MIC for they gave you their wishes whatever that may be... it's their insanity.

 

[Trajanus]

I don't claim to know exactly why the US Need to Know people ran this Deception Campaign, but I believe it has to do with secret weapons development the Nazis had done with UFO and rocket development.

The government has always sought to DEBUNK belief in saucers not promote it, so this makes little sense. Had "UFO development" really progressed far, it would've come into general use, but hasn't after 6 decades plus.

 

[Trajanus]

One of my theories is this was a PSYOPS, The '47 Wave, to perhaps create another perceived enemy. ET.

But it's ridiculous to "create a perceived enemy" only to dismiss and debunk the notion repeatedly over the years.

By the 1950's this ET-UFO Mythology caught wildfire with SyFy movies, radio, and TV that there was no stopping this to become more powerful than most religions in all of Human history.

LOL to this very day traditional religion--for all its absurdity-- is still respectable whereas the idea of ET visitors is still struggling to win acceptance.

 

[DissectionStalker]

The government has always sought to DEBUNK belief in saucers not promote it, so this makes little sense. Had "UFO development" really progressed far, it would've come into general use, but hasn't after 6 decades plus.

BS. There is no such thing as "the government". There have always been different agendas with the Intelligence Agencies and MIC and UFO Cults and ET-UFO Entertainment. PLENTY of these people want you to believe in ET, period, whether denied or not.

You bet your ass there were also legitimate concerns about the Media Hysteria that ET-UFO's can cause. That's just another part of the ET-UFO PSYOPS to test and research such events and create such Mythologies. Do you think it is just one sided??? Hell no! There are TWO SIDES to this coin. They flip you every time... heads and tails. The PTB play both sides of this dialectic process. It's controlled at both ends. It's a genius move that Hynek changed his tune after retiring. LOL. The PTB love him for it too!!! IMO, there is a high likelihood LMH is knowing tool for the PTB serving some phucked-up National Security purposes like covering for all the Nuclear Bomb Fallout damage and/or other nightmare scenarios. Others are dupe pawns believing they are onto the trail of ET-UFO's, thereby serving their Human Puppet Masters unwittingly. There are many reasons and motives for many PTB to do this. A lot is just Hoaxing too! Plenty of tricksters love this game too.

The High Strange comes into play with a lot of misunderstandings about how our brains malfunction to make us believe in things that may not be the same UFO seen "out there". Clues are with various drugs and the natural brain chemicals of DMT and other unknowns. UFO's and ET's are definitely very real in there.

 

[DissectionStalker]

But it's ridiculous to "create a perceived enemy" only to dismiss and debunk the notion repeatedly over the years.

That's called cognitive dissonance and plausible deniability. Humans are malleable. PTB manipulate both sides of this equation for various reasons and outcomes.

LOL to this very day traditional religion--for all its absurdity-- is still respectable whereas the idea of ET visitors is still struggling to win acceptance.

LOL. Not in SyFy Entertainment which includes a lot of so called Science Entertainment too seen on Science/History related Channels. ET-UFO SyFy is well beyond and far more powerful than traditional religion. You were born into Star Trek and all the other ET-UFO Entertainment. This IS serious business. Worth TRILLIONS of dollars over the decades. You don't think Humans support the ET-UFO religion? BS? LOL... just follow the money! Always, follow the money! TRILLIONS of dollars blow your limited religious ideals into nothingness vs the Mythology of ET-UFO MIC and Matrix Entertainment. You're cooked and well past done, imo.

 

[Randall]

I know Marcel Jr.'s daughter believes her father [a doctor, now deceased] was sincere, so I have to assume he got that belief from his dad too. His dad was NEVER Need to Know about the '47 Wave, imo, so he was a pawn. The very best pawns believe what they think they know. It is a sincere LIE in that sense. One of my theories is this was a PSYOPS, The '47 Wave, to perhaps create another perceived enemy ...

It's OK to have ones' own pet theories. The important thing IMO is that we don't become so invested in them that we exclude everything else with absolute certainty. Some things, sure, I think, are safe to exclude; like ridiculous statements designed to throw gas on the debate, or ridicule someone else's ideas. Those will rarely be of value in getting us closer to the truth. Your PSYOPS theory is at least worthy of some consideration, and my initial reaction is that there was some deception involved, but beyond that, it's all speculation. In ufology, the theory is that it was to cover-up evidence of alien visitation. I'll admit that is a huge claim to make, but I also think that it's worthy of serious consideration. That doesn't mean I'm a born again Roswell believer. But it does rate high on my list of interesting cases.

 

[Burnt State]

It's OK to have ones' own pet theories. The important thing IMO is that we don't become so invested in them that we exclude everything else with absolute certainty. Some things, sure, I think, are safe to exclude; like ridiculous statements designed to throw gas on the debate, or ridicule someone else's ideas. Those will rarely be of value in getting us closer to the truth. Your PSYOPS theory is at least worthy of some consideration, and my initial reaction is that there was some deception involved, but beyond that, it's all speculation. In ufology, the theory is that it was to cover-up evidence of alien visitation. I'll admit that is a huge claim to make, but I also think that it's worthy of serious consideration. That doesn't mean I'm a born again Roswell believer. But it does rate high on my list of interesting cases.

You are probably someone who's been more invested in this field of study for longer than most around here. Looking back on the history of Ufology, say you extracted the ETH lens earlier on, or relegated it to a position where it did not dominate so much of the history of the field, do you think Ufological studies would be better off than where it is now. From the Caipan conference the leaders in the field, that includes all long term international participants from Haines to Vallée, admit they know little about the phenomenon since the advent of studying it. The ETH has brought us no closer to much of anything at all and may have in fact both distorted and imited the vision and study for decades. What do you think might have happened if the ETH had been sidelined earlier on? Do you think other areas of investigation may have received more intense scrutiny and pursuit i.e. witness studies, consciousness investigation, perceptual capacities and functionality, closed system analysis etc.?

 

[Randall]

You are probably someone who's been more invested in this field of study for longer than most around here. Looking back on the history of Ufology, say you extracted the ETH lens earlier on, or relegated it to a position where it did not dominate so much of the history of the field, do you think Ufological studies would be better off than where it is now. From the Caipan conference the leaders in the field, that includes all long term international participants from Haines to Vallée, admit they know little about the phenomenon since the advent of studying it. The ETH has brought us no closer to much of anything at all and may have in fact both distorted and imited the vision and study for decades. What do you think might have happened if the ETH had been sidelined earlier on? Do you think other areas of investigation may have received more intense scrutiny and pursuit i.e. witness studies, consciousness investigation, perceptual capacities and functionality, closed system analysis etc.?

An interesting question to ponder. If all along the believers had been pressuring the establishment to disclose a secret terrestrial civilization, the skeptics would have called it nonsense and countered by coming up with all kinds of reasons why it's far more likely they come from space ( LOL ).

 

[DissectionStalker]

An interesting question to ponder. If all along the believers had been pressuring the establishment to disclose a secret terrestrial civilization, the skeptics would have called it nonsense and countered by coming up with all kinds of reasons why it's far more likely they come from space ( LOL ).

IMO, it's highly religious and mythological to think any ET is traveling anywhere within our Galaxy. We are the only living creature in all of life history on our planet to attempt to travel within our solar system, but we have no Human bases even on our own nearby Moon. No other planet is friendly to Earth life forms in our solar system.

Any advanced intelligence with similar abilities and interests in the Universe will have long since discovered life on our planet. We would have been explored by probes or other means within the last billion years or so. But is that very likely? Here are some good reasons to consider that it probably never happened... Will it ever happen? Maybe not...

Don't forget and keep in mind there is no reason intelligent life necessarily has to follow down a path we Humans have taken. We've had millions [or billions?] of life forms on our planet and only one came into being by sheer accident that does what we do. We are EXTREMELY rare on our planet. The odds are astronomical against Human intelligence happening.

We may be far more unique than most people believe. We needed Jupiter, our moon, and asteroids or comet impacts to create the conditions for Humans to come into existence. The odds are astronomical against an intelligent life form like ours existing just on our planet. It will be the same everywhere else assuming life generates easily enough on planets like ours. Meaning, it will never happen on most life giving planets. Btw, I don't think we've found a match yet in our galaxy of any planet being near identical to ours, nor have we found it within a protective solar system either.

Something tells me we are far more astronomically unique than we are being led to believe. Another "mythology control" objective that aids the PTB and MIC too? Certainly The Storytellers are telling us we are not alone, but are they telling us the truth that intelligent life does not exist as we do? The odds were astronomical against Humans taking form on our planet, and all other millions or billions of life forms here had no need to do what we do. We are likely very alone in the Universe with few intelligent life forms more advanced than we are if we consider what it took to produce Humans on planet Earth. We may even wipe-out our species soon if we can't protect our planet from impacts and the coming ice ages or self-destruction. At the rate we're going we may only have a slim chance of succeeding. We'll be lucky to colonize the Moon and Mars.