Refuting the ETH: Angels/Aliens/Archetypes

[Randall]

IMO, it's highly religious and mythological to think any ET is traveling anywhere within our Galaxy ...

I'm aware of the astronomical variables that contribute to the chance of life developing on Earth, and have heard all kinds of reasons as to why we should be skeptical of the ETH when it comes to alien visitation, and many of them make sense. We should be skeptical, but at the same time, it's not necessary to ascribe mythological or religious attributes to the possibility of interstellar travel or alien visitation. Alien machines ( if such exist ) are simply machines used to transport things from place to place. There is nothing religious or mythological about that other than what some religious people want to make of it ( e.g. The Raëlians ), or what connections we might make to religion in a historical context. Otherwise, by your logic, simply believing in aircraft would make us all members of a cargo cult.

 

[DissectionStalker]

Humans are likely to discover planets that can support life. Within a few thousand years or less I imagine we can send genetic code and robotic life support systems to start life and even colonize such planets. Since I believe that to be in the realm of Human possibility, then we might have been seeded by some relatives we know nothing about yet. It is possible we are being watched too, but I don't know WHY our relatives would want to do that??? After all, we would be literally distant relatives. LOL.

My logic does not agree with your suggestion: "Otherwise, by your logic, simply believing in aircraft would make us all members of a cargo cult."

Humans have ALWAYS believed in ET-Alien Gods in terms of religions and mythologies. It is one of Humankind's most powerful beliefs throughout all of history including our new high tech ET-Alien Gods too. Nothing "new" there except that the MIC and Entertainment Matrix have given you the blueprints of what you'll see in the sky above. It is also being done to direct Humanity by the PTB towards the Human destiny they want you to believe in too! That is "the control" that is "out there" vs some real ET-UFO watchers. IMO.

 

[Randall]

... My logic does not agree with your suggestion: "Otherwise, by your logic, simply believing in aircraft would make us all members of a cargo cult." Humans have ALWAYS believed in ET-Alien Gods in terms of religions and mythologies. ...

You're changing the goalposts and introducing absolutist statements again. Your original point was, "IMO, it's highly religious and mythological to think any ET is traveling anywhere within our Galaxy ...", but the fact of the matter is that there is nothing unscientific about the possibility of interstellar travel or alien civilizations. Therefore thinking about it doesn't automatically make one a member of an ET cult. No religion or mythology need apply. To address your absolutist statement, "Humans have ALWAYS believed in ET-Alien Gods in terms of religions and mythologies." That statement is false. Humans have not "ALWAYS believed" in such things. Not all humans have believed in them in the past, and not all of them do now. You don't seem to believe in such things, and assuming there are aliens, I don't consider them to be Gods either. The mythological and religious connections can be studied from a purely objective point of view in the same way we study the history and mythology of any other topic.

 

[DissectionStalker]

Not all humans have believed in them in the past, and not all of them do now.

I did not say that. I did not say: "all humans".

Throughout history it is obvious Humans had religions and mythologies and beliefs that included Creatures, Gods, and Human Gods descended from the sky or sun above [the stars, etc.], we call them ET Aliens too [there is no proof], from the stars and sky above. Of course, their primitive understanding is different than the way we believe in such things, but the quest and similarities for believing in such ideas and wanting such connections are obvious. And, because there is no proof and only belief I can logically state: IMO, it's highly religious and mythological to think any ET is traveling anywhere within our Galaxy.

It IS obvious at this time we are unique within our Galaxy to be sending probes around our solar system. Most intelligent life forms will never do what Humans do. There are many intelligent life forms on our planet that have proven that for millions or billions of years. Even most primates will never do what Humans do. It's outlandish to assume it will be different anywhere else, imo. We can't even find life anywhere else in our Galaxy.

IMO, there may be a lot of life forms out there, including intelligent life forms, but I'm logical to assume very few, if any, will travel beyond their solar systems. It's not impossible but not probable, imo.

 

[Randall]

I did not say that. I did not say: "all humans".

Throughout history it is obvious Humans had religions and mythologies and beliefs that included Creatures, Gods, and Human Gods descended from the sky or sun above [the stars, etc.], we call them ET Aliens too [there is no proof], from the stars and sky above. Of course, their primitive understanding is different than the way we believe in such things, but the quest and similarities for believing in such ideas and wanting such connections are obvious.

Sure, that's fair. Some humans believe some things that other humans don't, and we want to keep it clear where those dividing lines are. These days, those who see aliens as gods, whether they be attached to UFOs or not, appear to be in the vast minority. Religions like the Raëlians certainly don't represent the views of the average person, but even if the majority of those interested in the subject actually believed in aliens as gods and deified them and worshipped them at some altar, and everything else that goes along with religion, there would still be those of us who don't.

 

[Constance]

It IS obvious at this time we are unique within our Galaxy to be sending probes around our solar system.

It is? Where do you get your wild ideas? It can't be from astrophysicists and other space scientists, among whom the likelihood of advanced extraterrestrial species is recognized, along with the expectation that such species would become spacefaring for a variety of practical reasons. Btw, do you consider such scientists to be motivated by religious fervor, fantasy, or wish-fulfillment?

 

[Burnt State]

An interesting question to ponder. If all along the believers had been pressuring the establishment to disclose a secret terrestrial civilization, the skeptics would have called it nonsense and countered by coming up with all kinds of reasons why it's far more likely they come from space ( LOL ).

True, but I was thinking more about legitimate discussion as opposed to the standard disclosure circus or how most of popular Ufology today looks just like wrestling in the late 70's. The ETH has for too long guided thinking, continues to do so, and has produced bupkas. The wrong think around the polarities of answers also doesn't help i.e. if they're not from outer space then they must be from inner space etc. when a more probing response in terms of both methodology and ideology is only just beginning:

Almost 70 years after banging away at the whole myth of aliens visiting us, Ufology is just starting to ask, "How do we study the phenomenon," instead of starting from a place of, "We already know what the phenomenon is," when in fact we know very little about it, and certainly can not confirm intelligent life forms visiting from outer space.

 

[Randall]

True, but I was thinking more about legitimate discussion as opposed to the standard disclosure circus or how most of popular Ufology today looks just like wrestling in the late 70's. The ETH has for too long guided thinking, continues to do so, and has produced bupkas.

That doesn't mean the ETH is wrong. No other search for the origin of the alien visitors has obtained sufficient evidence to prove where their from either.

The wrong think around the polarities of answers also doesn't help i.e. if they're not from outer space then they must be from inner space etc. when a more probing response in terms of both methodology and ideology is only just beginning:

It's not a "wrong think" to apply deductive reasoning to problems. It's perfectly reasonable. If they aren't ET then logically they must be terrestrial. There's no other option. Like I always say, use critical thinking: CriticalThinking.org - Critical Thinking Model 1

Almost 70 years after banging away at the whole myth of aliens visiting us, Ufology is just starting to ask, "How do we study the phenomenon," instead of starting from a place of, "We already know what the phenomenon is," when in fact we know very little about it, and certainly can not confirm intelligent life forms visiting from outer space.

IMO alien visitation ( ET or otherwise ) is not a "myth" as in fictitious or purely symbolic, and I appreciate what you're saying to some extent, but let's not forget that there have been studies by reputable people in the past. The Project Sign people didn't start out with any assumptions about where UFOs originate, yet they ultimately came to the conclusion that UFOs are probably ET. It's also no secret that their conclusion was rejected. So that proves that even in the early days of ufology, the ETH hasn't always been embraced.

 

[Burnt State]

That doesn't mean the ETH is wrong. No other search for the origin of the alien visitors has obtained sufficient evidence to prove where their from either.

it points in a direction when that location has yet to be ascertained. So the ETH may not be wrong, but is basically just the best guess we've got. I say that's clouded the collective pool of thinking for too long and has placed great limits on our imaginative and critical capacities to work through this problem.

It's not a "wrong think" to apply

]deductive reasoning to problems. It's perfectly reasonable. If they aren't ET then logically they must be terrestrial. There's no other option. Like I always say, use critical thinking: CriticalThinking.org - Critical Thinking Model 1

well, thanks for the tip, but I think binary thinking is pretty limiting and that given quantum reality we should be prepared for a number of different possibilities of what is taking place and how it is interacting with us. The thought experiment that was the Cryptoterrestrials is just another theory. There are always other options that we have yet to conceive of. It's like looking for the third bank of the river - not an easy position to find. No paradox is.

IMO alien visitation ( ET or otherwise ) is not a "myth" as in fictitious or purely symbolic, and I appreciate what you're saying to some extent, but let's not forget that there have been studies by reputable people in the past. The Project Sign people didn't start out with any assumptions about where UFOs originate, yet they ultimately came to the conclusion that UFOs are probably ET. It's also no secret that their conclusion was rejected. So that proves that even in the early days of ufology, the ETH hasn't always been embraced.

no it hasn't and has been refuted time and time and time again, but like bad ufo's crashed in the desert these vampiric cases and ways of thinkng about ufo's keep coming back to life. Such is the ETH cloud that hangs like a pall over Ufology. I also don't think it is purely symbolic, yet its narrative has become interwoven with our own culture; there are these other impacts on us and this appears to be a part of the process and experience of the phenomenon. More studies that don't start from the ETH perspective is a critical undertaking and would help breathe some reinvention into Ufological research.

 

[Constance]

The Project Sign people didn't start out with any assumptions about where UFOs originate, yet they ultimately came to the conclusion that UFOs are probably ET. It's also no secret that their conclusion was rejected.

By General what's-his-name, as I recall. No such authoritative rejection since then, and General (what was his name?) was no scientific expert; only a General trying to control the ranks.

 

[Constance]

Such is the ETH cloud that hangs like a pall over Ufology. I also don't think it is purely symbolic, yet its narrative has become interwoven with our own culture; there are these other impacts on us and this appears to be a part of the process and experience of the phenomenon. More studies that don't start from the ETH perspective is a critical undertaking and would help breathe some reinvention into Ufological research.

Such purple prose again. Who is stopping you and yours from proceeding with the kind of approach you want to use? Write to Jacques and ask him to put a fire under it.

 

[Constance]

Sorry if that seems dismissive, Burnt, but I've been reading this same argument in the same words here for over a year now. It's like reading wallpaper. Just do it.

 

[boomerang]

I have no intrinsic problem with the notion of UFOs as sequestered technology of human origin. Its just that this "breakaway civilization" line of reasoning leads to a larger paradigm that is as almost as esoteric and fraught with "woo"
as any ETH or extra dimensional model might be.

 

[Trajanus]

By General what's-his-name, as I recall. No such authoritative rejection since then, and General (what was his name?) was no scientific expert; only a General trying to control the ranks.

Vandenburg, rejecting the "Estimate of the Situation"? He said the conclusions weren't supported by the evidence. But as KDR wrote, they didn't have access to Roswell info.

 

[Trajanus]

IMO, it's highly religious and mythological to think any ET is traveling anywhere within our Galaxy.

Nonsense. There are vast numbers of other planets, some likely to be habitable and many millions of years older. If we can progress from hot air balloon flight to interplanetary travel in a century, think of how far a Population II civilization could've gotten by now.

...but we have no Human bases even on our own nearby Moon. No other planet is friendly to Earth life forms in our solar system.

Bases may be established in this century or the next and some worlds might be terraformed eventually.

Don't forget and keep in mind there is no reason intelligent life necessarily has to follow down a path we Humans have taken.

Given myriad examples of homoplasy, it wouldn't be surprising if it did.

We've had millions [or billions?] of life forms on our planet and only one came into being by sheer accident that does what we do. We are EXTREMELY rare on our planet. The odds are astronomical against Human intelligence happening.

I don't buy it. Evolutionary history is progressive in that it gave rise to more complex and capable lifeforms that didn't exist previously. Even if our species never existed, sooner or later something could've filled our niche. Russell thought even Troodon might've done it.

We needed Jupiter, our moon,

I don't buy that either. The jovians may have absorbed much but they also pulled a lot of oort junk into the inner solar system in the first place. And heck, had a lot of stuff not been absorbed it might cause more terrestrial planets to accrete close to a central star. As for a satellite it can be a liability in that it might slow down planetary rotation excessively.

and asteroids or comet impacts

Virtually certain in any planetary system.

Btw, I don't think we've found a match yet in our galaxy of any planet being near identical to ours,

The problem is that big planets, hardly the best prospects for life, are the easiest and first to be found. Smaller ones exist in probably far greater numbers but they're harder to detect. But with improved techniques or more missions, we'll see more earthsized planets.

Certainly The Storytellers are telling us we are not alone, but are they telling us the truth that intelligent life does not exist as we do?

No one is in any position to cal that "the truth." And the "storytellers" couldn't possibly have caused all the thousands of UFO reports worldwide over the past several decades.

 

[smcder]

That doesn't mean the ETH is wrong. No other search for the origin of the alien visitors has obtained sufficient evidence to prove where their from either.

It's not a "wrong think" to apply deductive reasoning to problems. It's perfectly reasonable. If they aren't ET then logically they must be terrestrial. There's no other option. Like I always say, use critical thinking: CriticalThinking.org - Critical Thinking Model 1

IMO alien visitation ( ET or otherwise ) is not a "myth" as in fictitious or purely symbolic, and I appreciate what you're saying to some extent, but let's not forget that there have been studies by reputable people in the past. The Project Sign people didn't start out with any assumptions about where UFOs originate, yet they ultimately came to the conclusion that UFOs are probably ET. It's also no secret that their conclusion was rejected. So that proves that even in the early days of ufology, the ETH hasn't always been embraced.

re: criticalthinking.org

caveat emptor (that's Latin for "obey the tie" ... no wait, that's cravate imperator ... no, that's not right, either) ... well, anyway just be careful before you buy stuff:

I posted this a while back:

Courthouse News Service

I'm not opposed to the idea(s) of "critical thinking", but from what I can tell this group seems to be about trying to make ideas proprietary (by grouping them into (expensive) learning modules) that are freely available across the web.

And, as burnt said, there are other things we can do with our minds.

 

[Burnt State]

Such purple prose again. Who is stopping you and yours from proceeding with the kind of approach you want to use? Write to Jacques and ask him to put a fire under it.

it's not my place to do that and he appears to be moving as fast as he can with those who are able to - slow going to be certain, but I see nothing wrong with adopting his ideas and the ideas of other leading thinkers in the field and applying them where possible.

Sorry if that seems dismissive, Burnt, but I've been reading this same argument in the same words here for over a year now. It's like reading wallpaper. Just do it.

I don't find it dismissive at all, just a repetition. Much has changed in my thinking over the last year about the phenomenon as well as my pursuits of it - how about you?

 

[Randall]

re: criticalthinking.org

caveat emptor (that's Latin for "obey the tie" ... no wait, that's cravate imperator ... no, that's not right, either) ... well, anyway just be careful before you buy stuff:

I posted this a while back:

Courthouse News Service

I'm not opposed to the idea(s) of "critical thinking", but from what I can tell this group seems to be about trying to make ideas proprietary (by grouping them into (expensive) learning modules) that are freely available across the web.

And, as burnt said, there are other things we can do with our minds.

To quote:

"The Center for Critical Thinking and Moral Critique and the Foundation for Critical Thinking — two sister educational non-profit organizations — work closely together to promote educational reform. We seek to promote essential change in education and society through the cultivation of fair-minded critical thinking."
​

IMO that's just fine. Groups have to meet certain requirements before being granted non-profit status, and I don't have a problem with them going around doing seminars and charging for them. If they can make a go of it while cultivating fair-minded critical thinking, I wish them all the success in the world.

 

[DissectionStalker]

It is? Where do you get your wild ideas? It can't be from astrophysicists and other space scientists, among whom the likelihood of advanced extraterrestrial species is recognized, along with the expectation that such species would become spacefaring for a variety of practical reasons. Btw, do you consider such scientists to be motivated by religious fervor, fantasy, or wish-fulfillment?

Yes, I clearly said "at this time". Where do you get your wild assertions? Wink.

I believe most astrobiologists are very hesitant to speculate about the number of intelligent life forms that have similar Human-like shapes that are also exploring our Galaxy with probes or in-person as YOU BELIEVE IT IS A FACT. AND, YOU believe you've seen their ET-UFO's [more than once] personally too!

Most astrobiologists probably believe life similar to many life forms found on Earth will have genesis on other Earth-like worlds, but very few will believe there are so many Alien races like those presented on Star Trek [or by the Aviary -huge Wink] and such SyFy genre that look similar to Human shape and form. Hilarious, imo, for people to not realize just how incredibly naive and ego driven but also wishful thinking and fantasy prone and absolutely ridiculous, imo, such ideas are. Though, believe me, I understand just how easy it is to believe such things. Yes, that is the power of religion and mythology. You have only to thank the MIC and the Entertainment Matrix for the very thorough blueprints you are built upon. IMO.

The Borg would say: You have been assimilated...

Take the Red Pill or be in the Blue Pill.

I'm a Red Pill Junkie.

 

[Constance]

I believe most astrobiologists are very hesitant to speculate about the number of intelligent life forms that have similar Human-like shapes that are also exploring our Galaxy with probes or in-person as YOU BELIEVE IT IS A FACT. AND, YOU believe you've seen their ET-UFO's [more than once] personally too!

Of course astrobiologists and other scientists are "very hesitant to speculate" about what's going on elsewhere in the galaxy our solar system inhabits. I do not "BELIEVE IT IS A FACT" that exterrestrial species are traveling throughout our galaxy or beyond it. I think this is a possibility, perhaps even a probability, but it is not an established fact. I've had two ufo sightings that I've described here. I have never said I've had a sighting of an ET. You have a stubborn habit of putting words in other people's mouths and claiming that you know what other people think and believe. You should break that habit.