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Refuting the ETH: Angels/Aliens/Archetypes

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Yes, Humans have seen objects in the sky that are religious or signs meant to prove whatever belief or objective is at hand. The ET-UFO is just the current rendition of this phenomenon.

I don't buy that. For one thing, many sightings have been made by skeptics--the last people who want to see UFOs.

What complicates this even more is the fact Humans can now fly or hoax ET-Concept UFO's in the sky too. There is too much noise to filter out for a sighting to be a real ET anymore. Like Walter said on the recent Paracast "the ink" just has to be injected to create the Mythology. It takes on a life of its own. Now it only has to be tweaked at the edges.

Investigators always had to deal with hoaxes. Some cases just are highly unlikely to have been hoaxed. e.g. the ridiculous claim that Socorro was somehow hoaxed by unnamed college students.

Until we study the mind and brain and psychology and "the collective" mind in relation to UFO's and other paranormal visions seen, then we really don't know whether this is just all in our head as the point of manifestation.

It's definitely not all in our head.

Some people can manifest these objects when others cannot see it. Maybe it's just that some humans have this ability, but we really don't understand how reality is shaped. Two witnesses often don't see the same thing, so there is very little confirmation of anything.

The phenomenon wants to confuse us and does so in a number of ways, like nutty statements.
 
I was alluding to the coverup. Not that the best evidence, confiscated, is the only physical evidence.



Lol, apples and oranges. Proof of bioluminescene won't hurt the stock market or cause panic. The government has an incentive to conceal proof of ET because of its unpredictable consequences. Credible witnesses recalled handling highly exotic material at the very start of the modern UFO era, but not for long.

You're moving the goal posts. Right now there is no physical evidence available that proves anything. You can say "they" are hiding it, but we still have no evidence.
 
The point is this really is a religion ...
What exactly is the "this" that you're talking about? The Paracast? The History Channel? The publishers? The guests? I'm not clear on exactly what or who you are referring to. It seems like you're attempting to use one large brush to paint everything with the same label. Not so sure that's wise.
 
What exactly is the "this" that you're talking about? The Paracast? The History Channel? The publishers? The guests? I'm not clear on exactly what or who you are referring to. It seems like you're attempting to use one large brush to paint everything with the same label. Not so sure that's wise.

I agree, we can't paint with broad strokes like that. Not all ufologists are the same, just like not all skeptics are the same :)
 
Paine - “One good schoolmaster is of more use than a hundred priests.”

Ingersoll - “Give me the storm and tempest of thought and action, rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith! Banish me from Eden when you will; but first let me eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge!”

Voltaire - “Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.”

Whitman - “I like the scientific spirit—the holding off, the being sure but not too sure, the willingness to surrender ideas when the evidence is against them: this is ultimately fine—it always keeps the way beyond open—always gives life, thought, affection, the whole man, a chance to try over again after a mistake—after a wrong guess.”

Edison - "Moral teaching is the thing we need most in this world, and many of these men could be great moral teachers if they would but give their whole time to it, and to scientific search for the rock-bottom truth, instead of wasting it upon expounding theories of theology which are not in the first place firmly based. What we need is search for fundamentals, not reiteration of traditions born in days when men knew even less than we do now.

Camus - “Men are never convinced of your reasons, of your sincerity, of the seriousness of your sufferings, except by your death. So long as you are alive, your case is doubtful; you have a right only to their skepticism.”

Jefferson - “If we could believe that he [Jesus] really countenanced the follies, the falsehoods, and the charlatanism which his biographers [Gospels] father on him, and admit the misconstructions, interpolations, and theorizations of the fathers of the early, and the fanatics of the latter ages, the conclusion would be irresistible by every sound mind that he was an impostor... We find in the writings of his biographers matter of two distinct descriptions. First, a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstitions, fanaticisms and fabrications... That sect [Jews] had presented for the object of their worship, a being of terrific character, cruel, vindictive, capricious and unjust... Jesus had to walk on the perilous confines of reason and religion: and a step to right or left might place him within the gripe of the priests of the superstition, a blood thirsty race, as cruel and remorseless as the being whom they represented as the family God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob, and the local God of Israel. They were constantly laying snares, too, to entangle him in the web of the law... That Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced by the writings of men more learned than myself in that lore.

[Letter to William Short, 4 August, 1820]”

I suspect this Short is the son or grandson of a man who was sent from England to teach him Newton's alchemy for one year when Thomas was at William and Mary.

Ingersoll - “Not one of the orthodox ministers dare preach what he thinks if he knows a majority of his congregation think otherwise. He knows that every member of his church stands guard over his brain with a creed, like a club, in his hand. He knows that he is not expected to search after the truth, but that he is employed to defend the creed. Every pulpit is a pillory, in which stands a hired culprit, defending the justice of his own imprisonment.”
 
Scepticism is integral to the scientific process, because most claims turn out to be false. Weeding out the few kernels of wheat from the large pile of chaff requires extensive observation, careful experimentation and cautious inference. Science is scepticism and good scientists are sceptical.

Denial is different. It is the automatic gainsaying of a claim regardless of the evidence for it – sometimes even in the teeth of evidence. Denialism is typically driven by ideology or religious belief, where the commitment to the belief takes precedence over the evidence. Belief comes first, reasons for belief follow, and those reasons are winnowed to ensure that the belief survives intact.


“I can assure you that, given they exist, these flying saucers are made by no power on this Earth.”
-President Harry S. Truman, 4 April 1950,

We must insist upon full access to disks recovered. For instance, in the LA case the Army grabbed it and would not let us have it for cursory examination.”
-J. Edgar Hoover

It was the darndest thing I’ve ever seen. It was big, it was very bright, it changed colors and it was about the size of the Moon. We watched it for ten minutes, but none of us could figure out what it was. One thing’s for sure, I’ll never make fun of people who say they’ve seen unidentified objects in the sky.
-President Jimmy Carter

“I looked out the window and saw this white light.It was zigzagging around. I went up to the pilot and said,Have you ever seen anything like that? He was shocked and he said, “Nope.” And I said to him: “Let’s follow it!” We followed it for several minutes. It was a bright white light.We followed it to Bakersfield, and all of a sudden to our utter amazement it went straight up into the heavens. When I got off the plane I told Nancy all about it.”
-President Ronald Reagan

“The phenomenon of UFOs does exist, and it must be treated seriously.”
-Mikhail Gorbachev

“The UFO phenomenon being reported is something real and not visionary or fictitious”
-General Nathan Twining Chairman, Joint chiefs of staff, 1955-1958

“For thirty years, I’ve held that image in my mind. What I saw was a circular object that looked like two pie plates put on top of each other with a golf ball on top. It was a classic flying saucer,and it shot a beam of something at our warhead”
-U.S. Air Force Lieutenant Robert M. Jacobs

I speak from three years of detailed, personal research involving interviews with more than five hundred witnesses in selected UFO cases,chiefly in the United States. In my opinion the UFO problem,far from being the ‘nonsense problem’ it has been labelled by many scientists,constitutes an area of extraordinary scientific interest”.
-Dr. James McDonald
Professor of Atmospheric Sciences
Quoted in “UFOs – a Scientific debate”

“The matter is the most highly classified subject in the United States Government, rating even higher than the H Bomb. Flying saucers exist. Their Modus operandi is unknown but concentrated effort is being made by by a small group headed by Doctor Vannevar Bush.”
-Wilbert Smith in a top secret Canadian Government Memorandum,
21st November 1950

More than 10,000 sightings have been reported, the majority of which cannot be accounted for by any scientific explanation... I am convinced that these objects do exist and that they are not manufactured by any nation on Earth." "I can therefore see no alternative to accepting the theory that they come from some extraterrestrial source.
Air Chief Marshal Lord Dowding, Commander-in-Chief of the Royal Air Force Fighter Command during the Battle of Britain, printed in Sunday Dispatch, London, July 11, 1954

The evidence that there are objects which have been seen in our atmosphere, and even on terra firma, that cannot be accounted for either as man-made objects or as any physical force or effect known to our scientists, seems to me to be overwhelming... A very large number of sightings have been vouched for by persons whose credentials seem to me unimpeachable. It is striking that so many have been trained observers, such as police officers and airline or military pilots. Their observations have in many instances... been supported either by technical means such as radar or, even more convincingly, by... interference with electrical apparatus of one sort or another....
-Lord Hill-Norton, Chief of Defense Staff, Ministry of Defense, Great Britain, 1973; Chairman, Military Committee of NATO, 1974-77;


But not to worry folks its all in their minds, move along folks nothing to discuss here

Denial is different. It is the automatic gainsaying of a claim regardless of the evidence for it – sometimes even in the teeth of evidence. Denialism is typically driven by ideology or religious belief, where the commitment to the belief takes precedence over the evidence. Belief comes first, reasons for belief follow, and those reasons are winnowed to ensure that the belief survives intact
 
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Saying the ET-UFO experience is ALL in the mind is the ONLY location we know for certain the ET-UFO is located. It takes an observer, but we also KNOW people can hallucinate for many UNKNOWN reasons too. Since the phenomenon is elusive in almost every case I'm aware of, then it behooves us to begin to understand WTF is going on inside our minds when such experiences occur. The science is missing entirely.

Yes, when there are multiple witnesses, it is almost certain there is a UFO "out there" too. BUT. The proof is almost always only LIGHT waves entering the eyes, and light can be holographic or "screen images" too. If it is at night, then there is no way for a Human to not be certain the sighting is a hoax or some Human craft that looks like ET-UFO to the witnesses. Black Ops own the night! So do hoaxers too!

I stand by my assertion it is ALL in the mind, but that NEVER means it is ALWAYS "out there" too. It's interesting to see the kind of responses my post got, since many of you already know that is my position too. Lol.
 
Yes, it is a scientific area of interest. Especially in the area of how far government can go in telling lies and covering over the truth of their efforts to control people and keep their attention away from what people should be doing.

At this site you also see people who insist it cannot be anything to do with physics and the multiverse. They have heard it all and BELIEVE in their boogeymen. They insist any person demanding facts is a psy-ops operative or worse. They bully and brainwash with the best. But deny facts.

I have yet to see a UFO report that I cannot explain, and Jimmy Carter who you quote did nothing to change the Black Ops or cover up once he got in office even though he said he would. I think Carter during office and certainly after having been in office would say the truth - he seems to have seen the truth while in office.

Electrical effects have become common knowledge as a result of people seeing pulse weapons in movies. I wonder why Mike did not quote Admiral Stubblebine (He-He).
 
Their observations have in many instances... been supported either by technical means such as radar or, even more convincingly, by... interference with electrical apparatus of one sort or another....
-Lord Hill-Norton, Chief of Defense Staff, Ministry of Defense, Great Britain, 1973; Chairman, Military Committee of NATO, 1974-77;

Which rules out all in the mind

And the military Psyops angle doesnt cover the sightings my non military personel such as policemen and pilots or their accounts of equipment failure

case in point

The patrol car had very peculiar damage. The inside headlight on the driver's side was smashed but not the one to its immediate left. There was a flat-bottomed circular dent on the left side of the front hood, about a half inch in diameter, close to the windshield. There was a crack in the windshield on the driver's side, that ran from top to bottom, with four apparent impacts. The electric clock was running 14 minutes slow, as was Johnson's wristwatch. The shaft of the roof antenna was bent over at a 60-degree angle, starting about 6 inches above its base. The trunk antenna was bent over at 90 degrees, but only near the top. No damage occurred to the car's regular antenna on the front hood. Essentially, all the damage to the car occurred on the left, or driver's side.
Investigations occurred immediately, both
by the sheriff's department and by investigators from the Center for UFO Studies. The police determined that Johnson's car traveled about 950 feet after the first damage occurred. No cause could be found for the event, including collision with another vehicle or a low-flying plane, a hoax on the part of Johnson, or anything else. In addition, experts from Ford Motors (the vehicle was a 1977 Ford LTD) and a team of engineers from Honeywell examined various portions of the damage.
A windshield expert, Meridan French, from Ford, noted after examining the windshield fractures that "Even after several days of reflection on the crack patterns and apparent sequence of fractures, I still have no explanation for what seem to be inward and outward forces acting almost simultaneously. I can only [conclude]... that all cracks were from mechanical forces of unknown origin." No cause could be found for the clock running slow, the peculiar antenna damage, or other physical traces.



UFO Skeptic


The electric clock was running 14 minutes slow, as was Johnson's wristwatch

That doesnt fit "all in the mind" Nor is there any proof this was military psyops

You are trying to massage the data to fit your own worldview, but it doesnt fit

Folklorist Thomas Bullard explains:
UFOs as experiential phenomenon and UFOs as popular cultural myth entangle in a knot of confusion. I suspect that this entanglement stands as one of the greatest impediments to understanding the nature of UFOs, and scientific acceptance as a subject worthy of serious attention. A historical perspective offers a grip on the end of the string, a chance to untangle the mess to some degree.[1]
In this regard, the 24 October 1968, Minot AFB UFO case offers an exceptional opportunity to untangle the myth, particularly given the extent of the primary documentation, including B-52 radarscope photographs and independent testimonial evidence. According to astrophysicist Bernard Haisch, “To look at the evidence and go away unconvinced is one thing. To not look at the evidence and be convinced against it nonetheless is another.”

The B-52’s own radar detected the radar return (UFO) co-altitude at three miles away, sparking air safety concerns among the crew. However, as the B-52 banked around the roughly 6-mile diameter turn the UFO maintained a constant three-mile separation, moving to the northeast — outside of the turn radius and to the left of the B-52 as it finally rolled out.
Upon clearing the WT fix to begin the descent back to the runway, the radar return suddenly changed position. In one sweep of the radar — less than three seconds — the UFO appeared to close distance to one mile, while subsequent sweeps would indicate that the return was matching the forward velocity of the B-52. The seemingly phenomenal and instantaneous movement of the UFO startled B-52 navigator Captain Patrick McCaslin:
I knew whatever it was that there was something there that I’d never seen on radar. I don’t know of anything that could go laterally in three seconds, two miles, and just stop. It was maintaining our descent rate, and then just laterally to one mile… perfect formation.[10]
At the same instant as the return’s abrupt change of position, the B-52’s two UHF radios ceased transmission on all frequencies with RAPCON. The UFO continued pacing the aircraft off the left wing for nearly 20 miles. Near the end of the descent trajectory, the radarscope camera filmed the UFO as it appeared to spiral around behind the B-52, after which the radar return disappeared and radio communications returned to normal.[11]

Introduction | The Minot AFB UFO case | 24 OCTOBER 1968

Radar Analyses | The Minot AFB UFO case | 24 OCTOBER 1968
 
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I have learned quite a bit about the UFO phenomenon over the years (certainly more than I had bargained for) and have met many of the leading figures, some credible, some deluded. When Prof. Peter Sturrock, a prominent Stanford University plasma physicist, conducted a survey of the membership of the American Astronomical Society in the 1970s, he made an interesting finding: astronomers who spent time reading up on the UFO phenomenon developed more interest in it. If there were nothing to it, you would expect the opposite: lack of credible evidence would cause interest to wane. But the fact of the matter is, there does exist a vast amount of high quality, albeit enigmatic, data. UFO sightings are not limited to farmers in backward rural areas. There are astronomers and pilots and NASA engineers -- and others who have been around the block a few times when it comes to observing natural phenomena -- who have witnessed events for which there is no plausible conventional explanation.

UFO Skeptic

I propose that true skepticism is called for today: neither the gullible acceptance of true belief nor the closed-minded rejection of the scoffer masquerading as the skeptic. One should be skeptical of both the believers and the scoffers. The negative claims of pseudo-skeptics who offer facile explanations must themselves be subject to criticism. If a competent witness reports having seen something tens of degrees of arc in size (as happens) and the scoffer -- who of course was not there -- offers Venus or a high altitude weather balloon as an explanation, the requirement of extraordinary proof for an extraordinary claim falls on the proffered negative claim as well. That kind of approach is also pseudo-science
 
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Yep - nothing new in what you say. Police and others are good stories, read a lot of them. I have better ones to prove your point - by FAR. I have talked with the people who have seen the craft in S-4 and have worked on them. Lived near Wright-Pat when Nixon was not allowed into the Hangar. My oldest brother met with others in his military spy association at Wright Pat and he asked them what was in the Hangar. They said 'we think you know'. That was when a person was on the talk show circuit who had worked on spacecraft or Roswell remains there, probably moved to S-4 now. I lived for many years near Nellis - loads of proof of what goes on there.

I suppose that scientists who have spent a great deal of their time and valuable assets discovering how matter acts under different laws and without constants are not worth listening to if you already know there are aliens among us. Maybe, Snagglepuss was your best teacher and the pulpit was your favorite refuge from the shadows in your dreams. The fact that mystics have been proven correct by Nobel Laureates in every hard science (See Re-discovering the Mind) is not going to mean anything because you have a cadre of friends who let you tell them what you think happens to you, as long as you listen to their narcissistic rationalizations.

"Other intelligent and technologically capable alien civilizations may exist in our Universe, but the problems with finding and communicating with them is that they are simply too far away for any meaningful two-way conversations. But what about the prospect of finding if life exists in other universes outside of our own?

Theoretical physics has brought us the notion that our single universe is not necessarily all there is. The "multiverse" idea is a hypothetical mega-universe full of numerous smaller universes, including our own.

In this month's Scientific American, Alejandro Jenkins from Florida State University and Gilad Perez, a theorist at the Weizmann Institute of Science in Israel, discuss how multiple other universes—each with its own laws of physics—may have emerged from the same primordial vacuum that gave rise to ours. Assuming they exist, many of those universes may contain intricate structures and perhaps even some forms of life. But the latest theoretical research suggests that our own universe may not be as “finely tuned” for the emergence of life as previously thought.

Jenkins and Perez write about a provocative hypothesis known as the anthropic principle, which states that the existence of intelligent life (capable of studying physical processes) imposes constraints on the possible form of the laws of physics.

"Our lives here on Earth — in fact, everything we see and know about the universe around us — depend on a precise set of conditions that makes us possible," Jenkins said. "For example, if the fundamental forces that shape matter in our universe were altered even slightly, it's conceivable that atoms never would have formed, or that the element carbon, which is considered a basic building block of life as we know it, wouldn't exist. So how is it that such a perfect balance exists? Some would attribute it to God, but of course, that is outside the realm of physics."

The theory of "cosmic inflation," which was developed in the 1980s in order to solve certain puzzles about the structure of our universe, predicts that ours is just one of countless universes to emerge from the same primordial vacuum. We have no way of seeing those other universes, although many of the other predictions of cosmic inflation have recently been corroborated by astrophysical measurements.

Given some of science's current ideas about high-energy physics, it is plausible that those other universes might each have different physical interactions. So perhaps it's no mystery that we would happen to occupy the rare universe in which conditions are just right to make life possible. This is analogous to how, out of the many planets in our universe, we occupy the rare one where conditions are right for organic evolution.

"What theorists like Dr. Perez and I do is tweak the calculations of the fundamental forces in order to predict the resulting effects on possible, alternative universes," Jenkins said. "Some of these results are easy to predict; for example, if there was no electromagnetic force, there would be no atoms and no chemical bonds. And without gravity, matter wouldn't coalesce into planets, stars and galaxies.

"What is surprising about our results is that we found conditions that, while very different from those of our own universe, nevertheless might allow — again, at least hypothetically — for the existence of life. (What that life would look like is another story entirely.) This actually brings into question the usefulness of the anthropic principle when applied to particle physics, and might force us to think more carefully about what the multiverse would actually contain."

A brief overview of the article is available for free on Scientific American's website.
Looking for Life in the Multiverse - Scientific American"

Seeking extraterrestrial life in the multiverse : Aliens & UFOs
 
I learned a lot from Snagglepuss - you could too. He initiated me to Rene Descartes and eventually therefore to existentialism. If you refute a connection between religion and alien visions and cults you are singularly adept in denial. I have quoted many experts on psychology and have admissions from people including Popes who you could also have quoted saying aliens are coming or are among us. But go ahead deal with the facts I presented in that post. Don't just say, Mommy!
 
Can you please link to the post that describes your sighting ( if there is one ).
Two sightings. One day. One night. I've posted here about both, but I don't have links.
Maybe the entertainment industry makes it easier for people who have a UFO experience talk about it, and there's little doubt that it contributes to hoaxes, but IMO, it's not reasonable to think that every unexplained case is the result of the entertainment industry or M.I.C. playing on the minds of the gullible.
I hope you're not suggesting that I believe the entertainment and MIC cause every unexplained case???
 
What exactly is the "this" that you're talking about? The Paracast? The History Channel? The publishers? The guests? I'm not clear on exactly what or who you are referring to. It seems like you're attempting to use one large brush to paint everything with the same label. Not so sure that's wise.
The post you linked to explains in detail. To snippet one sentence makes your questions seem reasonable above, but I've posted quite a bit that you should not need to ask such things. You swim in a fishbowl with ET-UFO's believing you have proof, and our entire media industry with the MIC since 1947 put you there along with the hoaxing, imo. Yes, in many ways this is far more powerful than religion, because your faith allows you to find "the proof" thanks to the fishbowl you grew-up in. You followed the bait, the bread crumbs, and they got you hook line and sinker.

The reason I definitely believe this, is you will NOT admit the possibility you might be wrong. You do not maintain the strong possibility that there is no such thing as ET-UFO's flying around here. You are #1 just as Constance is #1 in the religious fervor of firm belief well beyond faith. For you ET-UFO's here on Spaceship Earth is reality. The fishbowl definitely supports you! They want you! You are part of their Brain Trust to work their agendas. There are many agendas too, so you can be manipulated for many reasons. IMO.
 
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You're moving the goal posts. Right now there is no physical evidence available that proves anything.

Plenty of physical evidence proves a physical, technological phenomenon, which isn't "just in our head." There is Socorro and many other landing trace cases, for which there's no good prosaic explanation.

You can say "they" are hiding it, but we still have no evidence.

There's testimony from people whose physical evidence was confiscated....
 
Plenty of physical evidence proves a physical, technological phenomenon, which isn't "just in our head." There is Socorro and many other landing trace cases, for which there's no good prosaic explanation.



There's testimony from people whose physical evidence was confiscated....

And there's stuff that points to Socorro being a hoax. And of course "they" took the physical evidence, otherwise the story would be boring.
 
And there's stuff that points to Socorro being a hoax.

Oh sure, the college students, none of whom actually came forward or were even named. Or maybe you refer to Klass's claims, refuted by KDR. Socorro was real and shows it isn't "just in our heads."

And of course "they" took the physical evidence, otherwise the story would be boring.

Credible witnesses such as Marcel jr, reported this.
 
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