Russia Attacks Georgia, WAR

[Capnkumquat]

Yes, as I said, I may change my views once more informed. However, The Bush part will probably stay the same. Having Bush speak about war period is like drinking piss out of an ass. America can be the only one to fuk up? Not in my book.

As a proud, reasonably happy and well adjusted American...It pains me to say you are corrects...sigh....

We have signed away our right to shake our self righteous, preemptive war making, duplicitous, demogogin' fingers at anyone. The best we can say to Russia is..."don't make the same mistake we made...get out with your dignity, your honor, and the lives of your young men. Emperialism will make everyone, the world over, lose trust, and respect for you."

I hate drinkin' piss out of an ass....PTUEE!

 

[Kieran]

Freedom for Georgia and Stability in the world.

In your last post you said

[/font]

Elaboate about the OiL. And what do you mean by "So Called Democracy" ?


[/font]

This sentance leads me to believe that you are a little bit Naieve.

In terms of Diplomacy on the world stage the EU cannot cut the mustard ! Totaly inneffectual. I dont even think that they care theyre just going through the motions.

Sarkozy he should just change his name to Cosy because thats how he wants it. Why has not give a staunch press statement denouncing this Outrage ?

The only people who are helping are the Americans ! Because they have got Balls !

They helped us with the Marshall Plan in 1947 and now they are helping Georgia.

God Bless America and all her citizens !
[/quote..................................FREEDOM AT WHAT PRICE,THERE IS NOTTING WRONG WITH AMERICA TRYING TO BRING FREEDOM TO A COUNTRY BUT WHAT TYPE OF FREEDOM DOES IT WANT IT TO HAVE,....DOES IT WANT GEORGIA TO BE A STATE THAT AGREES AND SUPPORTS AMERICA,OR DOES IT WANT A GEORGIA THAT IS FREE AND MAKES ITS OWN DECISIONS WITHOUNT ANY HELP FROM THE WEST,.......STABILITY IN THE WORLD IS NOT ACHIEVED BY AMERICA BY TELLING THE RUSSIANS WANT TO DO NO BIG COUNTRY IS GOING TO BE PUSHED AROUND BY ANOTHER BIG COUNTRY IT IS THAT SIMPLE., EASY WITH THE RHETORIC YOU MIGHT ACHIEVE SOMETHING GEORGIA WAS FOOLISH TO START A WAR AND RUSSIANS WERE FOOLISH TO ESCLATE IT FURTHER.......OIL FLOWS TO THE WEST FROM GEORGIA SO IT HAS SOME STRATEGIC VALUE TO IT THAT IS WHAT I MEANT....EU IS NOT SARKOZY HE IS BUT A FOOL WITH AN EGO, HE MIGHT BE THE PRESIDENT OF THE EU BUT THERE IS OVER TWENTY COUNTRIES WITHIN THE EU WHO MIGHT BWE ABLE TO HOLD TALKS WITH BOTH SIDES....COME ON AMERICA'S FOREIGN POLICY HAS ALOT TO BE DESIRED IT CANT EVEN TELL THE TRUTH TO IT'S OWN PEOPLE AND YOU TRUST THEM

 

[Live at the Witch Trials]

Freedom for Georgia and Stability in the world.

In your last post you said

[/font]

Elaboate about the OiL. And what do you mean by "So Called Democracy" ?


[/font]

This sentance leads me to believe that you are a little bit Naieve.

In terms of Diplomacy on the world stage the EU cannot cut the mustard ! Totaly inneffectual. I dont even think that they care theyre just going through the motions.

Sarkozy he should just change his name to Cosy because thats how he wants it. Why has not give a staunch press statement denouncing this Outrage ?

The only people who are helping are the Americans ! Because they have got Balls !

They helped us with the Marshall Plan in 1947 and now they are helping Georgia.

God Bless America and all her citizens !
[/quote..................................FREEDOM AT WHAT PRICE,THERE IS NOTTING WRONG WITH AMERICA TRYING TO BRING FREEDOM TO A COUNTRY BUT WHAT TYPE OF FREEDOM DOES IT WANT IT TO HAVE,....DOES IT WANT GEORGIA TO BE A STATE THAT AGREES AND SUPPORTS AMERICA,OR DOES IT WANT A GEORGIA THAT IS FREE AND MAKES ITS OWN DECISIONS WITHOUNT ANY HELP FROM THE WEST,.......STABILITY IN THE WORLD IS NOT ACHIEVED BY AMERICA BY TELLING THE RUSSIANS WANT TO DO NO BIG COUNTRY IS GOING TO BE PUSHED AROUND BY ANOTHER BIG COUNTRY IT IS THAT SIMPLE., EASY WITH THE RHETORIC YOU MIGHT ACHIEVE SOMETHING GEORGIA WAS FOOLISH TO START A WAR AND RUSSIANS WERE FOOLISH TO ESCLATE IT FURTHER.......OIL FLOWS TO THE WEST FROM GEORGIA SO IT HAS SOME STRATEGIC VALUE TO IT THAT IS WHAT I MEANT....EU IS NOT SARKOZY HE IS BUT A FOOL WITH AN EGO, HE MIGHT BE THE PRESIDENT OF THE EU BUT THERE IS OVER TWENTY COUNTRIES WITHIN THE EU WHO MIGHT BWE ABLE TO HOLD TALKS WITH BOTH SIDES....COME ON AMERICA'S FOREIGN POLICY HAS ALOT TO BE DESIRED IT CANT EVEN TELL THE TRUTH TO IT'S OWN PEOPLE AND YOU TRUST THEM

First off could you click the preview post button before you submit your reply and judge to yourself if your missive is legible as your post is very badly laid out and it took 3 attempts to read.

A bit of forum ettiquette yes ?

America wants Georgia to be free and guide her own destiny. Georgia has pledged herself to take the Democratic route in her destiny and looks to America as leader of the Democratic world for help in building a sound infrastructure for Democracy to evolve which America Honours this pledge.

Its not a case of America telling Russia what to do. Look at the size of Russia and look at the size of Georgia. Georgia is no bigger than an English County.

Also wouldnt it benefit Russia to have a free and stable democratic country on its boarders ?

Also dont kid yourself about the EU its primerily about trade and it is very much divided.

I am not blind to the Faults of the US or Bush administration but in these circumstances i do trust them yes and definatley over Russia.

Its oh so fashionable to slagg off the US. Sometimes you have to be cruel to be Kind.

Regarding Caspian black liquid gold, so what Russia has infinatley more and isnt it prudent andin the spirit of Capitalism to have more than one available source of any given commodity ?

You talk like the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline is owned by the US when actualy it's only 16% shareholder and thats split between 3 companys. Wheras the the UK owns a 30% stake and the Azerbaijanis 25%.

 

[cottonzway]

Nonsense. The conflict between South Ossetia and Georgia as well as Abkhazia has been on going for many many years.
And the true definition of a Proxy war is Georgia and South Ossetai have a war and both party's are armed and advised by Russia on part of the Ossetians and The USA on the part of Georgia.

Thus both partys are not engaged in Conflict directly but both are guideing the Course of events.
Your Argument dosent stand up as it is Russia Proper who is heavily engaged on behalf of the South Ossetians.

Also Georgia isnt a Puppet of the USA. In my veiw Georgia wants to be part of the west integrating fully with all democratic institutions and her Citizens want to prosper and live in peace also Georgia wants to guide her own destiny. Now what the hell has that got to do with Moscow ?



Now here i was expecting you to enlighten me with some deep insight as to why the USA wants to start a War with Russia but you havent delivered have you.

You just come out with some Biased off the hip statements which are leading me to the conclusion that discourse with you is seemingly pointless.

Also i notice how you are quite fond of Including Israel in this. I would ask you to elaborate as to whats it got to do with the Israelis and what part are they playing but i wont be holding my breath for any Logic.

Good day to you Sir.

Nonsense indeed.

I don’t even know where to start.

Are you familiar with geo-politics? At all. It does not seem like you are. Your whole tirade, along with the even more incoherent rant about “Neo-Cons and Conspiracies” , makes no sense.

Georgia ADMITTED it attacked Russia. Are you aware of who is in the Georgian government/military? I do not think you are because of your answer. Go look for yourself.

If you have to ask why I am talking about Israel, I again have to question your understand of geo-politics and the US foreign policy team. This is very basic stuff. I shouldn’t have to explain the relationship that the US government and the Israeli government have. You would understand this if you knew who were the actual people that are in the Georgian government/military, along with the private companies that are in the region. Look it up for yourself.

I kind of feel like explaining much may not be worth it, unless you maybe look up the US/Israli leadership and the role of US/Israli/NATO politics along with the PEOPLE who are involved. You do not seem informed on this stuff. If you take that personally, then so be it. Maybe you should understand what you are talking about before replying like you understand what you are typing about.

 

[Aaron LeClair]

Thank you Underdog, and better spoken than myself did. But I disagree about one part. I think you are a proud Earthling. Or, a citizen of the universe.

 

[bsvalley]

I just attacked two arby's beef and cheeders. They are quite gud for shit food.

I want Russia to attack the state Georgia. /banjos. The move on to the rest of the USA. Then let Canada invade and save me. Womenz there look better than the 500 pound piece of shits here.

So Aaron if you don't like the women there why don't you just get up and go for a walk and maybe they'll be gone when you get back.,
and Live at witch trials I do hope everything turns out ok for your inlaws.

 

[ddd999]

I think vision is blurred for a lot of people (not only in the US).
Both sides are equally bad theory is BS, it gives people outside of the conflict a sense of clear conscience (“let them kill each other, I don’t care”). Erasing the line between victim and the perpetrator of the crime is very bad indeed.
Distrust towards the US leadership is so strong that even when they do (for whatever reason) the right thing (in this case support for Georgia) they are deemed wrong… and I think Russians are tapping in to that (media war, disinformation, etc).
Strange times … crazy world.

 

[ddd999]

Six days that broke one country - and reshaped the world order
guardian.co.uk - Saturday August 16 2008

Pity Georgia's bedraggled first infantry brigade. And its second. And its hapless navy. For the past few evenings in the foothills of the Southern Caucasus on the outskirts of Joseph Stalin's hometown of Gori, reconnaissance units of Russia's 58th army have been raking through the spoils of war at what was the Georgian army's pride and joy, a shiny new military base inaugurated only last January for the first infantry, the army engineers, and an artillery brigade.

A couple of hours to the west, in the town of Senaki, it's the same picture. A flagship military base, home to the second infantry brigade, is in Russian hands. And down on the Black Sea coast, the radars and installations for Georgia's sole naval base at Poti have been scrupulously pinpointed by the Russians and destroyed.

Gori and Senaki are not ramshackle relics of the old Red Army of the type that litter the landscape of eastern Europe. "These bases have only recently been upgraded to Nato standard," said Matthew Clements, Eurasia analyst at Jane's Information Group. "They have been operationally targeted to seriously degrade the Georgian military." [...]

The "enormous arsenals" are American-made or American-supplied. American money, know-how, planning, and equipment built these bases as part of Washington's drive to bring Nato membership to a small country that is Russia's underbelly.

The American "train and equip" mission for the Georgian military is six years old. It has been destroyed in as many days. And with it, Georgia's Nato ambitions. [...]

If Georgia and Nato are the principal casualties of this week's ruthless display of brute power by Vladimir Putin, the consequences are bigger still, the fallout immense, if uncertain. The regional and the global balance of power looks to have tilted, against the west and in favour of the rising or resurgent players of the east. [...]

As the Russian officers sat on the American stockpiles of machine guns, ammunition, and equipment in Gori, they were savouring a highly unusual scenario. Not since the Afghan war had the Russians seized vast caches of US weaponry. "People are sick to the stomach in Washington," said a former Pentagon official. And the Russians are giddy with success. [...]

"The war in Georgia has put the European order in question," said Alexander Rahr, one of Germany's leading Russia experts and a Putin biographer. "The times are past when you can punish Russia."

That seems to be the view among leading European policymakers who have been scrambling all week to arrange and shore up a fragile ceasefire, risking charges of appeasing the Kremlin. [...]

In Kiev certainly. Ukraine's pro-western prime minister, Viktor Yushchenko, Saaksahvili's fellow colour-revolutionary, is chastened and wary. His firebrand anti-Russian prime minister, Yuliya Tymoshenko, has gone uncharacteristically quiet.

"An invasion of Ukraine by 'peacekeeping tanks' is just a question of time," wrote Aleksandr Sushko, director of Kiev's Institute of Euro-Atlantic Cooperation. "Weimar Russia is completing its transformation into something else. If Russia wins this war, a new order will take shape in Europe which will have no place for Ukraine as a sovereign state."

All around Russia's rim, the former Soviet "captive states" are trembling. Even Belarus, the slavishly loyal "last dictatorship in Europe", went strangely silent, taking days before the regime offered Moscow its support. "Everybody's nervous," said Wilson.

The EU states of the Baltic and Poland are drumming up support for Georgia, with the Polish president Lech Kaczynski declaring that Russia has revealed "its true face". That divides the EU since the French and the Germans refuse to take sides and are scornful of east European "hysteria" towards Russia. Rahr in Berlin says the German and French governments are striving to keep the Poles and the Baltic states well away from any EU-led peace negotiations. It was the Germans and the French who, in April, blunted George Bush's drive to get Georgia into Nato. They will also resist potential US moves to kick Russia out of the G8 or other international bodies. [...]


LINK: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/16/georgia.russia1

 

[Live at the Witch Trials]

Distrust towards the US leadership is so strong that even when they do (for whatever reason) the right thing (in this case support for Georgia) they are deemed wrong…
.

Couldnt have said it better myself.

 

[Live at the Witch Trials]

Nonsense indeed.

I don’t even know where to start.

Are you familiar with geo-politics? At all. It does not seem like you are. Your whole tirade, along with the even more incoherent rant about “Neo-Cons and Conspiracies” , makes no sense.

I am well aware of geo-politics thank you very much.I just dont subscribe to your Neo-Cons theory.
You call it a Tirade I call it an Opinion.

Georgia ADMITTED it attacked Russia. Are you aware of who is in the Georgian government/military? I do not think you are because of your answer. Go look for yourself.

As a Matter of fact Georgia attacked South Ossetia not Russia. South Ossetia is in Internationally recognized Sovereign Georgian Territory not Russian. Go Look for Yourself.

If you have to ask why I am talking about Israel, I again have to question your understand of geo-politics and the US foreign policy team. This is very basic stuff. I shouldn’t have to explain the relationship that the US government and the Israeli government have. You would understand this if you knew who were the actual people that are in the Georgian government/military, along with the private companies that are in the region. Look it up for yourself.

I am well Aware of US foreign policy and its commitment to Israel. I fail see how the Crisis in the Caucasus fits in.
This argument is ill fleshed out and previously i asked you to Elaborate how the Israelis fitted in.
Its like you can only use all of the negative aspects of US foreign policy to further your argument to give it weight.
I dont think your aware of the enormity of the true events taking place in the Caucasus.

Maybe you should understand what you are talking about before replying like you understand what you are typing about.

It's You seem to deal in generalities I think that you would do well to profit by your own advice instead of going round in circles like some maladjusted clockwork toy.

Any how lets be Adult and Agree to Diagree.

 

[Kieran]

Nonsense indeed.

I don’t even know where to start.

Are you familiar with geo-politics? At all. It does not seem like you are. Your whole tirade, along with the even more incoherent rant about “Neo-Cons and Conspiracies” , makes no sense.

Georgia ADMITTED it attacked Russia. Are you aware of who is in the Georgian government/military? I do not think you are because of your answer. Go look for yourself.

If you have to ask why I am talking about Israel, I again have to question your understand of geo-politics and the US foreign policy team. This is very basic stuff. I shouldn’t have to explain the relationship that the US government and the Israeli government have. You would understand this if you knew who were the actual people that are in the Georgian government/military, along with the private companies that are in the region. Look it up for yourself.

I kind of feel like explaining much may not be worth it, unless you maybe look up the US/Israli leadership and the role of US/Israli/NATO politics along with the PEOPLE who are involved. You do not seem informed on this stuff. If you take that personally, then so be it. Maybe you should understand what you are talking about before replying like you understand what you are typing about.

IF you dont agree with his ideas he calls you niave, live at the witch trials really needs to wake up and smell the coffee....i rather he didnt read my posts because he is an idiot who insults an individual just to feel important. Anyway i couldnt be bothered with a guy who has serious lack of knowledge of international affairs

 

[Gene Steinberg]

OK, OK, whether or not you agree with someone, we don't need to know if you regard them as idiotic or not. We are all idiotic in some fashion, so let's tone down the attacks, please, OK?

 

[Live at the Witch Trials]

IF you dont agree with his ideas he calls you niave, live at the witch trials really needs to wake up and smell the coffee....i rather he didnt read my posts because he is an idiot who insults an individual just to feel important. Anyway i couldnt be bothered with a guy who has serious lack of knowledge of international affairs

That's simply untrue. I said that you were a little bit naive and explained why.

I invited you to put across a convincing argument and you failed to convince.

No way do i feel the need to insult an Individual in order to feel important. If i have a disagreement with somebody i am open to change my views if they put across a convincing argument in fact i would be great full.

When you enter a discourse with somebody and all they can do is trot out generalities it's time to give up I guess.

 

[Kieran]

That's simply untrue. I said that you were a little bit naive and explained why.

I invited you to put across a convincing argument and you failed to convince.

No way do i feel the need to insult an Individual in order to feel important. If i have a disagreement with somebody i am open to change my views if they put across a convincing argument in fact i would be great full.

When you enter a discourse with somebody and all they can do is trot out generalities it's time to give up I guess.

My argument couldnt win because you have a biased view.... read your posts if you need to clarify

 

[Live at the Witch Trials]

My argument couldnt win because you have a biased view.... read your posts if you need to clarify

I dont think that I am biased at all though its easy for you to say that isn't it.

Are Russia not being Disproportionate in their Actions ?

Have they brought Law and Order ?

 

[Kieran]

I dont think that I am biased at all though its easy for you to say that isn't it.

Are Russia not being Disproportionate in their Actions ?

Have they brought Law and Order ?

I dont back either country they were both stupid in what they done...it is the civilians who are the losers in all this.

 

[Live at the Witch Trials]

I must say.

A few days ago I think it was Thursday or Friday I have the luxury of being able to go home during my lunch Hour. In all I get to spend 30 minutes at home which means a quick Coffee then its back to work.

That Day as I was at Home during my break My Wife was sat at the Computer and she told me that Russian Tanks were advancing towards Tbilisi.

At this point I couldnt hang around I had to go back to my Job and It was miserable bewlieve you me ! I had no access to News and I didnt know what the Hell was going on I was extremely nervous.

When I finally got Home George W Bush had made a Statement saying Russia must pull back and that Condoleeza Rice was Going to Tbilisi.

The Russians Stopped Short of Tbilisi.

Upon hearing this news I had to lock myself in my Bathroom away from my family and Cry Tears.

Tears of Gladness ! And Tears of Greatfullness.

If Bush had not issued this Statement Georgia would now be a part of the Russian Federation.

I know this sounds hollow if read by Citizens of Iraq or Chile but what can you do ?

Relativity sucks in its coldness and its arbitrariness.

Hope rewarded can change any man.

 

[ddd999]

This just in:

Russia's President Dmitry Medvedev says he signed an order Tuesday recognizing Georgia's breakaway provinces as independent -- a move condemned by the West.

Reactions so far:

NATO Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer said the decision was in "direct violation of numerous U.N. Security Council resolutions."

FRENCH FOREIGN MINISTRY
"Russia's recognition of the separatist Georgian is a regrettable decision.
"We consider that this is a regrettable decision and we reiterate our commitment to the territorial integrality of Georgia."
ANGELA MERKEL - GERMAN CHANCELLOR
"The Russian decision to recognize South Ossetia and Abkhazia was absolutely unacceptable.
"This contradicts principles of territorial integrity as a fundamental right... Dialogue should be maintained with Russia, in a form to be decided at a European Union summit to be held on Monday."
DAVID MILIBAND - BRITISH FOREIGN SECRETARY
"Today's announcement by President (Dmitry) Medvedev that Russia will recognize South Ossetia and Abkhazia is unjustifiable and unacceptable.
"I am holding talks today with international partners and will be visiting Ukraine tomorrow to ensure the widest possible coalition against Russian aggression in Georgia.
"Today's announcement further inflames an already tense situation in the region. We fully support Georgia's independence and territorial integrity, which cannot be changed by decree from Moscow."
BRITISH GOVERNMENT'S FOREIGN OFFICE
"We reject this categorically and reaffirm Georgia's sovereignty and territorial integrity.
"This is contrary to obligations that Russia has repeatedly taken on in (United Nations) Security Council resolutions. It does nothing to improve the prospects for peace in the Caucasus."
FRANCO FRATTINI - ITALIAN FOREIGN MINISTER
"The move does not apply in an international legal framework... An ethnic-based balkanization of the Caucasus is a serious danger for all."
MATTI VANHANEN - FINNISH PRIME MINISTER
"Russia is a member of the OSCE and in it has committed to honor the territorial integrity of the member states... This action is in contradiction, total contradiction, with OSCE's principles."
CARL BILDT - SWEDISH FOREIGN MINISTER
"Russia’s decision to recognize the rebel Georgian provinces of South Ossetia and Abkhazia as independent states was a "deliberate violation of international law.
"Medvedev now dramatically escalated the crisis between Russia and the rest of the world. The decision is also a deliberate violation of international law and basic principles for stability in Europe."
FOREIGN MINISTRY OF CZECH REPUBLIC
"We recognize all of Georgia, South Ossetia and Abkhazia are part of it... Russia is not an impartial player in this conflict."

 

[cottonzway]

Just wait until after the Olympics how the reaction to this will change. Right now, there is a lot of apathy. That will soon change shortly after the Olympics when the media will focus on what they are told what to report. Dangerous times indeed.