stonehart
Paranormal Adept
Ok I will do give me a min or two to post it
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The Moonship UFO
- Thread starter Posey Gilbert
- Start date
Free episodes:
Ok I will do give me a min or two to post it
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
Put down the torches and the pitchforks folks!
I think this is one of those things they call "a teachable moment" for UFO buffs, would-be researchers, and fans. I feel a great object lesson could come from the revelations contained in this thread. I'll elaborate further after I feel Posey has had reasonable chance to clarify himself.
Well at least he had the good grace to accept the evidence, and he posted of of my favourite personal quotes, ask a question look ignorant, dont ask remain so.
"Finding answers" sums the Paracast up nicely.
The thing is, as soon as i saw that pic, i knew its history, as Trained said it was done to death at ATS and other UFO sites, Given Poseys clearly deep interest in the genre, he really should have known this, to have missed the deconstruction of this particular matter, given his self avowed connection to the case is pretty sloppy.
This genre tends to be polarised by hard core believers and hard core skeptics, i like to think the Paracast is a buffer zone, where both sides can get a reality check, so i'm not sure the pitchforks and torches are warranted, (but thats just my opinion).
I'd like to think the Paracst can continue to be a useful tool for posey in sorting the wheat from the chaff on his own journey in this realm.
To be honest i think this gaff has shown a lack of research that, given his involvement in this case is a poor show, and i suspect that people are going to be more demanding of a higher standard of proof in any further postings he may choose to make.
But thats what we do here, we have some of the best minds on both sides of the debate, and we tend to get to the bottom of things one way or the other.
"Finding answers" sums the Paracast up nicely.
The thing is, as soon as i saw that pic, i knew its history, as Trained said it was done to death at ATS and other UFO sites, Given Poseys clearly deep interest in the genre, he really should have known this, to have missed the deconstruction of this particular matter, given his self avowed connection to the case is pretty sloppy.
This genre tends to be polarised by hard core believers and hard core skeptics, i like to think the Paracast is a buffer zone, where both sides can get a reality check, so i'm not sure the pitchforks and torches are warranted, (but thats just my opinion).
I'd like to think the Paracst can continue to be a useful tool for posey in sorting the wheat from the chaff on his own journey in this realm.
To be honest i think this gaff has shown a lack of research that, given his involvement in this case is a poor show, and i suspect that people are going to be more demanding of a higher standard of proof in any further postings he may choose to make.
But thats what we do here, we have some of the best minds on both sides of the debate, and we tend to get to the bottom of things one way or the other.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
I agree mike. One thing I am genuinely concerned with here is that it might be possible some people are actually living with serious mental health issues. Issues that may not be their fault. Things we say on here may affect such a person in a good or a bad way. Anyone here who is sure and satisfied that they are of sound strong mind should be careful of trodding on someone who cannot claim the same. I am including myself in this.
Although some people in this field no doubt make stuff up just for attention. There are people who make stuff up to make money.
Then there are people who may have real experiences or for one reason or another actually believe they have had experiences when in fact it may be other reasons behind what they experience.
It is this last category that I think we should be careful around - either because there is no need to kick someone who is already down, or it may be possible to affect their mental stability.
I may be being overly cautious here but I intend to tread lightly.....
Although some people in this field no doubt make stuff up just for attention. There are people who make stuff up to make money.
Then there are people who may have real experiences or for one reason or another actually believe they have had experiences when in fact it may be other reasons behind what they experience.
It is this last category that I think we should be careful around - either because there is no need to kick someone who is already down, or it may be possible to affect their mental stability.
I may be being overly cautious here but I intend to tread lightly.....
stonehart
Paranormal Adept
Face palm at myself ..... I have to admit that is true.
However we should also be careful not to feed such delusions... a fine line I guess.
Well Stoney, aint life just that fine line anyway? I think you know precisely where I was going there. I don't want to be in a gang going after someone unless I really, truly know they fucking deserve it! lol
stonehart
Paranormal Adept
lol thanks man
Well you can always Google you know who and read up for yourself, then you will see why I saw red so to speak. But yes I should have thought about the mental stability as trainedobserver pointed this out to me anyway.
On a side note I have been sick in bed for four days now and I think my mental stability is going all to hell
going stir crazy cooped up here.I agree with both of you.
And the point about not feeding delusions is one im familiar with, i had a disturbed sister in law, who thought the CIA was feeding her flat with radioactive water, she would take relatives into the toilet, and show them the "glowing" bowl as proof.
Some of them took the path of least resistance and agreed it glowed, this did not do her any favours, it only enhanced and fed the delusion for her.
I think its better to be honest and tell the truth, in this case that the bowl didnt glow.
I dont know whats happening with Posey, I have observed a pattern of having "answers" in a field thats best catagorised as having few to none, and that always has me wary.
I'd like to think the audience here will do what it always does, listen with an open mind, but also demand the usual standard of proof thats the norm here.
I think thats the kindest and most honest way to proceed
And the point about not feeding delusions is one im familiar with, i had a disturbed sister in law, who thought the CIA was feeding her flat with radioactive water, she would take relatives into the toilet, and show them the "glowing" bowl as proof.
Some of them took the path of least resistance and agreed it glowed, this did not do her any favours, it only enhanced and fed the delusion for her.
I think its better to be honest and tell the truth, in this case that the bowl didnt glow.
I dont know whats happening with Posey, I have observed a pattern of having "answers" in a field thats best catagorised as having few to none, and that always has me wary.
I'd like to think the audience here will do what it always does, listen with an open mind, but also demand the usual standard of proof thats the norm here.
I think thats the kindest and most honest way to proceed
Posey Gilbert
Paranormal Maven
Well, I liked all of your comments, and am glad you speak them freely.
As I said I posted my pictures at my first site Pieces Of An Enigma that was in the early 90s.
Then at my new site Temple Of The Infidel in 2000 after Geocities changed policies.
They came from NASA as the documentation shows and the picture is the picture that came with it.
I did the work and blew it up and light blasted it for details.
Everything you see there was there in the picture I got.
I saw it no where but on my site for years.
Then I herd about Bob Dean and sent the bastard the blown up picture I had made.
From then on I started to see it every where.
I heard no complaints nor had any confrontations over it in all the years I had it at my sites.
You tell me by looking at that NASA photo absent any info but what was on the Internet at that time, you would know what you really
Now that having been said you guys seem to think I am a UFO buff like you are, but that is a wrong assumption, I stopped reading UFO and Abduction books long ago, except for the last two that I was lead to by my Muse.
I had experiences first and then I realized what I'd thought were vivid dreams were true, I started to look for answers as to what the hell had been going on in my life.
Then at 40 my mother suddenly reveals to me, that as she was growing up she saw the same thing's and got acutely upset because I had not killed the damned thing as she had.
What you must realize in her days these things were called hints, spirits, ghost, and or demons.
It is only today that "They" are called ETs or UTs.
As I have often said I don't know what the hell they are or where they come from, or why "They" are here.
Then finally I find a place where I have got one question answered for me, about something that I was curious about, and that for me is a great gift to which I am grateful, one down, but a billion to go.
Then comes these veiled threats about putting me down, and if I lie what will happen to me, oh the hubris
Bull Shit like that means about as much to me as your opinions of my experiences do.
As I've said before they mean nothing to me.
The fact is they are lower than bull shit to me, I can grow something with bull shit, but as for your disbelief or belief I can't even wipe my ass with that.
I need answers not asinine prattle, or empty threats.
As was originated at my first site, "I don't want to believe... It's much better to know."
Yes, Angel I am the author of your motto, asshole.
Sure you can throw me out of here if you wish that's fine with me.
I've been thrown out of every UFO Group I've ever been in, and it was always by the Believers.
Those that want to know, and desperately seek the things I've seen.
Then find it too scary, too fantastic to want to believe.
Sorry I don't bring to you hopes and dreams, I bring to you the terrible gut wrenching truth.
So I don't care what the Blind Pussy thinks or says, and I do not fear the Great and Powerful and Woo Woo Scary Angel Loren either I don't believe in angels.
If you want to hear the truth fine I'll stay, if you don't then throw me the fuck out and stop me from wasting what little time I may have left among goddamned idiots.
The one thing I assure you, you will not do is run me out.
Be careful what you wish for my friends.
"May you find what you seek, and get only that which you truly deserve."
Posey Gilbert the Infidel.
Thing is, the Truth can be an answer.......
But an answer isnt always a truth.............
Its an important distinction and one that i believe describes the general feel of the paracast audience.
Both Angel and pixel have opinions ive not always agreed with, but i always address the substance of that opinion and not the persons expressing them, thus terms like "asshole" are totally out of line.
We are dealing with an enigmatic subject here, the methodology of doing so, is a key factor if the truth, and not just an answer is to be obtained.
Youve made some mistakes Posey, and youve acknowledged them which counts for something in my book, It speaks to me of someone who IS seeking the truth and not just answers. Hang in there. You may come to understand this audience while never replacing Ralph, may replicate his function as a reality check. I honestly think this is the value you can take from the honest feedback you can find here.
The moonship example should serve as a good example of the synergy such a community can provide.
I would like to think we can provide a sympathetic ear, and be a resource filter that helps you sort the wheat from the chaff in your own journey of learning.
Lets look at the moonship example
For a long while you thought this was a good picture, when i first replied it was mundane in nature you rejected that opinion, then i provided a pictoral comparison that to your credit you accepted as "truth". This process is the value we the Paracast audience have to offer you, and imo its one of the best resources you could ever hope to find on the internet.
We will keep you honest, but if you are seeking the "truth" thats exactly what you want in your journey, not a bunch of yes men who say "oh yeah man... a moonship.... cool"
You are free.....
You can take it or leave it, you can find an audience that will "see" a moonship like you did, or you can embrace the search for truth that most of us here do
Either way, it was good to hear your stories, but my instincts tell me you, like us would prefer to work for a truthful reality, than a comfortable fantasy
You say youve stopped reading books, but you clearly have kept using the internet, a far more dynamic format than any book ever was, thus you should have been familiar with the breakdown of the moonship photo. The failing in this instance is totally yours, you must either keep up and be informed or retire fom the genre, as youve learned ignorance seeps in when you dont do so.
If nothing else youve learned a valuable lesson from the moonship matter, and i contend thats the very same value the Paracast audience has to offer you in regards to this enigma.
Take it or leave it, its up to you
But an answer isnt always a truth.............
Its an important distinction and one that i believe describes the general feel of the paracast audience.
Both Angel and pixel have opinions ive not always agreed with, but i always address the substance of that opinion and not the persons expressing them, thus terms like "asshole" are totally out of line.
We are dealing with an enigmatic subject here, the methodology of doing so, is a key factor if the truth, and not just an answer is to be obtained.
Youve made some mistakes Posey, and youve acknowledged them which counts for something in my book, It speaks to me of someone who IS seeking the truth and not just answers. Hang in there. You may come to understand this audience while never replacing Ralph, may replicate his function as a reality check. I honestly think this is the value you can take from the honest feedback you can find here.
The moonship example should serve as a good example of the synergy such a community can provide.
I would like to think we can provide a sympathetic ear, and be a resource filter that helps you sort the wheat from the chaff in your own journey of learning.
Lets look at the moonship example
For a long while you thought this was a good picture, when i first replied it was mundane in nature you rejected that opinion, then i provided a pictoral comparison that to your credit you accepted as "truth". This process is the value we the Paracast audience have to offer you, and imo its one of the best resources you could ever hope to find on the internet.
We will keep you honest, but if you are seeking the "truth" thats exactly what you want in your journey, not a bunch of yes men who say "oh yeah man... a moonship.... cool"
You are free.....
You can take it or leave it, you can find an audience that will "see" a moonship like you did, or you can embrace the search for truth that most of us here do
Either way, it was good to hear your stories, but my instincts tell me you, like us would prefer to work for a truthful reality, than a comfortable fantasy
You say youve stopped reading books, but you clearly have kept using the internet, a far more dynamic format than any book ever was, thus you should have been familiar with the breakdown of the moonship photo. The failing in this instance is totally yours, you must either keep up and be informed or retire fom the genre, as youve learned ignorance seeps in when you dont do so.
If nothing else youve learned a valuable lesson from the moonship matter, and i contend thats the very same value the Paracast audience has to offer you in regards to this enigma.
Take it or leave it, its up to you
stonehart
Paranormal Adept
I like this post.
As I have always said I want to know not believe, on top of that I am a strong protagonist for academic honesty in this field (god knows it needs it) so I hope Posey you can see why we see red if we feel we are being taken for a ride.
I do find it funny you should say you authored the motto I use for I got it off my physics teacher when I was 17 and that is a long time ago now
But then again some knowledge is intrinsic and many a good idea has been had by many unconnected people.
I will say I can be harsh but do not take it personally please, I spent a long time at University studying Philosophy and Religion all for an Anthropology degree on top of my engineering qualifications so I can get a bit brutal and will call people out if I smell BS as I had some rough debates back then it hardened me up some what (I left in my 4th year as I had had enough at that point for on top of engineering that made for a good six and a half years study).
The main reason I left the field is if I had not I would have been labeled a nutter for I am a proponent of the idea that civilization is much older than we state academically, so I find it some what amusing that many sites are being found that date to around or before 11,000BCE (*cough,cough* Göbekli Tepe for example) but that's another story for another time. I also have to admit I like sound engineering and music work much better than an ivory tower.
so as for what you say here you can see why my response is what it is below.
"Then comes these veiled threats about putting me down, and if I lie what will happen to me, oh the hubris
Bull Shit like that means about as much to me as your opinions of my experiences do".
My response is:
This lets you know the sort of person who is reading your posts and I am not the only academic out there and far from the most intelligent of them at that by a long shot.
"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." - Albert Einstein
"The search for truth is more precious than its possession." - Albert Einstein
Far better quotes than the one I have used for years but the one I use has a personal connection to it.
as for the Bertrand Russell quote it fits this place well some times
So lets start again shall we?
Post your story's etc but frame them such that they are for debate for in the end as Mike says "the Truth can be an answer.......But an answer isnt always a truth"
Posey, no-one wants you to leave this forum. I like reading your stuff, even though I don't know what to make of it. To me it's all a bit like people who complain about swearing or nudity on TV. If you don't like something - don't bloody well look!
So, here in these forums there are people like me who wish to hear what you have to say so I may make up my own mind about you. I don't need anyone else censoring stuff for me, If I don't like something I wont read/watch it. It is that simple and should be that simple for everyone else that comes 'here'.
That said, this is indeed The Paracast and in the spirit of that great show, a good standard of evidence is required and if it just does not exist then people can still decide for themselves with what they read. Of course you say yourself Posey that you cannot prove any of this but nor are you seeking to convert people to a set of beliefs, unlike the religous door-knocker types.
Funny thing is, during my whole 38 years of life, every single religous person who knocked on my door asking if 'I knew Jesus....' was American! Not Canadian or European but from the good ole U.S of A! Every single time! I don't know what to make of that fact. Usually Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) with their neatly pressed white shirts and black ties, the women dressed smartly and modestly. In fact, many of the women were 'mighty fine' (say that with an old wild west accent, of course) and they no doubt get picked for door-knocking duty!
I used to invite these people in, partly just to show some hospitality to visitors from abroad (we are like that here) but for me also, it was to try and get them to explain all the galaxy sized holes in their beliefs.
They have a bank of wishy-washy answers that are worthy of any politician's spin doctor. When I lived in the states I was amazed at the number of different little churches in even a small town. The choice of 'flavour' of Christianity alone is staggering. It reminds me of competing burger chains along the main drag in Odessa, Texas. As long as no-one comes here saying 'this is it, this explains it all....' then pretty much anything else goes as far as I'm concerned.
There is a huge demand for beliefs and a huge supply of all sorts of beliefs. It is a buyer's market out there folks. Choose wisely!
So, here in these forums there are people like me who wish to hear what you have to say so I may make up my own mind about you. I don't need anyone else censoring stuff for me, If I don't like something I wont read/watch it. It is that simple and should be that simple for everyone else that comes 'here'.
That said, this is indeed The Paracast and in the spirit of that great show, a good standard of evidence is required and if it just does not exist then people can still decide for themselves with what they read. Of course you say yourself Posey that you cannot prove any of this but nor are you seeking to convert people to a set of beliefs, unlike the religous door-knocker types.
Funny thing is, during my whole 38 years of life, every single religous person who knocked on my door asking if 'I knew Jesus....' was American! Not Canadian or European but from the good ole U.S of A! Every single time! I don't know what to make of that fact. Usually Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) with their neatly pressed white shirts and black ties, the women dressed smartly and modestly. In fact, many of the women were 'mighty fine' (say that with an old wild west accent, of course) and they no doubt get picked for door-knocking duty!
I used to invite these people in, partly just to show some hospitality to visitors from abroad (we are like that here) but for me also, it was to try and get them to explain all the galaxy sized holes in their beliefs.
They have a bank of wishy-washy answers that are worthy of any politician's spin doctor. When I lived in the states I was amazed at the number of different little churches in even a small town. The choice of 'flavour' of Christianity alone is staggering. It reminds me of competing burger chains along the main drag in Odessa, Texas. As long as no-one comes here saying 'this is it, this explains it all....' then pretty much anything else goes as far as I'm concerned.
There is a huge demand for beliefs and a huge supply of all sorts of beliefs. It is a buyer's market out there folks. Choose wisely!
Mormons lol I used to have fun with them when they would come door knocking.
V
Voyager
Guest
Mormons. They were knocking at my door in the morning. I asked, who is there? She said: "You know us." Once again I said, who are you: "Mormons." She tried to open my door, which was locked! I told them I didn't need to be bothered. I had hoped they wouldn't return after I asked them why they referred to God as he. It makes more sense to me that the feminine would be the creative force. They just stared at me in bewilderment. They remind me of a dog chasing its own tail.
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
The case of Posey Gilbert has all the aspects of a excellent Ufological cautionary tale. I had thought to compose a rant about how this whole Moonship UFO thread illustrates everything that is wrong with pop Ufology from faulty reasoning to the willingness to present or accept things without proper evidence amongst other things and I still may.
Posey, I honestly think you would be better served to frame your writing and present it as fiction rather than fact. I think you could find readers. Based on what you have presented in this forum over the past months, I for one cannot take anything that you say seriously. Based on what you've said, I cannot trust your standards of evidence or your ability to tell fantasy from reality. It seems you have added more to the UFO myth than anything else through your efforts. I for one just am not interested in that any longer.
Posey, I honestly think you would be better served to frame your writing and present it as fiction rather than fact. I think you could find readers. Based on what you have presented in this forum over the past months, I for one cannot take anything that you say seriously. Based on what you've said, I cannot trust your standards of evidence or your ability to tell fantasy from reality. It seems you have added more to the UFO myth than anything else through your efforts. I for one just am not interested in that any longer.
P
pixelsmith
Guest
well said. I personally do not believe any story from Posey is true. They may have threads of truth running thru them like the people he saw, but that they vanish or some such thing smells like pure bullshit. I think it is because of these threads of truth he can justify everything as true. Posey, I really believe you need some counseling.
wait a minute... somewhere here you stated that she told you that you had also killed one of "the damned things".
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
That's just it Posey. How do we tell what is truth and what isn't? I can't peer back in time to your childhood, all I can do is look at what is happening now. I see you either unwilling or unable to recognize the futility of attributing any credibility to frauds like Butch W. I see you presenting a known misidentification come hoax and claiming to be the originator of it and then back peddling.
I have no doubt that UFOs exist and that people have had and continue to have encounters with them and their occupants. In my estimation you are not a reliable source of information about those things though. You seem to have become lost in the landscape of the UFO Myth while looking to make sense of your experiences. I can empathize with that to some degree but at some point you have to come out of the desert so to speak.
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
Posey, your moonship page says the photo was taken by Apollo 11.
It was Apollo 12. The photo number A512-50-7346 on the back of your photo indicates that it is from Apollo 12.
What motivated you to purchase A512-50-7346 from NASA? Where did you see or hear about it to know to order it?
Did you ever view the other photos in the series? If so, why not? This would have given you invaluable information about what the object was and its close proximity to Earth rather than the Moon.
When did you send Bob Dean the information about the photo? Do you have any correspondence from him concerning it?
It was Apollo 12. The photo number A512-50-7346 on the back of your photo indicates that it is from Apollo 12.
What motivated you to purchase A512-50-7346 from NASA? Where did you see or hear about it to know to order it?
Did you ever view the other photos in the series? If so, why not? This would have given you invaluable information about what the object was and its close proximity to Earth rather than the Moon.
When did you send Bob Dean the information about the photo? Do you have any correspondence from him concerning it?