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The Official Paracast Political Thread! — Part Two
- Thread starter Gene Steinberg
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Have you ever actually sat down and watched any Isis recruitment propaganda ?
Its the same rhetoric
But its make Islam great again instead of america
It speaks to the same grievances, You are marginalized, your share of the pie is smaller than you deserve
We will give you more pie, we will get rid of those who have competed for the pie, stolen your share.
Come to the caliphate/movement, you will no longer be the forgotten man/woman
The messages speak to those who have less access to the resources they feel they deserve
Again its easter island all over again.
Its the same rhetoric
But its make Islam great again instead of america
It speaks to the same grievances, You are marginalized, your share of the pie is smaller than you deserve
We will give you more pie, we will get rid of those who have competed for the pie, stolen your share.
Come to the caliphate/movement, you will no longer be the forgotten man/woman
The messages speak to those who have less access to the resources they feel they deserve
Again its easter island all over again.
Tyger
Paranormal Adept
Wow! You guys have been tearing up the turf posting. 
I came on with 251 posts in front of me - no way I can get in edgewise so I'll just proceed on my own tack - per usual. 
Interestingly, there were a few things Trump said during the campaign that were exactly what Bernie Sanders was saying.
But it's the long view. What is all this that is taking place? Some great posts imo. Somebody was mentioning how Trump - or what he represents - let's call it Trumpism - is a worldwide phenomenon. I'll go along with that.
I'd like to share a great article from July. Maybe some of you are familar with it. It posits an extraordinary scenario that may very well be accurate. The writer is just playing with a possibility - but it does appear that the election of Trump plays to Putin's wish to weaken the EU (via Brexit - which in another article I read and linked to here had indicated that Putin was involved in that) and isolate NATO (via Trump - in many ways Hillary Clinton was the last person Putin wanted as US president).
I am giving the full text with high-lighting because I think it's a brilliant piece of 'history forward' writing. [P.S. The comments section is excellent. Lots of good critique.]
History tells us what may happen next with Brexit & Trump by Tobias Stone July 23, 2016
LINK: History tells us what may happen next with Brexit & Trump
TEXT: "It seems we’re entering another of those stupid seasons humans impose on themselves at fairly regular intervals. I am sketching out here opinions based on information, they may prove right, or may prove wrong, and they’re intended just to challenge and be part of a wider dialogue.
"My background is archaeology, so also history and anthropology. It leads me to look at big historical patterns. My theory is that most peoples’ perspective of history is limited to the experience communicated by their parents and grandparents, so 50–100 years. To go beyond that you have to read, study, and learn to untangle the propaganda that is inevitable in all telling of history. In a nutshell, at university I would fail a paper if I didn’t compare at least two, if not three opposing views on a topic. Taking one telling of events as gospel doesn’t wash in the comparative analytical method of research that forms the core of British academia. (I can’t speak for other systems, but they’re definitely not all alike in this way).
"So zooming out, we humans have a habit of going into phases of mass destruction, generally self imposed to some extent or another. This handy list shows all the wars over time. Wars are actually the norm for humans, but every now and then something big comes along. I am interested in the Black Death, which devastated Europe. The opening of Boccaccio’s Decameron describes Florence in the grips of the Plague. It is as beyond imagination as the Somme, Hiroshima, or the Holocaust. I mean, you quite literally can’t put yourself there and imagine what it was like. For those in the midst of the Plague it must have felt like the end of the world.
"But a defining feature of humans is their resilience. To us now it seems obvious that we survived the Plague, but to people at the time it must have seemed incredible that their society continued afterwards. Indeed, many takes on the effects of the Black Death are that it had a positive impact in the long term. Well summed up here: 'By targeting frail people of all ages, and killing them by the hundreds of thousands within an extremely short period of time, the Black Death might have represented a strong force of natural selection and removed the weakest individuals on a very broad scale within Europe,'…In addition, the Black Death significantly changed the social structure of some European regions. Tragic depopulation created the shortage of working people. This shortage caused wages to rise. Products prices fell too. Consequently, standards of living increased. For instance, people started to consume more food of higher quality.”
"But for the people living through it, as with the World Wars, Soviet Famines, Holocaust, it must have felt inconceivable that humans could rise up from it. The collapse of the Roman Empire, Black Death, Spanish Inquisition, Thirty Years War, War of the Roses, English Civil War… it’s a long list. Events of massive destruction from which humanity recovered and move on, often in better shape.
"At a local level in time people think things are fine, then things rapidly spiral out of control until they become unstoppable, and we wreak massive destruction on ourselves. For the people living in the midst of this it is hard to see happening and hard to understand. To historians later it all makes sense and we see clearly how one thing led to another. During the Centenary of the Battle of the Somme I was struck that it was a direct outcome of the assassination of an Austrian Arch Duke in Bosnia. I very much doubt anyone at the time thought the killing of a European royal would lead to the death of 17 million people.
"My point is that this is a cycle. It happens again and again, but as most people only have a 50–100 year historical perspective they don’t see that it’s happening again. As the events that led to the First World War unfolded, there were a few brilliant minds who started to warn that something big was wrong, that the web of treaties across Europe could lead to a war, but they were dismissed as hysterical, mad, or fools, as is always the way, and as people who worry about Putin, Brexit, and Trump are dismissed now.
"Then after the War to end all Wars, we went and had another one. Again, for a historian it was quite predictable. Lead people to feel they have lost control of their country and destiny, people look for scapegoats, a charismatic leader captures the popular mood, and singles out that scapegoat. He talks in rhetoric that has no detail, and drums up anger and hatred. Soon the masses start to move as one, without any logic driving their actions, and the whole becomes unstoppable.
"That was Hitler, but it was also Mussolini, Stalin, Putin, Mugabe, and so many more. Mugabe is a very good case in point. He whipped up national anger and hatred towards the land owning white minority (who happened to know how to run farms), and seized their land to redistribute to the people, in a great populist move which in the end unravelled the economy and farming industry and left the people in possession of land, but starving. See also the famines created by the Soviet Union, and the one caused by the Chinese Communists last century in which 20–40 million people died. It seems inconceivable that people could create a situation in which tens of millions of people die without reason, but we do it again and again.
"But at the time people don’t realise they’re embarking on a route that will lead to a destruction period. They think they’re right, they’re cheered on by jeering angry mobs, their critics are mocked. This cycle, the one we saw for example from the Treaty of Versaille, to the rise of Hitler, to the Second World War, appears to be happening again. But as with before, most people cannot see it because:
1. They are only looking at the present, not the past or future
2. They are only looking immediately around them, not at how events connect globally
3. Most people don’t read, think, challenge, or hear opposing views
"Trump is doing this in America. Those of us with some oversight from history can see it happening. Read this brilliant, long essay in the New York magazine to understand how Plato described all this, and it is happening just as he predicted. Trump says he will Make America Great Again, when in fact America is currently great, according to pretty well any statistics. He is using passion, anger, and rhetoric in the same way all his predecessors did — a charismatic narcissist who feeds on the crowd to become ever stronger, creating a cult around himself. You can blame society, politicians, the media, for America getting to the point that it’s ready for Trump, but the bigger historical picture is that history generally plays out the same way each time someone like him becomes the boss.
"On a wider stage, zoom out some more, Russia is a dictatorship with a charismatic leader using fear and passion to establish a cult around himself. Turkey is now there too. Hungary, Poland, Slovakia are heading that way, and across Europe more Trumps and Putins are waiting in the wings, in fact funded by Putin, waiting for the popular tide to turn their way.
"We should be asking ourselves what our Archduke Ferdinand moment will be. How will an apparently small event trigger another period of massive destruction. We see Brexit, Trump, Putin in isolation. The world does not work that way — all things are connected and affecting each other. I have pro-Brexit friends who say ‘oh, you’re going to blame that on Brexit too??’ But they don’t realise that actually, yes, historians will trace neat lines from apparently unrelated events back to major political and social shifts like Brexit.
"Brexit — a group of angry people winning a fight — easily inspires other groups of angry people to start a similar fight, empowered with the idea that they may win. That alone can trigger chain reactions. A nuclear explosion is not caused by one atom splitting, but by the impact of the first atom that splits causing multiple other atoms near it to split, and they in turn causing multiple atoms to split. The exponential increase in atoms splitting, and their combined energy is the bomb. That is how World War One started and, ironically how World War Two ended.
"An example of how Brexit could lead to a nuclear war could be this:
Brexit in the UK causes Italy or France to have a similar referendum. Le Pen wins an election in France. Europe now has a fractured EU. The EU, for all its many awful faults, has prevented a war in Europe for longer than ever before. The EU is also a major force in suppressing Putin’s military ambitions. European sanctions on Russia really hit the economy, and helped temper Russia’s attacks on Ukraine (there is a reason bad guys always want a weaker European Union). Trump wins in the US. Trump becomes isolationist, which weakens NATO. He has already said he would not automatically honour NATO commitments in the face of a Russian attack on the Baltics.
"With a fractured EU, and weakened NATO, Putin, facing an ongoing economic and social crisis in Russia, needs another foreign distraction around which to rally his people. He funds far right anti-EU activists in Latvia, who then create a reason for an uprising of the Russian Latvians in the East of the country (the EU border with Russia). Russia sends ‘peace keeping forces’ and ‘aid lorries’ into Latvia, as it did in Georgia, and in Ukraine. He annexes Eastern Latvia as he did Eastern Ukraine (Crimea has the same population as Latvia, by the way).
"A divided Europe, with the leaders of France, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, and others now pro-Russia, anti-EU, and funded by Putin, overrule calls for sanctions or a military response. NATO is slow to respond: Trump does not want America to be involved, and a large part of Europe is indifferent or blocking any action. Russia, seeing no real resistance to their actions, move further into Latvia, and then into Eastern Estonia and Lithuania. The Baltic States declare war on Russia and start to retaliate, as they have now been invaded so have no choice. Half of Europe sides with them, a few countries remain neutral, and a few side with Russia. Where does Turkey stand on this? How does ISIS respond to a new war in Europe? Who uses a nuclear weapon first?
"This is just one Arch Duke Ferdinand scenario. The number of possible scenarios are infinite due to the massive complexity of the many moving parts. And of course many of them lead to nothing happening. But based on history we are due another period of destruction, and based on history all the indicators are that we are entering one.
"It will come in ways we can’t see coming, and will spin out of control so fast people won’t be able to stop it. Historians will look back and make sense of it all and wonder how we could all have been so naïve. How could I sit in a nice café in London, writing this, without wanting to run away. How could people read it and make sarcastic and dismissive comments about how pro-Remain people should stop whining, and how we shouldn’t blame everything on Brexit. Others will read this and sneer at me for saying America is in great shape, that Trump is a possible future Hitler (and yes, Godwin’s Law. But my comparison is to another narcissistic, charismatic leader fanning flames of hatred until things spiral out of control). It’s easy to jump to conclusions that oppose pessimistic predictions based on the weight of history and learning. Trump won against the other Republicans in debates by countering their claims by calling them names and dismissing them. It’s an easy route but the wrong one.
"Ignoring and mocking the experts , as people are doing around Brexit and Trump’s campaign, is no different to ignoring a doctor who tells you to stop smoking, and then finding later you’ve developed incurable cancer. A little thing leads to an unstoppable destruction that could have been prevented if you’d listened and thought a bit. But people smoke, and people die from it. That is the way of the human.
"So I feel it’s all inevitable. I don’t know what it will be, but we are entering a bad phase. It will be unpleasant for those living through it, maybe even will unravel into being hellish and beyond imagination. Humans will come out the other side, recover, and move on. The human race will be fine, changed, maybe better. But for those at the sharp end — for the thousands of Turkish teachers who just got fired, for the Turkish journalists and lawyers in prison, for the Russian dissidents in gulags, for people lying wounded in French hospitals after terrorist attacks, for those yet to fall, this will be their Somme.
"What can we do? Well, again, looking back, probably not much. The liberal intellectuals are always in the minority. See Clay Shirky’s Twitter Storm on this point. The people who see that open societies, being nice to other people, not being racist, not fighting wars, is a better way to live, they generally end up losing these fights. They don’t fight dirty. They are terrible at appealing to the populace. They are less violent, so end up in prisons, camps, and graves. We need to beware not to become divided (see: Labour party), we need to avoid getting lost in arguing through facts and logic, and counter the populist messages of passion and anger with our own similar messages. We need to understand and use social media. We need to harness a different fear. Fear of another World War nearly stopped World War 2, but didn’t. We need to avoid our own echo chambers. Trump and Putin supporters don’t read the Guardian, so writing there is just reassuring our friends. We need to find a way to bridge from our closed groups to other closed groups, try to cross the ever widening social divides.
(Perhaps I’m just writing this so I can be remembered by history as one of the people who saw it coming.)
I came on with 251 posts in front of me - no way I can get in edgewise so I'll just proceed on my own tack - per usual. Interestingly, there were a few things Trump said during the campaign that were exactly what Bernie Sanders was saying.
But it's the long view. What is all this that is taking place? Some great posts imo. Somebody was mentioning how Trump - or what he represents - let's call it Trumpism - is a worldwide phenomenon. I'll go along with that.
I'd like to share a great article from July. Maybe some of you are familar with it. It posits an extraordinary scenario that may very well be accurate. The writer is just playing with a possibility - but it does appear that the election of Trump plays to Putin's wish to weaken the EU (via Brexit - which in another article I read and linked to here had indicated that Putin was involved in that) and isolate NATO (via Trump - in many ways Hillary Clinton was the last person Putin wanted as US president).
I am giving the full text with high-lighting because I think it's a brilliant piece of 'history forward' writing. [P.S. The comments section is excellent. Lots of good critique.]
History tells us what may happen next with Brexit & Trump by Tobias Stone July 23, 2016
LINK: History tells us what may happen next with Brexit & Trump
TEXT: "It seems we’re entering another of those stupid seasons humans impose on themselves at fairly regular intervals. I am sketching out here opinions based on information, they may prove right, or may prove wrong, and they’re intended just to challenge and be part of a wider dialogue.
"My background is archaeology, so also history and anthropology. It leads me to look at big historical patterns. My theory is that most peoples’ perspective of history is limited to the experience communicated by their parents and grandparents, so 50–100 years. To go beyond that you have to read, study, and learn to untangle the propaganda that is inevitable in all telling of history. In a nutshell, at university I would fail a paper if I didn’t compare at least two, if not three opposing views on a topic. Taking one telling of events as gospel doesn’t wash in the comparative analytical method of research that forms the core of British academia. (I can’t speak for other systems, but they’re definitely not all alike in this way).
"So zooming out, we humans have a habit of going into phases of mass destruction, generally self imposed to some extent or another. This handy list shows all the wars over time. Wars are actually the norm for humans, but every now and then something big comes along. I am interested in the Black Death, which devastated Europe. The opening of Boccaccio’s Decameron describes Florence in the grips of the Plague. It is as beyond imagination as the Somme, Hiroshima, or the Holocaust. I mean, you quite literally can’t put yourself there and imagine what it was like. For those in the midst of the Plague it must have felt like the end of the world.
"But a defining feature of humans is their resilience. To us now it seems obvious that we survived the Plague, but to people at the time it must have seemed incredible that their society continued afterwards. Indeed, many takes on the effects of the Black Death are that it had a positive impact in the long term. Well summed up here: 'By targeting frail people of all ages, and killing them by the hundreds of thousands within an extremely short period of time, the Black Death might have represented a strong force of natural selection and removed the weakest individuals on a very broad scale within Europe,'…In addition, the Black Death significantly changed the social structure of some European regions. Tragic depopulation created the shortage of working people. This shortage caused wages to rise. Products prices fell too. Consequently, standards of living increased. For instance, people started to consume more food of higher quality.”
"But for the people living through it, as with the World Wars, Soviet Famines, Holocaust, it must have felt inconceivable that humans could rise up from it. The collapse of the Roman Empire, Black Death, Spanish Inquisition, Thirty Years War, War of the Roses, English Civil War… it’s a long list. Events of massive destruction from which humanity recovered and move on, often in better shape.
"At a local level in time people think things are fine, then things rapidly spiral out of control until they become unstoppable, and we wreak massive destruction on ourselves. For the people living in the midst of this it is hard to see happening and hard to understand. To historians later it all makes sense and we see clearly how one thing led to another. During the Centenary of the Battle of the Somme I was struck that it was a direct outcome of the assassination of an Austrian Arch Duke in Bosnia. I very much doubt anyone at the time thought the killing of a European royal would lead to the death of 17 million people.
"My point is that this is a cycle. It happens again and again, but as most people only have a 50–100 year historical perspective they don’t see that it’s happening again. As the events that led to the First World War unfolded, there were a few brilliant minds who started to warn that something big was wrong, that the web of treaties across Europe could lead to a war, but they were dismissed as hysterical, mad, or fools, as is always the way, and as people who worry about Putin, Brexit, and Trump are dismissed now.
"Then after the War to end all Wars, we went and had another one. Again, for a historian it was quite predictable. Lead people to feel they have lost control of their country and destiny, people look for scapegoats, a charismatic leader captures the popular mood, and singles out that scapegoat. He talks in rhetoric that has no detail, and drums up anger and hatred. Soon the masses start to move as one, without any logic driving their actions, and the whole becomes unstoppable.
"That was Hitler, but it was also Mussolini, Stalin, Putin, Mugabe, and so many more. Mugabe is a very good case in point. He whipped up national anger and hatred towards the land owning white minority (who happened to know how to run farms), and seized their land to redistribute to the people, in a great populist move which in the end unravelled the economy and farming industry and left the people in possession of land, but starving. See also the famines created by the Soviet Union, and the one caused by the Chinese Communists last century in which 20–40 million people died. It seems inconceivable that people could create a situation in which tens of millions of people die without reason, but we do it again and again.
"But at the time people don’t realise they’re embarking on a route that will lead to a destruction period. They think they’re right, they’re cheered on by jeering angry mobs, their critics are mocked. This cycle, the one we saw for example from the Treaty of Versaille, to the rise of Hitler, to the Second World War, appears to be happening again. But as with before, most people cannot see it because:
1. They are only looking at the present, not the past or future
2. They are only looking immediately around them, not at how events connect globally
3. Most people don’t read, think, challenge, or hear opposing views
"Trump is doing this in America. Those of us with some oversight from history can see it happening. Read this brilliant, long essay in the New York magazine to understand how Plato described all this, and it is happening just as he predicted. Trump says he will Make America Great Again, when in fact America is currently great, according to pretty well any statistics. He is using passion, anger, and rhetoric in the same way all his predecessors did — a charismatic narcissist who feeds on the crowd to become ever stronger, creating a cult around himself. You can blame society, politicians, the media, for America getting to the point that it’s ready for Trump, but the bigger historical picture is that history generally plays out the same way each time someone like him becomes the boss.
"On a wider stage, zoom out some more, Russia is a dictatorship with a charismatic leader using fear and passion to establish a cult around himself. Turkey is now there too. Hungary, Poland, Slovakia are heading that way, and across Europe more Trumps and Putins are waiting in the wings, in fact funded by Putin, waiting for the popular tide to turn their way.
"We should be asking ourselves what our Archduke Ferdinand moment will be. How will an apparently small event trigger another period of massive destruction. We see Brexit, Trump, Putin in isolation. The world does not work that way — all things are connected and affecting each other. I have pro-Brexit friends who say ‘oh, you’re going to blame that on Brexit too??’ But they don’t realise that actually, yes, historians will trace neat lines from apparently unrelated events back to major political and social shifts like Brexit.
"Brexit — a group of angry people winning a fight — easily inspires other groups of angry people to start a similar fight, empowered with the idea that they may win. That alone can trigger chain reactions. A nuclear explosion is not caused by one atom splitting, but by the impact of the first atom that splits causing multiple other atoms near it to split, and they in turn causing multiple atoms to split. The exponential increase in atoms splitting, and their combined energy is the bomb. That is how World War One started and, ironically how World War Two ended.
"An example of how Brexit could lead to a nuclear war could be this:
Brexit in the UK causes Italy or France to have a similar referendum. Le Pen wins an election in France. Europe now has a fractured EU. The EU, for all its many awful faults, has prevented a war in Europe for longer than ever before. The EU is also a major force in suppressing Putin’s military ambitions. European sanctions on Russia really hit the economy, and helped temper Russia’s attacks on Ukraine (there is a reason bad guys always want a weaker European Union). Trump wins in the US. Trump becomes isolationist, which weakens NATO. He has already said he would not automatically honour NATO commitments in the face of a Russian attack on the Baltics.
"With a fractured EU, and weakened NATO, Putin, facing an ongoing economic and social crisis in Russia, needs another foreign distraction around which to rally his people. He funds far right anti-EU activists in Latvia, who then create a reason for an uprising of the Russian Latvians in the East of the country (the EU border with Russia). Russia sends ‘peace keeping forces’ and ‘aid lorries’ into Latvia, as it did in Georgia, and in Ukraine. He annexes Eastern Latvia as he did Eastern Ukraine (Crimea has the same population as Latvia, by the way).
"A divided Europe, with the leaders of France, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, and others now pro-Russia, anti-EU, and funded by Putin, overrule calls for sanctions or a military response. NATO is slow to respond: Trump does not want America to be involved, and a large part of Europe is indifferent or blocking any action. Russia, seeing no real resistance to their actions, move further into Latvia, and then into Eastern Estonia and Lithuania. The Baltic States declare war on Russia and start to retaliate, as they have now been invaded so have no choice. Half of Europe sides with them, a few countries remain neutral, and a few side with Russia. Where does Turkey stand on this? How does ISIS respond to a new war in Europe? Who uses a nuclear weapon first?
"This is just one Arch Duke Ferdinand scenario. The number of possible scenarios are infinite due to the massive complexity of the many moving parts. And of course many of them lead to nothing happening. But based on history we are due another period of destruction, and based on history all the indicators are that we are entering one.
"It will come in ways we can’t see coming, and will spin out of control so fast people won’t be able to stop it. Historians will look back and make sense of it all and wonder how we could all have been so naïve. How could I sit in a nice café in London, writing this, without wanting to run away. How could people read it and make sarcastic and dismissive comments about how pro-Remain people should stop whining, and how we shouldn’t blame everything on Brexit. Others will read this and sneer at me for saying America is in great shape, that Trump is a possible future Hitler (and yes, Godwin’s Law. But my comparison is to another narcissistic, charismatic leader fanning flames of hatred until things spiral out of control). It’s easy to jump to conclusions that oppose pessimistic predictions based on the weight of history and learning. Trump won against the other Republicans in debates by countering their claims by calling them names and dismissing them. It’s an easy route but the wrong one.
"Ignoring and mocking the experts , as people are doing around Brexit and Trump’s campaign, is no different to ignoring a doctor who tells you to stop smoking, and then finding later you’ve developed incurable cancer. A little thing leads to an unstoppable destruction that could have been prevented if you’d listened and thought a bit. But people smoke, and people die from it. That is the way of the human.
"So I feel it’s all inevitable. I don’t know what it will be, but we are entering a bad phase. It will be unpleasant for those living through it, maybe even will unravel into being hellish and beyond imagination. Humans will come out the other side, recover, and move on. The human race will be fine, changed, maybe better. But for those at the sharp end — for the thousands of Turkish teachers who just got fired, for the Turkish journalists and lawyers in prison, for the Russian dissidents in gulags, for people lying wounded in French hospitals after terrorist attacks, for those yet to fall, this will be their Somme.
"What can we do? Well, again, looking back, probably not much. The liberal intellectuals are always in the minority. See Clay Shirky’s Twitter Storm on this point. The people who see that open societies, being nice to other people, not being racist, not fighting wars, is a better way to live, they generally end up losing these fights. They don’t fight dirty. They are terrible at appealing to the populace. They are less violent, so end up in prisons, camps, and graves. We need to beware not to become divided (see: Labour party), we need to avoid getting lost in arguing through facts and logic, and counter the populist messages of passion and anger with our own similar messages. We need to understand and use social media. We need to harness a different fear. Fear of another World War nearly stopped World War 2, but didn’t. We need to avoid our own echo chambers. Trump and Putin supporters don’t read the Guardian, so writing there is just reassuring our friends. We need to find a way to bridge from our closed groups to other closed groups, try to cross the ever widening social divides.
(Perhaps I’m just writing this so I can be remembered by history as one of the people who saw it coming.)
Last edited:
Well look at the sydney riots, some american made a short animated film that insulted their prophet
Innocence of Muslims - Wikipedia
They went berserk here, injuring a police horse and several officers, caused panicked citizens to flee the central business district. They smashed up a police car and shop windows.
good luck making peace with that sort of irrational anger and aggression.
I still cant my head around how they could justify this behaviour
That they would consider it OK to injure people with no relation to this movie, is an example of why many believe they are socially incompatible with our values
a 13 min animated film sparked this
Reactions to Innocence of Muslims - Wikipedia
Your definition of the word peace is incompatible with Islams
Peace in Islamic philosophy
The Arabic word salaam (سلام) ("secured, pacified, submitted") has the same root as the word Islam.[1] One Islamic interpretation is that individual personal peace is attained by utterly submitting to Allah.
For you peace is agreeing to disagree, in islam its a different definition, there can be no peace unless you submit to its ideology
Last edited by a moderator:
Ezechiel
Paranormal Adept
Unfortunately you nailed it.
A quote that's been hammered in my head since... forever: 'Those that forget the past are condemned to relive it'.
The devil is always in the detail
I want peace, you want peace, Islam is the religion of peace. we must be compatible then right ?
But we need to examine the definition of the word peace in Islam
According to Islam there will be an era in which justice, plenty, abundance, well-being, security, peace, and brotherhood will prevail among humanity, and one in which people will experience love, self-sacrifice, tolerance, compassion, mercy, and loyalty. Muhammad says that this blessed period will be experienced through the mediation of the Mahdi, who will come in the end times to save the world from chaos, injustice, and moral collapse. He will eradicate godless ideologies and bring an end to the prevailing injustice. Moreover, he will make religion like it was in the days of Muhammad, cause the Qur'an's moral teachings to prevail among humanity, and establish peace and well-being throughout the world
Peace in Islamic philosophy - Wikipedia
When the Qur'ans moral teachings prevail among humanity, when you submit to islam, then you will know peace as they define it.
Until you do you are an unbeliever and the Qur'an has specific instructions on how to deal with you.
The Jihadis genuinely believe with all their heart and soul that they are the good guys, that you the unbeliever are the bad guys holding the world back from era of justice ,plenty, abundance, well-being, security, peace, and brotherhood that is the ideal world
There can be no compromise, no agree to disagree scenario, no peace..... Until you join them
And sometimes when you are dealing with such opposing world views all you can do is separate them
Oil is hydrophobic, no getting around it
I want peace, you want peace, Islam is the religion of peace. we must be compatible then right ?
But we need to examine the definition of the word peace in Islam
According to Islam there will be an era in which justice, plenty, abundance, well-being, security, peace, and brotherhood will prevail among humanity, and one in which people will experience love, self-sacrifice, tolerance, compassion, mercy, and loyalty. Muhammad says that this blessed period will be experienced through the mediation of the Mahdi, who will come in the end times to save the world from chaos, injustice, and moral collapse. He will eradicate godless ideologies and bring an end to the prevailing injustice. Moreover, he will make religion like it was in the days of Muhammad, cause the Qur'an's moral teachings to prevail among humanity, and establish peace and well-being throughout the world
Peace in Islamic philosophy - Wikipedia
When the Qur'ans moral teachings prevail among humanity, when you submit to islam, then you will know peace as they define it.
Until you do you are an unbeliever and the Qur'an has specific instructions on how to deal with you.
The Jihadis genuinely believe with all their heart and soul that they are the good guys, that you the unbeliever are the bad guys holding the world back from era of justice ,plenty, abundance, well-being, security, peace, and brotherhood that is the ideal world
There can be no compromise, no agree to disagree scenario, no peace..... Until you join them
And sometimes when you are dealing with such opposing world views all you can do is separate them
Oil is hydrophobic, no getting around it
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Tyger
Paranormal Adept
None of this should really be a surprise - Nixon was making overtures to the Vietnamese, Reagan was dealing with the Ayatollah - and so it goes, now Trump with Putin.
Surprise! Trump was a Putin puppet all along
LINK: Surprise! Trump was a Putin puppet all along
REPORT: FBI Just Got A Warrant To Investigate Trump’s Russian Server
LINK: REPORT: FBI Just Got A Warrant To Investigate Trump's Russian Server
Surprise! Trump was a Putin puppet all along
LINK: Surprise! Trump was a Putin puppet all along
REPORT: FBI Just Got A Warrant To Investigate Trump’s Russian Server
LINK: REPORT: FBI Just Got A Warrant To Investigate Trump's Russian Server
Tyger
Paranormal Adept
Democracies end when they are too democratic. And right now, America is a breeding ground for tyranny. by Andrew Sullivan
LINK: America Has Never Been So Ripe for Tyranny
LINK: America Has Never Been So Ripe for Tyranny
And again look at the following in the context of Trumps promises
According to Islam there will be an era in which justice, plenty, abundance, well-being, security, peace, and brotherhood will prevail among humanity, and one in which people will experience love, self-sacrifice, tolerance, compassion, mercy, and loyalty. Muhammad says that this blessed period will be experienced through the mediation of the Mahdi, who will come in the end times to save the world from chaos, injustice, and moral collapse. He will eradicate godless ideologies and bring an end to the prevailing injustice. Moreover, he will make religion like it was in the days of Muhammad, cause the Qur'an's moral teachings to prevail among humanity, and establish peace and well-being throughout the world
Moreover, he will make religion like it was in the days of Muhammad aka make religion great again.........
Its the same narrative
As the worlds population gets more and more congested, people get less of the pie, more marginalized and more susceptible to these messages
The easter islanders then began to compete with each other more and more fiercely for an ever-declining volume of natural resources; vendettas multiplied, intertribal warfare flared, and a pall of hostility and fear descended on the island. As the trees vanished, the islanders were unable to build boats to escape to other islands: they became trapped in their own hell, doomed to fight each other in perpetuity for the last crumbs that the barren land could offer
According to Islam there will be an era in which justice, plenty, abundance, well-being, security, peace, and brotherhood will prevail among humanity, and one in which people will experience love, self-sacrifice, tolerance, compassion, mercy, and loyalty. Muhammad says that this blessed period will be experienced through the mediation of the Mahdi, who will come in the end times to save the world from chaos, injustice, and moral collapse. He will eradicate godless ideologies and bring an end to the prevailing injustice. Moreover, he will make religion like it was in the days of Muhammad, cause the Qur'an's moral teachings to prevail among humanity, and establish peace and well-being throughout the world
Moreover, he will make religion like it was in the days of Muhammad aka make religion great again.........
Its the same narrative
As the worlds population gets more and more congested, people get less of the pie, more marginalized and more susceptible to these messages
The easter islanders then began to compete with each other more and more fiercely for an ever-declining volume of natural resources; vendettas multiplied, intertribal warfare flared, and a pall of hostility and fear descended on the island. As the trees vanished, the islanders were unable to build boats to escape to other islands: they became trapped in their own hell, doomed to fight each other in perpetuity for the last crumbs that the barren land could offer
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Tyger
Paranormal Adept
This is the kind of behavior Trump's antics and hate speech have given 'permission' - and in this story we hear nothing about what the consequences were to the harrasser. 
‘Go back to Asia!’: Trump supporter grabs woman–police arrive and handcuff the victim
LINK: 'Go back to Asia!': Trump supporter grabs woman--police arrive and handcuff the victim
‘Go back to Asia!’: Trump supporter grabs woman–police arrive and handcuff the victim
LINK: 'Go back to Asia!': Trump supporter grabs woman--police arrive and handcuff the victim
Tyger
Paranormal Adept
Grabbing at straws - 'Faithless' Electors
The one scenario that could still get Hillary into the White House
LINK: http://nypost.com/2016/11/09/the-one-scenario-that-could-still-get-hillary-into-the-white-house/
The one scenario that could still get Hillary into the White House
LINK: http://nypost.com/2016/11/09/the-one-scenario-that-could-still-get-hillary-into-the-white-house/
Tyger
Paranormal Adept
"Trump has bitten off more than he can chew; like the Brexiteers he never thought he'd really win, he wanted to be there sniping and taking cheap shots at Hillary in opposition. He has moderated his tone considerably and has little actual support among the Republicans in Congress."
The Democrats have enough in the Senate to mount a filibuster. This will not be clear sailing for Trump. A complicated scenario is playing out as we speak I do believe.
Trump goes to trial in a week or two regarding Trump U. Civil suit I understand but a RICO charge is possible - and if convicted, that's a felony (I believe) and he can't stay on as president.
I know next to nothing about Vice-President-Elect Pence. [Edit: Ah - one person calls Pence more scary than Trump - says he is a member of the 'Christian Taliban'. Oh dear! Not real, of course, just the jist.]
The Democrats have enough in the Senate to mount a filibuster. This will not be clear sailing for Trump. A complicated scenario is playing out as we speak I do believe.
Trump goes to trial in a week or two regarding Trump U. Civil suit I understand but a RICO charge is possible - and if convicted, that's a felony (I believe) and he can't stay on as president.
I know next to nothing about Vice-President-Elect Pence. [Edit: Ah - one person calls Pence more scary than Trump - says he is a member of the 'Christian Taliban'. Oh dear! Not real, of course, just the jist.]
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Tyger
Paranormal Adept
The President-elect faces court date in fraud case
LINK: The President-elect faces court date in fraud case
TEXT: "After an election, a president-elect has an enormous amount of work to do. The period between Election Day and Inauguration Day flies by, and an incoming leader has to assemble a team, receive policy briefings, put an agenda in place, and attend a seemingly endless stream of meetings.
"In Donald Trump’s case, there’s another part of his upcoming schedule that most presidents-elect don’t have to worry about – because most presidents-elect haven’t been accused of committing fraud. Politico reported yesterday:
Before Donald Trump raises his right hand to take the oath of office in January, he’s set for a less-auspicious swearing-in: taking the witness stand in his own defense in a federal court civil trial over alleged fraud in his Trump University real estate seminar program.
"Trump faces a legal ordeal no president-elect has ever encountered: juggling defending himself before a jury with preparing for the vast challenges a political novice will face in assuming the presidency. American voters didn’t seem to care about Trump’s allegedly fraudulent “university” scheme, but the president-elect stands accused of running an ugly scam, bilking customers/students out of quite a bit of money. Many of the victims of Trump’s alleged con filed a class-action lawsuit, and jury selection is due to begin on Nov. 28 in San Diego.
"The Republican will be the first president-elect to defend himself in court ahead of his inauguration. District Court Judge Gonzalo Curiel, the target of racist attacks from Trump during the campaign, will oversee the proceedings.
"Making matters worse for the incoming president, this isn’t the only Trump-related case to keep an eye on.
recently reported, there are literally dozens of pending lawsuits surrounding Trump and his business enterprises that don’t simply go away because Americans elected him.
"Trump faces significant open litigation tied to his businesses: angry members at his Jupiter, Fla. golf course say they were cheated out of refunds on their dues and a former employee at the same club claims she was fired after reporting sexual harassment…. Trump is also defending lawsuits tied to his campaign. A disgruntled GOP political consultant sued for $4 million saying Trump defamed her. Another suit, a class action, says the campaign violated consumer protection laws by sending unsolicited text messages.
"If elected, the open lawsuits will tag along with Trump. He would not be entitled to immunity, and could be required to give depositions or even testify in open court. That could chew up time and expose a litany of uncomfortable private and business dealings to the public.
"Note, none of these cases include the lawsuits Trump threatened to file during the campaign, including vows to go after the many women who accused him of sexual misconduct.
"These controversies also don’t include the IRS audit of Trump’s finances, which remains unresolved, and which may or may not exist. (It’s an open question as to whether or not the Republican simply made up the audit; neither he nor his team have ever substantiated the claims.)
"Remember, America, this is the man you elected.
"In the campaign’s closing weeks, Trump routinely said it would be a national “disgrace” if Hillary Clinton won and faced legal problems after the election – an argument many of his followers found compelling.
"One wonders if they appreciate the irony."
LINK: The President-elect faces court date in fraud case
TEXT: "After an election, a president-elect has an enormous amount of work to do. The period between Election Day and Inauguration Day flies by, and an incoming leader has to assemble a team, receive policy briefings, put an agenda in place, and attend a seemingly endless stream of meetings.
"In Donald Trump’s case, there’s another part of his upcoming schedule that most presidents-elect don’t have to worry about – because most presidents-elect haven’t been accused of committing fraud. Politico reported yesterday:
Before Donald Trump raises his right hand to take the oath of office in January, he’s set for a less-auspicious swearing-in: taking the witness stand in his own defense in a federal court civil trial over alleged fraud in his Trump University real estate seminar program.
"Trump faces a legal ordeal no president-elect has ever encountered: juggling defending himself before a jury with preparing for the vast challenges a political novice will face in assuming the presidency. American voters didn’t seem to care about Trump’s allegedly fraudulent “university” scheme, but the president-elect stands accused of running an ugly scam, bilking customers/students out of quite a bit of money. Many of the victims of Trump’s alleged con filed a class-action lawsuit, and jury selection is due to begin on Nov. 28 in San Diego.
"The Republican will be the first president-elect to defend himself in court ahead of his inauguration. District Court Judge Gonzalo Curiel, the target of racist attacks from Trump during the campaign, will oversee the proceedings.
"Making matters worse for the incoming president, this isn’t the only Trump-related case to keep an eye on.
recently reported, there are literally dozens of pending lawsuits surrounding Trump and his business enterprises that don’t simply go away because Americans elected him.
"Trump faces significant open litigation tied to his businesses: angry members at his Jupiter, Fla. golf course say they were cheated out of refunds on their dues and a former employee at the same club claims she was fired after reporting sexual harassment…. Trump is also defending lawsuits tied to his campaign. A disgruntled GOP political consultant sued for $4 million saying Trump defamed her. Another suit, a class action, says the campaign violated consumer protection laws by sending unsolicited text messages.
"If elected, the open lawsuits will tag along with Trump. He would not be entitled to immunity, and could be required to give depositions or even testify in open court. That could chew up time and expose a litany of uncomfortable private and business dealings to the public.
"Note, none of these cases include the lawsuits Trump threatened to file during the campaign, including vows to go after the many women who accused him of sexual misconduct.
"These controversies also don’t include the IRS audit of Trump’s finances, which remains unresolved, and which may or may not exist. (It’s an open question as to whether or not the Republican simply made up the audit; neither he nor his team have ever substantiated the claims.)
"Remember, America, this is the man you elected.
"In the campaign’s closing weeks, Trump routinely said it would be a national “disgrace” if Hillary Clinton won and faced legal problems after the election – an argument many of his followers found compelling.
"One wonders if they appreciate the irony."
victimized
Skilled Investigator
Trump would have been followed as a predictive forecast for America seeing their secret societies believe in numerology and future forecasts and signs for presidency support.
Obama has therefore been trumped. Wouldn't actually say that it was any great win.
Also Donald means From the Gaelic name Domhnall which means "ruler of the world", composed of the old Celtic elements dumno "world" and val "rule", which is the societies greatest wish.
So if you ever wonder why some Presidents become Presidents, just look at their name sake and you will see why they were chosen.
Obama has therefore been trumped. Wouldn't actually say that it was any great win.
Also Donald means From the Gaelic name Domhnall which means "ruler of the world", composed of the old Celtic elements dumno "world" and val "rule", which is the societies greatest wish.
So if you ever wonder why some Presidents become Presidents, just look at their name sake and you will see why they were chosen.
Tyger
Paranormal Adept
That's my California!
California Does The Right Thing - in the Face of Trump...
LINK: California Does The Right Thing - in the Face of Trump...
California Does The Right Thing - in the Face of Trump...
LINK: California Does The Right Thing - in the Face of Trump...
Tyger
Paranormal Adept
Wonderful post! Thank you!
Sums it up.Well put!
Agree 100%. Nice post.
We for sure have some interesting days ahead. Between wondering if Trump will be indicted on a felony charge and possibly convicted to a Senate with enough Democrats to filibuster - the future will not be smooth.
Then there is the hate speech that has let lose 'deplorable' behavior. We will have to wait and see if it all calms down.
Interesting numbers.
Honestly I don't recall this at all, especially as Clinton wasn't a draft dodger (unless you are talking about his education deferment). It was GW Bush who was the draft dodger who caused comment. That's my memory on the matter.
Certainly among young teens there were altercations the day after the elections. I work in a large campus complex that houses several high schools and middle schools. The high schools had fights/altercations breaking out all day long. Very, very unusual. Clearly election related.
Tyger
Paranormal Adept
Germany’s Chancellor Just Issued A Powerful Warning to Pres. Trump
LINK: Germany's Chancellor Just Issued A Powerful Warning to Pres. Trump
LINK: Germany's Chancellor Just Issued A Powerful Warning to Pres. Trump
Interesting back story to the kid holding the severed head
Here is is with his siblings
Born and raised in Sydney australia, his jihadi mother and father took him to the caliphate and those pictures are the end result.
When the question was raised in the media here, should the Australian govt bring him back home, the overwhelming response was NO.
Both private citizens in the comments pages and media personalitys on TV. Some said i feel for him, but the idea of him going to school with my children..... No Just No
How do you deal with this mindset ?
His wife was an ordinary aussie woman before she met him and converted to Islam. What is it about exposure to this ideology that can have such a toxic effect ?
We dont want our own home grown Jihadis back here, is it any wonder people are shy about importing more islamic people
Is it any wonder Trump made such milage out of the anti Islam promises ?
Here is is with his siblings
Born and raised in Sydney australia, his jihadi mother and father took him to the caliphate and those pictures are the end result.
When the question was raised in the media here, should the Australian govt bring him back home, the overwhelming response was NO.
Both private citizens in the comments pages and media personalitys on TV. Some said i feel for him, but the idea of him going to school with my children..... No Just No
How do you deal with this mindset ?
His wife was an ordinary aussie woman before she met him and converted to Islam. What is it about exposure to this ideology that can have such a toxic effect ?
We dont want our own home grown Jihadis back here, is it any wonder people are shy about importing more islamic people
Is it any wonder Trump made such milage out of the anti Islam promises ?
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So, are these post election riots normal ?
I know some previous presidents have been unpopular to a portion of the electorate, but this seems new
I guess this was always going to happen, its not hard to predict the nasty elements of society would see his win as a license to act out their prejudices.
Could this really devolve into civil war ?
I know some previous presidents have been unpopular to a portion of the electorate, but this seems new
I guess this was always going to happen, its not hard to predict the nasty elements of society would see his win as a license to act out their prejudices.
Could this really devolve into civil war ?
- Status