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pixelsmith
Guest
Lance can't help being the way he is so I will allow him to continue calling me childish names. No harm done.
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the pentagon
- Thread starter nogodhere
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Lance can't help being the way he is so I will allow him to continue calling me childish names. No harm done.
Kieran
Paranormal Adept
The amount of evidence that so far has been posted to this thread, in my mind, is more than enough to fully dismiss all allegations of a conspiracy. Could the plane have done this, or done that, or did it happen this way, total complete waste of time and effort even worrying about it, i believe. I will tell you why I think so.
The total amount of people who died on the plane that crashed into the Pentagon was 125 yes '125' not 1 person or 3 or 5 people.. So that number of deaths by any international standard would be considered very high, countries like Israel or Pakistan who experience terrorism all the time, rarely reach such a death toll in one terrorist attack.
125 people booked this flight to go from Washington to Los Angeles? Did the 125 passengers all vanish into thin air or something? What happened to the plane? Did aliens come down, and abduct the passengers, and never returned them? I shouldn't make such jokes, but just trying my best to outline the foolishness, of what is being suggested by those people, who believe know plane crashed into the Pentagon!
The 125 who died have families, cousins, wifes, kids, gay lovers etc, 125 people left home and never returned there still listed as missing by there loved ones!!!!!To even believe know plane crashed at the Pentagon, you'd have to explain adequately, with concrete evidence, to were the plane went with the 125 passengers that day.
I bet you know explanation will ever be forthcoming on this. I already know the answer anyway's, because DNA evidence has already shown conclusively some of the human remains found at the crash area of the Pentagon, are belonging to some of the people who took that flight, it obvious all 125 were aboard, as non of 125 would have been able to disembark, as it was in flight before it crashed into the Pentagon.
Do you not think if the government was lying the families of all 125 would have come forward denying their loved ones took that plane that day. I could go on more, but surely people here realise by now, how dumb this conspiracy is compared to a conspiracy like JFK, were the evidence there tells Oswald, wasn't the only person firing at Kennedy.
The total amount of people who died on the plane that crashed into the Pentagon was 125 yes '125' not 1 person or 3 or 5 people.. So that number of deaths by any international standard would be considered very high, countries like Israel or Pakistan who experience terrorism all the time, rarely reach such a death toll in one terrorist attack.
125 people booked this flight to go from Washington to Los Angeles? Did the 125 passengers all vanish into thin air or something? What happened to the plane? Did aliens come down, and abduct the passengers, and never returned them? I shouldn't make such jokes, but just trying my best to outline the foolishness, of what is being suggested by those people, who believe know plane crashed into the Pentagon!
The 125 who died have families, cousins, wifes, kids, gay lovers etc, 125 people left home and never returned there still listed as missing by there loved ones!!!!!To even believe know plane crashed at the Pentagon, you'd have to explain adequately, with concrete evidence, to were the plane went with the 125 passengers that day.
I bet you know explanation will ever be forthcoming on this. I already know the answer anyway's, because DNA evidence has already shown conclusively some of the human remains found at the crash area of the Pentagon, are belonging to some of the people who took that flight, it obvious all 125 were aboard, as non of 125 would have been able to disembark, as it was in flight before it crashed into the Pentagon.
Do you not think if the government was lying the families of all 125 would have come forward denying their loved ones took that plane that day. I could go on more, but surely people here realise by now, how dumb this conspiracy is compared to a conspiracy like JFK, were the evidence there tells Oswald, wasn't the only person firing at Kennedy.
Facius_Cardan
Skilled Investigator
.
Conspiracy theories aside, I don't think that the whole, raw truth about what happened on 9/11 will ever be known. There are too many holes in the official version and that originated a plethora of questions and suppositions that go from the intelligent to the outright absurd. The real question is actually about the victims. That makes this event far more important than the JFK assassination (which I firmly believe wasn't the sole work of Lee Harvey Oswald). They were totally innocent and that gives their families the right to know the truth. Many will say that such knowledge won't bring any of them back. That's sadly true. But when a crime of this dimension occurs the concept of justice must prevail and the real guilty parties, whomever they may be, must be put to trial and face the consequences of their actions. If even the concept of justice loses its value then we'll have nothing to fight and live for in this world. The problem is that, ate least to me, such values have been abandoned by most governments a long time ago.
Angel of Ioren
Friendly Skeptic
So then you agree that it was an airplane that flew into the building and not some sort of missile.
Kieran
Paranormal Adept
Many of those so called holes have been answered, i see know conspiracy here. Now I fully accept this event was used to trigger a war in Iraq, to take their oil, but other than i see nothing else. Please expand on your thinking because lot of these so called holes in the official story have proven already to be downright stupid. I might not be able to answer back until tomo, because as you might be aware the champions league semi final is on tonight, so going to watch that.
Ron Collins
Curiously Confused
I will probably regret asking this but does anyone know how many security cameras are pointing in that direction that could have seen it happen? What about other camera's in the area? Maybe not an impact but we should be able to see the airplane in some right?
---------- Post added at 07:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:58 PM ----------
Hey folks, lets dial back the insults or i will close the thread.
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pixelsmith
Guest
There were 85 confirmed tapes seized by the FBI.
Ron Collins
Curiously Confused
The reason I ask is that about 10 websites plus in ever other post Pixel keeps talking about how this building is the most surveilled building in the world. So I am supposed to believe that the NSA building at Fort Meade, the CIA at Langley, the White House in D.C., virtually every prison in the world, Fort Knox, and every casino in Vegas have less security. I don't buy it. Sure perhaps it was in the top 500-600. That said, I am still fairly sure that more than one should have caught site of the airplane. Maybe not the impact but the airplane and its decent should have at least been captured.
I don't know what side of this debate I will eventually land on because I do see some things that do not make sense. For instance why does the FBI hold 85 video recordings that allegedly do not show an impact but never the less are held exempt from disclosure via FOIA. That bothers me. SOME, if true, of the information I found at the pilots for 911 truth site bothers me. Certainly not to the extent it bothers Pixel. But, I think it may actually call into question how the black boxes were functioning and how accurate they are.
Unlike Pixel I have no problem believing that a 757 traveling at 200+mph can knock a hole in a building. I can even conceive of the wings folding in on the fuselage and traveling into the same hole. But I do admit that there are certain areas of this that seem to be at odds with official accounts of the events.
Are there on camera interviews of people that saw the plane hit the pentagon? How many witness testimonies did the FBI record that confirm it was a plane?
Does anyone have that information?
I don't know what side of this debate I will eventually land on because I do see some things that do not make sense. For instance why does the FBI hold 85 video recordings that allegedly do not show an impact but never the less are held exempt from disclosure via FOIA. That bothers me. SOME, if true, of the information I found at the pilots for 911 truth site bothers me. Certainly not to the extent it bothers Pixel. But, I think it may actually call into question how the black boxes were functioning and how accurate they are.
Unlike Pixel I have no problem believing that a 757 traveling at 200+mph can knock a hole in a building. I can even conceive of the wings folding in on the fuselage and traveling into the same hole. But I do admit that there are certain areas of this that seem to be at odds with official accounts of the events.
Are there on camera interviews of people that saw the plane hit the pentagon? How many witness testimonies did the FBI record that confirm it was a plane?
Does anyone have that information?
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pixelsmith
Guest
so... one we have one or two cameras with a frame rate of about 1 frame per second covering our Pentagon? nice.
The WalMart down the street has dozens pointing at one area of the parking lot.
The WalMart down the street has dozens pointing at one area of the parking lot.
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
I don't know what happened and past snarky comments aside, I personally have no favorite alternative conspiracy theory in opposition to the official one.
I watched the events unfold on that day and thought one thing only to be convinced of something else later, and then to only submit to information overload in the end. Many of the questions I have, I simply cannot answer. The general feeling I have coming away from it all is that I am not comfortable saying I believe one way or another about what happened that day. I know that airliners crashed and a bunch of people were killed. That is really all I "know" about it.
On one hand it appears that a small group consisting largely of Saudi Arabians defeated the defenses of the United States, penetrated Pentagon airspace, and struck the building with little more than some planning, box-cutters, and a willingness to die in the process. In the aftermath it appears that an investigation into the attack was delayed, stalled, and hampered for reasons I'm not clear on. These events resulted in the United States invading and occupying countries that were not represented by the nationalities of the attackers. Now, my 86 year old mother has to be scanned and groped to get on an airplane even though she has never owned a box cutter. This viewpoint causes me to question the competency of our leadership, military, and intelligence organizations and my own sanity on several levels and generally just makes me feel bad all over.
But then on the other hand it looks like it may have been a highly organized and well funded international group of highly trained terrorists who orchestrated a devastating world changing attack that day. Luck, mistakes, and a confluence of events allowed them to overcome the defenses of the United States and the Pentagon in particular in a spectacular manner. The resulting timely, thorough, and open investigation led to a strike on Afghanistan and Iraq in an effort to avenge and prevent further attacks with the ultimate goal of bringing the ring leaders to justice. Now, my 86 year old mother has to be scanned and groped to get on an airplane even though she has never traveled outside of the United States and never owned a box cutter..This viewpoint also causes me to question the competency of our leadership, military, and intelligence organizations and my own sanity on several levels and generally just makes me feel bad all over as well.
When will we, stupid fools that we are, stop doubting and just believe that the only valid conspiracy theory has to be the one presented by the government appointed official 911 Commission because that is the only one that makes sense? I am desperately trying to grow a brain so I can do this very thing. My hat is off to those whose sharp minds have sussed out the real truth of the what and why of 911 and stand confident in their knowledge. I envy you immensely. I simply don't know for certain.
I watched the events unfold on that day and thought one thing only to be convinced of something else later, and then to only submit to information overload in the end. Many of the questions I have, I simply cannot answer. The general feeling I have coming away from it all is that I am not comfortable saying I believe one way or another about what happened that day. I know that airliners crashed and a bunch of people were killed. That is really all I "know" about it.
On one hand it appears that a small group consisting largely of Saudi Arabians defeated the defenses of the United States, penetrated Pentagon airspace, and struck the building with little more than some planning, box-cutters, and a willingness to die in the process. In the aftermath it appears that an investigation into the attack was delayed, stalled, and hampered for reasons I'm not clear on. These events resulted in the United States invading and occupying countries that were not represented by the nationalities of the attackers. Now, my 86 year old mother has to be scanned and groped to get on an airplane even though she has never owned a box cutter. This viewpoint causes me to question the competency of our leadership, military, and intelligence organizations and my own sanity on several levels and generally just makes me feel bad all over.
But then on the other hand it looks like it may have been a highly organized and well funded international group of highly trained terrorists who orchestrated a devastating world changing attack that day. Luck, mistakes, and a confluence of events allowed them to overcome the defenses of the United States and the Pentagon in particular in a spectacular manner. The resulting timely, thorough, and open investigation led to a strike on Afghanistan and Iraq in an effort to avenge and prevent further attacks with the ultimate goal of bringing the ring leaders to justice. Now, my 86 year old mother has to be scanned and groped to get on an airplane even though she has never traveled outside of the United States and never owned a box cutter..This viewpoint also causes me to question the competency of our leadership, military, and intelligence organizations and my own sanity on several levels and generally just makes me feel bad all over as well.
When will we, stupid fools that we are, stop doubting and just believe that the only valid conspiracy theory has to be the one presented by the government appointed official 911 Commission because that is the only one that makes sense? I am desperately trying to grow a brain so I can do this very thing. My hat is off to those whose sharp minds have sussed out the real truth of the what and why of 911 and stand confident in their knowledge. I envy you immensely. I simply don't know for certain.
P
pixelsmith
Guest
folding wings and 9 ton jet engines traveling into the same hole, then creating a second perfect hole in concrete 310 away.... whoo whoo... sounds paranormal to me.
Ron Collins
Curiously Confused
Quickly to Lance,
I can believe that only one camera caught the actual impact. But, where are the other videos that show the plane in descent or flying low towards the pentagon? have they been released?
I can believe that only one camera caught the actual impact. But, where are the other videos that show the plane in descent or flying low towards the pentagon? have they been released?
Facius_Cardan
Skilled Investigator
Lacking more data, I have to stick with the official explanation. Nevertheless, that will never stop me from questioning some aspects that seem quite suspicious to me such as:
- How was it possible that 4 planes disappeared from the radar (the transponders were disconnected by the terrorists, so it was explained) and no fighter jets were scrambled to, at least, follow them? That has happened in the US even with small private planes, why not with 4 massive passenger jets? If this was an outright failure from the US defense system why is it that no profound investigation into this security breach has ever been conducted? The US spend more in defense and security than most countries in the world and yet no responsibilities were pointed for this massive failure. In plain terms, some heads should have rolled!
- How is it possible that the FBI announced the discovery of one of the hijackers passports in an almost intact condition when none of the 4 black boxes (fairly more resistant to impact, fire and explosions than a paper item) were recovered from the WTC towers?
- Why have all the surveillance videos from areas around the Pentagon been kept from public viewing until now (the video released some years ago is inconclusive as to what hit the building)?
- The official 911 Commission had few, if any help, from the military, air force and the government. There were hearings held behind closed doors with high ranking government officials. How could that have happened? The main objectives should have been to shed away any shadow of doubt about the tragic events of that September morning and what we obtained was far from satisfying. How could have a terrorist attack of such scale be prepared and executed inside the US and no one held responsible for the failure in properly conducting their jobs in defending the US from such threats?
- After 10 years of war in Afghanistan and Iraq and multiple detentions in shadowy prison camps around the world, how close are we to the whole truth and facts about the 911 events? If the US, as they said, captured some of the people involved in those events, why weren't they brought to justice and properly indicted and put in front of a proper court of law?
In the end do you, as Americans (conspirational or believing in the official version), feel safer than you did on that September day? Do you actually consider that the United States of America have learned their lesson and have actively worked towards preventing future attacks? Do you feel fully satisfied with the results of all the sacrifices you made personally and socially (lives lost in two conflicts since 2001, many liberties lost and an overall change in lifestyle) in the past decade?
I'm not an american, I don't live in the US and have never been there. As a human though I have concerns, because I have a personal admiration for many aspects of your culture and some of the good things you did for humanity throughout your history. But yours is a different country now. The torch of freedom and hope doesn't shine as brightly as it did in the past. Maybe I was fooling myself regarding what your country stood for, but after knowing more about your history and the suspicious events that happened mainly since the end of World War II, I became more bitter regarding how your successive governments have acted both towards the america citizens and the world. I hope you can find the strength to stick with your basic values and get back to an honoured position that made you one of the most admired countries and societies in history.
- How was it possible that 4 planes disappeared from the radar (the transponders were disconnected by the terrorists, so it was explained) and no fighter jets were scrambled to, at least, follow them? That has happened in the US even with small private planes, why not with 4 massive passenger jets? If this was an outright failure from the US defense system why is it that no profound investigation into this security breach has ever been conducted? The US spend more in defense and security than most countries in the world and yet no responsibilities were pointed for this massive failure. In plain terms, some heads should have rolled!
- How is it possible that the FBI announced the discovery of one of the hijackers passports in an almost intact condition when none of the 4 black boxes (fairly more resistant to impact, fire and explosions than a paper item) were recovered from the WTC towers?
- Why have all the surveillance videos from areas around the Pentagon been kept from public viewing until now (the video released some years ago is inconclusive as to what hit the building)?
- The official 911 Commission had few, if any help, from the military, air force and the government. There were hearings held behind closed doors with high ranking government officials. How could that have happened? The main objectives should have been to shed away any shadow of doubt about the tragic events of that September morning and what we obtained was far from satisfying. How could have a terrorist attack of such scale be prepared and executed inside the US and no one held responsible for the failure in properly conducting their jobs in defending the US from such threats?
- After 10 years of war in Afghanistan and Iraq and multiple detentions in shadowy prison camps around the world, how close are we to the whole truth and facts about the 911 events? If the US, as they said, captured some of the people involved in those events, why weren't they brought to justice and properly indicted and put in front of a proper court of law?
In the end do you, as Americans (conspirational or believing in the official version), feel safer than you did on that September day? Do you actually consider that the United States of America have learned their lesson and have actively worked towards preventing future attacks? Do you feel fully satisfied with the results of all the sacrifices you made personally and socially (lives lost in two conflicts since 2001, many liberties lost and an overall change in lifestyle) in the past decade?
I'm not an american, I don't live in the US and have never been there. As a human though I have concerns, because I have a personal admiration for many aspects of your culture and some of the good things you did for humanity throughout your history. But yours is a different country now. The torch of freedom and hope doesn't shine as brightly as it did in the past. Maybe I was fooling myself regarding what your country stood for, but after knowing more about your history and the suspicious events that happened mainly since the end of World War II, I became more bitter regarding how your successive governments have acted both towards the america citizens and the world. I hope you can find the strength to stick with your basic values and get back to an honoured position that made you one of the most admired countries and societies in history.
P
pixelsmith
Guest
oh... the official report that omitted building 7 all together?
The Mineta Testimony: 9/11 Commission Exposed - 911truth.org
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
You are saying it was a "perfect hole." Perfect how? It wasn't perfectly round. Here, salve your fevered brain with one of the explanations offered here. I choose, Landing Gear Elements. Ahhhh.
Ron Collins
Curiously Confused
I am looking at the language of your post. The Citgo gas station says it was determined no to show the impact. OK. i can concede that. But, the flight path you suggest, and I believe would also have to be true, would have taken the plane directly over that station and into the Pentagon. Therefore, to me, it is probable that the language is suggestive of showing something more than just he building or sky. The language in that case (showing nothing I mean) seems to be either "pre-crash" or "post-crash".
---------- Post added at 08:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:45 PM ----------
Also, when determined as evidence, the video I believe becomes property of the government for use in the investigation. I do not believe that private property rights are the issue here. Though, I could be wrong.
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
Building 7 is obviously unimportant to the investigation as it contained nothing of interest and collapsed due to devastating damage caused by the falling towers and raging office fires. The testimony of the late Barry Jennings has obviously been twisted by insane and stupid people. Ignore it, building 7 is of no consequence.
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pixelsmith
Guest
ok.. almost perfect. what do you see laying in that pile could punch a hole like that?
---------- Post added at 07:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:52 PM ----------
Bullshit. It is a very important part of it.
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
Exactly! Do we have any reason at all to believe that the sky above the Pentagon would be monitored by cameras or any other means that could be reviewed? It's just an unreasonable expectation. And if there were cameras, radar, and human observers monitoring the airspace surrounding the headquarters of the United States Department of Defense 24/7 (which is a stretch of the imagination right?) it would be unreasonable to assume that it would even be legal to show those to the general public. Expecting that there would a photo or video of the plane approaching or hitting the Pentagon on 911 is certainly an unwarranted and unreasonable expectation considering the national security implications. Someone might view the footage and figure out how to fly a plane into the damn thing for Pete's sake.