They don't want us to know

[starise]

There seem to be several steps concerning the field of ufos. One of them is in being convinced that something is there.We are not all onboard with that.

If you are sure that something is there then next is deciding what it might or could be. From there we can only surmise as to who is behind it.

Who do you think the "who" is? The only thing I can say with fair certainty is that there seem to be boundaries. Given even the best informed and equipped observers/investigators we are below the place we need to be and " They" seem to like it that way.

The conspiracy people will likely vote that it is the evil government standing in the way. The extraterrestrial crowd will likely say that it is the uber intelligent aliens keeping us in the dark.Do you think it is both?

They seem to be doing it repeatedly/effortlessly with their pinky finger. The best and brightest among us are at a continual loss. I think we can agree there are boundaries that until someone somewhere makes a different decision we will continue to be in the dark.

I have some deeper opinions but I want to hear what you think about advancement in a seemingly dead end subject.

 

[Randall]

All good points and anyone who takes up the subject will arrive at the same conclusions fairly quickly. My view is that until we get some definitive information, we need to do the best with what we have, and that means having a genuine and constructive interest in ufology. What does that mean exactly? At USI it means using critical thinking to foster standards and determine what is reasonable.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

@starise -a lot of good points in your post. For me, the weight of semi-decent evidence, the totality of it, that is what makes me think some UFOs are 'real'.

If the next step after acceptance is worrying about the 'who'. I don't labour that point in my head much at all. Because of the lack of visible outright hostility from a race/races with evidently far superior tech & scientific know-how, I sleep easy as I don't think any visitors are hell-bent on our destruction (or even enslavement).
I agree with the 'it would have happened already' regarding an ET invasion (unless we are being invaded insidiously by airborne gene-engineering nano-bots).

No, for me the most vital part of the whole UFO phenomena is the possibility that UFOs are real-world working proof of science and manufacturing processes that are maybe centuries or more ahead of our best.
People need to realise that it is possible to propel a 30ft diameter saucer at seemingly incredible speeds, incredible accelerations and decelerations. Local inertial fields allowing the contents of the disk to only respond to the 'gravity' on their own ship. Right-angled turns on a dime should crush a disk's contents and pilots. We certainly cannot even approximate this level of manipulation of gravity and inertia. To be able to achieve these effects it stands to reason that there must be onboard and extremely powerful energy source. It must be relatively small and accordingly require an energy source that must be small and able to endure. All these things we currently cannot provide. We cannot come close to it. Look up the respective efficiencies of various methods of say electrical-generation. It is shocking how wasteful all our energy conversion and consumption.
So on board, flying saucers must have small on-board power generators and the fuel required for them. They must be exceedingly efficient and powerful compared with anything humanity can control (H-bombs dont count cos we dont harness the energy for good).

Anyway - the power source and fuel, if required, and the know-how to cheat the distances of the cosmos. If these things are real and one day achievable, then that is the most interesting part of the UFO phenomena by far for me. If it was done wisely, introduction of new cheap energy production could easily benefit all of mankind with shelter, food, medicine and employment. Of that I have no doubt. It could improve and clean up our world no end. I hope if some government really has captured alien vehicles, then I hope they can successfully back-engineer the propulsion and energy tech and importantly, use it enough so everyone knows.

Your idea about boundaries struck a chord with me. I think there can be transgressions that do not cross these boundaries and no-one is going to get hassled over that. However, any noticed transgressions up against any of these 'boundaries' is asking for trouble.

Those boundaries have managed to stay in place only cos they must have been enforced. So I think there are things in whistle-blowing in ufology that will get people in trouble or worse. It does seem that we can get more evidence for UFOs all the time but what good does it do? It's never that quantum leap in evidentiary terms, only more good photos and more good videos and more good eyewitness testimony. There needs to be something to convince the most hardened skeptic and that is a heck of a tall order.

Anything involving the conspiracy side of things will involve subjects over the boundary.

It's the next step that needs to be taken but I don't know exactly how or who by?

p.s Starise - I would like to read some more of you thoughts/writings on topics related to the above and others. There are plenty of forum members willing to take the time to read well thought-out and relevant material, considering the amount of garbage that passes for being something to do with ufology
Yes, indeed keep writing and as deep as you like..(Ooh, Vicar!)-sorry my bawdy UK humour!

 

[Randall]

... Those boundaries have managed to stay in place only cos they must have been enforced. So I think there are things in whistle-blowing in ufology that will get people in trouble or worse ... Anything involving the conspiracy side of things will involve subjects over the boundary.

The above point makes so much sense that it should be glaringly obvious, yet it is so often overlooked or minimized. The only solution I've been able to come up with is to unite those who have seen UFOs for themselves or have studied the topic long enough to become convinced that UFOs ( alien craft ) are real. By doing that we would, in effect, be creating our own boundaries. We wouldn't need them ( whoever they are ) to tell us all about how real UFOs are because we already know, and if we were unified enough, then we might even have some leverage to get into the deeper game as well. The problem is that we're so thinned out and fragmented across the globe that we tend to go unnoticed. In the framework of this discussion, our boundary is limited to each individual rather than a larger collective with a unified voice. So how do we become linked in a manner that will make our boundaries more apparent? I try to do my part here and with USI. An other ideas?

 

[trainedobserver]

It is seems highly unlikely that all UFO phenomena can be attributed to a single source given the variety of the experience and the length of time it has been around. I think it could be a little bit of everything. That is to say they are a mixture of misidentifications, natural phenomena, psychological phenomena, and real manufactured objects.

Who are they? They are highly motivated, well funded, and mission driven, directed by another group not occupying the objects themselves. The manufacture of aircraft, space craft, or dimensional puddle jumpers all require engineers, technicians, financiers, administrators, project managers, janitors, component manufacturers, an educational system, as well as a tremendous supporting infrastructure. The workers have to eat, the water has to flow, the toilets have to flush. Let's not forget there is also a directing and planning body overseeing all of that at some political or military level of organization.

Where are they from? They come from and return to wherever the above support structures exist.

Why are they here? Whatever their purpose it does not involve or require our knowledge, consent, participation, or moral support. I'd say contrary to much of the speculation that gets batted around about their purpose and activity, it has little or nothing to do with human beings, our DNA, the ability to split atoms, or our evolutionary future. It almost certainly has absolutely nothing to do with our consciousness, collective or individual.

 

[Trajanus]

conspiracy people will likely vote that it is the evil government standing in the way.

I don't see them as "evil." There could be good reasons for secrcy.

Do you think it is both?

Sure. The fact that aliens don't show themselves publicly shows they want to be essentially unknown, which raises suspicions about their intentions. As for the government, its secrecy is further reason to fear the worst. It either doesn't know alien plans or has proof they're up to no good. Disclosure may have to wait until they can actually do something about our visitors. Knowledge of a threat they can't yet deal with would only cause panic.

 

[Trajanus]

Why are they here? Whatever their purpose it does not involve or require our knowledge, consent, participation, or moral support.

True.

I'd say contrary to much of the speculation that gets batted around about their purpose and activity, it has little or nothing to do with human beings, our DNA, the ability to split atoms, or our evolutionary future.

Many aliens seem indifferent to humans and only collect water, electricity or plant/animal/soil samples. But you can't say it has nothing to do with humans, or nuclear facilities etc.

It almost certainly has absolutely nothing to do with our consciousness, collective or individual.

Well, if contactee cases are real, they do seem determined to lie to us, or fill us with false ideas.

 

[trainedobserver]

Many aliens seem indifferent to humans and only collect water, electricity or plant/animal/soil samples. But you can't say it has nothing to do with humans, or nuclear facilities etc.
Well, if contactee cases are real, they do seem determined to lie to us, or fill us wit false ideas.

A great deal of it seems to have nothing to do with interacting with human society or creating anything we understand as relationships with humans. Even if, you take the alien abduction stories at face value, and consider that there could be large numbers of human beings who are being subjected to repeated capture, monitoring, and whatever else might be being done to them, it appears we are being used as a resource for something, a means to an end. Ask yourself this question. Do we utilize lab rats because we are interested in the rats themselves? Roll it over in your mind a while. To me, that is scary as all hell.

 

[Trajanus]

A great deal of it seems to have nothing to do with interacting with human society or creating anything we understand as relationships with humans. Even if, you take the alien abduction stories at face value, and consider that there could be large numbers of human beings who are being subjected to repeated capture, monitoring, and whatever else might be being done to them, it appears we are being used as a resource for something, a means to an end.

Generally this seems to be true, but certain contactee (as opposed to abductee) cases look different. People get admonished to avoid war or nuclear weapons, or take care of the environment. There are even a few reports of miraculous cures, which suggests alien agendas vary somewhat, so they're not a united front i.e. united to screw us.

 

[trainedobserver]

Generally this seems to be true, but certain contactee (as opposed to abductee) cases look different. People get admonished to avoid war or nuclear weapons, or take care of the environment. There are even a few reports of miraculous cures, which suggests alien agendas vary somewhat, so they're not a united front i.e. united to screw us.

I am not suggesting they are purposely screwing us anymore than we are purposely screwing various rat species we utilize in our pursuits of various goals centered on us rather than the rats. Theses species are viewed as a resource. There is no regard for them as individuals, peers, or as having rights of any kind. They are property bred from birth for whatever purpose we see fit. They may have thought lives (at least they observable mental processes) and social interaction with other rats, but we generally are not interested in any of that outside of how whatever we are doing to them (drug testing, behavioral modification, toxicity studies, etc.) effects those things so that information can be used to benefit our species.

How they are perceived seems entirely up to them and how they interact with our senses. I personally think that everything we think we know about these things is wrong. Some of it is intentional. Some of it is a happy accident of their otherness not conforming to our perceptional design specifications, so to speak. A lot, if not all of what we think we know is most likely the result of a guided fantasy of sorts. Guided by the phenomena but more directly and purposefully by the United States military and associated agencies.

I don't know anything for certain, so I try not to believe anything about these matters. This is all just my speculative thinking and imagination running wild.

 

[starise]

Ufology, I like your optimism here in doing the best we can with what we have.Time will tell, although it has been over 60 years since the first reinitiation of the subject of UFOs and before that the ufo subject can be followed into history. I am of the impression that primitive man was neither ignorant or unintelligent.It is only by the preservation of the accumulation of knowledge,by the fast access of it, that we are where we are in history Given all of this, the limits or boundaries have only been seen from a distance. We certainly won't learn if we don't try and so I think that continual trying is at least...well, an attempt.
Our past methods have mostly proven to be empty attempts at anything concrete,wouldn't you agree? One highlight might be that we are more organized and directed at our quest for an answer. None of us are morons here but just as an example if you have one moron or 50 morons what does that matter? Attempting the same things will get the same results and a crowd with no visionary will amount to a crowd same as a bunch of morons.

Goggsmackay, Some great points you have made. I have asked the same questions about the technology that seems to exist. Several years back scientists were saying that there was no way anything could cover those great distances in any reasonable amount of time. Now there are theories that substantiate the possibility that a ship or craft can live in its own little world aside from our time and space and move within that world doing things impossible in this world with its own principles and physical properties.Things like moving between places at unheard of speeds and times resulting from time warps/black holes and the whole lot of it.

When I was thinking on boundaries I wasn't necessarily thinking about a "transgression", although this thought conjures up many more thoughts about the results of pushing the envelope. I'm glad you brought it up. At one point I looked into people who were overt about secrets, and who that are no longer with us. There are only a handful of those people but maybe they are the ones we should be looking at with the most interest. Have you read the book " Behold A Pale Horse" By Milton William Cooper? His demise seems to be a little fishy to say the least. The book is still for sale though and that would seem contradictory if you believe that "they" had anything to do with it. The book itself isn't really anything new but in it he tells of a philospophy concerning our future and world events that I could see raising some dander if half of it is true. Another example that comes to mind is Phil Schnieder. You can still see some of his videos on youtube. He has some really far out things to say about aliens and underground tunnels. His death could have been professionally executed.His videos are still posted though and this raises questions as to why they are still there.He was a very intelligent guy who sure could seem legit.

Goggsmackay,Thanks! my opinion would be just that, my opinion. I don't have the holy grail on ufos. I have some ideas that are unorthodox in the "ufo community" at large. I plan to share some of those later.

Trainedobserver-"It is seems highly unlikely that all UFO phenomena can be attributed to a single source given the variety of the experience and the length of time it has been around. I think it could be a little bit of everything. That is to say they are a mixture of misidentifications, natural phenomena, psychological phenomena, and real manufactured objects."

I couldn't agree with you more on this one. I think the UFO phenomena is multi faceted. Anything up there we can't identify is a ufo and that covers a lot of territory especially with untrained observers and dare I say gullible and overly imaginative people. Add to this the mountain of disinformation and it can be difficult to steer through all of it. The great interest in ufos has fueled even more speculation. From the early sci fi of the 50s to the history channel the subject is continually out there.

I do think that their purpose here has a lot to do with us. Hanging around nuclear facilities and even going so far as to disconnect our launch systems remotely is one example. Was also experienced by the Russians. I think this is a good example of us pushing some of their boundaries.

Trajanus- I see you are one of the few who doesn't view the government as evil lol. I think one of their finer successes has been to keep almost everyone looking back to 1947. What about the present and what's going down now? Governments need secrets and they need to be kept. Treason is a serious offense here in the USA. I have no doubt that there are people who have signed away their lives and the safety of their families to protect a national secret.
There are supposed whistle blowers out there that thoretically should be dead but are walking around the ufo circuit signing books. What does this obviously say about them and their stories? Where should we really be looking?

It is only human to be curious and want to now the answers. I sincerely believe though that if we were all to be in possession of the answers we might have more questions than answers and might be more unsettled than if we had remained ignorant.In the end answers lead to more questions .We would know more but we wouldn't know it all and we would still be trying . The whole allure and novelty of the subject might evaporate away. In not knowing about it, it can be anything. Knowing can be boring.We would need to know more to keep it interesting.

 

[trainedobserver]

I do think that their purpose here has a lot to do with us. Hanging around nuclear facilities and even going so far as to disconnect our launch systems remotely is one example. Was also experienced by the Russians. I think this is a good example of us pushing some of their boundaries.

If they had any worry about the ramifications of nuclear war or nuclear contamination why did they allow 100s of nuclear weapons to be detonated over the years? Why aren't they buzzing over Fukushima, etc., etc. It doesn't make sense to me. The appearance of UFOs at nuclear weapons facilities could mean something else entirely or it could just mean they have to keep an eye on the talking monkeys least they get too raughty. "Look, first it was fire now it's this!" "I told you, letting the damn things talk to each other was asking for trouble!" "Go down and confuse their language or something. No better yet, take their iPhones."

 

[SRL+]

These questions, statements, and opinions should be based in philosophical terms. I would suggest that there are no more than a handful of members who truly know what is being referred to here. For instance, are you basing your opinion from a material/reductionist viewpoint? Are you basing your opinion from a dualistic position, or share the idealistic approach? This is important because you cannot have it all, (as of yet), for if you do, you most certainly run the risk of contradicting yourself.., and perhaps looking a little bit silly.
Comprehending the thoughts of the brightest scholars in varied disciplines is vitally important. Scholars of astrophysics and biology, particle physics, psychology, philosophy, theology, mythology, ancient history, would be suggested.
This very well could be the reason which most throw up their hands after having extrapolated to the best of their abilities, settling into a cultural context in which they feel comfortable with.

 

[trainedobserver]

...you most certainly run the risk of contradicting yourself.., and perhaps looking a little bit silly.

Wait a minute ... wait a minute. Ok, for a second there I thought I wasn't in a forum discussing the paranormal.

Comprehending the thoughts of the brightest scholars in varied disciplines is vitally important. Scholars of astrophysics and biology, particle physics, psychology, philosophy, theology, mythology, ancient history, would be suggested. This very well could be the reason which most throw up their hands after having extrapolated to the best of their abilities, settling into a cultural context in which they feel comfortable with.

I reserve the right to speak from my ignorance, which is vast and deep ... and smelly ...very, very, smelly.

 

[SRL+]

Did you think that I was reffering to you in particular..., my goodness.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Did you think that I was reffering to you in particular..., my goodness.

Hi - I realise the above statement was not directed at my but I must say your post #12 had me scratching my head a little. I'm not entirely sure what it was about or who/what it was directed at?
I fully accept I may be missing something glaringly obvious but hey, it happens to me from time to time.

 

[trainedobserver]

Did you think that I was reffering to you in particular..., my goodness.

No, but I saw it as an excuse to comment and I took it. There ... I did it again.

But seriously, I agree with you. That is if I understand you correctly. This is a subject that exhausts our attempts to describe it and strains the limits of accumulated knowledge. In the end, I think we all wind up accepting an interpretation that we can stomach.

 

[SRL+]

Hi - I realise the above statement was not directed at my but I must say your post #12 had me scratching my head a little. I'm not entirely sure what it was about or who/what it was directed at?
I fully accept I may be missing something glaringly obvious but hey, it happens to me from time to time.

Obviously the vast majority of forum members really have no idea where they truly stand, when posting an opinion concerning aerial anomalies, the paranormal, or religion for that matter. I will suggest this is the reason for so many heated discussions and debates which become non productive, and end up bruising toes. You see Mr. Mackay, the material / reductionist sees the visible universe as what it appears to be on it’s surface. And that is matter, in which everything can be reduced and explained within empirical science’s standard model. The idealist on the other hand thinks there is more involved which cannot be explained within the standard model, or materialism. Then once again you have dualism, which basically says that there is a little of both going on. However this tends to contradict materialism and idealism, thus becomes inflammatory.
I would suggest that this is something worthwhile investigating, as I have made this simplistic, and most likely inadequate for a reasonable reply.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

That makes sense to me. I suppose like many I am a materialist who can be swayed by various strengths of evidence of things non-material.

The only thing most of us on this forum dislike is the 'I am 100% correct' brigade. I am sometimes right, often wrong but always willing to change my mind when presented with new information. I will enjoy the debate in here with anyone as long as there is a bit of give and take.

 

[Randall]

These questions, statements, and opinions should be based in philosophical terms. I would suggest that there are no more than a handful of members who truly know what is being referred to here. For instance, are you basing your opinion from a material/reductionist viewpoint? Are you basing your opinion from a dualistic position, or share the idealistic approach? This is important because you cannot have it all, (as of yet), for if you do, you most certainly run the risk of contradicting yourself.., and perhaps looking a little bit silly. Comprehending the thoughts of the brightest scholars in varied disciplines is vitally important. Scholars of astrophysics and biology, particle physics, psychology, philosophy, theology, mythology, ancient history, would be suggested. This very well could be the reason which most throw up their hands after having extrapolated to the best of their abilities, settling into a cultural context in which they feel comfortable with.

S.R.I. Perhaps there is further understanding to be gained by examining the issues in the way that you propose, so let's apply it to the topic of this thread. For the sake of orientation we can assume that the "they" are those who know more about UFOs ( alien craft ) than we do and that they consist of two separate groups; the aliens and the powers that be ( PTB are generally construed as governmental agencies ). We have determined with reasonable certainty that the PTB have historically known things that the general public does not. Observations have also determined that UFOs ( alien craft ) behave evasively and do not engage in open extended contact or communication with our civilization. These two factors have led to the assumption that constitutes the topic of this thread "They Don't Want Us To Know". How do you suggest that we proceed from this point forward? Please pick a specific question to begin with, frame it in philosophical terms, and let's see if we get any further with it than we already are ( these factors taken together seem to imply boundaries ).