They don't want us to know

[starise]

Muadib- The main reason I didn't go into science is because , although I am as educated in that persuasion as the typical person , science isn't my main interest or strength. As an average person I can deduct that the "theories" put forth by some of the so called educated in that realm are only theories put forth as facts and this is the reason that I call some of it psuedo science.If a person of average intelligence can see this then surely those with higher IQs can see it. If true science is based on facts why do some scientists continue to prop up substantiations? On some level you have to have seen the same thing. You accuse the religious crowd of this but are blind to what some of the supposed experts are putting out there.

You approached this discussion from the perspective that you yourself had already adopted a world view on. I am not hypocritical in saying that I have done the same thing from my own perspective. You base a lot of what you think or believe on what I consider to be unsubstantiated even though it may look like a concrete fact to you and to others here. Reminds me of the history channel talking about ancient aliens. If this is this...then this could be that...and this is true. I see many of the so called scientific rationale you support your views on the same way you see my views on the Bible and God, as unsupported and foolish.

I'm no scientist but I do know that to base an entire man/ape skeleton on one jawbone or tooth is very shy of true science.To carbon date relics when carbon dating has been found to be inaccurate. Assumptions assumptions assumptions.Those reasons you gave for there being no flood other scientists found different conclusions on those matters. The other scientists are also ivy league graduated and not prone to making irrational judgments. The other side is always squelched because their view isn't politically correct. Thats the thing Muadib, for every argument you make there is a counter argument that is every bit just as rational as your own. To say that something could never happen, would never happen and never happened when we have science that says it did happen or at least an avenue to make it worth further investigation is to ignore the facts/ Modern mainstream science in this day and age has chosen to do just that. Little wonder then that we are producing many scientists from our colleges who only know part of the story.

Pixelsmith I can understand and highly sympathize with some of your less than stellar past concerning religion and God. I also think it can be a ploy to some poor searching soul who is honestly looking for the truth. One of the most convincing things yet has to be you and Trainedobserver saying that you have both"been there and done that" when it comes to religion and God. Although I'm not sure exactly what your past is or what experiences you guys have had. I can say that you are both in the minority.Pixelsmith has alluded to enough of it that I totally understand some of those feelings....still there are plenty of intelligent people who are Christians and the more they know the more they are drawn to it as the answer. I am absolutely certain that both of you guys are bitter and the whole lot of you over here influence one another. Christians go to churches and you guys have your little havens too. Birds of a feather flock together....heck what am I doing here?LOL.

Muadib- If you are really that bold in your beliefs why not mix it up a little bit, go straight for the most opposite view you can find in the realms of the sciences you are so sure of and find educated people as I'm presuming you seem to be and point for point argue the merits of your views in a scientific setting with those people. Stop singing to the choir here. I am no scientist but I know enough of what I was taught to doubt a lot of it. From a scientific vantage point I am probably not your guy, nor do I have the time needed to invest in such deep discussions. I really wish I did and I wish I had a PHd in science. Can I share a little secret with you? I work around people with high IQs all the time and the one certainty I have found is that they don't have it all together either, some of them can't tie their own shoes. I don't mean to berate these people I am simply making the point that not everyone with training in a discipline has that discipline down pat. Some of our most gifted geniuses were not formally educated. Academia is fallable people learning and teaching other fallable people.

Oh and I didn't have the time to spell check here might find a few misspells. LOL and I reserve the right to LOL all I want to, God knows we need it here. Did I tell you how dark this place feels to me?

 

[Randall]

The main reason I didn't go into science is because ...
I'm no scientist ...
Pixelsmith I can understand and highly sympathize ...
If you are really that bold in your beliefs why not mix it up a little bit ...

Just one thing you forgot to mention ... and that was to say something with direct relevance to the topic of this thread. You started it and it's since become a series of exchanges on religious belief. The only certain connections we've made with the topic of this thread and religious belief is that the mythical God we find in biblical lore such as the King James Version definitely didn't want us to gain knowledge, so much so that he forbade us to eat of the tree of knowledge ( or so goes the myth ). The Tower of Babel myth also tells us that God said "They are one people and have one language, and nothing will be withheld from them which they purpose to do." Clearly once again this entity wants to impose confusion and discord on humanity. Perhaps with your religious insights you might be able to tell us why these entities ( your God ) would want mankind to remain ignorant and obedient rather than self reliant and wise?

 

[Muadib]

There's so much outright nonsense in your post that I'm going to ignore most of it, it's simply the same garbage you've been spewing in every one of your other posts. I'll tell you the reason that I put my faith in science and not in religion, it's simple, science evolves. Science recognizes when it's wrong and it's self correcting, while religion stagnates and demands that you believe in things that have been proven false and are, at times, patently nonsensical. I posted something like 4 pages worth of problems with the Noah story, which you've yet to respond to, and you say that all of it can be refuted yet provide no evidence of refutation. I've looked into both sides and I can say with 100% confidence that there isn't an explanation out there from the religious side that deals with all of those problems, it doesn't exist, and most of them do exactly what you're complaining about which is try and support their ideas through so called theories like post flood diversification and other nonsense which is just a fancy way of saying 'God did it through miracles' I've never said that science isn't fallible but you've said your god isn't fallible so why in the world would you try to lecture me on fallibility? Do you even read what you type or is this some kind of new stream of consciousness troll style you've developed?

Let's not even mention that the only example you've provided is Ancient Aliens (ROFL) and if you think that's real science then no wonder you have such a problem with it. I would too if I was ignorant enough to think that was an example of real science in action. Scientists substantiate theories because that's how science works, when they're proven wrong they are discarded and new theories take their place. If religion worked the same way, I'd be all about it, well, other than all the killing and maiming and raping and pillaging that goes on in the name of god. You have this strange idea that because there's an opposing viewpoint that it's just as valid as the viewpoint it opposes and this couldn't be further from the truth. The viewpoint with the most evidence to support it wins, that's science, and that's why theories based on biblical stories hold no weight in the scientific community, because they lack evidence. Pure and simple.

Also, here's a little background on radiocarbon dating, which is extremely accurate except in cases of contamination. Which is why it's still used to this very day. I know you fundie types don't like it because it makes most of your silly, unsubstantiated theories untenable but saying it's not accurate is pure nonsense. The guy who discovered it didn't win the Nobel Prize for nothing.

The technique of radiocarbon dating was developed by Willard Libby and his colleagues at the University of Chicago in 1949. Emilio Segrè asserted in his autobiography that Enrico Fermi suggested the concept to Libby at a seminar in Chicago that year. Libby estimated that the steady state radioactivity concentration of exchangeable carbon-14 would be about 14 disintegrations per minute (dpm) per gram. In 1960, he was awarded the Nobel Prize in chemistry for this work. He demonstrated the accuracy of radiocarbon dating by accurately estimating the age of wood from a series of samples for which the age was known, including an ancient Egyptian royal barge of 1850 BCE.[2][3]

 

[Randall]

In response to starise: Do you even read what you type or is this some kind of new stream of consciousness troll style you've developed?

Please allow me to interject.

Maudib: Regarding the above quote. I think you may be onto something there.

Starise: You've been asked repeatedly to contribute something constructive and applicable to the topic of the thread ( which ironically you started ). Yet you seem more interested in evoking religious arguments than applying your religious knowledge to the task at hand. Does seeking out more examples of how the Judeo-Christian God hindered our progress toward knowledge bother you for some reason? Perhaps it conflicts with your faith, and you see it as a betrayal to actively seek out and expose your God's flaws. You love your God like a parent loves their child, unconditionally, no matter what atrocities they might commit. Or maybe you are just someone who in reality couldn't care less about religion and likes using Internet forums to evoke arguments? Which is it ... really?

Illustrative example directly related to the topic of this thread.​

​

​

 

[Trajanus]

I used to know I was correct about God too. I attended church on a nearly daily basis for the first 22 years of my life. I helped build a christian youth group, worked at my church as much as possible and spread the word of god every chance i could. Then I used my brain and thought for myself.

Reminds me of Ehrman before he wised up. I quit the church at age 17.

When we get rid of the "my gods dick is bigger than your gods dick" mentality I think the world will be a far more peaceful place.

Not sure about peaceful but it would be saner.

 

[starise]

ufology- Talk about beating a dead horse......1. I am not attempting to turn this into a religious discussion.If you read back in this thread you will see plainly that I was attacked for my theories regarding my views and this was taken by you to be a religious slant on the subject matter. I happen to think that regardless of the malignment of all things Biblical on this thread the Bible happens to be a very valid reference and I chose to use it as such. 2. I am not trolling nor am I trying to cause any kind of trouble 3. The inference that God or "my God" as you tend to refer to this was/is unfair and therefore unworthy of worship is certainly an opinion you have every right to have. I disagree with it especially since the stories you refer to are more about doing things against His plan, not necessarily that God is some cruel ogre who never wants us to get ahead. I don't think God is holding us back in any way shape or form unless it would somehow harm us.

Your comments on my lack of bringing some hard science to the table are valid, but I'm probably not the guy to do that and here's why in addition to me telling you I am no scientist. 1. I am positively certain aside from any blind faith that the Noadic flood did occur from a scientific perspective, but for me to bring this to the table I would want to do it in a very well studied and informative way. I have studied these things for myself and am wholly convinced of it but to go everywhere I would need to go and gather all of that information could take days or even weeks which I simply don't have the time to do. IOW the case is made in my own mind but bringing it to you would be difficult without the time necessary to bring the facts. ...Heres the thing..... This isn't the only thing I was hit with. Look at this thread and you will find an attack on almost anything God or Biblical. So I would need to literally invest months to retrieve information I don't have on file to answer all of the attacks leveled on the Bible. I just don't have that kind of time.

Not be offensive here but I have not felt particularly obligated to prove these things to people who are athiest in their belief system and no matter how much time I invest into this will likley not be persuaded otherwise. I simply stated that I think the "them" are fallen angels and all hell broke loose.

Muadib- Nonsense is apparently subjective. You can make that call and I'll make mine. I like any information that is helpful. The information on carbon dating is likely true, so why then don't they go back and correct all of the blunders they made with it since they know there was potential for error? How can a person check a system that is attempting to date an artifact supposedly millions of years old and be certain of this? The example you gave only goes thousands years. When you get into something supposedly millions of years old there is no accurate way to be certain that what you see is correct because there is no way to test it.
We see things in effect that we lack scientific explanation/validity for every day yet there they are. There are bright minds looking into what make the sun tick and some would say that they have it figured out but do they really? I am not putting down science I am trying to point out that it is only a tool and it changes according to what is found not the other way around. It would seem that being off by a few million years is really no big deal to some of these guys.

Have you directly studied these things Muadib? Are you a scientist? Are you in the fray here or are you on the web finding articles to support your cause?

 

[dyingsun]

If you don't mind, would you please point out 'these attacks' , starise ?

 

[Muadib]

Muadib-
We see things in effect that we lack scientific explanation/validity for every day yet there they are. There are bright minds looking into what make the sun tick and some would say that they have it figured out but do they really? I am not putting down science I am trying to point out that it is only a tool and it changes according to what is found not the other way around. It would seem that being off by a few million years is really no big deal to some of these guys.

Have you directly studied these things Muadib? Are you a scientist? Are you in the fray here or are you on the web finding articles to support your cause?

LOL

Yes we really have figured out what makes the sun "tick" are you even serious right now? You can't be, I refuse to believe that someone could be that ignorant. Of course we've figured out how the sun works, figuring out how our sun and all of the stars worked is what gave us nuclear power and the atomic bomb. It's not a mystery by any stretch of the imagination.

As to whether I'm a scientist or not, no, I'm not a scientist, but what does that matter? I'm simply someone who seeks out knowledge, real knowledge, and I value that above superstitious nonsense when it comes to explaining the world around us. You're right that science is just a tool, but it's the most valuable tool we have for understanding how the world around us works. Science has taught us 10x more in it's short time than religion ever did or even could. Like I said in another thread, the Paracast is all about separating the signal from the noise. When you bring religion into the discussion, all you are doing is adding more noise, especially since there is no 1 set of religious principles, there are literally thousands and every follower of those thousands of religions believes that their religious principles are 100% correct and all other interpretations are completely false. Why bother sifting through all that junk, when we can look at history and see that religious conclusions have been proven wrong so many times that it's laughable. The idea that the world is flat and the Earth is the center of the universe came from religion and we all know how that turned out. This is just one example, but there are many more notions that came from your own cherished bible that were proven to be complete and utter nonsense by science a long time ago.

In the end, you fail to understand my position, if religion works for you and makes you a better person, great, by all means practice your religion, but don't expect preferential treatment. Don't expect that you're going to get a free pass on providing evidence to back up your claims simply because they came out of the bible. Don't mistake others pointing out the lack of evidence for your claims as someone attacking you, that's not what we're doing at all. If someone came to this forum claiming to be in contact with aliens, I'd ask for the same proof that I would ask for when someone claims to know things because god told them or they read it in the bible. It's really that simple. Does science have all the answers? No, not yet anyway, but it's still the absolute 100% best tool we have at our disposal to understand the world around us and in my humble opinion, given time it will provide answers for all the genuine mysteries of life, in the same way that it provided answers for what makes the sun "tick" a long time ago. The fact that you don't know that or you choose to ignore the obvious, accepted explanation in favor of some mystical mumbo jumbo speaks volumes about your state of mind.

 

[Trajanus]

LOL
if religion works for you and makes you a better person,

Don't bet on it.

Does science have all the answers? No, not yet anyway, but it's still the absolute 100% best tool we have at our disposal to understand the world around us and in my humble opinion, given time it will provide answers for all the genuine mysteries of life,

Sure; others have said this such as C. W. Atkins, in Creation Revisited. Atkins used the term "infinitely lazy creator" in reference to "god" becoming totally superfluous.

The fact that you don't know that or you choose to ignore the obvious, accepted explanation in favor of some mystical mumbo jumbo speaks volumes about your state of mind.

Well said.

 

[Randall]

ufology- Talk about beating a dead horse.

So long as this thread remains open, requesting that people try to stay on topic is not "beating a dead horse". The topic is posted at the top of every page and remains as relevant for each post as the first.

I am not attempting to turn this into a religious discussion.

You're not solely to blame and I understand that it's hard for either side to not to want to defend a position that is so highly charged, and I'm not claiming I'm perfectly innocent either. However it is still a valid point that by engaging in off topic arguments we're only perpetuating the problem. Personally I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to contribute relevant content from your religious perspective and I've made an effort to point out a couple of examples. At the same time, those who aren't religious should also be able to contribute objectively without dragging the thread into and endless loop of religious vs secular diatribe.

If you read back in this thread you will see plainly that I was attacked for my theories regarding my views and this was taken by you to be a religious slant on the subject matter.

All you had to do is stick to the topic of the thread and remind others to do the same.

I happen to think that regardless of the malignment of all things Biblical on this thread the Bible happens to be a very valid reference and I chose to use it as such.

I haven't maligned your bible at all. I consider it to be quite interesting from a pseudohistorical and mythological perspective. I own several Bibles on CD and in print and one of the best reference companions is Unger's Bible Dictionary. I highly recommend that you get it and use it as a companion study guide. I had also hoped that your knowledge of religion could contribute positively to the topic of this thread, and still believe that you have potential to do so. The challenge is whether or not you can learn to contain the issues to an objective contribution to the topic. It would be nice if everyone else could do the same, but if they can't, don't be tempted by them to derail the discussion.

I am not trolling nor am I trying to cause any kind of trouble.

If you're not here to argue about your religion, then once again, stick to the topic.

The inference that God or "my God" as you tend to refer to this was/is unfair and therefore unworthy of worship is certainly an opinion you have every right to have. I disagree with it especially since the stories you refer to are more about doing things against His plan, not necessarily that God is some cruel ogre who never wants us to get ahead. I don't think God is holding us back in any way shape or form unless it would somehow harm us.

I've quoted instances directly from the Bible that are objectively and directly related to the topic of this thread ( They Don't Want Us To Know ). It's not a matter of interpretation as you have done. The mythology tells us God forbade us to eat from the tree of knowledge. Therefore his plan was to keep us from knowing. Whether or not you think God's plan was justified isn't the point. The point is that the story exists in black and white and is relevant to the topic of the thread. Are you able to see that? Are you capable of looking at the Bible objectively at all?