They don't want us to know

[stonehart]

Who are the Anunnaki? | What is the Planet Nibiru?

Worth a read

That was a good read.

 

[Ancientsaturn]

Your wanting to clear up the "communication problem" is more like moving the goalposts. My original quote was, "historically speaking the PTB have known things that the general public does not", and the documents I pointed you to were clearly marked SECRET. Now you want to to include something more recent with sufficient evidence to satisfy your interpretation of what I meant. Nevertheless, we can move on to your specific issues. Let's start by looking at them logically for a minute. They knew more then than the public did about significant UFO encounters, there is a consistent trail of such knowledge all the way up to when they said they stopped investigating them, then we found out that they didn't really stop investigating them, only that there is supposedly no "official program" and they denied any further information was available. Then requests for information via the FOIA revealed that they did have more information, but it has been heavily censored . So again, my point is proven beyond any reasonable doubt. Still to this day they know more than we do.

Anticipating that you'll want to move the goalposts further still, I'll remind you that I've never claimed to be able to tell you exactly what information is being kept secret, only that we know it exists. Nevertheless we can do a bit of extrapolation. You point out yourself that the PTB have incredibly sophisticated monitoring capabilities, which is true, but the exact specifications and the data they acquire are kept secret from the general public. Why? Because it detects stuff that is beyond the capability of civilian radar and other common detection technology and is part of our nation(s) military. For example according to ufologist Tim Good, NORAD had over 10 million 'uncorrelated returns' since the early 1960s, the precise tracking details of which have not been released. It is taken for granted that most of them are probably natural or manmade objects, but given the number of UFO reports spanning the same period, is it reasonable to believe that none of those 10 ,000,000 SPADATS tracking reports don't include data on any UFOs? Then we have the insider leak from Space Command reported in Howard Blum's Out There. So in addition to the history of secrecy already proven, we know that there are plenty of unidentified radar returns and plenty of UFO sightings. How hard is it to put 2 + 2 together here? In this case "painfully obvious" is synonymous with "reasonable certainty".

I don't know about goalposts. I am simply looking for significant facts around UFOs, not an argument. The historical data that the PTB had was for me, not significant. I understand you find it significant from the perspective that the PTB has knowledge you do not. For me, the fact that the PTB has knowledge is not an issue at all, but I can't elaborate on why.

Now I understand I stumbled into this topic on this forum. I come from such a different world that it was hard to find the right question to ask, so I started with the PTB one. So if I were to ask the right question, it would be, "What is the absolute best, most scientifically credible UFO event and related documentation?" I have a feeling you have just answered this question with the latest post, but let me be thorough, does this post contain the "state of the art" of current UFO knowledge, in your opinion? Second, what types of data would capture UFO phenomena? I previously listed: electromagnetic spectrum, imaging, thermal, radar (which is really just part of the electromagnetic spectrum). Third, are there any "insider" leaks that contain data in the category of the previous sentence? Now I don't mean civilian imaging, but DOD imaging? Even more interesting would be electromagnetic spectrum data. I have no idea how technical people are on this forum, but data related to PRF, PRI or doppler. For example, has anyone captured a pulse signal signature that is unknown by our electronics or demonstrates a rate of speed well beyond current aircraft capabilities?

Finally, I understand you are well informed on the UFO topic. I have not read Blum's book or any other book on UFOs, but reading a review of the book it appeared to me that what he uncovered was simply the fact that the PTB had a classified program looking for such phenomena, and that there was some sort of disinformation campaign on the program and/or related phenomena. I don't mean to be dismissive, but that is not really much help other than satisfying conspiracy theorists. It is entirely logical, even expected that the PTB would have some resources looking into any abnormal phenomena or events, from a national security standpoint. It doesn't mean they actually found anything significant. Of course the PTB would obscure any classified program, but that is no indication of important findings.

Regarding this statement, "You point out yourself that the PTB have incredibly sophisticated monitoring capabilities, which is true, but the exact specifications and the data they acquire are kept secret from the general public. Why?" - Because our enemies would love this information. Anyone who discloses such information goes straight to jail with no "get out of jail card", as they should.

 

[Ancientsaturn]

... Had you been born in Pakistan of local stock, do you think you would have stayed a muslim or carried out a search for the one true book, i.e the bible?

Wow, I stumbled into this forum and first thought it was about UFOs. Now it is about atheism! I hope you don't mind my jumping into the middle of this conversation. Perhaps I'm a glutton for punishment and I pick the most controversial and emotional topics to jump into? Anyway, here it goes:

Isn't there a major presupposition in this statement? The presupposition is that we are only born once?

 

[Randall]

I don't know about goalposts. I am simply looking for significant facts around UFOs, not an argument ...

OK I'm good with that. Time to reset the discussion and continue here.

 

[Ancientsaturn]

... Australia first saw the bible about 200 years ago, so in the 1800 years between Jesus and capt cook, countless native people who had never heard of jesus...... died and are now in hell.

I am repeating what I asked another poster, just to get a few comments on this question, as it applies to your post as well:

Isn't there a major presupposition in this statement? The presupposition is that we are only born once?

 

[stonehart]

Wow, I stumbled into this forum and first thought it was about UFOs. Now it is about atheism! I hope you don't mind my jumping into the middle of this conversation. Perhaps I'm a glutton for punishment and I pick the most controversial and emotional topics to jump into? Anyway, here it goes:

Isn't there a major presupposition in this statement? The presupposition is that we are only born once?

double edged sword that statement.. for on the other hand would you not be presupposing that we are born more than once?

Given the lack of real concrete evidence that we are born more than once then it is safe to conclude that we are only born once until such time that it can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that rebirth happens.

Burden of proof falls upon the person making the claim for supernatural events/beings not the other way around.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Wow, I stumbled into this forum and first thought it was about UFOs. Now it is about atheism! I hope you don't mind my jumping into the middle of this conversation. Perhaps I'm a glutton for punishment and I pick the most controversial and emotional topics to jump into? Anyway, here it goes:

Isn't there a major presupposition in this statement? The presupposition is that we are only born once?

Maybe, but I don't think avoiding one argument with an idea that cannot be proved is a way to answer the point.

 

[trainedobserver]

Wow, I stumbled into this forum and first thought it was about UFOs. Now it is about atheism! I hope you don't mind my jumping into the middle of this conversation. Perhaps I'm a glutton for punishment and I pick the most controversial and emotional topics to jump into? Anyway, here it goes:

Isn't there a major presupposition in this statement? The presupposition is that we are only born once?

It's about the paranormal, more or less. It is hard to discuss or consider the paranormal without people's world-views entering into the discussion. I think these things can be discussed at a more fundamental level without having to single out one particular supernatural belief system or another. Fundamental questions like, "Does the spirit world exist?", "If so, what is it?", "Can it be proven?" don't involve singling out various brands of belief systems. That usually only occurs when someone attempts to justify some belief or theory such as, "UFOs are demons from the spirit world." by citing religious texts or superimposing the world-view of their religious belief-system without much beyond faith as justification.

As far as the presupposition of a single life-time goes, I personally have no memories or any other indication that I have lived before. I can't even wrap my head around the mechanism for such a thing. So, based on what I have to work with, I can only think we have but one chance at life.

The human personality can be demonstrated to depend on the physical structure of the entire organism in reaction with its environment. To imagine its survival beyond the decay of the physical structure requires me to imagine some sort of backup copy of the individual human being's physical structure or something replicating its entire complex functions operating beyond the original's destruction. My immediate thought is, "Where is the evidence for such a thing, what would constitute its structure, and how is its integrity maintained?"

 

[Ezechiel]

I've always seen religions as a convenient manipulative solution to address what could only be perceived as paranormal phenomena for lack of technological tools that could be used in decoding the events or artefacts.

2000 years ago... just put everything in the god box until somebody can sort it out lol.
Today... put everything in storage until our science catches up.

That leviathan interpretation shows that we're catching up. If you consider the bible as a compilation of paranormal events instead of a sacred document... with modern eyes you start seeing stuff like Sodom and gomorrah as maybe a tunguska-type event hitting a region that was out of favor with the religious fanatics of the times. For religious fanatics, tragic events will always be the 'wrath' of a judgmental god and science will always be enemy no.1 . Burning the library of Alexandria is a prime example.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodom_and_Gomorrah

 

[mike]

That has always been a favorite discussion point of my own, but the apologist has their ways of wriggling around in it.

Yeah, its strange isnt it ?

Most of us know that when an animal is suffering, and there is no fix. The kind thing to do is to put it out of its misery.
To end its suffering, not prolong it.
As a pet owner its always hard to make the decision, and ive never gone down without a fight.
Ive spent 4 thousand dollars fixing one dog, had neutron activated gold beads injected into the tumour site of another, i spent 500 bucks recently having some bad teeth pulled from a pound rescued chihuahua because they were causing her to suffer.
But when nothing can be done, we humanely put them out of their misery, and the vet has many a time softened the blow with 5 simple words

You're doing the right thing.

And yet god who has a long history of animal cruelty, demands pain and suffering for all eternity for those who dont make the grade.

Jesus says that those who have been less fortunate in this life will have it even worse in the life to come. Mark 4:25
Jesus sends the devils into 2000 pigs, causing them to jump off a cliff and be drowned in the sea. Clearly Jesus could have simply sent the devils out, yet he chose instead to place them into pigs and kill them. This is called animal abuse. Mark 5:12-13
Jesus kills a fig tree for not bearing figs, even though it was out of season. Jesus must not be as smart as Christians would have us believe, for he was retarded enough to do something this silly. You’d think the son of god (god incarnate) would know that trees don’t bear fruit in dry season. Mark 11:13
Luke 12:47 Jesus okays beating slaves.

you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Deuteronomy 13:13-19

"You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, Jeremiah 51:20-26

Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.' (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)

We know that when an animal is suffering and cant be cured, the kind and loving thing to do is to end that suffering.

You wont ever convince me an entity that demands eternal, eternal torment and suffering is kind and loving.

 

[mike]

I am repeating what I asked another poster, just to get a few comments on this question, as it applies to your post as well:

Isn't there a major presupposition in this statement? The presupposition is that we are only born once?

Ive seen no evidence to the contrary.

Ive only been born once

 

[stonehart]

Yeah, its strange isnt it ?

Most of us know that when an animal is suffering, and there is no fix. The kind thing to do is to put it out of its misery.
To end its suffering, not prolong it.
As a pet owner its always hard to make the decision, and ive never gone down without a fight.
Ive spent 4 thousand dollars fixing one dog, had neutron activated gold beads injected into the tumour site of another, i spent 500 bucks recently having some bad teeth pulled from a pound rescued chihuahua because they were causing her to suffer.
But when nothing can be done, we humanely put them out of their misery, and the vet has many a time softened the blow with 5 simple words

You're doing the right thing.

And yet god who has a long history of animal cruelty, demands pain and suffering for all eternity for those who dont make the grade.









We know that when an animal is suffering and cant be cured, the kind and loving thing to do is to end that suffering.

You wont ever convince me an entity that demands eternal, eternal torment and suffering is kind and loving.

I wish I could like this post a few more times as it expresses my stand point very well.

Ive seen no evidence to the contrary.

Ive only been born once

lol nicely put!!!


As for dogs I wish I could have one here but the space is to small and most of it is setup for organic gardening and companion food planting through the rest.
Not enough space and I will not confine an animal that much and I want another German Shepherd. I had one and miss that dog, they are good dogs and very smart.

On the other hand I have a sixteen year old Cat that looks and acts like she is ten years younger and even the vet shakes his head in wounder at her condition.
I guess the secret is fresh meat every day (not crap off cuts but good meat you or I would eat), no junk biscuit only high-end food and no food from a tin . Keep her inside in winter and make sure she has all her shots etc, teeth cleaned when needed (this is not all the time as they have to put them under to do it) and lots of love.. then its up to genetics I guess. Going to be a hard day when I have to let her take the long dirt nap, but I will have the vet come here and let her go to sleep at home when the time comes as I do not want her last moments to be in fear... she really F'ing hates the vet.

Anyway I went way way way off topic then

 

[starise]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJvoFbA0qcs

Good morning guys...and maybe girls. I see we are still going on here about how cruel God is supposed to be. And the conversation at this point has splintered into several different directions. One of the chief tactics of any enemy is to demonize the other side. You are making a go of that with God and Christianity but I submit to you that in order paint the picture you are painting you must grossly ignore a lot and magnify a whole lot more.

Although I am no dedicated Biblical scholar I am reasonably able to offer some alternative suggestions to the views you express, although I don't see how that in any way shape or form
this has any direct bearing on seeing things called ufos and the consideration of the possibility that in some cases these sightings are of another dimension or spiritual in nature and that maybe in some cases the being seen and observed may be angels.

You come here with prearranged arguments on things like the Noadic flood. You feel you have good reason to do this because you already knew before hand that there are not detailed scientific explanations for some of the things you counter with. If I were to pull exact scientific explanations to some of the things God did during the flood, you would likely refute my explanations or go on to yet another supposed conradiction or supposed inconsistency. I can't see any of you saying," *slaps hand on head*" Gee thanks man, I never realized that."
In fact you go on about how closed minded and intellectually deficient Christians are while you sit on a bastion of literature that is contradictory to your own comments.

The inference that I am in Christianity because of culture is totally off base. If I had been Muslim, then yeah maybe this would hold true because if I don't do what one of those religious states commands then I would be shot or hanged. If I didn't concur with the communist state religion of China then I might come up missing. My culture is one of freedom and I choose what to follow and I chose Christianity. Explain to me the Christians who came to the faith and had no prior backgrounds in anything Christian?

You seem to like to post youtube vids here. Thats cool. There are a lot of videos on youtube posted by athiests who came to Christ. Should I post a few of those vids here?

Read a few of the highlights here from some of your favorite authors. You think Christians promote violence? A quick look at the views and hatred spewing from athiest writers shows who is really violent. You can actually look me in the eye and say you take the moral high ground? Answering the Atheists

I suspect that a lot of athiests who go on and on about how cruel God was in the old testament are pro abortion otherwise known as pro choice or pro baby murder.

You may think anything you want to. I'm not telling you what to think or believe. I am saying that before you start attacking Christians you may want to root out the hypocracy from your own group.

If you guys want to talk ufos I am in! If you instead decide to carry on this discussion ad nauseum thats your choice.

 

[starise]

I am increasingly of the opinion that organized Athiesm doesn't exist so much as a peaceful organization to further its beliefs as it does to eliminate other beliefs. Is that equal opportunity and tolerance?

 

[starise]

 

[starise]

Demons in Alien's Clothing

 

[pixelsmith]

Starise do you believe everything in the bible or just parts of it?

 

[trainedobserver]

Demons in Alien's Clothing

Nothing but hysterics and more unsupportable claims.

 

[Ezechiel]

I am increasingly of the opinion that organized Athiesm doesn't exist so much as a peaceful organization to further its beliefs as it does to eliminate other beliefs. Is that equal opportunity and tolerance?

If there was that 'ultimate' proof answering the 'ultimate' question of whether a sentient entity is responsible for the instantiation of this universe we wouldn't be here to bitch about the intolerance of one side or the other. IMHO, Atheist extremists and religious fundamentalists are one and the same... they both think they have the 'ultimate' question answered which explains their unfortunate and dangerous 'religious' absolutist attitudes.

The middle ground is where the real progress takes place. Question is: Do you want a society that can't place ideas like 'intelligent design' in their appropriate religious box anymore and where kids can't take science classes without the contents being filtered by religious authorities ?

Most people here think that religious fanatism needs to be kept in check whether its on the 'god' or 'no-god' side of the equation.

Not sure there's anything we can do in this lifetime with wackos like this (Check below LOL)

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/why_are_christians_hypocrites.html

Christians are often accused of being hypocrites. However, the Bible clearly indicates that those who practice hypocrisy really aren't Christians at all, but will be judged to be non-believers and sent to hell. If you are a non-believer, this is a good reason to consider the Christian faith, since you don't want to end up in hell with all the hypocrites. Having attended many Christian churches, I can assure you that the pretenders are few and far between. One should judge Christianity not on the basis of what the fakers do, but on the basis of what Jesus taught and how He lived.

 

[trainedobserver]

I am increasingly of the opinion that organized Athiesm doesn't exist so much as a peaceful organization to further its beliefs as it does to eliminate other beliefs. Is that equal opportunity and tolerance?

Organized atheism? Are you familiar with any real atheist organizations? I have belonged to a couple. They are educational organizations that promote critical thinking and the examination of supernatural claims. Most, like the Freedom from Religion Foundation, publish educational material and magazines that highlight the irrational belief systems and their consequences.

Starise, you need to be able to justify your beliefs with something other than demonstrations of faith in what is in the Bible. I don't think you can. Otherwise, you are just preaching, and I think several of us have already demonstrated a familiarity with the gospel message, the Bible, and Christian belief in general that surpasses your own.

Being tolerant of someone else's irrational beliefs doesn't mean that they have to be accepted as carrying the same weight as rational ones. Also, being tolerant doesn't mean that one can't or shouldn't point out the irrational nature of superstitious and supernatural belief systems. Irrational beliefs are invariably destructive to both the individual and the society.

Speculating about aliens, ghosts, vampires, and god beings is all well and good, but when you say you worship a supernatural being that created the universe you need to be able to say something more than, "This book tells me it is true so I believe it." The fact is you can provide no justification for your beliefs about this being other than faith. That just isn't going to be good enough for those no buying into your particular fantasy.

Also as someone has already pointed out, when you voice your beliefs in a public place like an Internet forum, they are open for comment, criticism, and debunking. Thinking your beliefs will be respected and unquestioned because they have a religious label on them is unrealistic and unfounded.