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U.S. Soliders Boo-Hoo About Dying in Afghanistan

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manxman said:
burnt.

protect?, from who?, last time any country attacked the USA 60/70 years ago, you nuked them for their trouble, they bombed pearl harbour 3/4k dead, you nuked em, 250,000 dead, and another million over the next decade.

soldiers dont join the american army to protect america, thats an insult to even a grunts intellegence, they join for a miriad of reasons, to kill, to belong, to earn, and many more reasons, protect america, thats a goodun that, protect america who from?.
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First off manxman, you have I understand my perspective is a Canadian one. My deeper views on why young people join the military is formed out of teaching kids for about twenty years, and I always make a point to spend time in dialogue with youth who choose either police or military service as their career choice. The other piece that has deeply informed my views is a lot of time spent interviewing WWI and WWII vets during Remembrance Day ceremonies at my school and my German/Polish family background that WWII tore through.

I'm not making any grand sweeping statements about all soldiers or the military complex as a whole, but an argument for individual choices and cirumstances as i understand them. I'm a staunch anti-violence proponent and see war as wasteful in general. However, when you stand outside a critical analysis of war there can be found these individual stories.

I've heard hard stories from 80 and 90 year old vets, who through tears talk about protecting people in towns they never even heard of before they got on board to go overseas. Were they convinced by propaganda beore signing on - perhaps. I've also heard teenagers tell me with conviction that they see their role in society is to protect others, and if that means dying for strangers so be it. These teens lack wisdom and experience and so I forgive what I might pre-judge as their naïveté. But, in the grand scheme of things I don't think about the net effect, or who profited, not that this isn't important. I tend to see individual stories, indvidual pain and suffering, and I've never met a happy vet, only sad ones, who must make their own stories, choices and losses add up to something. Who am I, who has never fired a gun in his life and don't intend to, to take their personal truth away from them? Just my point of view.
 
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Charlie Prime said:
BS, I gave a lot of thought to what you said, and I think you are right and I was wrong.

'Stupid' is too harsh a word. I invested many years, and a huge number of study hours to learn why wars really happen. Sometimes I forget that everyone can't know, and get angry that the lives of those kids are stolen because people don't.

Their lives are indeed wasted. That's a fact we can't ignore. But you are correct, most probably never had a chance to know their natural instinct to protect loved ones was being expolited.
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i think that's the sensitivity some people were looking for.

War is wasteful. My favourite quote from the oldest living WWI vet before he died was, "I won't wear a poppy because it glorifies war." That's a powerful individual statement about the human experience of war. I can't separate the human element from war.

But I do understand entirely the corporate/banker critique of war, and it is valid and proven historically.
 
you have a gift for words, its why you teach, be lucky

ps i know now without a shadow of doubt i mis-judged you 100%, thats just so you dont ever take me the wrong way again by accident, ya know, interpretation wise.
 
manxman said:
you have a gift for words, its why you teach, be lucky

ps i know now without a shadow of doubt i mis-judged you 100%, thats just so you dont ever take me the wrong way again by accident, ya know, interpretation wise.
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Thank you and no worries. Sometimes I write tongue in cheek, sometimes tongue in check, but when we stick around long enough around here we eventually get to know each other's voice fairly well. Even though we may just be disembodied voices on a screen, our individual humanity shines through along with all our edges. It's just an exercise in navigation.

But you do realize that this doesn't mean I'm not going to piss you off sometime in the future right? Different opinions come out of our different ways of seeing. Just part of the dialogue.
 
and i will be as blunt as ever, thats my nature, i am not gifted in expressing myself well, i am blunt, it comes from employing many male manual labourers, i wouldnt think twice about telling a lad what i wanted him to do, and if he was still stood there 10 seconds later it would be 'what are you waiting for a kiss good-bye', patience isnt a virtue i was born with, in print it can come over as aggressive, especially in a lazy poster like me, not using smilies etc.
 
On reasons behind war: There is much evidence that war is a feature of stratified societies with powerful minority classes (the ones deciding war). No one would willingly agree to engage in combat under normal circumstances; so this violence indicates a compulsory system, i.e. one already based on force.

In our modern case, it's also indicative of a culture that glorifies it to the public. It's also normally quite difficult to convince a soldier to kill without second thought; that's why the US military (and others) have looked into methods of conditioning soldiers in their training, so these tendencies can be inbred. I disagree with some of the author's conclusions in the linked article (children associating violence with pleasure--this is sloppy reasoning at best). There are those with sociopathic tendencies who'd voluntarily enlist for less savory purposes, but those are <5-10% of the population.

As to why war is a feature of stratified societies. In all power structures, particular interests dominate. Just whose interests those are, varies from system to system. The interests of the minority class dominate our society. Because it also holds the most power and is shielded from the negative effects of war/institutional violence, it's best equipped to rationalize decisions concerned with it. Ever heard of how Apple contracts Foxconn (who has a very bad labor reputation) to build iPhones?

By removing responsibility merely one step, it's that easier to justify the decision. You can wash your hands of all atrocities that way, because other people are engaged in them, not you necessarily. That's reflected in hierarchy. The ones with the most power are by definition the least responsible. Look at how many legal safeguards there are to cover corporate ass.

Being removed from a situation warps your perspective on it too. The bureaucrat sees war through the eyes of a bureaucrat. I admit this is simplified, but I think it explains government behavior quite well. Institutional malice combined with stupidity.
 
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RU_Insane said:
On reasons behind war: There is much evidence that war is a feature of stratified societies with powerful minority classes (the ones deciding war). No one would willingly agree to engage in combat under normal circumstances; so this violence indicates a compulsory system, i.e. one already based on force.

In our modern case, it's also indicative of a culture that glorifies it to the public. It's also normally quite difficult to convince a soldier to kill without second thought; that's why the US military (and others) have looked into methods of conditioning soldiers in their training, so these tendencies can be inbred. I disagree with some of the author's conclusions in the linked article (children associating violence with pleasure--this is sloppy reasoning at best). There are those with sociopathic tendencies who'd voluntarily enlist for less savory purposes, but those are <5-10% of the population.

As to why war is a feature of stratified societies. In all power structures, particular interests dominate. Just whose interests those are, varies from system to system. The interests of the minority class dominate our society. Because it also holds the most power and is shielded from the negative effects of war/institutional violence, it's best equipped to rationalize decisions concerned with it. Ever heard of how Apple contracts Foxconn (who has a very bad labor reputation) to build iPhones?

By removing responsibility merely one step, it's that easier to justify the decision. You can wash your hands of all atrocities that way, because other people are engaged in them, not you necessarily. That's reflected in hierarchy. The ones with the most power are by definition the least responsible. Look at how many legal safeguards there are to cover corporate ass.

Being removed from a situation warps your perspective on it too. The bureaucrat sees war through the eyes of a bureaucrat. I admit this is simplified, but I think it explains government behavior quite well. Institutional malice combined with stupidity.
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I was in the USAF in the 1980s and remember the regular "soviet threat" briefings which were no doubt part of the conditioning tactics you speak about. My own thoughts about how wars happen pretty much mirror what you said.

My opinion as to why war happens has evolved (devolved, maybe) over the years. I can no longer find much separation between the way humans and their societies behave, and the way troupes of chimpanzees behave. With our big brains and psychoanalysis, we justify and rationalize our actions, but really we're just a bunch of chimps fighting over the same fruit tree and the breeding rights that come from being dominant.

Too cynical?
 
pduchesne said:
I was in the USAF in the 1980s and remember the regular "soviet threat" briefings which were no doubt part of the conditioning tactics you speak about. My own thoughts about how wars happen pretty much mirror what you said.

My opinion as to why war happens has evolved (devolved, maybe) over the years. I can no longer find much separation between the way humans and their societies behave, and the way troupes of chimpanzees behave. With our big brains and psychoanalysis, we justify and rationalize our actions, but really we're just a bunch of chimps fighting over the same fruit tree and the breeding rights that come from being dominant.

Too cynical?
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Humans and chimps share much of the same basic behaviors, don't they? I think some good insight into human society can be found by looking at chimps and other apes.
 
All able bodied immigrants seeking residence within the USA should have serve a minimum of 4 years in the military before becoming a citizen of the USA.
 
Burnt State said:
Why pick on the immigrants? When you look at who made N. America they are all immigrants and they all went off to both of the big wars.
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Because we have WAY TOO MANY NOW. It's called management. We need to bring back the value of being a US citizen. Right now, that value barely equates to a third world existence.
 
know how you feel jeff, we are now out numbered 6 to 4 by incomers, last 50 yrs has seen 40k population increase to 100k, but 50k have come in the last 25yrs, you cannot work here unless you have a 'work permit', if they do come here and work without one they are jailed, on completion of their sentence, they are taken directly to the airport and put on a plane back to where they came from, with a 10 year exclusion order, there are only 800 new dwellings a year allowed to be built, or refurbished, hotels converted into apartments etc, each apartment is one dwelling, and ceiling of 2000 incomers max per annum, unless they are key workers
[for jobs that theres no-one qualified here to do, mainly top civil service type jobs, or senior financial industry positions].

they are mainly brits with a few irish, and frankly they are a pain in the ass.
 
manxman said:
know how you feel jeff, we are now out numbered 6 to 4 by incomers, last 50 yrs has seen 40k population increase to 100k, but 50k have come in the last 25yrs, you cannot work here unless you have a 'work permit', if they do come here and work without one they are jailed, on completion of their sentence, they are taken directly to the airport and put on a plane back to where they came from, with a 10 year exclusion order, there are only 800 new dwellings a year allowed to be built, or refurbished, hotels converted into apartments etc, each apartment is one dwelling, and ceiling of 2000 incomers max per annum, unless they are key workers
[for jobs that theres no-one qualified here to do, mainly top civil service type jobs, or senior financial industry positions].

they are mainly brits with a few irish, and frankly they are a pain in the ass.
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It wouldn't be a bad thing at all if any of the "new comers" did one single thing to improve the situation here. All they do is drag all of us down with their sub economic and educational status. They can't speak our language, they whine and complain when we don't honor their indigenous countries religious and cultural customs, and then they expect us to pay their way unless they work under the table for pennies and increase our debts in the process. NONE of this would be the case if our lame ass politicians cared about anything other than themselves. It's just one big apathetic mess with a very easy fix in plain sight. However, that doesn't seem to put enough money in our crook's pockets so it's off the table as usual.
 
mike said:
I tend to agree with this, unless you are conscripted against your will, you know the job you signed up for is a dangerous one.
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I disagree what is missing from the debate that I can read is the role that poverty, false promises, the glorification of war, propaganda, the lack of jobs and the vulnerability of youth play in someone signing up to fight for the empire.
 
Jeff Davis said:
It wouldn't be a bad thing at all if any of the "new comers" did one single thing to improve the situation here. All they do is drag all of us down with their sub economic and educational status. They can't speak our language, they whine and complain when we don't honor their indigenous countries religious and cultural customs, and then they expect us to pay their way unless they work under the table for pennies and increase our debts in the process. NONE of this would be the case if our lame ass politicians cared about anything other than themselves. It's just one big apathetic mess with a very easy fix in plain sight. However, that doesn't seem to put enough money in our crook's pockets so it's off the table as usual.
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I can tell that this is one of those let's agree to disagree events as I see things entirely differently. What about kicking out all the immigrants and descendants of immigrants so that aboriginal culture can experience a revival and get back to grooving with the land?

You are speaking absolute mythology regarding the role of the immigrant in North America. Both the US and Canada have very restrictive immigration policies like many western countries, and only the skilled and the wealthy and the English proficient speakers can get in. It's all a numbers game now and a rating system. Gone are the days when you could bring over your parents after getting established here - if they can't speak lingo, tough luck.

Keep in mind that any migratory workers, or landed status folk are either working jobs in crappy conditions (picking fruit) that mainstream folk won't do, or are completing skilled trades labour that we don't have & are often taken advantage of in terms of health and safety work conditions and payscale. Immigrants are the only people replacing our population as the birth rate is descending amongst the mainstream populace and without them to pay taxes we're all going to be screwed in terms of social services, national pension plans, old age security etc..

Fear of the immigrant is a false fear altogether. Somehing like 65% of immigrants are the business class bringing money and much needed jobs to our nations. My wife works at immigrant services and I work with immigrant youth. These are the facts. Refugee status is almost impossible to achieve. I won't bother addressing the cultural concerns as from my perspective it is diversity that enhances, strengthens and has continued to develop our two nations to be the innovative powerhouses that they are today.
 
Well I've seen you've done your job well Mr. Charlie Prime! You seek to change the world!!! Really, all you manage to do is set the ground work for another thread of arguement that's evolved from soldiers crying in the battlefield to immigration crippling countries, and, wow...... your nowhere to be found. Dang, all that education you've got.... manipulate people to a verbal frenzy of stances. Real change.
 
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more; it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
 
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