When Will The Economy Collapse?

[stonehart]

What-the-hey? I can't delete the above 'quotes'. Whazzat?

Anyway, would so like to discuss this, but off on vacation - Himself gunning the motor as I speak.

But just to say, such videos can be guilty of the self-same sins as they accuse others. Obama has cost the taxpayers 'hundreds of millions of dollars' for his vacations? Really? I don't think so. Obama is one of our less wealthy presidents of recent times and he actually does take a family vacation to Hawaii once a year - on his own dime. The rest of the time he is usually living in D.C. - at the White House. Is that the vacation? Because in some previous administrations the particular president was so permanently 'on vacation' that the press had a phrase for it - 'the Texas White House', is one example of that phrase. In fact when that president went on vacation to Maine in the summer, the press never called his location there 'the Maine White House' - for a reason, he was on a valid vacation. If such a video cannot get even that little factoid straight, if such a video is not adverse to hate-spin just because it can, much of it's premise and 'facts' with other things comes under suspicion.

P.S. I wanted to delete the following sentence because I realized I was wrong on this point - the press did refer to 'the Maine White House': "In fact when that president went on vacation to Maine in the summer, the press never called his location there 'the Maine White House' - for a reason, he was on a valid vacation." However, the system is not allowing me to do any deletions!

Good and critical I like that.
Just note that when I post videos etc they often time are not my opinion but just interesting areas for discussion and debate.

Having said that take a look at this video on the internet and capitalism as it is a very intelligent analysis of it.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Increase in a bank tax for insurance on saving accounts as some suggest a some lenders might be in big trouble down under>>>
Has China cooked the cookies rather making other nations look bad instead the audit finding the funds have been moved away/stolen the gold from the safe? and wealth being moved around to bankrupt each nation?

 

[dyingsun]

China is in for a full economic failure, 'too much, too soon'. Interesting times.

 

[stonehart]

China is in for a full economic failure, 'too much, too soon'. Interesting times.

Matter of when not if China takes a big nose dive

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Well it seems the cooking the digital cash is getting much hotter and will any of the itchy fingers get handcuffed??
US regulators 'find evidence' of banks fixing derivative rates - Telegraph

 

[stonehart]

 

[stonehart]

 

[Tyger]

Soooo busy right now prepping for school but I came across this very cool lecture by Richard Wolff - beware! he may be a Marxist! Ha! (I don't know what your biases are). This is the guy who wrote: "Capitalism Hits the Fan: The Global Economic Meltdown and What to Do About It".

Capitalism Hits the Fan - Richard Wolff
LINK:

I have become radicalized in recent years and I strongly feel that we need to approach - on a global scale - something akin to the Basic Income Grant, which is being tried in places in Africa and Germany, not to mention the serious models happening successfully elsewhere.

The Mondragon Model: How a Basque Cooperative Defied Spain's Economic Crisis
LINK: The Mondragon model: how a Basque cooperative defied Spain's economic crisis

Economy of the Basque Region
LINK: Economy of the Basque Region | One Hour Translation

I am someone who loves the world and I am very much excited by all the possibilities in this rapidly changing economic paradigm. If there were a crisis I'd be walking into it rather than away. There is something here new that we can make happen - but it's not going to happen with barricades. That's the old way. Sadly, economic theory in the US has been driven into the realm of a religion with all the cant and catch-phrases of dogma. The economic powers in control now are fine with that and play it and fan it and urge it forward. Sorry business - while Rome burns.

 

[Tyger]

A Cure for Capitalism - Palo Alto (Richard Wolff 2012)
LINK:

 

[Tyger]

Good and critical I like that.
Just note that when I post videos etc they often time are not my opinion but just interesting areas for discussion and debate.

Having said that take a look at this video on the internet and capitalism as it is a very intelligent analysis of it.

Loved this - especially the analysis of the journalism issue. Dead-on.

I do think there will be a natural check to all this. We are currently - as a society - mesmerized by a new toy - the internet. I can guarantee you that the economic forces are doing everything they can to keep the computer/internet addiction going by reaching it's tentacles right into the educational system (that's been happening since the 1980's). But there just has to be a turning away of attention for the whole house-of-cards to collapse. I already see this with Twitter.

The internet is an extremely vulnerable medium. People just have to start walking out their doors making other choices in how they spend their time, and gather their information, for the whole thing to shimmer like an illusion and disperse. In fact, far more people are not on the internet than are on it. It's a bubble with it's own reality curve. It's basically a sales-pitch.

It's going to change - it's going to be something different because of the whole system going through an upheaval - and it's something we caused by sheer ignorance - and what will rise will be more intelligently informed. But while we endure the shift it's a huge convulsion to live through. The shockwave that is going to ripple across the world as the US 're-tools' itself will be the 'tsunami', the 'climate change', the 'pole shift' - the 'zombie invasion' - the 'aliens are coming'. These are metaphors imo.

I wish I could live to be a 150 years old - in excellent health, of course - so I could see it all and work to make it all better - because I know it can be better and that we can do it. It's my current passion these days - we must give everyone a living income (not wage, income!) - we must make people free to create and contribute as they decide! Economic slavery must end world-wide!

 

[Tyger]

Brilliant! Yes! Absolutely! We should be ashamed of ourselves. I would like to know what someone 'has' on Obama that events are moving as they are. He has been such a disppointment. It is inexplicable and deeply, deeply disturbing. WHY do people feel disempowered? When in fact the people have the power to make it different - to change the tide. We are not yet in a true police state - though we may see the flickering shadows on the wall - we still have the vote and our vote is powerful. We can say no - we can make other choices.

What is happening is the Internet splinters the information. It is a perfect tool for disempowerment. One newspaper - then two - then three - publishing the stories, publishing the interviews - makes a difference. The power remains in the printed word - it always will - regardless of the sales-pitch regarding digital. We've got problems, folks - the microwaves are causing problems - the bees, DNA disruptions, resonance issues - this is what we do as a society/culture - we rush head-long into actions without fully thinking through the consequences - and then it all gets justified.

It is an endlessly fascinating situation we find ourselves in - both overwhelming and intriguing to know that we hold in our hands the power to make the future not simply different but better - if we choose to. I am convinced.

 

[Tyger]

Nothing can happen without voter approval - and over 50% of the voting public not voting in national elections has enabled it all to happen. Washington DC is not accountable because they don't have to be - it's a joke. The citizens of the United States have made democracy a joke. Shame on us!

It's also happened because by some twist of the mind people began to think they were of the 'managerial class' - I saw it start to happen in the late 80's. People began to argue against their own best interests. Ach!

It can all stop in an instant if everyone says it stops - the answers are local, local, local!

 

[Tyger]

I think I'm about done in for tonight! I've reached my posting quota.

 

[stonehart]

Wow Tyger will take a little bit to digest all of that before I comment but ... NICE POSTS!!

 

[stonehart]

Nothing can happen without voter approval - and over 50% of the voting public not voting in national elections has enabled it all to happen. Washington DC is not accountable because they don't have to be - it's a joke. The citizens of the United States have made democracy a joke. Shame on us!

It's also happened because by some twist of the mind people began to think they were of the 'managerial class' - I saw it start to happen in the late 80's. People began to argue against their own best interests. Ach!

It can all stop in an instant if everyone says it stops - the answers are local, local, local!

I am not a big on the Young Turks but watch this.

so in short... she says.. give me my money to make things happen for you.

This is when you know your system is screwed.

 

[Tyger]

I am not a big on the Young Turks but watch this.

so in short... she says.. give me my money to make things happen for you.

This is when you know your system is screwed.

Great response from a poster: "She isn't actually a congresswoman. She is the delegate to Congress who represents the District of Columbia. She is called a congressperson, but she actually can't vote on legislation. Although her position is not only ceremonial, she isn't going to get money from lobbies as much as the "real" members get, since she doesn't have a vote."

In short, she gets no money, because she does not vote - though it's interesting how she indicates to them that she is powerful via her appointment ability. It is unutterably sad in so many ways - including because the lobby that received this call has to be the one that made this voicemail public. What could have been their purpose in doing that, one wonders. Seriously. To get her removed? Will this incident be sufficient to get her removed? If so, don't mess with the lobbyists!

 

[Randall]

A Cure for Capitalism - Palo Alto (Richard Wolff 2012)

One problem I noticed near the start ( probably more later ) is his logic regarding the unemployed and the capacity for utilization. He implies that if we just pair all the unemployed with the means to generate production, that both problems will be solved. This sounds logical at first but ignores a third essential factor, that of supply and demand. Sure it's fine if we put all these unemployed people together with the resources they need to generate goods, but who's going to buy them? The reason that most of the production equipment is sitting around underutilized is more than likely because it's not economically feasible to run it all. For example, gold prices skyrocket and mining companies buy machinery and hire labor. That's great, but when the price of gold drops, they have to lay people off, and consequently we have unemployed people and unsused equipment sitting around. That's only one example, but it applies to every aspect of goods and services production, and it gets the point across that it's not nearly as simple as he is suggesting. Maybe he addresses this issue later in his sermon, but it's not a promising start for someone claiming his level of expertise.

 

[Tyger]

One problem I noticed near the start ( probably more later ) is his logic regarding the unemployed and the capacity for utilization. He implies that if we just pair all the unemployed with the means to generate production, that both problems will be solved. This sounds logical at first but ignores a third essential factor, that of supply and demand. Sure it's fine if we put all these unemployed people together with the resources they need to generate goods, but who's going to buy them? The reason that most of the production equipment is sitting around underutilized is more than likely because it's not economically feasible to run it all. For example, gold prices skyrocket and mining companies buy machinery and hire labor. That's great, but when the price of gold drops, they have to lay people off, and consequently we have unemployed people and unsused equipment sitting around. That's only one example, but it applies to every aspect of goods and services production, and it gets the point across that it's not nearly as simple as he is suggesting.

I think it's just an example of 'if thus and so, then....' - all elements being advantageous. It's akin to having masses of empty houses literally crumbling on their foundations yet not one of the former owners were cut any slack to forestall foreclosure. Along those lines.

Maybe he addresses this issue later in his sermon, but it's not a promising start for someone claiming his level of expertise.

Ouch! Listen to the whole of it, then let me know what you think.


The bottom line will be whether you see your labor as belonging to you to 'sell' at whatever price you decide. The way the system works is that people must remain in great need - in poverty (hungry, barely able to sustain a home) - in order for them to be willing to 'sell' their energy/labor for a pittance. It's one of the reasons the draining out of the wealth of the Middle Class in the US is so appealing. Companies would rather manufacture here in the US, but until the working citizens are willing to accept much lower wages - already being effected - the manufacturing will continue overseas.


It's why a Basic Income Grant is a concept opposed. It's why Socialism/Communalism (to avoid that other nasty word) - is so vehemently opposed right now. To create a populace free to choose economically cuts into profits. To create 'democracy in the work place' scares people because all they know is servitude via their dependency on wages determined by another.


However, communal working situations are being developed here in the US. The movement towards a new economic model is already in the works - and those who are arming themselves for armaggedon are missing the boat. There will always be brigands and bandits that will have to be dealt with, but the real wealth - short of forcible enslavement - is people's labor working in cooperation.


In the early Middle Ages the roaming bands of knights were essentially gangs of predators. Armed with superior technology they could breeze into any village and rob the peasants of their stored food, and impact the peasants' ability to work their field, this disrupting crops - making everyone - even the knights - suffer when there was no harvest, or seeds were stolen and there could be no planting. Enter the Church - which effectively negotiated truces, though at the time they were edicts to be obeyed under penalty of excommunication. Knights were forbidden to 'war' on certain days, thus enabling peasants to have first at least 1 day free, then increased to 2, then 3 days free from the threat of harm while working in their fields. (People - in their current anti-religious modes - fail to recall - among all the negatives from our perspective - the humanizing force the Church was in those long ago times). Anyway, the point being that labor is the precious commodity that must be protected, and it is the laborer that must always be free. Our current situation is so far removed from this basic fact that people are swayed by a confusion of theories postulating the necessity for economic enslavement via wages.


Were you to have asked an educated Greek at the height of the Golden Age of Greece if slavery could have been abolished, he would have been unable to imagine an economy existing without slave labor. In a very real way we are in the self-same situation - we cannot conceive of an economy without a profit-motive, or without a poor underclass supplying cheap labor - still slavery but of another kind.

 

[Randall]

Ouch! Listen to the whole of it, then let me know what you think.

Fair enough, if it doesn't put me to sleep first.

Companies would rather manufacture here in the US, but until the working citizens are willing to accept much lower wages - already being effected - the manufacturing will continue overseas.

I'm no fan of the fascist corporatocracy and I could listen to a good anti-plutocratic rant anytime.

It's why a Basic Income Grant is a concept opposed. It's why Socialism/Communalism (to avoid that other nasty word) - is so vehemently opposed right now. To create a populace free to choose economically cuts into profits. To create 'democracy in the work place' scares people because all they know is servitude via their dependency on wages determined by another.

However, communal working situations are being developed here in the US. The movement towards a new economic model is already in the works - and those who are arming themselves for armaggedon are missing the boat. There will always be brigands and bandits that will have to be dealt with, but the real wealth - short of forcible enslavement - is people's labor working in cooperation.

How does that happen without organization though. The union busters are running rampant. If you manage to get a job and dare breath the word union, you're fired "without cause" to avoid legal penalties. Meanwhile those who are scraping for their crumbs are too afraid to stand up for their rights because they'll loose what little they have. I'm no fan of unions either for that matter. IMO they're a symptom of a dysfunctional business structure most likely caused by corrupt management, if their not also corrupt themselves. So what are we supposed to do?

In the early Middle Ages the roaming bands of knights were essentially gangs of predators. Armed with superior technology they could breeze into any village and rob the peasants of their stored food, and impact the peasants' ability to work their field, this disrupting crops - making everyone - even the knights - suffer when there was no harvest, or seeds were stolen and there could be no planting. Enter the Church - which effectively negotiated truces, though at the time they were edicts to be obeyed under penalty of excommunication. Knights were forbidden to 'war' on certain days, thus enabling peasants to have first at least 1 day free, then increased to 2, then 3 days free from the threat of harm while working in their fields. (People - in their current anti-religious modes - fail to recall - among all the negatives from our perspective - the humanizing force the Church was in those long ago times). Anyway, the point being that labor is the precious commodity that must be protected, and it is the laborer that must always be free.

Laborers are essentially slaves to their corporate masters. We're back to the same problem as above. I've tried talking to co-workers, but they're more interested in preserving the pitiful existence they have and getting what little instant gratification they can via video games or whatever else they can get between shifts, before they have to go back as willing slaves to the system that's abusing them.

Our current situation is so far removed from this basic fact that people are swayed by a confusion of theories postulating the necessity for economic enslavement via wages.

Were you to have asked an educated Greek at the height of the Golden Age of Greece if slavery could have been abolished, he would have been unable to imagine an economy existing without slave labor. In a very real way we are in the self-same situation - we cannot conceive of an economy without a profit-motive, or without a poor underclass supplying cheap labor - still slavery but of another kind.

Absolutely, so what's the solution. The haves aren't going to give it up and since they have all the power, how do we make any real changes? Trust me, I've tried to stand up for my basic rights, and I've been fired half a dozen times as a result. I've gone to the government to complain about the treatment, but they just blame the victim. It's easy to rant, but how often are people are willing to walk out the door with you when it comes right down to it? More often they're just as happy to see you go so they can move up the ladder. So it's not just the system that's messed up. It's human nature. Where's the mythical employer who respects and values hard working loyal employees and rewards them for extra effort rather than targeting them as threats? I don't know.

 

[Tyger]

Fair enough, if it doesn't put me to sleep first.

Funny - ha! - I find him compelling. He's not entertaining the audience - he's a man on a mission. Many who hear his views dismiss him as being naive or declare his ideas too simplistic. They wish. He knows what he's talking about imo.

How does that happen without organization though. The union busters are running rampant. If you manage to get a job and dare breath the word union, you're fired "without cause" to avoid legal penalties. Meanwhile those who are scraping for their crumbs are too afraid to stand up for their rights because they'll loose what little they have. I'm no fan of unions either for that matter. IMO they're a symptom of a dysfunctional business structure most likely caused by corrupt management, if their not also corrupt themselves. So what are we supposed to do?

Exactly so - I understand completely. I have lived a fairly free life, too, refusing to keep my head down - and there are consequences to that. No question - even in labor-based decision-making endeavors. I ascribe much of the problem to human nature. I have seen the problems in Unions, as well. Hate to say it - or, not really, because it's the essence - a new way of organizing the economy requires a new way of thinking, a new consciousness.

Laborers are essentially slaves to their corporate masters. We're back to the same problem as above. I've tried talking to co-workers, but they're more interested in preserving the pitiful existence they have and getting what little instant gratification they can via video games or whatever else they can get between shifts, before they have to go back as willing slaves to the system that's abusing them.

See below - the Marcora Law (Italy).

Absolutely, so what's the solution. The haves aren't going to give it up and since they have all the power, how do we make any real changes? Trust me, I've tried to stand up for my basic rights, and I've been fired half a dozen times as a result. I've gone to the government to complain about the treatment, but they just blame the victim. It's easy to rant, but how often are people are willing to walk out the door with you when it comes right down to it? More often they're just as happy to see you go so they can move up the ladder. So it's not just the system that's messed up. It's human nature. Where's the mythical employer who respects and values hard working loyal employees and rewards them for extra effort rather than targeting them as threats? I don't know.

They are powerful only because we allow them to be so. Mainly, because 'we' are as corrupt as 'they'. Enron could not have happened without endless moments of complicity. Same for 2007-2008.

We do have a vote. In the US we are not using it.

We just have to say 'no'. Walk away - do something else. In enough numbers - backed up by votes - things will start to change. Wolff talks about the Italian Marcora Law: Marcora Law - Wikipreneurship In a country riddled with such problems they are getting the incentives for worker cooperatives right.

If the US had a Marcora Law, plenty would walk out the door with you to create a cooperative on your own terms. There are ways to re-tool this economy - and it is already happening - no matter what cooperations want.