Where do you fit in as a believer or skeptic?

[Psychedelic_Alchemist]

I'm a skeptical believer. However, I couldn't find that on your poll!

 

[Randall]

I'm a skeptical believer. However, I couldn't find that on your poll!

Welcome to the forum! Can you elaborate? You believe what exactly? It passed your skeptical screening how?

 

[Polterwurst]

I guess I have the same problem. At first I wanted to choose sceptic, because I don't tend to believe anything without at least some personal experience in favor of it. But I guess lots of people would put me in the believer camp. So for the longest time I was undecided, between "informed believer" and "skeptic". But at long last, I chose the "side" I would rather be counted among (skeptic).

 

[Wade]

I took this poll in another thread. I lean more towards being a believer in that I do not neccesarily need to experience anything on a personal level to accept its existence but I'm quite far away from accepting a paranormal explanation towards many events on an individual basis. It's funny how we...or me I guess..tend to compartmentalize our belief systems. Despite my above statement I do not believe in Santa or the Easter Bunny, a fact which many debunkers would consider hypocritical, I don't agree especially, in asmuch as I've never been an all or nothing guy, we live in a grey world not a black n white one

 

[Wade]

But....in another thread I speculated how if one is open to accepting that a strong collective belief in an idea can manifest that idea, then Santa and the Easter Bunny SHOULD.exist based on the belief of millions of kids around the world

 

[trainedobserver]

I've said many times that I do believe unexplained things happen to perfectly innocent people who simply don't know how to interpret them, and I don't think they deserve to be ridiculed. I think they should be allowed to relay their experiences without prejudice, and that everyone ( including the experiencer ) should be open to discussing it with a view to figuring out the truth about it.

If you'll reread what I posted, you'll see I am not talking about "unexplained things" that "happen to perfectly innocent people who simply don't know how to interpret them." I am talking about the prophets and channelers! Self proclaimed conduits of cosmic wisdom and law! If humanity would have told those idiots to sit down and shut-up every time one stood up to bark his nonsense in the past we'd all be living in a better world right now. No doubt in my mind. Ridicule and professional medical help are the answers to that problem.

 

[trainedobserver]

Yet they still cling, despite the mountain of evidence to the contrary that god is "good"

Given that all gods (3000 +) are fictional characters, what you are really talking about is a literary analysis of the character or characters (since there are always more than one) contained in some set of "holy scriptures" or another.

Mainstream Christianity uses a set of scriptures that depict a multi-personality character (3 person godhead) who orders the murder of children, human sacrifice, and genocidal wars.

Do we need to go beyond that in an attempt to justify the character's actions through some sort of mental or fantasy spiritual gymnastics? No we don't. To a normal healthy human being those things are abhorrent.

Those who think those things are justifiable (infanticide, genocide, human sacrifice) deserve all the ridicule (and distance) they get. It's not a mindset I want to be around.

 

[Randall]

If you'll reread what I posted, you'll see I am not talking about "unexplained things" that "happen to perfectly innocent people who simply don't know how to interpret them." I am talking about the prophets and channelers! Self proclaimed conduits of cosmic wisdom and law! If humanity would have told those idiots to sit down and shut-up every time one stood up to bark his nonsense in the past we'd all be living in a better world right now. No doubt in my mind. Ridicule and professional medical help are the answers to that problem.

I got it the first time around, and that's why I tagged the post with a like. My comment was just cautionary for those who might see it as a license to take it further than what's justified. If someone experiences something they honestly believe to be some kind of telepathic communication, we're inclined to be immediately skeptical, and justifiably so. However the responsible thing to do is investigate the claim as objectively as possible rather than automatically throwing it in the pile along with the cult opportunists. Here's what we should be asking before we cut the dogs loose:

• Are they willing to cooperate in an investigation and admit that whatever they claim to be experiencing may not be what they think it is?
  
• If yes ( above ), can they pass a repeatable and verifiable test of authenticity?
  
• Are they normal people who have been misled by indoctrination or similar programming?
  
• Are they the unwitting target of a hoax, e.g. ultrasonic projectors or another MK-Ultra like program.
  
• Are they suffering from a legitimate mental disorder?
  
• Are they attempting to build a cult-like following?
  
• Are they asking for money?
  
• Where is the money going?

I'm sure you get my point. Mockery and ridicule isn't even on the list. While I agree with you that in some cases it may be well deserved, is that really the job of the paranormal investigator?

 

[trainedobserver]

However the responsible thing to do is investigate the claim as objectively as possible rather than automatically throwing it in the pile along with the cult opportunists.

I get you. I think the first question really needs to be:

Do you claim to know, have a personal relationship with, speak for, or otherwise represent invisible, immutable, omniscient, omnipotent, and immortal supernatural beings who demand obedience, worship, and tribute from us according to the proclamations of their mouthpieces?

If the answer is yes, then you don't need to ask the rest. You can move on to more important things. Like raising dust bunnies or something.

 

[Tyger]

Sometimes we just need to chill......

LINK:

 

[Psychedelic_Alchemist]

Welcome to the forum! Can you elaborate? You believe what exactly? It passed your skeptical screening how?

Thanks for the welcome.

Well, I guess I want to believe in many of these fantastical tales regarding paranormal activity, and do believe at least to some extent, however, I like to remain skeptical until I've at least looked into them further or experienced something first hand that confirms what others have said. On the topic of UFOs, I do believe that there are unexplained sightings of craft which may be extraterrestrial or even interdimensional in nature. There have been far too many reports over the years from credible sources such as pilots, law enforcement officers etc for them to be so easily dismissed as some like to do. Ultimately, I take everything I read or hear on a case by case basis and try to look at the evidence presented in an objective way. If the evidence presented is too strong to refute then I won't easily dismiss it. On the other hand, if the details are sketchy and the individual presenting the information appears to be sketchy then I have a much harder time accepting the evidence put forward.

In a nutshell, I like to keep an open mind, but not so open that my brain falls out. Hence, a skeptical believer.

 

[trainedobserver]

I hate coming across so negative. Being an ex-believer in a lot of things I know I come across like an ex-smoker sometimes. I believe that the world is stranger than we any of us would like to admit, but I try to be skeptical of any extraordinary claim that gets made about it. This is largely based on experience. Extraordinary claims about the supernatural and paranormal have just not panned out. The subject of these claims usually turn out to be something other than what they first appeared to be or they are simply inexplicable rendering an interpretation such as "it was ghost", "it was an alien", or "it was Zeus" moot. Something weird happened. Imagine that. I immediately wonder if it has something to do with the instrument we're using to sense and interpret the world with, namely ourselves.

 

[Tyger]

I hate coming across so negative. Being an ex-believer in a lot of things I know I come across like an ex-smoker sometimes. I believe that the world is stranger than we any of us would like to admit, but I try to be skeptical of any extraordinary claim that gets made about it. This is largely based on experience. Extraordinary claims about the supernatural and paranormal have just not panned out. The subject of these claims usually turn out to be something other than what they first appeared to be or they are simply inexplicable rendering an interpretation such as "it was ghost", "it was an alien", or "it was Zeus" moot. Something weird happened. Imagine that. I immediately wonder if it has something to do with the instrument we're using to sense and interpret the world with, namely ourselves.

One needs to dance a bit, is my view. Play with the possibilities and not be so caught up in 'Truth' - leave that for ethics. IMO Most - if not all - ideas are heuristic devices. Some fit more elegantly than others. Science has some very elegant explanations - but so does 'spiritual' science.

Problem is, 'true believers' can occur in any stream, religious, scientific - you name it. Look at the conversations that take place over Global Warming, or 9/11. When it comes to that it's more about human nature than any objective 'truth'. Human nature drives most of the narrative - be it in religion, ancient documents or ufo sightings. It's being able to sift out the wheat from the chaff that is the challenge - and what 'heuristic device' one uses to make sense of the phenomenon should not be taken up like a 'true believer' on a mission to convert the ignorant.

It's my job to understand the world views of many people. That doesn't mean I don't have my own 'core beliefs' - but even those shift and change as time proceeds. However, it is essential - in my line of work - that I understand and don't impose. I find that discipline has meant that I have come across unexpected gems - and unexpected areas of commonality - in areas I never (on first viewing) expected. There is an old adage that there is a kernel of truth in everything. That occasionally has been a challenge - but it proves more true than not.

To quote Oliver Cromwell: "By the bowels of Christ I beseech you, bethink you, that you may be wrong."

 

[trainedobserver]

Tyger, is there really such a thing as "spiritual science?"
The products and benefits of the real sciences are all around us. We are using them right this moment.

The products of spiritual "science" are also evident in the confusion, division, and waste that are the legacy of 1000s of years of navel staring and supernatural chicanery.

When I use the word "spirituality" I want to use it to mean the inner workings of the whole human organism, the interplay of emotion, thought, and physicality and not extradimensional happenings off in some other realm of existence. In that "science" I'm sure there are many gems and things worth examining in depth.

 

[Randall]

One needs to dance a bit, is my view. Play with the possibilities and not be so caught up in 'Truth' - leave that for ethics ...

Truth comes first. Playing and dancing comes later. Otherwise you may find yourself playing and dancing
to Neo Nazi fund raisers while the ship is sinking. We don't want our dance to be shallow
and egocentric, devoid of meaningful expression. Below we have a clip from
the story of a dancer who is defecting for political reasons ...
and in this dance truth is both expressed and evoked.​

 

[starise]

Just an observation. It seems as if the most prolific posters are the most skeptical and rate in the minority of the poll on this thread.

 

[Tyger]

Just an observation. It seems as if the most prolific posters are the most skeptical and rate in the minority of the poll on this thread.

I actually posted as a skeptic - but my caveat was that I wasn't sure what the poll was addressing to begin with so I was unsure what I was skeptical about. If it's regarding ufo's then I'm a skeptic but I think the idea is fun to play with - and I wouldn't discount them out-of-hand - but other than a puzzling handful - there is really very little hard evidence to support the theory imo.

If it's regarding the paranormal then I do believe (and know) there is such, but - again - it's a very confused area and far less a mystery than simply a lack of self-knowledge and more often a lack of understanding human nature, or factoring that in.

 

[Tyger]

Tyger, is there really such a thing as "spiritual science?"

There is.

The products and benefits of the real sciences are all around us. We are using them right this moment.

By 'real' I think you mean 'physical' sciences. For sure.

The products of spiritual "science" are also evident in the confusion, division, and waste that are the legacy of 1000s of years of navel staring and supernatural chicanery.

IMO you are correctly identifying an aspect of 'spiritual science' - gone awry - and it is your spiritual faculties that are enabling you to make that discerning observation. Generally, especially those working at significant intellectual capacity beyond the lower mind, are working at spiritual levels. We have considerable evidence of the physical sciences going awry - mainly because 'spiritual science' did not keep pace hand-in-glove with physical 'advancements'.

It's been a very long day at work, with meetings until late - so I'm a bit frizzled but I would very much like to answer this question at greater length later. I think the answer - that I know - is a fascinating one.

When I use the word "spirituality" I want to use it to mean the inner workings of the whole human organism, the interplay of emotion, thought, and physicality

That is absolutely part of it - the beginning part of it - not the whole of it.

and not extradimensional happenings off in some other realm of existence.

It's not off somewhere, though. It's right here and now - perceptible to those who 'see'. Being able to 'see' in that way is dependent on many factors.

In that "science" I'm sure there are many gems and things worth examining in depth.

For sure - but what is very often misunderstood is that it is a realm of laws as definite as any physical laws.

It is incumbent upon the individual to make the effort to enter that realm consciously while still alive - though we are all destined for it by the sheer fact of death being the endgame.

Individuals who are traversing the path of spiritual knowledge in the here and now are known by their effects, both in person and in the world. No one can tell you that you have 'arrived' - there is no authority that dispenses the 'honor'. No such person would ever make any claims. Such a scientist is 'hidden' - not because they are making that effort - but because it is not possible to recognize such a one unless one is already on the path oneself, starting to awaken one's latent capacities. In some ways the 'hidden' aspect is a protection.

It is also beyond all authority and any institution. It is truly the realm of freedom - and why the Spirit has always been feared. A world or civilization where everyone was a 'spiritual scientist' would look and operate very differently from the world we see and experience now. By definition such a civilization would be both technologically advanced and unrecognizable to us - it would be without external authority or institutions as we know them - no government as we understand government - a condition that with our current thinking and capacities we cannot fathom.

There are scientists of the physical realm who are also spiritual scientists - and when such a one is encountered it is an exceptional experience. All-in-all, a fascinating area to study.

 

[mike]

Ancient Confession Found: 'We Invented Jesus Christ'

American Biblical scholar Joseph Atwill will be appearing before the British public for the first time in London on the 19th of October to present a controversial new discovery: ancient confessions recently uncovered now prove, according to Atwill, that the New Testament was written by first-century Roman aristocrats and that they fabricated the entire story of Jesus Christ. His presentation will be part of a one-day symposium entitled "Covert Messiah" at Conway Hall in Holborn

Although Christianity can be a comfort to some, it can also be very damaging and repressive, an insidious form of mind control that has led to blind acceptance of serfdom, poverty, and war throughout history. To this day, especially in the United States, it is used to create support for war in the Middle East."
Atwill encourages skeptics to challenge him at Conway Hall, where after the presentations there is likely to be a lively Q&A session. Joining Mr.Atwill will be fellow scholar Kenneth Humphreys, author of the book "Jesus Never Existed."

 

[trainedobserver]

Tyger,

You say "There is." such a thing as "spiritual science."

Can you give me an example of what you are referring to and the name of a spiritual scientist or two?

Also, if you could provide a couple of examples of the products of said science that have benefited humanity. A couple of genuine "discoveries" made by spiritual science would be appreciated as well.