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Where do you fit in as a believer or skeptic?

Where do you fit in as a believer or skeptic?


  • Total voters
    43

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Just an observation. It seems as if the most prolific posters are the most skeptical and rate in the minority of the poll on this thread.

I guess "The Informed Believers" are choosing not to inform us.

Question to anyone: Would members of a cargo cult or those who employ cargo cult science be considered informed believers? They have some of the information and they "believe" wholeheartedly. They just believe wrongly based on the information available to them.

cargo_cult_plane.jpg
 
Very, Very, good point trained, but I would tweak it just a little bit. Maybe you could say they believe correctly based on the information they possess BUT believe incorrectly based on the information that they don't possess(but others do)
 
Very, Very, good point trained, but I would tweak it just a little bit. Maybe you could say they believe correctly based on the information they possess BUT believe incorrectly based on the information that they don't possess(but others do)

I think they would consider themselves informed believers. They understand something has happened, but their conclusions about it are based in ignorance and therefore their beliefs about it are false. They believe incorrectly that the forms and rituals they have constructed will produce more goods.
 
I guess "The Informed Believers" are choosing not to inform us.

Question to anyone: Would members of a cargo cult or those who employ cargo cult science be considered informed believers? They have some of the information and they "believe" wholeheartedly. They just believe wrongly based on the information available to them.

cargo_cult_plane.jpg

A short video on Cargo Cults - With that scene as posted above:

 
I am reminded of the various UFO cults who perform rituals and so forth. There have also been organizations and individuals who have built UFO landing pads in an attempt to attract aliens.
In fact, we have a UFO landing pad up here in St. Paul Alberta. I never actually saw the comparison before, but it's funny now that I think about it that way. Although, to my knowledge no UFO religions are associated with it. That's reserved for Ufoland and the Raëlians, which are a recognized religion in Canada ( oh those wacky Canadians ) :D .
 
I think they would consider themselves informed believers. They understand something has happened, but their conclusions about it are based in ignorance and therefore their beliefs about it are false. They believe incorrectly that the forms and rituals they have constructed will produce more goods.

Very, Very, good point trained, but I would tweak it just a little bit. Maybe you could say they believe correctly based on the information they possess BUT believe incorrectly based on the information that they don't possess(but others do)

An example of rational thought. An example of scientific thought, too. An example of a lot of earnest striving falling short of the 'real deal'. Question is: when is it ever the 'real deal'? When do we have the whole thing sorted? Have we ever? Really - do we 'know'?

TrainedObserver: read your questions - maybe this weekend? Though you won't like the 'answers' I'll give, methinks. ;) The answers require a 'new way of thinking.'
 
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TrainedObserver: read your questions - maybe this weekend? Though you won't like the 'answers' I'll give, methinks. ;) The answers require a 'new way of thinking.'

I look forward to your response. As with anything else, "Does this new way of thinking produce reliable and repeatable results?" That's the test. In preparing your reply please bear in mind my short attention span. Naming a "spiritual scientist" and giving an example of applied spiritual science would be simple I'd think. As in: Physical Scientist - William Shockley, Contribution - The Semiconductor.
 
I look forward to your response. As with anything else, "Does this new way of thinking produce reliable and repeatable results?" That's the test. In preparing your reply please bear in mind my short attention span. Naming a "spiritual scientist" and giving an example of applied spiritual science would be simple I'd think. As in: Physical Scientist - William Shockley, Contribution - The Semiconductor.

:p Will do - but being prolix is half the fun.

Have come home to a simply delicious house-warmth on a chilly night. We will have a fire and some cozy time. Maybe even watch some episodes of 'Andromeda'. :)

Saturday night I will likely answer - unless the bug gets into me later tonight. Many thanks for patience.
 
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I look forward to your response. As with anything else, "Does this new way of thinking produce reliable and repeatable results?" That's the test. In preparing your reply please bear in mind my short attention span.

Naming a "spiritual scientist" and giving an example of applied spiritual science would be simple I'd think. As in: Physical Scientist - William Shockley, Contribution - The Semiconductor.

Ah, TrainedObserver - tisn't that simple. I've 'only just' sat down to focus on this - but I have been tossing it about in my mind the past days, because it's not a simple answer.

Fact is, anyone working at high, abstract levels of thought is working in spiritual realms - but whether they are a spiritual scientist is only for them to say. For me to name who I have identified as such is to enter into the realm of belief for you - which I will not do. I am not an authority. One can tell by effects - the effects of pursuing spiritual science has clear markers. The reliable and repeatable results are there but only for those who have developed the capacities to discern them.

If I named someone how would you judge the veracity of my claim? For that is all it would be - throwing it into the arena of belief. I may actually know where-of I speak, but you have no way of discerning whether I am speaking accurately. How would you know? How would you discern the truth or untruth of my claim? By critical thinking? Such analysis is applicable to the earthly, material realm - but something very different is needed for the spiritual.

However, the above said, the existence of physical science that is as well spiritual science, exists, and parallels mainstream, pop-culture science. Oft-times the two scientific streams meet - as in a sprinkling of Nobel Laureates (I could name names but I choose not to for the reasons given). The influence of this alternate stream does find it's way into materially-based science - the two streams do a (hidden) dance with each other.

My answer is perhaps not what you want. I had a hunch it would disappoint you - maybe it hasn't - but if so, it's because you have already decided the frame for the answer. Outside that frame, and the reception is dismissal.

The key is interest - where does your interest lie? More, where does the interest of your times lie? Interest is everything. Interest frames the question - and the expected answer.

To quote from one of my teachers - in the 600 years since 1400 more things have been discovered and invented than in all the thousands of years of human history before 1400. I would amend that a bit - the last 600 years have seen an explosion of applied knowledge imo. The Chinese actually discovered and invented more prior to 1400 than we ever did - I would hazard to suggest (I could be wrong) - but their applications were simple. Why? Because there wasn't an interest to go further. In Europe there was an interest in technical things and there's a 'cultural' reason for that.

We make a mistake if we think the Greeks and Romans weren't clever enough to be as smart as us. Yet, Heron, a clever Greek in Alexandria, made a contraption that used the steam from boiling water to turn a wheel. It went no further than being an interesting toy - as with the Chinese with their innumerable discoveries and inventions. What changed was interest. We as a culture since 1400 have been interested in technical inventions - hence, your question, and the expected frame for the answer.

There has to be malleable thought and an ability to think metaphorically - for words pertain to the physical, material world where they have been coined. To access other realms one must be able to work with qualities that cannot be grasped in earthly concepts. One can drag our language into that realm but one will lose entre quickly - the gateway will be sealed - it has always been so. Entry cannot be forced. [What I am saying cannot be taken as a physical reality - these are laws of the spiritual realms that work outside of any institution or authority.]

But I am being prolix. There is so much to say - all of it of consummate interest imo.
 
... What I am saying cannot be taken as a physical reality - these are laws of the spiritual realms that work outside of any institution or authority ...
So how do we know that these laws are even real, let alone in any way analogous to science? Let me answer that for you. We don't. It's more New Agey mumbo jumbo.
 
in the 600 years since 1400 more things have been discovered and invented than in all the thousands of years of human history before 1400. I would amend that a bit - the last 600 years have seen an explosion of applied knowledge imo. The Chinese actually discovered and invented more prior to 1400 than we ever did

Who's the "we" indicate here? Non-Chinese? The "We" doesn't even make since if you take it to mean "American" or even "the west." And at any rate what does "thing" mean here? I would say that more "things" have been invented in the last 100 years than all of history prior combined. This statement is false on so many levels.
 
So how do we know that these laws are even real, let alone in any way analogous to science? Let me answer that for you. We don't. It's more New Agey mumbo jumbo.

I hesitate to respond to your post because you have long made it clear you have an inability to respect varying points of view and approaches to reality - which in itself means you are precluded from knowledge. One must have a 'religious attitude' of soul - a sense of the sacred - a respect for all endeavor and human striving - to be able to access the subtler realms as a conscious researcher. Responding to your post and I have to accept that you may possibly begin your usual hectoring and playground name-calling. Tiresome. However......

Be aware that an inability to treat the world with reverence - and to have a tolerance for all thought - however varying and initially incomprehensible - precludes you from the first entry to the spiritual worlds beyond the physical. [It is a hard one - because we live in a cynical world - victims of our own inordinate critical faculty - unaware that it is interest and attention that brings forth knowledge - even with the physical scientists - who must 'love' what they study in order to extract it's secrets.] Such an attitude of soul - criticism - condemns you to the outer courtyard with the unwitting. I have not done this to you by my pronouncement - no one can banish you - you banish yourself. The instrument of perception into the spiritual worlds is the human being itself - not a telescope or a microscope. Just as a more refined physical instrument garners more information of the physical universe - so does a more refined human instrument garner you entre to the very realms you persist in claiming do not exist though for millennia these realms have been reported.

The science of this is the fully conscious entry into the ethereal realms, with the ability to identify what one sees and oft-times manipulate said realms. Nikola Tesla is an example of such explorations on the more physical end of the spectrum. But such a science is far more subtle and is the source of the phrase - that I know unsettles you or you disdain - that is stated: 'You must die before your death.'

What does that occult injunction signify? We understand that every human being experiences the spiritual realms once they die their physical death. That is a given. At that juncture, one is required to proceed into the spiritual worlds, regardless of what one wants, desires, or believes. The injunction 'die before your death', however, is indicating that if one would be a true occultist - a 'knower', one treading the path of knowledge - a spiritual scientist - one must begin the process of crossing in full consciousness into the spiritual realms while still inhabiting a physical body. To do this means that one's after-death experiences will be vastly more intelligent and comprehensive - with an ability to stay 'conscious' far into the devachanic realms. The laws are real because anyone who explores the subtler realms reports pretty much the same information. In fact, there are extant 'manuals' that give a good heads-up on what to expect at various points in esoteric development.

To say that conscious occult development is dangerous is an understatement - it is littered with pitfalls - and even the greatest fall from the heights (evidence: human history - and the litany of horror stories most are willing to relate). But is is also our destiny. The temptation of pride and the use of said knowledge for personal gain in the earthly realm are ever present dangers. There are more warnings to turn back on this path than there are encouragements to enter. Live a good life - love, raise a family, do good works, abide with tolerance and compassion among one's fellows - but seek not entry to this realm of knowledge (the Occult Path). Yet if the clarion call is heard - if nothing will satisfy but taking this step, then the way opens. [The word 'occult' has suffered a battering over time - it means 'hidden' and refers to 'hidden knowledge' - not in the sense that I am 'hiding all my physics books from you' - but hidden in the sense that entre to that world of knowledge is dependent solely upon the refinement of the human instrument. No one can bar you from that realm when you are ready.]

One law to always keep in mind: you will not be able to 'see' anything you do not have an affinity with. That is why 'purification' of the lower bodies is the first step towards objective 'seeing'. If you have the misfortune to begin 'seeing' astrally before any purification has occurred, you will be 'seeing' that which you have an identity with, and what you 'see' may be nightmares. It may also be confused and jumbled. One must have inner command before one can actively - in full consciousness - tread the subtler realms.

The above said - it must be stated that inner command can be developed, access achieved and choices made for what has been called - colloquially - the Left-Hand Path. More death-dealing has been done to the soul and spirit of humankind by this choice than any other fact. More wars have been spawned by human error in this way than by spiritual oversight - but human beings accessing from the 'left' will meet with what they resemble, and be therefore 'used'.

Not everyone chooses the Occult or Knowledge Path. For some the Path of Devotion, or other paths, are the ways through the labyrinth of earthly existence. For all of us on the earth, however, the Path of Love is our destiny - but in free will. Short or long the end is certain. What is currently taking place in our time is a shift in humanity's 'interest'. We are shifting from a materially-based interest to a more spiritually based interest - and as at all turning points, what we are leaving becomes accentuated and there is a time of turmoil as humanity adjusts to the new 'interest'. Where we place our interest will determine what we pursue and what we find, what we value and what we build.

The physical universe is a dead-end. The physical universe is quite literally dead - and it's 'worship' is a sure road to existential despair, and an initially hard experience in the spiritual worlds. The physical universe is the furthest expansion of spiritual realms. The source of the physical universe is the spiritual worlds - which are not 'up' and 'out' - but interpenetrate all worlds. You will know this - understand this - when you start to tread the path of the spiritual scientist. Whatever we see in the physical universe is the result of a creation in spiritual worlds. Both Plato and Aristotle were right.

But you must start the path before more words are spoken - for words can mislead and misdirect. Experience must be the ultimate guide. You are your own authority - albeit you must step gingerly and carefully, testing one self in the small ways, so that when the big ways come, you can step confidently onto the path in earnest, knowing - not believing.
 
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Who's the "we" indicate here? Non-Chinese? The "We" doesn't even make since if you take it to mean "American" or even "the west." And at any rate what does "thing" mean here? I would say that more "things" have been invented in the last 100 years than all of history prior combined. This statement is false on so many levels.

The cutting-edge of civilization. That cutting-edge shifts. We are currently undergoing one of those shifts. The point of awareness for humanity.

Not sure what the concern is about a very simple general statement - 100 years is included in 600 years. Anyway - whatever.
 
The cutting-edge of civilization. That cutting-edge shifts. We are currently undergoing one of those shifts. The point of awareness for humanity.

Not sure what the concern is about a very simple general statement - 100 years is included in 600 years. Anyway - whatever.

Wow...I must have really botched the parsing of this sentence:

To quote from one of my teachers - in the 600 years since 1400 more things have been discovered and invented than in all the thousands of years of human history before 1400. I would amend that a bit - the last 600 years have seen an explosion of applied knowledge imo.

I read it as "in the years before 1400 more things have been discovered than in the last 600 years..."

Apologies...I guess I have been staring at a screen for too long this weekend.

I think the following sentence caused a small seismic event in my head:

"The Chinese actually discovered and invented more prior to 1400 than we ever did"
 
Sometimes after expositions on this subject and of this order I feel a need to 'clean the pallette' a bit with something transcendent - beyond words - and just enjoy -

"Chi il Bel Sogno di Doretta" from Puccini's La Rondine.

The exquisite Leontyne Price: LINK:

The brilliant Kiri te Kanawa: LINK:
 
I think the following sentence caused a small seismic event in my head:

"The Chinese actually discovered and invented more prior to 1400 than we ever did"

'than we ever did' prior to 1400.....seismic event.....a bit of ethnocentricism? ;) What a different world it would have been had the Chinese fleet been the one to set off exploring instead of being pulled back into isolationism.

Ah, yes - it's me just trying to make a point about applied science versus just general messing about. It's striking how much came into Europe from elsewhere - and particularly China. It's very impressive how much they actually knew. The Greeks worked out that the world was round, for example. An artist like Leonardo was messing about with intricate performances for his patrons - all where one's 'interest' and attention lie. Stuff like that. Applied science is eventually where Europe excelled imo. You can disagree, of course.

It remains an open question whether we are more knowledgable philosophically now than in any other time - though it is our conceit that we are. We are amazingly certain of our superiority. Both charming and deadly.
 
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I hesitate to respond to your post because you have long made it clear you have an inability to respect varying points of view and approaches to reality - which in itself means you are precluded from knowledge. One must have a 'religious attitude' of soul - a sense of the sacred - a respect for all endeavor and human striving - to be able to access the subtler realms as a conscious researcher. Responding to your post and I have to accept that you may possibly begin your usual hectoring and playground name-calling. Tiresome.
Telling it like it is isn't name calling. If a post bears all the garb of New Age gobbledegook, then it's perfectly fair to call it that. Let's first have a look at the definition:

gob·ble·dy·gook [góbb’ldee g?k] or gob·ble·de·gook [góbb’ldee g?k] noun
nonsense or jargon: language that is difficult or impossible to understand, especially either nonsense or long-winded technical jargon ( Encarta )

Now let's see if it fits:
Be aware that an inability to treat the world with reverence - and to have a tolerance for all thought - however varying and initially incomprehensible - precludes you from the first entry to the spiritual worlds beyond the physical. [It is a hard one - because we live in a cynical world - victims of our own inordinate critical faculty - unaware that it is interest and attention that brings forth knowledge - even with the physical scientists - who must 'love' what they study in order to extract it's secrets.] Such an attitude of soul - criticism - condemns you to the outer courtyard with the unwitting. I have not done this to you by my pronouncement - no one can banish you - you banish yourself. The instrument of perception into the spiritual worlds is the human being itself - not a telescope or a microscope. Just as a more refined physical instrument garners more information of the physical universe - so does a more refined human instrument garner you entre to the very realms you persist in claiming do not exist though for millennia these realms have been reported.
Yup, still fits.
The science of this is the fully conscious entry into the ethereal realms, with the ability to identify what one sees and oft-times manipulate said realms. Nikola Tesla is an example of such explorations on the more physical end of the spectrum. But such a science is far more subtle and is the source of the phrase - that I know unsettles you or you disdain - that is stated: 'You must die before your death.'

What does that occult injunction signify? We understand that every human being experiences the spiritual realms once they die their physical death. That is a given. At that juncture, one is required to proceed into the spiritual worlds, regardless of what one wants, desires, or believes. The injunction 'die before your death', however, is indicating that if one would be a true occultist - a 'knower', one treading the path of knowledge - a spiritual scientist - one must begin the process of crossing in full consciousness into the spiritual realms while still inhabiting a physical body. To do this means that one's after-death experiences will be vastly more intelligent and comprehensive - with an ability to stay 'conscious' far into the devachanic realms. The laws are real because anyone who explores the subtler realms reports pretty much the same information. In fact, there are extant 'manuals' that give a good heads-up on what to expect at various points in esoteric development.
Mmm hmm, still fits.
To say that conscious occult development is dangerous is an understatement - it is littered with pitfalls - and even the greatest fall from the heights (evidence: human history - and the litany of horror stories most are willing to relate). But is is also our destiny. The temptation of pride and the use of said knowledge for personal gain in the earthly realm are ever present dangers. There are more warnings to turn back on this path than there are encouragements to enter. Live a good life - love, raise a family, do good works, abide with tolerance and compassion among one's fellows - but seek not entry to this realm of knowledge (the Occult Path). Yet if the clarion call is heard - if nothing will satisfy but taking this step, then the way opens. [The word 'occult' has suffered a battering over time - it means 'hidden' and refers to 'hidden knowledge' - not in the sense that I am 'hiding all my physics books from you' - but hidden in the sense that entre to that world of knowledge is dependent solely upon the refinement of the human instrument. No one can bar you from that realm when you are ready.]
OK, it still fits.
One law to always keep in mind: you will not be able to 'see' anything you do not have an affinity with. That is why 'purification' of the lower bodies is the first step towards objective 'seeing'. If you have the misfortune to begin 'seeing' astrally before any purification has occurred, you will be 'seeing' that which you have an identity with, and what you 'see' may be nightmares. It may also be confused and jumbled. One must have inner command before one can actively - in full consciousness - tread the subtler realms.

The above said - it must be stated that inner command can be developed, access achieved and choices made for what has been called - colloquially - the Left-Hand Path. More death-dealing has been done to the soul and spirit of humankind by this choice than any other fact. More wars have been spawned by human error in this way than by spiritual oversight - but human beings accessing from the 'left' will meet with what they resemble, and be therefore 'used'.
And that fits too.
Not everyone chooses the Occult or Knowledge Path. For some the Path of Devotion, or other paths, are the ways through the labyrinth of earthly existence. For all of us on the earth, however, the Path of Love is our destiny - but in free will. Short or long the end is certain. What is currently taking place in our time is a shift in humanity's 'interest'. We are shifting from a materially-based interest to a more spiritually based interest - and as at all turning points, what we are leaving becomes accentuated and there is a time of turmoil as humanity adjusts to the new 'interest'. Where we place our interest will determine what we pursue and what we find, what we value and what we build.

The physical universe is a dead-end. The physical universe is quite literally dead - and it's 'worship' is a sure road to existential despair, and an initially hard experience in the spiritual worlds. The physical universe is the furthest expansion of spiritual realms. The source of the physical universe is the spiritual worlds - which are not 'up' and 'out' - but interpenetrate all worlds. You will know this - understand this - when you start to tread the path of the spiritual scientist. Whatever we see in the physical universe is the result of a creation in spiritual worlds. Both Plato and Aristotle were right.

But you must start the path before more words are spoken - for words can mislead and misdirect. Experience must be the ultimate guide. You are your own authority - albeit you must step gingerly and carefully, testing one self in the small ways, so that when the big ways come, you can step confidently onto the path in earnest, knowing - not believing.
Well, at least you're consistent. Thanks for proving my point one more time. Now if you want to cut the long winded gobbledygook and try another approach. Let's start with this one statement of yours, to quote: "We understand that every human being experiences the spiritual realms once they die their physical death. That is a given." Please tell me what you mean by:
  • Spiritual
  • Spiritual realm
  • Physical death
Why should we take that statement as a given?
 
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You have proved my expectations of you. So what else is new?

Ufology, there is a saying - from the Bible, no less - about not casting pearls before swine. You do not demonstrate an ability to entertain any thoughts beyond your own world view. You have a very strong filter. It is what it is.

I think your best bet is to get your answers from some 'New Ager' - since your belief system is very rigid that such a thing exists. Happy hunting.
 
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