A question for UFO skeptics.

[Randall]

So what if it's been "disputed", show me where he is actually in error. Let's start with these two points:

A. "30 out of 32 balloons that passed out of the state went east or south.
B. Winds for June 4, 1947, were also wrong to take a balloon from Alamogordo to the debris field site.

All I've see to actually dispute it are claims that use figures that was supposedly unavailable in the first place ( the conveniently lost data showing there was even an actual balloon launch in the first place that corresponds to the Roswell incident ). And then there is some more information here:

"First, let me point out that Charles Moore prepared detailed report on Project Mogul Flight No. 4 using his expertise and winds aloft data that I supplied to him. As I have mentioned before, that data only went to 20,000 feet and it was often incomplete with several stations either not reporting or reporting only partial data. Even the layman, looking at these data see that the winds are wildly variable and often blowing in nearly opposite directions from one altitude to the next."

"Crary’s diary entries for June 4 are puzzling because they are contradictory. My examination of his original handwritten entries suggests that he copied from other notes;"

"And another interpretation, based on earlier entries is that there was no flight No. 4. Crary’s diary for the trip to New Mexico notes on June 3, "Up at 2:30 AM ready to fly balloons but finally abandoned due to cloudy skies. I went out to Tularosa Range and fired charges from 6 on to 12. (Mogul detonation seen here). Missed 5:30 shot - trouble getting ordnance men.

That seems to eliminate Flight No. 4. It is not recorded in the final documents associated with Project Mogul. Remember, Moore himself noted that Crary had copied over his field notes in one sitting so there is the distinct possibility that he copied them incorrectly so that we have an impression that there was a later flight of balloons on June 4 which would have been Flight No. 4. But we have no real record of it. Instead we have Flight No. 5 the next morning, the first of the recorded New Mexican flights. Something else the skeptics fail to mention."

 

[Goggs Mackay]

I have never had an encounter myself that I can remember, however I have spoken to a few people personally over the years who convinced me that they had observed something outside of common experience which for all practical purposes fit the criteria for UFOs and paranormal interaction. In full disclosure, I have to say that I also bought an MGB and attempted to drive it daily as though it were a real car while maintaining it myself.

I might find that funny if I had known what an MGB was in the first place! (queue tumbleweed rolling and whistling wind)..

 

[trainedobserver]

A 1976 Morris Garage B model.

This isn't a picture of mine but it could be, the hood is up. I removed my engine in a similar cramped garage. Only I didn't have snow shovel one on my wall.

 

[Randall]

@ Ufology:

Yeah, I linked the page. Did you bother to look? Thomas does show how Rudiak is in error.

You never posted that wind data, I see.

I am done talking with you.

Lance

Uh ... no he doesn't show how Rudiak is in error. He disputes what he says using his own interpretation of the same data; data that according to the other link I posted is based on a combination of incomplete and unverified data and hand written notes that seem to be contradictory ( at the very least ). Add to that that there are no official records for the alleged launch and your own skeptical radar should be pinging ... but it's not? Why not? Why are you so sure it must have been a Mogul balloon?

On the other hand, what I said in the first place still holds true. Given the prevailing winds it wasn't likely that it was a mogul balloon. To further support that, let's also add the statistic that 30 out of 32 balloons that passed out of the state went east or south. I see no dispute regarding that data, and we still have no actual evidence that this flight #4 ever even took place ( actually now we have notes that seem to say it never actually happened ).

So let's take quick stock: We have no evidence a Mogul launch actually took place and over 90% odds against your preferred theory even if there was a launch, yet we're supposed to simply believe it? Let's just say I'm still skeptical.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

@Trained - Oh yeah, nice lookin' motor. Is that 'British Racing Green' - the colour? As much as it might be nice to own and drive such a car I imagine the upkeep is expensive and spare parts etc a pain in the purse to get? Unless you really luck out, cars that age always have something going wrong - not always major but enough to warrant repair.
Of course, some men like that aspect of classic cars -I know a few guys who are NEVER satisfied with ANY car they own. Constantly trying to improve the engine in, frankly, a futile effort to squeeze an extra 'horse-power' out of it, an improvement that no-one can even tell exists.

No matter what dream car they get, they HAVE to 'fix' or 'improve' something and if there is nothing left to 'fix' that is unbearable and they go and get a different car, often not as good as the one they just got rid of! They don't care if it's a worse car - as long as there is stuff to 'fix' and 'improve' they are more content having stuff to work on on their car!


I appreciate a nice car but I am rarely interested in stats and big engines etc. I don't like a really patheticly under-powered car as it's nice to have a bit of oooomph, but really for me I only look for 3 things in a car I'm buying: reliability, reliability and reliability!

 

[nameless]

 

[Goggs Mackay]

bumba doody-wanna (phoentics of backing vocals)

 

[trainedobserver]

My MGB was red, or should I say reddish in spots where the paint still clung to the metal. A constant pain in the ass, the things the British thought were carburetors were designed in hell by something with a wicked sense of humor. You know you are in trouble when you look down at the speedometer and it says "Negative Earth" on it. It was supposed to be my wife's car, but I would get these calls like, "There is smoke coming from the steering column, what should I do?" (huh, wimmings!) and such so I took to driving it.

After several years of battle I finally gave up and sold it to another fellow who never made it home with it before he blew the engine slap out of the thing with a blown radiator hose. He just kept driving! Once again showing the poor judgement of someone who would buy such a thing.

 

[Randall]

Let's also consider this statement ( re: Mogul balloon ):

According to Moore: "I have a memory of J. R. Smith watching the June 4th cluster through a theodolite on a clear, sunny morning and that Capt. Dyvad reported that the Watson Lab radar had lost the targets while Smith had then in view. It is also my recollection that the cluster was tracked about 75 miles from Alamogordo by the crew in the B-17. As I remember this flight, the B-17 crew terminated their chase, while the balloons were still airborne (and J.R. was still watching them), in the vicinity of Capitan Peak, Arabela and Bluewater, NM."

So they watched it that morning travel over 400 KM in just a few hours ... ( NW toward Arabela and then NE toward Bluewater ) ... hmm ... must have been pretty windy up there. Pretty powerful theodolite too. Bluewater is over 300 Km away.

 

[bbridges]

A 1976 Morris Garage B model.

This isn't a picture of mine but it could be, the hood is up. I removed my engine in a similar cramped garage. Only I didn't have snow shovel one on my wall.

I bought my first car when I graduated from OCS-bought a red '66 MGB with white sidewalls and wire wheels from a dealer in Witchata Falls(?). What did I know about British cars in Texas heat-overheated, warped the head, and that was the beginning of my career as the 'maintainer' of this obsession. Gotta chuckle, Ricky, cuz I know exactly what you mean...still, romantic that I am, I LOVED that POS!

 

[Goggs Mackay]

What does it say about the reputation of used-car salesmen when I read bbridges' post above in which he writes 'from a dealer in Witchata Falls'.
I swear when I first read that line I saw 'wheeler dealer'!

(So is that their bad rep. or my over-active mind?)

 

[trainedobserver]

I...a red '66 MGB with white sidewalls and wire wheels from a dealer in Witchata Falls(?).

You had the twin SU carburetors! Those were known to cause premature baldness.

Obligatory UFO reference:
I once thought I saw a UFO while driving my MGB down LBJ in my BVDs while eating a BLT.

Sorry to have gotten so far off topic.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Wow Rick, too many TLA's (three-letter acronyms!)

 

[nameless]

Is that a BLT research BLT? Bacon lettuce tomato on a bed of cut out photos from books borrowed off your neighbours?

 

[pixelsmith]

A 1976 Morris Garage B model.

This isn't a picture of mine but it could be, the hood is up. I removed my engine in a similar cramped garage. Only I didn't have snow shovel one on my wall.

that is a pretty typical shot of an MG. lol... i almost bought an MGB GT once.

 

[pixelsmith]

Here is what i got instead of an MGB and what I did to it in 1999.
It could zip around similar to a UFO... (UFO reference)
and yes... that is a 1972 Volvo 1800 ES (2 door station wagon).

 

[trainedobserver]

Here is what i got instead of an MGB and what I did to it in 1999.
It could zip around similar to a UFO... (UFO reference)
and yes... that is a 1972 Volvo 1800 ES (2 door station wagon).

I ran the "after" photo through the superduper pattern recognition software on the Crays and found this!

 

[pixelsmith]

funny... wrong side tho.
to fill you all in, my head was out the window during a violent rollover and the upper 3/4 of my ear was cut off as the car rolled over on my head. i wear my hair fairly long so you cant tell.
the car was sold to a guy in canada and he actually restored it. The car is winning trophies in car shows now.

 

[trainedobserver]

funny... wrong side tho.
to fill you all in, my head was out the window during a violent rollover and the upper 3/4 of my ear was cut off as the car rolled over on my head. i wear my hair fairly long so you cant tell.
the car was sold to a guy in canada and he actually restored it. The car is winning trophies in car shows now.

You are a good sport. That had to smart.

 

[pixelsmith]

You are a good sport. That had to smart.

the broken C2 vertebra in my neck, the massive gashes in my head, forehead, the punctures, bruises, etc etc all hurt bad but not as bad as the hurt when i walked around the wreak in the pitch black night feeling all the damage to my car... yes.. with all that bodily damage i still took time to check out my car before walking about 2 miles towards the nearest emergency room where a highway cop pulled over and called for an ambulance. while waiting he said it looked like i lost a fight with Mike Tyson... i had no idea what he was talking about at the time. While in the emergency room laying on a gurney i hear 2 doctors talking about how tragic it was that i would never walk again and it was a miracle i was not dead... i am thinking wtf... i walked half way here... so i lifted my leg up to see if i was indeed paralyzed and scared the crap out of these 2 doctors. i found out later they were resident doctors in training and they drilled holes in my head in the wrong places for the halo cast... so... they had to drill 4 more holes, they keep you awake when they do this and it is extremely painful... and that was the second time i broke my neck. the first time was in 1973 when i broke C5. norwegians are tough to kill... the lightning strike i received in 2000 came close tho.

we should get this thread back on topic. sorry!