Banned From The UFO Collective Google Group

[trainedobserver]

Reminds me of the robots of the future from A.I. which remind me of aliens. These were true robots however, and were looking for clues about their makers and not post-human things. When I read "post-biological society" I read "dead society" replaced by robots.

 

[Jeff Davis]

Reminds me of the robots of the future from A.I. which remind me of aliens. These were true robots however, and were looking for clues about their makers and not post-human things. When I read "post-biological society" I read "dead society" replaced by robots.

I'd kind of like to watch this movie again. It truly didn't do much for me when I saw it at the theater when it came out. I have done this with music several times and had it blow me away the second time around.

 

[manxman]

its an interesting concept AI of the future, or futuristic AI to us, but it just makes complete sense to me, to send clever probes out to explore the universe, im sure humans will do it more and more, with more and more sophistication, but self-aware AI, as in the human sense, is along way of in the future for mankind, if ever, unless we capture it in the mean time.

anyway why would we want to corrupt the perfect technology with human trait's, an AI with free will, free of constraint, would be a monster, and a prisoner/slave under constraint..

 

[marduk]

Thought experiment #3 (boy, I'm full of it today, it must be Friday)

Premise #1 the many worlds interpretation is true. Every possible alternative history and future are true... just separated in parallel universes.

Premise #2 travelling between universes is actually much, much easier than travelling between the stars.

What would happen?

We'd expect to see many weird variants of ourselves to pop in and out of existence as they travel around exploring. Humans nearly indistinguishable from us, intelligent insects, intelligent dinosaurs, whatever. Mostly earth-style creatures (because they'd be coming from alternate earths) but visitors to our plane of existence nonetheless.

Why would they be coming here? I dunno, why would we go there? To check it out, see if there's interesting tech or resources to grab, to say hello, sleep with the natives, have a fun weekend. Why not?

The only drawback to this thought experiment that I see is that there'd be no point keeping things a secret. Why bother when you could scoot off to the universe next door that's exactly identical to this one except they don't know we're coming?

 

[Constance]

His update as far as i can see deals only with the fact that he wasnt happy about the lack of report or co-operation from Auchettl.
I haven seen anything where he says he thinks Cahill is lying

His criticism is directed at PRA, not the case itself



I have never heard him denounce Cahill or the case when ive attended his lectures

Indeed he mentions a third researcher



As to why PRA have refused to release their report, i dont know. But we see it a lot in this genre.

It doesnt imo negate the individual case itself or the AAP in general

I agree. I particularly don't see a reason here to question the integrity of Bill Chalker, who seems to have dedicated his adult life to uncovering evidence concerning the ufo phenomenon and sharing it with other researchers. There could be any number of reasons why PRA has held back its report, including pressures and even threats such as we have heard about from numerous sources for many decades now. This attempt to undermine a highly respected researcher seems to be an example of what the OP described at the outset of this thread -- the willing or unwilling (or possibly unwitting) complicity of so-called skeptics with the goals of organized debunkers.

 

[Constance]

its an interesting concept AI of the future, or futuristic AI to us, but it just makes complete sense to me, to send clever probes out to explore the universe, im sure humans will do it more and more, with more and more sophistication, but self-aware AI, as in the human sense, is along way of in the future for mankind, if ever, unless we capture it in the mean time.

anyway why would we want to corrupt the perfect technology with human trait's, an AI with free will, free of constraint, would be a monster, and a prisoner/slave under constraint..

Well said, manxman. That way lies madness.

 

[Constance]

Seconding and applauding what Mike wrote here:

"The thing is, none of us sitting in front of a VDU are ever going to get "proof"

I dont know the Statue of liberty is real, yeah ive seen photos and vids, but they can be faked. Yeah there is multiple witness testimony but ppl lie.

I could travel to New York and climb the thing, but again if i was really deeply opposed to it being real, i could always say ahh the universe is a holographic matrix, its still not real, just a sensory artifact that looks smells and feels real.

And i see this in ufology all the time

People who have decided "its not real" "its something else". And for these people there will never be any evidence or proof to the contary, they will always find a way to validate their pre conceived notion.

They typically ask for "best examples" and then set about trying to poke holes in the case, a single hole being all they need to claim "its fake"

When they cant do that, they cherry pick data, massage it and create holes where none exist."


I'd like to add that so far I've seen neither evidence nor minimally adequate reasoning in this forum to support the unargued premise of some skeptibunkers here, well-summarized by Mike in the post I've quoted above:

"ahh the universe is a holographic matrix, its still not real, just a sensory artifact that looks smells and feels real."

 

[marduk]

I'm no longer interested in proof.

I'm interested in forming a coherent and rational theory that hopefully can be used as a predictive model or at least one to throw the data against to see if it fits.

 

[Burnt State]

People who have decided "its not real" "its something else". And for these people there will never be any evidence or proof to the contary, they will always find a way to validate their pre conceived notion.

They typically ask for "best examples" and then set about trying to poke holes in the case, a single hole being all they need to claim "its fake"

When they cant do that, they cherry pick data, massage it and create holes where none exist."

I'd like to add that so far I've seen neither evidence nor minimally adequate reasoning in this forum to support the unargued premise of some skeptibunkers here, well-summarized by Mike in the post I've quoted above

Actually, if anything we are missing a healthy dose of skeptical voices here on the forum, as the balance of what is discussed ranges from belief spaces that promote some of the most outlandish of UFO narratives to speculation for the reasoning behind alien abduction and everything inbetween. Might as well go get postcards from the coast of Turkey of real live aliens and break out the Derril Sims' implant conference table of curiosities while we're at it.

Rarely do the masses question these spaces, with very little hole-poking, let alone any outright debunking for the sake of debunking. I don't think that voice would be tolerated here for more than two posts. Yet, when we ask ourselves who does more damage to the field of Ufology the hoaxer or the debunker, I think that it's reasonable to acknowledge that it's the hoaxer that does us in. The debunker merely provides overtly critical disbelief. That's a very necessary voice given the subject matter as that's who actually polices ufology. Rarely do you see ufology police itself, despite the Paracast's claims otherwise (yes, call me heretic). As Chris O'Brien has confirmed, having us ask the critical questions is the best way we can get at the meat of the matter.

But, if we are going to talk acceptingly of what is often framed as the most important discussion of discovery the human race can have; then, I think it really should be plucked to its depths. Good cases should stand freely on their own, even after being picked to shreds. If we don't then the consequences are exceptional: gaining respect in the public's eye will never manifest if the tinfoil hat brigade prevails and that includes Greer, Hellyer, Meier, Romanek and Zeta Talk. The deeper consequences of social crimes such as the proliferation of suicide cults, cult belief systems and the steering of victims of actual crimes and children onto the AAP hypnotist's couch is something that lives and breathes within ufology. Who will police those voices?

So, if we're going to talk critically about the holy grail of AAP which is secondary witnesses and/or abductions of more than one person; then, those cases i.e. Cahill, Allagash, Barney & Betty, Andreasson, the Salters, the Stanford Kentucky incident, Pascagoula, Travis Walton etc. should have a mountain of verifiable evidence for each to stand on. Without that we're just whistling Dixie and irresponsibly accepting a phenomenon that props up illegitimate pursuits of hypnotic regression, the delaying of post-traumatic survivors getting proper help and supporting ideologies that can have much more nefarious consequences as seen in the Heaven's Gate and Order of the Solar Temple cults.

The abduction event does remind us of occult ritual (Vallée); inevitably we start talking demons (Keel) and then we reflect on being someone else's property (Fort). That's serious talk, and if it's not just a hobby or fun as many remind us, then we should stand for very thorough skeptical thinking, and endless hole poking. Bring on the debunker, I say, and use that mode of thinking to establish what is real as opposed to just a belief. Beliefs, without facts, can be very dangerous spaces.

 

[Rizla]

I agree with Burt State. Thanks for the Pascagoula tapes, #39 is the really interesting one. It remains one of the most bizarre AAP's on record, especially since there was no hypnosis initially; there was that secretly recorded police tape that seems to show two genuinely perplexed, angry, and frightened multiple witnesses. Also, there were no witnesses to anything at a nearby installation of some kind nearby (can't remember, an observation tower of some kind). It belongs, as BS implies above, in a different category than the Hopkins/Jacobs cases, which I think are indeed worthy of some heavy skepticism, no matter what one believes about the ETH, simply due to the firestorm over Rainey's expose and the telephone tapes between Jacobs and That Woman who Cannot Be Named on This Board, whose pertinent questions on the AAP under hypnosis have yet to receive a satisfactory answer from the Field at large, except hemming and hawing, self righteous posturing, and, at worst, not outright contempt.

The contrast between the hypnosis tapes I've heard and the Pascagoula thing are stunning. Still haven't listened to the later Pascagoula hypnosis...

Pascagoula still leaves me scratching my head. Why did these claw aliens never appear again? These men do not seem to be lying on these police tapes...

 

[Burnt State]

@Rizla yeah the two cases that the community has not dealt well with are in fact both related to the two most prominent of AAP researchers. You mentioned the Jacobs/Woods incident which literally fractured the community, and caused many a thread shutdown. The second one is the Torquemada Affair concerning Hopkins and the Cortile case which dragged Jerry Clark into defending Hopkins and the right not to pursue a proper police investigation over the supposed CIA kidnapping & attempted murder of Cortile in order to protect the diplomat that had supposedly witnessed her abduction - talk about a surreal turn of events! But in this field it seems that loyalties and allegiances often outweigh actual crimes and truth. I do think that there is a poison deep in the well of AAP that will not get drawn out until hypnotism stops and a whole new approach towards AAP is taken.

 

[Constance]

Actually, if anything we are missing a healthy dose of skeptical voices here on the forum . . . .

Just adding my own skeptical voice concerning what I see as the absence of evidence or even minimally adequate reasoning here to support the unargued premise of some skeptibunkers as summarized by Mike in the post I was quoting (snipped in your quotation of it above):

"ahh the universe is a holographic matrix, its still not real, just a sensory artifact that looks smells and feels real."

As Mike noted, the above seems to be the argument of last resort offered up as reason to reject the entire body of ufo history, research, and analysis (65 years of it) and the consequent ETI hypothesis adopted by a wide range of military, scientific, and historical researchers (insiders as well as outsiders). As you yourself concluded your last post, Burnt: "Beliefs, without facts, can be very dangerous spaces." What, I've been wondering, are the facts that support this 'holographic matrix' theory and the wild speculations it has fed?

 

[Jeff Davis]

I agree with Burt State. Thanks for the Pascagoula tapes, #39 is the really interesting one. It remains one of the most bizarre AAP's on record, especially since there was no hypnosis initially; there was that secretly recorded police tape that seems to show two genuinely perplexed, angry, and frightened multiple witnesses. Also, there were no witnesses to anything at a nearby installation of some kind nearby (can't remember, an observation tower of some kind). It belongs, as BS implies above, in a different category than the Hopkins/Jacobs cases, which I think are indeed worthy of some heavy skepticism, no matter what one believes about the ETH, simply due to the firestorm over Rainey's expose and the telephone tapes between Jacobs and That Woman who Cannot Be Named on This Board, whose pertinent questions on the AAP under hypnosis have yet to receive a satisfactory answer from the Field at large, except hemming and hawing, self righteous posturing, and, at worst, not outright contempt.

The contrast between the hypnosis tapes I've heard and the Pascagoula thing are stunning. Still haven't listened to the later Pascagoula hypnosis...

Pascagoula still leaves me scratching my head. Why did these claw aliens never appear again? These men do not seem to be lying on these police tapes...

edit: Rizla!
I forgot to ask the question that initially inspired this post. That EW thing is fascinating. What do you think there?


I just wanted to chime in and state outright that BurntState has indeed capped it, in terms of a legitimate balance point in this whole process of phenomenal considerations. With respect, and I do mean just that, to his implied notions of a more so skeptically balanced proceeding here, in consideration for what is an appeal to the truth minus the self important paranormal popular voicing's contextually centric ringings. I can go with that as all relevant intelligent perspective is valuable input to the root cause in pursuit of the truth.

I finally caught up to you here, and where you are coming from, I think. You're kind of throwing the skeptical devil's advocate out there (sorry demons!) for the sake of maintaining focus or aim.

I kept more or less wondering to myself, "has this guy had a religious experience of the deepest and darkest skeptical nature possible?" Knowing that you have such a love for the encounter reports (and audio documents!) that do in fact support alien abduction, it was one BIG wtf.

I get it. The bottom line is that we simply do not know what the phenomena consists of apart from human experience itself. Even that is ultimately doomed to a toss up between some hypothetical mass hysteria fueled lucid dream state, and the ever popular human fallible perception model, which as we all know is a skeptical favorite to be certain.

My bet is that the phenomenon represents one of a psychically facilitative nature, yet to be discovered, or discussed one, via the contemporary patriarchs. Not one that includes a mandate for psychical aberrancies, not at the core of the phenomenon at least.

 

[Jeff Davis]

Just adding my own skeptical voice concerning what I see as the absence of evidence or even minimally adequate reasoning here to support the unargued premise of some skeptibunkers as summarized by Mike in the post I was quoting (snipped in your quotation of it above):





As Mike noted, the above seems to be the argument of last resort offered up as reason to reject the entire body of ufo history, research, and analysis (65 years of it) and the consequent ETI hypothesis adopted by a wide range of military, scientific, and historical researchers (insiders as well as outsiders). As you yourself concluded your last post, Burnt: "Beliefs, without facts, can be very dangerous spaces." What, I've been wondering, are the facts that support this 'holographic matrix' theory and the wild speculations it has fed?

Which one? The one where we create the matrix to fix our past in the future? And what would the notion be used as a resort from exactly? Can you cite an example of a dangerous belief sans facts? Very interesting.

 

[Jeff Davis]

its an interesting concept AI of the future, or futuristic AI to us, but it just makes complete sense to me, to send clever probes out to explore the universe, im sure humans will do it more and more, with more and more sophistication, but self-aware AI, as in the human sense, is along way of in the future for mankind, if ever, unless we capture it in the mean time.

anyway why would we want to corrupt the perfect technology with human trait's, an AI with free will, free of constraint, would be a monster, and a prisoner/slave under constraint..

Does this seem like a valid description of just such a probe? Maybe our friend nameless will know of a suitable prototypical experimental radio controlled flying butt plug of a device as a identity match for this which I ran across earlier today, 'Glowing vertical cylinder' reported over Arizona - National ufo | Examiner.com

 

[Heidi Lemmer]

How do we dismiss the culmination of data? Go wide when you think about that question.

 

[Burnt State]

edit: Rizla!
I forgot to ask the question that initially inspired this post. That EW thing is fascinating. What do you think there?

I just wanted to chime in and state outright that BurntState has indeed capped it, in terms of a legitimate balance point in this whole process of phenomenal considerations. With respect, and I do mean just that, to his implied notions of a more so skeptically balanced proceeding here, in consideration for what is an appeal to the truth minus the self important paranormal popular voicing's contextually centric ringings. I can go with that as all relevant intelligent perspective is valuable input to the root cause in pursuit of the truth.

I finally caught up to you here, and where you are coming from, I think. You're kind of throwing the skeptical devil's advocate out there (sorry demons!) for the sake of maintaining focus or aim.

I kept more or less wondering to myself, "has this guy had a religious experience of the deepest and darkest skeptical nature possible?" Knowing that you have such a love for the encounter reports (and audio documents!) that do in fact support alien abduction, it was one BIG wtf.

I get it. The bottom line is that we simply do not know what the phenomena consists of apart from human experience itself. Even that is ultimately doomed to a toss up between some hypothetical mass hysteria fueled lucid dream state, and the ever popular human fallible perception model, which as we all know is a skeptical favorite to be certain.

My bet is that the phenomenon represents one of a psychically facilitative nature, yet to be discovered, or discussed one, via the contemporary patriarchs. Not one that includes a mandate for psychical aberrancies, not at the core of the phenomenon at least.

Thanks for that, Jeff. I do have a passion for the subject matter and its history. The forum has played a critical role in making me take an increasingly more critical position on incredible claims. Because Truzzi was right - they do require an extraordinary set of proofs. Speculation is just writing science fiction.

There is a absolutely nothing more exciting IMO than contact with alien life forms. We've batted it around for a long time in the literature and in the community response. If you read through the forum across the years, you can't help but become not just disenchanted, but just plain doubtful about the whole damn thing.. It's not a simple problem that has one explanation; it seems to be beyond our understanding, our language and even our imagination. It's also messing with a lot of people in society in serious ways that includes death. It really just does not get the proper mass critical discussion that that the subject matter merits.

As far as what evidence do we currently have of alien contact and abduction it would not surprise me to find out that all but a handful of stories might involve anything remotely like an experience of alien life forms. And as we've discussed, these experiences are always collaborative events involving our own confused consciousness that is suddenly trying to process an impossible series of events, such as: being brought on board an alien ship by strange creatures to get probed and told the Jesus loves you, you're special & we'll be back one day. That's gotta be a head wrench, even cases where you don't get probed. I can't even begin to describe what that's all supposed to mean, especially if true.

Thanks for the good laugh on my misdiagnosed debunker conversion.

 

[Constance]

Which one? The one where we create the matrix to fix our past in the future?

I haven't come across that hypothesis yet. Can you link me to it? Or is it perhaps presented in a scifi film I haven't seen?

And what would the notion be used as a resort from exactly?

It looks like a resort from trusting the considerable bases for the commonality of human experience, of the ufo phenomenon in the instant case and, it follows, of other things repeatedly and multiply described, physically measured, and reasoned about by humans. It's essentially a distrust of the possible validity of human perception itself, a radical epistemological crisis. In your own words:

The bottom line is that we simply do not know what the phenomena consists of apart from human experience itself. Even that is ultimately doomed to a toss up between some hypothetical mass hysteria fueled lucid dream state, and the ever popular human fallible perception model, which as we all know is a skeptical favorite to be certain.

 

[Burnt State]

How do we dismiss the culmination of data? Go wide when you think about that question.

You don't. What you do is concentrate on what can be categorized as reliable data and you look for and interpret patterns you discover across interdisciplinary fields of study including history. Although some patterns we have yet to discover. But that's what makes Clark and Vallée very important to me as their searches through the history of the printed word appear to verify some type of continuity to this unique human experience.

Defining best cases to legitimize the study & and diminish ridicule is part of any forward momentum. If anything, the incredible amount of similar claims i.e. greys and implants should make us suspicious, often for various reasons. It's about being critical not dismissive.

 

[Rizla]

I like keeping things civilized and away from the ad hominem crap that has ruined so many boards. Jeff, great posts. Constance, I think the 3 1/2 -4D UFO theories, versus the nuts and bolts ETH theories, are an intellectual throwing up of hands, which some may see as a cop-out, but I don't. I think they're the result of looking at a body of evidence, a lot of it pretty solid, that doesn't make much sense in the way we (human, all too human) imagine that an ETH contact would waste enormous resources to use in playing with an alien (to them) human species. Mein Gott, if we ever needed superior alien help or technology (Fukushima, anyone?), we need it now, and not via games played with oddball witnesses and sado-masochistic implant inspections. Jeff: I'd love to give you my opinions on the EW thing, but the PCast hosts have stated many times that such discussion is not to be tolerated around here, for whatever reasons. I tend to like Gene and Chris personally, though disagree with a lot of their decisions regarding guests, topics worthy of discussion, and so on. I respectfully disagree with their decision to keep EW as a non-issue. I want to stick around because there's a group of die-hard enthusiasts here that I rather enjoy, so if you want to talk EW, shoot me a PM. I transcribed several hours of that crap for Jim Moseley, and we discussed it for many hours. Thanks and again, great thinking and dialogue going on above without the usual ad hominem mudslinging. Lack of mudslinging is what brought me here in the first place. My best to all of the above posters for trying to wrestle with complicated crazy subjects to find something "shockingly close to the truth".