Banned From The UFO Collective Google Group

[Rizla]

p/s BS: "Critical not dismissive". Well put. A good slogan for Ufology going forward, such as the Field is, these days. Perhaps our era is "Post-Dream Team"? Or maybe, moving beyond the need for "Dream Teams" and getting more into self-reliant intelligent analysis of the evidence, good and bad and bogus, no matter where it may lead? We're well beyond the stage of proving hypotheses... I think we're really looking at what "evidence" is actually worth anything, which is an honest and honorable scientific pursuit. It's almost a return to the 19th century educated amateurs, or something. Anyhow, I dig the above debate very much. Rizla out (for now)...

 

[Heidi Lemmer]

Found this article:
http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc7.htm

At the start of article there's a good summary of what trauma can be inflicted on a patient by denying their abduction experience and attempting to mold their experience in our modern day/acceptable profiles.

 

[mike]

Have you studied Keel? You seem exceptionally quick to dismiss someone that is touted by many as being the most brilliant researcher this field has ever seen. If not Mike, it would be difficult to take this further intelligently. The Bible is not a history text book, however, there are virtually no religions that do not include natural spiritual nemesis's that overpower and contain mankind against their will. This is a fact.

I know via previous posts that you are very anti religion, especially Christianity.

I am surprised that you would refer to the Bible as "fairy tales" however. That seems like an emotional and dismissive summation rather than an unbiased perspective. Would you honestly read that to some child at bedtime as a "fairy tale"? Folklore, and cross cultural studies represent FAR more than just fairy tales Mike. Alien behavior is another thing that seems to be ignored in the fear drenched, and over reactive crowds on both sides of the "oh my God it's Demons!" mentality.

BTW, Demons would not mean that UFO machinery needs to be actual Demons disguising themselves. Why couldn't it just be the nature of aliens that are in them?

The problem here is one of extreme superstition as long as you equate Demon's with God/Good - Devil/Evil religiousness.

I'm not sure i can be any clearer Jeff,

Biblical demons, aka the minions of satan, a fallen angel cast down by what'is deity to the pits of hell, is about as useful a label as chariots of the gods is to an antigravity craft created offplanet by technology a thousand years in advance of our own.

The label says more about our ignorance, than it does describe the reality.

Ive long held that contact wont be possible until we have some parity, some common lexicon with which to relate.

Just as you could fly into one of the melanesian islands and have diner with the locals, but you just know they dont get it

Cargo cult - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Labels, the lexicon , the jargon is important imo

When our technological sophistication allows us to label what we see with accuracy, then we will have parity.

Anything less and it doesnt work

 

[mike]

Back to abductions and motivations

We hear the term motherships often enough in the narrative.

And again it needs restating if the galaxy/universe is teeming with life as it is on earth, and if some of it is sentient and technologically capable as it is on earth, then when we speak abot ET, Its a plural scenario. We are more likely to be talking about many multiples of ET societys, and population sizes that make our single planetary population look tiny in comparrison

Populations that have chosen to live on "motherships" will be prone to population/genetic bottlenecks

A population bottleneck is a sharp reduction in size of a population due to environmental random events (such as earthquakes, floods, fires, or droughts) or human activities. Such events are able to reduce the variation in the gene pool of a population drastically

A simple fix would be to simply harvest genetic materiel from any compatable species they find and use it to inject vigour into those populations.

Hardy biological populations like ours might be viewed much as we do Old growth forests

An old-growth forest (also termed primary forest, virgin forest, primeval forest, late seral forest, or in Britain, ancient woodland) is a forest that has attained great age without significant disturbance and thereby exhibits unique ecological features and might be classified as a climax community.[1] Old-growth features include diverse tree-related structures that provide diverse wildlife habitat that increases the bio-diversity of the forested ecosystem

 

[Burnt State]

Re: Dr. Lima's article on the treatment of abductees

This reads like an apology for Hopkins and hypnosis. It is not what I would describe as an unbiased clinician's response. Dr. Lima, who graduated from the Albert Einstein school of medicine, and her Truth Reports do not inspire the kind of critical support patients need. The paper itself does not read like an independent research paper studying patients. In fact it actually quotes Hopkins as a legitimate source for how to categorize abductees. Far from an unbiased approach this paper is just making arguments for hypnosis and reads like a response to criticisms of Hopkins and Jacobs. That makes it hard to move forward when this is the rhetoric of the past. How about an actual real life patient study that starts with facts instead of beliefs?

Edit: further research links her to Alex Jones, the Church of Scientology, remote viewing of UFO ships and claims that O'Bama's healthcare plan will kill people. Sounds pretty fringy to me, and not good fringe, more like tinfoil fringe. If this is ufoevidence's approach to science then they need to better vet what they post.

 

[Rizla]

Burnt State: Regarding the "Linda Cortile" stuff, Mr. Clark will tell people to go to the International UFO Reporter archives. He does the same thing when he critiques the hell out of Moseley. Clark is making a mistake to send anyone into IUR back issues -- I've perused them; there's dynamite there. I think there's a damned good reason that would-be Serious Ufologists, like professional academics and the mob, prefer to let such sticky issues go away, forgotten. And Mr. Perez de Cuellar's testimony remains either sealed or (more likely) non-existant, not to mention that even a cursory glance at Carol Rainey's videos makes one just a little dubious on "Cortile" as an expert witness, ready for her day in court. That whole mess over the real investigation of Cortile is totally exposed on a net link which I posted not too long ago, not hard to find, as in Google "cortile" and "a critique of bud hopkins" together, you'll find it at the top of the page... This critique, written by people who were bashed to hell by the leading lights of IUR, is more than twenty years old, but the facts remain, as difficult to obliterate as a roman statue, indisputable evidence of less-than-meets-the-eye. I mean, read the damned thing... if you have a short attention span, scroll down to "Initial Problems with the Case", then check out "The Reaction of Ufology's Leadership":

A Critique of Budd Hopkins' Case of the UFO Abduction of Linda Napolitano

The fact that the Field in general would rather pretend this never happened doesn't really look good, does it? Ignoring things doesn't make them go away; there will always be irritating people who remember things, and bookmark/cache them. And I know for a fact I'm not the only one who spent many hours listening to the Jacobs/EW tapes, which pretty much spell out the end game for anyone involved in the amateur hypnosis fiasco. No matter how much they are censored or willfully ignored, some of us remember these events and will never take the work of Hopkins and Jacobs seriously ever again. Game over, thank God!

 

[Heidi Lemmer]

I

Re: Dr. Lima's article on the treatment of abductees

This reads like an apology for Hopkins and hypnosis. It is not what I would describe as an unbiased clinician's response. Dr. Lima, who graduated from the Albert Einstein school of medicine, and her Truth Reports do not inspire the kind of critical support patients need. The paper itself does not read like an independent research paper studying patients. In fact it actually quotes Hopkins as a legitimate source for how to categorize abductees. Far from an unbiased approach this paper is just making arguments for hypnosis and reads like a response to criticisms of Hopkins and Jacobs. That makes it hard to move forward when this is the rhetoric of the past. How about an actual real life patient study that starts with facts instead of beliefs?

Edit: further research links her to Alex Jones, the Church of Scientology, remote viewing of UFO ships and claims that O'Bama's healthcare plan will kill people. Sounds pretty fringy to me, and not good fringe, more like tinfoil fringe. If this is ufoevidence's approach to science then they need to better vet what they post.

agree Burnt, we need clinical studies done. We don't have them. We're left with people who have limited to no background looking at this. But it doesn't take rocket science to see similarities in experiences, wide ranging reports and to take care on not trying to fit the experience in a pre-molded box as your so inclined to do. Sexual abuse does not make abduction but abduction does make sexual abuse. This statement completely challenges the current modern make up of experts. A challenge so profound that most won't deal with it. It may seem logical to you that if abducted , go see a doctor....but if that had happened to me it would be the last place I'd go, unless I was physically hurt. In my opinion there is no safe place in modern treatment to go. Hence, fringe. I don't like fringe either. But I'm not willing to simply throw out collections of work because of problematic experiences with a few patients. If Hopkins had really been destructive, scores of clients would have emerged to tell their tale. That was not the case. In case it's forgotten, Hopkins had an active group of doctors attending his hypnosis sessions to observe quality and validity to the experience. So no, I'm not tossing all those countless interviews out the door because an ex-wife decides to connect his work to Jacobs work and Jacob's public embarrasment. We have what we have as a starting point, it's up to us to move it forward. Maybe if enough compelling evidence starts to surface science will grab it up and dissect it. But it's up to us to gather, dissect, compare, etc.

 

[Jeff Davis]

I'm not sure i can be any clearer Jeff,

Biblical demons, aka the minions of satan, a fallen angel cast down by what'is deity to the pits of hell, is about as useful a label as chariots of the gods is to an antigravity craft created offplanet by technology a thousand years in advance of our own.

The label says more about our ignorance, than it does describe the reality.

Ive long held that contact wont be possible until we have some parity, some common lexicon with which to relate.

Just as you could fly into one of the melanesian islands and have diner with the locals, but you just know they dont get it

Cargo cult - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Labels, the lexicon , the jargon is important imo

When our technological sophistication allows us to label what we see with accuracy, then we will have parity.

Anything less and it doesnt work

Substitute "contextual identity" for parity, and you'll find yourself accurately relevant to typified paranormal observations, every time. As soon as we think we know, it's certain we don't.

 

[Jeff Davis]

I

agree Burnt, we need clinical studies done. We don't have them. We're left with people who have limited to no background looking at this. But it doesn't take rocket science to see similarities in experiences, wide ranging reports and to take care on not trying to fit the experience in a pre-molded box as your so inclined to do. Sexual abuse does not make abduction but abduction does make sexual abuse. This statement completely challenges the current modern make up of experts. A challenge so profound that most won't deal with it. It may seem logical to you that if abducted , go see a doctor....but if that had happened to me it would be the last place I'd go, unless I was physically hurt. In my opinion there is no safe place in modern treatment to go. Hence, fringe. I don't like fringe either. But I'm not willing to simply throw out collections of work because of problematic experiences with a few patients. If Hopkins had really been destructive, scores of clients would have emerged to tell their tale. That was not the case. In case it's forgotten, Hopkins had an active group of doctors attending his hypnosis sessions to observe quality and validity to the experience. So no, I'm not tossing all those countless interviews out the door because an ex-wife decides to connect his work to Jacobs work and Jacob's public embarrasment. We have what we have as a starting point, it's up to us to move it forward. Maybe if enough compelling evidence starts to surface science will grab it up and dissect it. But it's up to us to gather, dissect, compare, etc.

I am very glad to see the cross section of both fascination and concern with respect to this phenomenon. I wrote this small piece a few years ago in a post whose link I include just to reference the fact.

The Abduction Phenomenon | UFOmania


The number one problem IMO with the abduction phenomenon is the abductees themselves, as well as those that encourage their experiences being turned into what basically amounts to a cult or religion.

That's because those that endure the experience, as well as those who falsely document and further tout what has become "The Abduction Phenomenon", assume that because these various abduction stories are similar one to another, that they are all undergoing the same irrefutable alien abduction process. Somehow in their minds this validates and authenticates the experience as being real with respect for supposed alien intervention.

These same people also seem to have a tremendously difficult time admitting that they themselves are within the midst of a UNKNOWN and completely UNDEFINED phenomenon.

When is the last time that ANYONE claiming to be abducted by aliens beyond their control, has submitted themselves for ongoing treatment and care within a legitimate professional medical facility for such an abhorrent affair?

Are there figures representing those that have committed themselves for just such a reason? What are the results of these affairs?

What does "unknown" and "undefined" really mean? In the abductee's mind it seems to mean that: "we know what's going on, but you don't". This is a delusion plain and simple and is absolutely no different than someone believing they're the REAL Jesus Christ and no one can tell them differently.

If they (the abductees) are unable to factually present clear evidence to the effect that the phenomenon that they are experiencing is precisely what they claim it to be, then they themselves don't honestly have the least bit better, or a more so accurately determined understanding of the phenomenon, than the unbiased researcher investigating the matter does. Not one bit.

This would be a most healthy place to start, Abductee: "There is something very real and extremely frightening happening to me. If my understanding is correct, I am being kidnapped against my will. If that's not bad enough, I am being made to participate in some kind of clandestine program that may in fact be controlled and ran by beings from another world. I am not able to prove as much, but this is what my brain is conveying to me in so many details. Can you help me as I am truly afraid that I am losing my mind, or worse, possibly that my mind has been the subject of extreme conditioning or brainwashing. This situation may in fact present a very real security issue for my country, or a health threat to myself or to others."

IMO, this is an appropriate diagnostic prone context for such an extremely important mass psychological issue. It would also mean that the phenomenon could start getting the type of support and meaningful research that is born out of legitimate professional help, and not the run of the mill professional blogger calling themselves the latest flavor of the day "paranormal researcher/investigator".

The Abduction Phenomenon is VERY real. The fact that we DO NOT KNOW whether there is an undeniable external component contained within the Abduction Phenomenon or not, is also very real. More importantly, we do not know WHO such an abductor might be or represent apart from the experiential interpretation of the event.

We REALLY need to stop turning this serious matter into a new dime store paranormal thriller every time it rears it's ultra addled "alien" head. People are suffering. Isn't it time that we focused on easing that all too real suffering via truly qualified individuals instead of those merely looking to profit monetarily and garner attention for their OWN inept research?

When there are no more blind leading the blind, this cannot be a bad thing. Can we PLEASE stop allowing Abductees to analyze and diagnose themselves in an effort to fuel the latest new book releases? How about if we all start treating this matter with the urgency and deliberate professional treatment that it truly deserves?

[end]

a couple years later: My views remain somewhat the same, but honestly, there is a great deal more width of perspective that I have since come to grow into concerning this amazing and sadly maligned phenomenon . I feel a greater debt than ever to some of those just seeking peace at the core of this truly bizarre phenomenon.

 

[mike]

You have to start somewhere, at the end of the day the modern abduction narrative does include descriptions of what most people consider alien beings and craft.

With no definative proof either way it must then be at least high on the list of possibilitys.

Take this example

You come home from work and find your home has been burgled. You didnt see who did it

Whats the most likely explanation from the list below

Interdimensional theives
Elves
spirits
demons
delusion born of the collective unconcious
A person/s from somewhere else in your city

Expand this , the city is the galaxy, your home the earth.

Someone else, from somewhere else is still the easiest answer, it doesnt require a paranormal or supernatural mechanism.
It needs only a technological and biological mechansism, just like we see here on earth.

I'm not saying it has the be the answer, but of all the potential answers its the path of least complication.

If your Cliff Richard CD collection goes missing, its not likely to be spirits or demons or ultradimensionals thats responsible.

The obvious answer is 100 percent consistant with the current reality and is a logical extension of the known model

 

[Heidi Lemmer]

In a sense, we have a structure in place already, MUFON. They have incorporated most of the professionals in the field required to study abductions. Many abductions come with stories of sightings , strange activity, loss of time, physical marks, animals behaving strangly, etc. So depending on a case many different fields might be needed to investigate the abduction. One glaring problem with MUFON is that they aren't sharing that data.

 

[Jeff Davis]

In a sense, we have a structure in place already, MUFON. They have incorporated most of the professionals in the field required to study abductions. Many abductions come with stories of sightings , strange activity, loss of time, physical marks, animals behaving strangly, etc. So depending on a case many different fields might be needed to investigate the abduction. One glaring problem with MUFON is that they aren't sharing that data.

I just hate that kind of informational exclusivity! Forgive me, but I don't like that one bit. MUFON does some real good, but I'm thinking it's strictly on a person to person basis. The files should be available to all members at minimum. Just not cool IMO.

 

[Heidi Lemmer]

I just hate that kind of informational exclusivity! Forgive me, but I don't like that one bit. MUFON does some real good, but I'm thinking it's strictly on a person to person basis. The files should be available to all members at minimum. Just not cool IMO.

Absolutely agree, names can be redacted in order to share statistics, regions, variations in abduction types. We either find a way to push at a group we have little power over , duplicate an equal or hope that bonafide professionals step forward. Until then....read on whats already out there, see about making sense of any of it and let's all pay attention to how it develops.

 

[Burnt State]

In case it's forgotten, Hopkins had an active group of doctors attending his hypnosis sessions to observe quality and validity to the experience. So no, I'm not tossing all those countless interviews out the door because an ex-wife decides to connect his work to Jacobs work and Jacob's public embarrasment. We have what we have as a starting point, it's up to us to move it forward. Maybe if enough compelling evidence starts to surface science will grab it up and dissect it. But it's up to us to gather, dissect, compare, etc.

Well this does bring us a little closer to the crux of the matter and some questions still keft unanswered on this thread with regards to AAP. To bring it back a little closer to the purpose of this thread, regarding the banning from groups, I think there are two hearts at the core of AAP that needs a little closer examination that many are reluctant to explore. There's a lot if enforced silence around these historical flashpoints that actually need resolution,

There are core cases that I think are very worth pursuing and examining that might shed some kind of light on possible interactions between humans and life forms that are alien to our global society. But there is another deceptive heart to AAP that has been built up around a mythological and archetypal human experience. It has been dressed with implants and coaxed into construction via hypnosis. At this core stands the Linda Cortile, case and you don't need to wade through all the many threads about it here or even entertain Hopkins' ex-partner's criticisms; the article posted by Rizla above says most of what needs to be said about this narrative if you didn't follow it's unravelling years ago.

Exploring the high drama and conflict within the Ufological community is enough to tell you that something is rotten in the state of Denmark. Now, I really admire Jerome Clark and his contributions as the historian of the subject matter, but his defense of his friend, over the defense of truth, is a real low point for how his role has played out. Because what it looks like is that the whole community has been steered down a road of a hoax on the highest order. But then, as Rizla also pointed out, there's a lot of short term memory in ufology.

Getting back to the numerous cases and clients: there's reasons why people don't complain - someone who validates your experience, whether it's real or not, makes no never mind. It's validation people seek. Cases Hopkins could not validate went to Mack who was a lot more critical of AAP as an external, physical event and prompted more of a visionary, internal experience that manifested as contactee evangelism. This is seen in cases like Cahill and Andreasson that include channeling, Jesus, God as the one and the alien as that one. If there were any good cases from the hypnosis ranks of AAP they've been completely muddled by the mess made by two of the three leading figures in AAP. Getting close to such cases has a very destabilizing effect i.e. Fowler and Andreasson.

Unanswered Question: why are there these three great discrepancies between Mack, Hopkins and Jacobs? Is it more about the investigator who frames the discussion or is one of them more accurate than the other?

Unanswered Question: is the experience primarily an internal one or do we have actual authentic proof, with a strong chain of evidence, untampered with by hypnosis that can validate the idea of AAP as an external phenomenon?

What's quite tricky about validating AAP is how tainted the field and the methodologies are. Most of your hardcore academics dismiss hypnosis entirely and the manner in which confirmation bias may play itself out, as seen in the very questionable results we see both with E.W. and Cortile.

 

[marduk]

And all this verification gets exactly where?

The same place we've been for 60 years,that's where.

 

[Burnt State]

If I want to climb a mountain I've never climbed before I'm interested in getting on the most accurate & safest route, even if I have to double back upon my misdirections time and time again. I may not know where I'm going, but I'm hoping to learn more and more about how to navigate the terrain with each better step forward. It doesn't serve me to use inaccurate tools or to stumble down dead end paths that I've been down before. That's why we've been spinning wheels for 60 years plus.

 

[marduk]

Sure.

So go to the source, collect real data, and use it to invalidate or invalidate your theory.

Endless posturing and navel gazing about ancient evidence gets us nowhere.

Endless "prove it to me" gets us nowhere.

 

[marduk]

Sorry I'm in a mood, being a dick.

Ignore me.

 

[Burnt State]

The Abduction Phenomenon is VERY real. The fact that we DO NOT KNOW whether there is an undeniable external component contained within the Abduction Phenomenon or not, is also very real. More importantly, we do not know WHO such an abductor might be or represent apart from the experiential interpretation of the event.

We REALLY need to stop turning this serious matter into a new dime store paranormal thriller every time it rears it's ultra addled "alien" head. People are suffering. Isn't it time that we focused on easing that all too real suffering via truly qualified individuals instead of those merely looking to profit monetarily and garner attention for their OWN inept research?

When there are no more blind leading the blind, this cannot be a bad thing. Can we PLEASE stop allowing Abductees to analyze and diagnose themselves in an effort to fuel the latest new book releases? How about if we all start treating this matter with the urgency and deliberate professional treatment that it truly deserves?

[end]

a couple years later: My views remain somewhat the same, but honestly, there is a great deal more width of perspective that I have since come to grow into concerning this amazing and sadly maligned phenomenon . I feel a greater debt than ever to some of those just seeking peace at the core of this truly bizarre phenomenon.

Really enjoyed this synopis and all the critical issues raised. It's a good summary of the situation. Radical shifts in methodology are needed if it's to move forward instead of the same dead ends you've identified. Working with people in trauma properly needs to be prioritized.

The last Radio Misterioso episode with Nick Redfern talks about AAP quite a bit including a good little chunk on internal vs. external experiences: Radio Misterioso | In-depth conversations on the paranormal alternating with weird music. Live on Sundays 8-10 PM PST @ killradio.org

 

[Burnt State]

Sorry I'm in a mood, being a dick.

Ignore me.

No worries, there are many palpable frustrations that come with this discussion. It's perfectly understandable and expected. Can't talk AAP without things sparking once in a while. It's how it goes.