Banned From The UFO Collective Google Group

[mike]

yep, that's the case report i was quoting Chalker from. Why do you think he posted an update almost a decade after the fact? Why do you think there was no real report properly filed by Auchettl?

His update as far as i can see deals only with the fact that he wasnt happy about the lack of report or co-operation from Auchettl.
I haven seen anything where he says he thinks Cahill is lying

His criticism is directed at PRA, not the case itself

Update (12/6/02) The Cahill case, PRA & openness:
It should be noted that the above "comment" in the 1994 IUR report was prepared on the assumption that the "PRA comprehensive report on the affair" was about to be released. Despite nearly a decade passing, John Auchettl and PRA have not released their report other than a few fragments of information.
As the researcher responsible for passing Kelly Cahill onto PRA in the first place, principally because I am NSW based and the incident occurred in Victoria, I have to say now that that decision was, in hindsight, a mistake.
My comment in my 1994 IUR report: "John Auchettl and PRA, whose investigative thoroughness is to be commended", was based entirely on conversations with Auchettl and discussions with Kelly Cahill at the time (1993-1994), and in retrospect should have been qualified more accurately. While Auchettl & PRA may well have been thorough in their investigation, in reality there has been no way to absolutely verify this, because of their unwillingness to release their report and data on the case. PRA have offered some seemingly unusual and convoluted explanations for this lack of sharing.
I have long encouraged openness and sharing in UFO research (my web site is in part an expression of my position on this matter). My attempts to encourage PRA in this direction, from my perspective, have been very disappointing, and have instead lead me to not to refer cases to John Auchettl and PRA. Unless PRA changes their apparent lack of transparency and openness, researchers and witnesses should carefully consider the wisdom of cooperating with Phenomena Research Australia (PRA).
Regards, Bill

I have never heard him denounce Cahill or the case when ive attended his lectures

Indeed he mentions a third researcher

What follows is the transcript of an interview Kelly gave to my associate Robb Tilley on March 21 of this year.
The details are consistent with those recounted to me on October 4, 1993, in numerous conversations with me since then, with the PRA investigation, and with a manuscript she is writing about her experience.

As to why PRA have refused to release their report, i dont know. But we see it a lot in this genre.

It doesnt imo negate the individual case itself or the AAP in general

 

[Heidi Lemmer]

I don't think that sexual assault and AAP are on the same level at all. I know that sexual assault is a reality in the society i live in and that the stats are absolutely enormous on that topic. It is the most underreported crime going in our society because of the shame and ridicule that has interrupted justice, not too mention the long standing inappropriate manner that the judicial system has dealt with this crime.

However, if in fact AAP is a reality, and people are claiming the equivalent of sexual assault and bodily violation taking place then i would think the first place they need to go to is an actual doctor, to verify that these assaults are taking place, and not a ufological doctor, but a real doctor that can properly treat people who have suffered a terrible traumatic event. Now i don't have stats handy on the subject but i'm guessing that the majority of cases of AAP are talked about well after the event, often years later. Quite often, even in the Derril Sims Paracast interview, we got confirmation of the fact that a lot of people who believe they are victims of AAP have in fact really been sexually assaulted. I think we need to be very careful about this distinction. I think it is entirely irresponsible of "researchers" to persist in helping people with AAP when in fact a real crime may have been committed.

I have incredible sympathy for any person that truly believes that they have been violated. Having worked with young people and adults in this situation many times over the last twenty years i know what this trauma can do to people, especially when the crime is incest. As i've described elsewhere in the forum a fellow colleague once used me as a processing space to work through her sexual assault at the hands of her father. That identification took months of conversation and finally she was convinced that a real therapist was required, especially when she started describing the "stranger" that was in her house that her father was powerless to stop. Of course it was her father all along, but the initial descriptions were of a demonic presence, something almost otherworldly, an impossible thief in the night. So maybe i have bias in this area, but it's not unfamiliar in the AAP literature that there is a high correlation between sexual assault victims and claims of AAP.

So before we traumatize people even further by allowing claims of assault by aliens to go forward, i think it's in everyone's best interest to get at the real criminals here on earth before we go off world. I don't think anyone should ever be ridiculed about their trauma but real help is not a hypnotist, or Derril Sims as hypnotherapist.

I agree whole-heartedly that we need to use caution in both defining the abuse and treating the abuse. I wasn't equating the two abuses but rather the response to the two abuses. And the response is historically the same, deny, replace with alternative, etc.

 

[Burnt State]

I was at one the book launch's for this one

DNA Sample From Abduction Case Raises Big Questions, UFO Casebook Files

But of course since someone has decided to disseminate this case by selling books, i guess its suspect as well

Even though he passed a lie detector test

Well actually i've read about the guy who claims to have swallowed an alien nipple and survived to tell the tale but i'm a little confused about the big deal about the DNA. While the blond hair wrapped around his penis was of a rare type, it was human correct? And even as rare as blond Asians may be i would think that rare, in terms of DNA, means that what, over a million or more have that kind of DNA? His story, along with the other ones that Chalker has cited, as there were repeat events, all describe paralysis as the dominant feature while lying in bed with his wife beside him. To me this is classic sleep paralysis and as to where the hair around his penis came from, only Peter really knows.

To be honest I've only read Chalker's writing on this, and i see no actual alien DNA at work so that returns this particular case to that "after the fact" reported event. He didn't tell his wife till what, 2 weeks after the incident? There sure are a lot of places he could have got that hair from in the meantime. I don't find this one to be particularly convincing because of the poor chain of evidence again. If you woke up coughing your lungs up because you believe you have an alien nipple lodged in your windpipe, and if the hair was burning his genitals, are you telling me you're not in the doctor's office the next day in fear for your life? I would be there that evening praying i'm not going to die from some alien organic matter that is now in my body. There's some parts to Khoury's story that strains credulity, which includes the numerous UFO stories he claims to be a witness of. Once is rare enough, but multiple sightings and abductions are red flags, as are all the cases of lying in bed feeling paralysis and the after the fact retelling of what happened in your sleep. Real alien contact has to be so earth shattering that IMHO you would be more freaked out and in keeping with Hickson and Parker's wildly fearful reportage as described above, though i'm sure different people may react differently.

As far as lie detector's tests go i think that science has proved that if you believe the story you are telling when you tell it you are good to go. It's also about subjective interpretation as to what you do when you lie right, and people who are nervous, even though speaking the truth, will fail the test, hence its inadmissibility.

 

[mike]

Oh i think we can write off Chalker as a hoaxer
I mean look at how his hair has changed

Spooky isnt it

You can tell from the changing hair styles they are both hoaxers, its spooky isnt it

 

[mike]

Your debunking of the Cahill case, seems to be lifted from this page

KELLY CAHILL : THE HOAX IS OVER « eye of the cyclone

The authors conculsions being

And where is Andrew Kelly, supposed husband of Kelly Cahill? As far as I know he has never publicly acknowledged Kelly Cahill’s story.
SO THE BASIC POINT I am making is:

1. The so called organisation that investigated Cahill’s case is merely a name on ‘paper’.
2. There was no investigation – no proof of one.
3. Kelly Cahill’s case is a clever hoax probably in collusion with the so called investigators.

With no proof he alludes to a "supposed" husband, claiming in contradiction with what reports we do have he never acknowledged the story.

But according to bill

Her husband remembered at least the UFO encounter but not the entities and has not acknowledged the missing time.

so we cherry pick the "not acknowledged" bit and create a false statement from it

The organisation is merely a name on paper.....

Yet Chalker refers her to this organisation and has first hand discussions with Auchettl, another false premise its clearly more than a name on paper

"There was no investigation" a statement of fact, based on.......???

But we know Chalker took the initial report, we know she also gave an interview to Robb Tilley. The claim there was NO investigation is patently false.

Even Chalker makes the same point

My comment in my 1994 IUR report: "John Auchettl and PRA, whose investigative thoroughness is to be commended", was based entirely on conversations with Auchettl and discussions with Kelly Cahill at the time (1993-1994), and in retrospect should have been qualified more accurately. While Auchettl & PRA may well have been thorough in their investigation, in reality there has been no way to absolutely verify this, because of their unwillingness to release their report and data on the case. PRA have offered some seemingly unusual and convoluted explanations for this lack of sharing.

That at least is an honest summation of the situation, he doesnt make the claim there was no investigation

His sole premise for deciding its a hoax is that there was no report released.

Its like me deciding to investigate and research the types of ladybugs on one of my rose bushes, but on chosing not to release my report we can conclude there were no ladybugs and no rose bush.

The lack of released report is evidence for one thing and one thing only, that no report was released.

You can infer whatever you like from the fact no report was released, but its not evidence the whole thing was a hoax

His conclusions are pure BS

Its very clear the author has started with a conclusion and then massaged the data to fit that.
Thats not how it works

 

[Burnt State]

Well I sincerely appreciate your strong sense of humor as I know my own skeptical approach does not always solicit good cheer though Chalker appears to have actually aged compared to Cahill's seemingly regression in years - could just be the angle though.

In return here's an absolutely fascinating case featuring a 61 year old abductee claimant from 1979. The link contains some excellent video interview pieces with the man in question. Those familiar with UFO abduction lore know this one as the case where two metal spheres shoot off from the main bizarre looking ship and like robots with claws start attacking the poor man. He is knocked unconscious, is barely functional and crawls home mud stained and disoriented with an incredible story to tell to both wife and doctor.

http://www.ufocasebook.com/taylor1979.html

 

[mike]

Perhaps this will answer the PRA question

kellycahill1
4 years ago
hi there kcdl. The report was not released because the second party took PRA to court and prevented its release legally, because there was too much sensitive information about them in it. This does not explain why PRA did not just release a purely scientific report based on the data collection of ground traces etc. I was given photos and some of the analysis stats, but nothing has ever been made public. Disappointing all round really

kellycahill1 - YouTube

And bugger me her hair has changed yet again

Kelly Cahill here, the lady in the video. I wish i could leave this behind me. Do you know how hard it is to live for 16 years with people questioning your honesty, integrity and sanity? i have met someone now whom I would like to be with. But am certain that as soon as he sees this site and others, he will run like the wind. And who could balme him!! My advice to anyone who goes through an experience like this: keep it to yourself. Don't try to save the world...it doesn't want saving!

I thought she had split with Andrew and this comment confirms it, Is it so odd she would lose some weight, swap the spectacles for contacts and get a new hairdo.

The whole publicity stunt seems as odds with this comment too

 

[mike]

The thing is, none of us sitting in front of a VDU are ever going to get "proof"

I dont know the Statue of liberty is real, yeah ive seen photos and vids, but they can be faked. Yeah there is multiple witness testimony but ppl lie.

I could travel to New York and climb the thing, but again if i was really deeply opposed to it being real, i could always say ahh the universe is a holographic matrix, its still not real, just a sensory artifact that looks smells and feels real.

And i see this in ufology all the time

People who have decided "its not real" "its something else". And for these people there will never be any evidence or proof to the contary, they will always find a way to validate their pre conceived notion.
They typically ask for "best examples" and then set about trying to poke holes in the case, a single hole being all they need to claim "its fake"
When they cant do that, they cherry pick data, massage it and create holes where none exist.

So Kelly has stated the reason PRA didnt publish is because one of the other witness's had a change of heart and decided they didnt want to be associated with a subject that still gets you called crazy.
They took out a court injunction against publication, and having more than my fair share of courthouse experience i can understand why Auchettl would just say bugger it and walk away.

Of course there is no proof that, or any of it happened, just as for me there is no proof lady liberty stands on an island in New York.

But neither is that lack of direct experience proof it didnt and that it doesnt.

The claim "you cant prove it, so that proves im right" is a nonsense

Like the sound of one hand clapping it is what it is nothing more nothing less

Later, after they got home, Kelly experienced menstrual bleeding and became quite ill. She had had her period only the week before. Eventually she entered the hospital with a womb infection. The doctors there said she must have been pregnant; either that, or she had had some kind of gynaecological operation. In fact, she had had neither in recent times. A strange triangular mark was also found on her abdomen along with a scar.

Again no proof, but if this is true, we have a medical professional making an interesting conclusion.

But again for those of us sutting in front of a VDU we will never have proof of this claim, she could post a Doctors report and admissions form, but like Obamas birth certificate it would soon be denounced as fake, photoshopped.

Im not making any absolute claims about this or any case, i'm not going to tell you its true. That would be absurd, how could i know as an absolute if it was.
What i object to is ppl like the link above, making absolute claims its a hoax with no more proof of that absolute claim than their personal opinions presented as absolute facts

To turn the tactic on its head

SO THE BASIC POINT I am making is:

1. The so called organisation that investigated Cahill’s case is merely a name on ‘paper’.
2. There was no investigation – no proof of one.
3. Kelly Cahill’s case is a clever hoax probably in collusion with the so called investigators.

To which i say Prove it, Prove it and Prove it............

 

[nameless]

Seeing as there is no real definitive answer and we can't agree on what we are actually seeing....But why time traveling aliens? Why not time traveling genetically modified humans ?
Do we just choose the story which fits our personal constructed perception of reality? What makes our reality any more real than some one else's ? Better education? More information? A priori probability or a broader imagination to empathize and inhabit different consciousnesses ?

Argument from ignorance (Latin:argumentum ad ignorantiam), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorancestands for "lack of evidence to the contrary"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false (or vice versa). This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there is insufficient investigation and therefore insufficient information to prove the proposition satisfactorily to be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four, (1) true, (2) false, (3) unknown between true or false, and (4) being unknowable (among the first three).[2] In debates, appeals to ignorance are sometimes used to shift the burden of proof.

The fallaciousness of arguments from ignorance does not mean that one can never possess good reasons for thinking that something does not exist, an idea captured by philosopher Bertrand Russell's teapot, a hypothetical china teapot revolving about the sun between Earth and Mars; however this would fall more duly under the arena ofpragmatism[vague], wherein a position must be demonstrated or proven in order to be upheld, and therefore the burden of proof is on the argument's proponent.[citation needed]See also Occam's razor (prefer the explanation with the least assumptions).

 

[trainedobserver]

I've never met anyone who thought they were a victim of SRA, but I have run into folks who suspected that they had been abducted or had at least seen "grey aliens" in their home.

To be honest its not a scenario (stealth invasion) i find to be highly likely, though i dont discount it entirely.

There are a number of scenarios that make more sense to me than invasion

Planned upgrades to the native bioform for example (indigo children)
Intelligence operatives, boots on the ground spys

Or as ive mentioned already using heterosis to add vigour to their own biological population

One of my problems with any invasion proposition is motivation. Unless the alien invaders were themselves human beings, it seems unlikely that any extra-terrestrial species would care about infiltrating human society in any fashion. We would probably be ignored and they'd just take whatever resources they were after.

 

[marduk]

What about Travis Walton?

 

[marduk]

I've never met anyone who thought they were a victim of SRA, but I have run into folks who suspected that they had been abducted or had at least seen "grey aliens" in their home.


One of my problems with any invasion proposition is motivation. Unless the alien invaders were themselves human beings, it seems unlikely that any extra-terrestrial species would care about infiltrating human society in any fashion. We would probably be ignored and they'd just take whatever resources they were after.

I'm thinking that they're not infiltrating society at all.

They're not approaching us at the social level or context. They're approaching individuals.

We are social animals that are evolutionarily successful because of the power of society.

We are at our most vulnerable as individuals.

 

[Jeff Davis]

Again, if you read what I'm posting above here i'm far, far away from saying that this can't be happening. I just happen to think that both the Cahill and the Cortile case are entirely bogus. Bill's report is based entirely on Cahill and Auchettl from what I understand and we only have Cahill and Auchettl's word that these witnesses exist. I've read Bill's report and he does not cite any independent interviews at all. I think it's very telling that after the fact he publishes his own update about the case, demonstrating sincere misgivings about how it went down and the lack of an official report - yet we have a book, a tour and what looks like plastic surgery. I think the lack of independent witness verification is a critical feature in this case. How's that going to hold up in an court of truth? I would think that it needs a little more effort - next time you see Chalker, ask him if he thinks those witnesses actually exist or was it just reported to him and why did he publish that update that seems to cast doubt on the whole thing?

Actually, in this thread you started by bolstering and attributing the phenomena to mental illness or quirks due to Clancy, and I think that is what created the perception that you held the view that this was solely a matter of delusion. If I am wrong about that, I really apologize for misunderstanding you. However I think the jury is still out, and in fact that is the whole point. I have been stating for years now that it is the abductees themselves that are their own worst enemies due to how they themselves choose to "handle" their confounding delima. That does not mean that I don't think something very real is happening apart from mental illness however, which I do not believe is solely to blame. I certainly don't think it's a product of being eccentric either.

I do not think this matter is one that typical investigative facts will shed light on. That's the entire problem with the paranormal. You cannot investigate it like it was a crime. We need to understand exactly what is transpiring in the mind while the events are taking place. We have zero point of reference for any facts submitted and that's why the "jury is still out". What we need is substantiation and the ONLY way that will ever happen is when the abductees take themselves serious enough to involve and commit themselves to being monitored full time. There is no reason that this means anyone should require institutionalization.

 

[Jeff Davis]

I think i made the obvious points in my post, but i'll elaborate.

The bible has a poor track record for accurately explaining the universe and natural events. and its the word accurately thats the key.

I have no doubt the same bronze age tribesmen who wrote the original storys, would on contact with an ET, call them demons and create a fairytale to narrate their purpose and origins. especially if the encounters mirrored the modern abduction narrative.
But like just about every other explantion in these old texts, its not accurate.
To one of these authors a helicopter would be a chariot of the gods, but we know thats not an accurate description.

So for me, labels from these fairytales are less than useless in describing the phenomena.

Have you studied Keel? You seem exceptionally quick to dismiss someone that is touted by many as being the most brilliant researcher this field has ever seen. If not Mike, it would be difficult to take this further intelligently. The Bible is not a history text book, however, there are virtually no religions that do not include natural spiritual nemesis's that overpower and contain mankind against their will. This is a fact.

I know via previous posts that you are very anti religion, especially Christianity.

I am surprised that you would refer to the Bible as "fairy tales" however. That seems like an emotional and dismissive summation rather than an unbiased perspective. Would you honestly read that to some child at bedtime as a "fairy tale"? Folklore, and cross cultural studies represent FAR more than just fairy tales Mike. Alien behavior is another thing that seems to be ignored in the fear drenched, and over reactive crowds on both sides of the "oh my God it's Demons!" mentality.

BTW, Demons would not mean that UFO machinery needs to be actual Demons disguising themselves. Why couldn't it just be the nature of aliens that are in them?

The problem here is one of extreme superstition as long as you equate Demon's with God/Good - Devil/Evil religiousness.

 

[marduk]

We have zero point of reference for any facts submitted and that's why the "jury is still out". What we need is substantiation and the ONLY way that will ever happen is when the abductees take themselves serious enough to involve and commit themselves to being monitored full time. There is no reason that this means anyone should require institutionalization.

Hmm... let me poke at that.

Let's say we develop warp drive and scoot a scouting party off to Betelgeuse or wherever. We discover a pre-industrial society.

So we land, say "hi", and in response we get the pitchfork and torch treatment from the natives. So we gas one and drag him off to our ship.

We poke and prod him to figure out what kind of critter he is, and in doing we discover an interesting retrovirus in whatever passes for this guy's DNA. Let's say this retrovirus has yet to activate but is passing through the Betelgeusian population. Let's also say that this retrovirus is interesting to us... we predict it will turn the Betelgeusians into a hyperintelligent pan-dimentional shade of the color blue, or simply cure our foot in mouth disease. For whatever reason we're interested in the virus and it's propagation through the host ecosystem.

Now, we could attempt to explain this to the Betelgeusians, but we'd have to back up and explain the germ theory of disease, DNA, and that we're not demons -- that we come from the twinkling lights in the sky.

In doing so, we'd disrupt the society, and hence the transmission of the thing we're actually interested in. Besides, it would be pretty hard and take a long time.

So why bother? Why not just keep bagging some Betelgeusians to see what's happening?

Let's say the Betelgeusians get wise to us. They start watching the individuals we keep grabbing. Staying up all night, with their pitchforks and torches.

We either go grab a different Betelgeusian or gas the whole lot to get at the one we want.

 

[Jeff Davis]

Hmm... let me poke at that.

Let's say we develop warp drive and scoot a scouting party off to Betelgeuse or wherever. We discover a pre-industrial society.

So we land, say "hi", and in response we get the pitchfork and torch treatment from the natives. So we gas one and drag him off to our ship.

We poke and prod him to figure out what kind of critter he is, and in doing we discover an interesting retrovirus in whatever passes for this guy's DNA. Let's say this retrovirus has yet to activate but is passing through the Betelgeusian population. Let's also say that this retrovirus is interesting to us... we predict it will turn the Betelgeusians into a hyperintelligent pan-dimentional shade of the color blue, or simply cure our foot in mouth disease. For whatever reason we're interested in the virus and it's propagation through the host ecosystem.

Now, we could attempt to explain this to the Betelgeusians, but we'd have to back up and explain the germ theory of disease, DNA, and that we're not demons -- that we come from the twinkling lights in the sky.

In doing so, we'd disrupt the society, and hence the transmission of the thing we're actually interested in. Besides, it would be pretty hard and take a long time.

So why bother? Why not just keep bagging some Betelgeusians to see what's happening?

Let's say the Betelgeusians get wise to us. They start watching the individuals we keep grabbing. Staying up all night, with their pitchforks and torches.

We either go grab a different Betelgeusian or gas the whole lot to get at the one we want.

I like your little example, however it illuminates an incredibly large misconception. I am NOT stating that Demons are evil according to our definition of evil. That *is* the superstitious part. I am stating that they have been perceived as evil via their interactions with us due to their different and possibly superior, or advanced nature.

Are we clear on this, not just Marduk, but EVERYONE. Drop the superstitious nonsense and consider demons as simply being aliens and this is a REALLY interesting and plausible angle.

 

[marduk]

Are we clear on this, not just Marduk, but EVERYONE. Drop the superstitious nonsense and consider demons as simply being aliens and this is a REALLY interesting and plausible angle.

Oh, I getcha. I'm just going through a thought experiment.

 

[marduk]

Let's conduct another "what if" scenario.

Aliens from the more fashionable Perseus arm of the milky way get to human-level technology say, a billion years ago.

They go from a biological individual society to a post-biological society where they are all essentially uploaded or created consciousness in a machine substrate. They develop workable nanotech, free energy, warp drive. They set out to explore the universe.

Along the way, let's say in the first million years or so, they lose their sense of individuality. In much the same way that we have various sub-minds in our mind competing for "our" attention, they become sub-minds within the larger group consciousness.

So away the group mind from Omega Perseus X cruising the galaxy in their moonlet-sized cruiser, containing perhaps billions of minds all operating as one.

They stumble upon humanity, let's say, a few thousand years ago. Who, they figure, might just go through the same transformation they did -- therefore they would want to use us to understand themselves/itself.

So they leave a fraction of themselves in deep orbit, hunker down out amongst the oort cloud somewhere, and wait. Send occasional landing craft consisting of a part of themselves in nano-tech custom built for purpose disposable craft (that won't freak us out too much) and movable biological/technological avatars (that also won't freak us out too much) to interact with us with. They come down, poke and prod to see where we're at, and go back to their home in the oort cloud to wait.

And so on. Only they're not biological like us, they're technological. The concept of "medicine" or such stuff is nacent at best. In fact, maybe they steal and enhance some of our techniques -- that we've had the benefit of thousands of years to refine. They knock us out, but not all the time and not perfectly. They wipe our memory, but not all the time and not perfectly.

A few of us wise up that something is going on. How would we monitor what's going on?

With technology that's a billion years out of date. If the nuke shutdowns are to be believed, they can manipulate our technology (based mostly on semiconductors, electrons, and magnets) pretty much at will and remotely.

So that's no problem. Hey, there's a camcorder running? Bing! Not any more. In fact, why don't I just lay down some digitally altered images to make it look like nothing happened, he'll just think he's crazy. There's an alarm system? OK, I've killed the sensors. Etc.

Oh, crap, we didn't wipe out all of their memory or sometimes knock them out at all. We're not so good with meat brains. OK, let's give them a story about their ecology and nuclear war... they seem to be worried about that. They're obsessed with sexual and reproductive stuff... let's put some theatre in there.

I mean, are we going to try to explain to the meat what we really are? A billion years old, immortal, collective machine intelligence?

Just a thought experiment. But it loosely fits a lot of things.

 

[Jeff Davis]

Oh, I getcha. I'm just going through a thought experiment.

Demons/Aliens may have no choice but to interact with biological beings in an informational fashion. In order to do so, it may be necessary to separate the informational composite that we MAY possess. It makes sense if you look at just about everything in the physical universe as being consistent of two poles, or diametric opposites, that function to bring about completion of whatever circuit like configuration is observed.

We know that dreaming can and does have very pronounced physiological effects minus the activity normally associated with the physical result. Possibly no one is ever abducted physically, but rather psychically as that is the realm that these being naturally reside within. Experiments with DMT can also summon these entities. That does in no way mean that they are not real. It just means that there is a portion of us for which we have little practical understanding and long term facilitative development with respect for the realm and application it suggests.

In every Gnostic teaching and Religious overview that I am familiar with, the concept of being "one", or made whole, is extremely evident and distinct. IMO, this is the very real part of us that naturally facilitates such a status of being. It is the informational or Akashic realm to which we are constantly linked minus that ultimate advancement in human sentience.

 

[Jeff Davis]

Let's conduct another "what if" scenario.

Aliens from the more fashionable Perseus arm of the milky way get to human-level technology say, a billion years ago.

They go from a biological individual society to a post-biological society where they are all essentially uploaded or created consciousness in a machine substrate. They develop workable nanotech, free energy, warp drive. They set out to explore the universe.

Along the way, let's say in the first million years or so, they lose their sense of individuality. In much the same way that we have various sub-minds in our mind competing for "our" attention, they become sub-minds within the larger group consciousness.

So away the group mind from Omega Perseus X cruising the galaxy in their moonlet-sized cruiser, containing perhaps billions of minds all operating as one.

They stumble upon humanity, let's say, a few thousand years ago. Who, they figure, might just go through the same transformation they did -- therefore they would want to use us to understand themselves/itself.

So they leave a fraction of themselves in deep orbit, hunker down out amongst the oort cloud somewhere, and wait. Send occasional landing craft consisting of a part of themselves in nano-tech custom built for purpose disposable craft (that won't freak us out too much) and movable biological/technological avatars (that also won't freak us out too much) to interact with us with. They come down, poke and prod to see where we're at, and go back to their home in the oort cloud to wait.

And so on. Only they're not biological like us, they're technological. The concept of "medicine" or such stuff is nacent at best. In fact, maybe they steal and enhance some of our techniques -- that we've had the benefit of thousands of years to refine. They knock us out, but not all the time and not perfectly. They wipe our memory, but not all the time and not perfectly.

A few of us wise up that something is going on. How would we monitor what's going on?

With technology that's a billion years out of date. If the nuke shutdowns are to be believed, they can manipulate our technology (based mostly on semiconductors, electrons, and magnets) pretty much at will and remotely.

So that's no problem. Hey, there's a camcorder running? Bing! Not any more. In fact, why don't I just lay down some digitally altered images to make it look like nothing happened, he'll just think he's crazy. There's an alarm system? OK, I've killed the sensors. Etc.

Oh, crap, we didn't wipe out all of their memory or sometimes knock them out at all. We're not so good with meat brains. OK, let's give them a story about their ecology and nuclear war... they seem to be worried about that. They're obsessed with sexual and reproductive stuff... let's put some theatre in there.

I mean, are we going to try to explain to the meat what we really are? A billion years old, immortal, collective machine intelligence?

Just a thought experiment. But it loosely fits a lot of things.

I really like it! What a tremendous imagination you have my friend. Seriously. Very entertaining and plausible. What a tremendously fascinating world we live in wherein just about anything that we imagine can one day become a reality so mundane that we find surprise in even considering as much day to day.