Banned From The UFO Collective Google Group

[Burnt State]

I believe that at the core of each phenomenon there exists at very minimum a real grain of truth. Real people were and are deranged self proclaimed Satanists that kill for beliefs that mirror gain. What about the abduction phenomenon?

i believe at the core of both of these is a couple of interesting grains of truth: we are eternally fascinated by the weird and bizarre i.e. UFO's and Satansim (a Dennis Wheatley fan i will always be despite his many lies to the public about the supposed 'black arts') and people have inexplicable experiences and they need to put a label on that experience to help sort out something that might be absolutely impossible.

In my books i hold still to the fact that a lot of AAP is about actual real traumas i.e. sexual assault, child abuse and that these remembered traumas take on new manifestations as adults. I'm not a fan of these remembered events where the remembering is done in consultation with a UFO prophet, researcher or other non-professional. I'm very interested in cases like the Pascagoula affair where immediately after the event people are talking to the police, to the news media and they are obviously shaken to their core because they have experienced something impossible, traumatic and completely bizarre with all the surreal trimmings. i put a lot more effort and thought into those cases and would like to hear more about them.

The Cahill and Cortile cases for me are more about collusion, $livelihood$, after the fact confabulation and construction - i don't put much stock in them at all. Those independent witness who step forward immediately afterwards - they've got that grain of truth to them. Do you know of other cases like that?

And what do you make of this one: http://www.cufos.org/rymer.pdf

I've posted this narrative in other debates about abduction where i've been very muddled by this specific narrative - this case has everything that confuses me about AAP and is confused even further by the inclusion of the child - too bizarre...

 

[Heidi Lemmer]

Ok, Marduk, i noticed that you had alluded to your own experience earlier on in the thread and i did want to get back to that issue. You certainly don't have to convince me of anything as it's your experience and let me say this, as someone who has had a very detailed personal experience with multiple witnesses and two UFO's that i documented here:

Two Metallic Craft Visit a Northern Ontario Ice Rink Pt. 1 | The Paracast Community Forums

Two Metallic Craft Visit a Northern Ontario Ice Rink Pt. 2 | The Paracast Community Forums

i want to say that our experiences are what they are. I've had a number of very interesting sleep paralysis incidents in my late early 20's, which included a very surreal abduction scenario and out of body experience, but i'm not going to chalk these up to ET - i'm even critical of my own UFO experience in terms of what it was. All i can say is you need to hold onto the logic centres of your brain and spend time talking critically with people who are dispassionate about UFO's, but who have faith in you, so you can talk it out in a comfortable space. If you are starting to get distracted in your day to day work and living because of your experience then it's time to up the ante and seek out more specific professional talkers/therapists. The first place you can start though, for yourself, is to tally up the evidence and to scrutinize it as dispassionately as Sherlock Holmes would in trying to assess the facts of your experience. Make a detailed series of log entries; ask seriously critical questions for what else could be happening, alternative concrete possibilities and go from there.

So please don't take any of what i've already said or about to say regarding AAP to be directed at you in any way. I just feel very strongly that there's a lot of misguided direction and irresponsible commentary when it comes to dealing with missing time and how the prophets of AAP frame the discussion. Perhaps, your own very critical examination of the literature might give you cause to pause on the AAP piece and discover other possibilities or ways of looking at the situation. I think it's of most importance that we work to establish a truth of sorts regarding the source of AAP and whether or not it has any legs to stand on. I'm very doubtful about the possibility of AAP and won't even begin the why speculation that proposes assertions on something still not proven. I do believe that being a doubtful seeker is a good space to operate from - that way you don't have to commit to any story or researcher no matter how compelling it might first sound at the outset.

Not sure I agree with this, about being a doubtful seeker as a grounded approach to investigate. To me , all the blocks are up already from the start. An open mind seems the best start. If your a grounded person you'll do just fine from this perspective. Someone who I really have enjoyed reading on , Mike Clelland , shows how you can pursue your own investigation. He did a whole series of interviews bases solely on helping himself figuire out what happened to him, sharing this journey as he went. You can tell he naturally rejected the ET idea many times in these interviews but pursued it anyways. For him, the more he pursued the more obvious it became. Not everyone will reach the same conclusion. Even though you've had these experiences Burnt, you seem determined that it "can't" be ET. I think you rob yourself the freedom to explore by closing doors to early. In the end you may find out it's not ET or you may never find out but it's pursued with an open mind.

 

[Jeff Davis]

I'm looking at this the other way around. As an experiencer with just enough experience to make me want to know wtf is going on.

Trying to separate the wheat from the chaff to see what makes sense.

I don't expect my experiences to convince you. That's not my goal.

My goal is to get some answers without losing the logic centers of my brain.

Actually, logic is what got us all to wondering to begin with. That's the stuff that's supposed to make sense out everything, well, this don't, at all. Personally, I am not certain that logic is appropriate with respect for AAP.

Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, the only problem is that when we put all the facts on the table it's not good in the least because the majority of experiencers suffer.

Anything that makes anyone feel complete disregard and utter denigration isn't cool. How do we know that the Fowler books weren't just confusion? It's tough to know.

@mike I'd certainly like to know why we can't consider demons as being aliens? I'm an equal demonology opportunist at heart due to that Keel fellow. Who BTW would waste just about any fact bearing serious studier of the phenomenon on their best day, in his. He was sharp. Not perfect but mighty. It would seem superstitious to just blatantly disregard alien behavior that mirrors the description of demonic activity throughout far more religions than just Christianity. When something basically paints you a folkloric roadmap to it's front door...Hello!

It's worth consideration.

 

[Burnt State]

Not sure I agree with this, about being a doubtful seeker as a grounded approach to investigate. To me , all the blocks are up already from the start. An open mind seems the best start. If your a grounded person you'll do just fine from this perspective. Someone who I really have enjoyed reading on , Mike Clelland , shows how you can pursue your own investigation. He did a whole series of interviews bases solely on helping himself figuire out what happened to him, sharing this journey as he went. You can tell he naturally rejected the ET idea many times in these interviews but pursued it anyways. For him, the more he pursued the more obvious it became. Not everyone will reach the same conclusion. Even though you've had these experiences Burnt, you seem determined that it "can't" be ET. I think you rob yourself the freedom to explore by closing doors to early. In the end you may find out it's not ET or you may never find out but it's pursued with an open mind.

Heidi, I define myself as open minded and critical - that is the lost Zetetic approach that Truzzi initially advocated before CSICOP stole the best ideas and promoted primarily debunking. My brain has roamed very freey over the years and have entertained a lot of weirdness and alternate approaches to reality.

I've cited Hidden Experience above and have listened to most of Mike's work. I find him to be not critical enough, and far too enamoured with his own experience and the kazillion synchronicities he sees everywhere. But I also appreciate his own doubtful seeking and am most engaged with his ability to patiently listen and patiently explore especially when he's the guest instead of host.

I would not want to say I'm determined it can't be ET, as I'm more interested in first seeking out evidence of ET existing. In my own experiences I know intimately what my dream world and sleep paralysis has to offer - and wow, nothing rocks your world better than a good episode of sleep paralysis! But I was patient about it, leapt to no immediate conclusions, even though I was very taken by Phillip Glass' take on missing time in his live performance of 1000 Airplanes on the Roof, and equally taken by Communion. Still, those were not my experiences - I just had a really freaky set of dreams, and had no evidence whatsoever to believe that anything else was at play.

I remain open minded about it all, but am very concerned about the lack of responsibility when it comes to pushing AAP as factual reality, especially the whole implant thing. I subscribe very much to Bishop's concept of the excluded middle and that if we are going to believe in the 'facts' of AAP, or any UFO event, then we need to be extremely nitpicky about each and every case, as opposed to blanket beliefs for cases like the Cahill or Cortile AA reports which have no real proof attached to them.

Edit: is there any other way to approach the whole UFO thing aside from being skeptical? Isn't the other side of the hill a slippery slope.

 

[manxman]

no, i work on the certainty that ET has and still does exist somewhere, and that earth must have been looked upon in the last billion years, the amount of automated ET tech in space must be astronomical by now, aswell as being needles in haystacks still, whether any of it has looked upon earth in my lifetime, i dont know, but that is the ONLY question for me, and the best place to look for space tech, is in space imo..

 

[Heidi Lemmer]

Heidi, I define myself as open minded and critical - that is the lost Zetetic approach that Truzzi initially advocated before CSICOP stole the best ideas and promoted primarily debunking. My brain has roamed very freey over the years and have entertained a lot of weirdness and alternate approaches to reality.

I've cited Hidden Experience above and have listened to most of Mike's work. I find him to be not critical enough, and far too enamoured with his own experience and the kazillion synchronicities he sees everywhere. But I also appreciate his own doubtful seeking and am most engaged with his ability to patiently listen and patiently explore especially when he's the guest instead of host.

I would not want to say I'm determined it can't be ET, as I'm more interested in first seeking out evidence of ET existing. In my own experiences I know intimately what my dream world and sleep paralysis has to offer - and wow, nothing rocks your world better than a good episode of sleep paralysis! But I was patient about it, leapt to no immediate conclusions, even though I was very taken by Phillip Glass' take on missing time in his live performance of 1000 Airplanes on the Roof, and equally taken by Communion. Still, those were not my experiences - I just had a really freaky set of dreams, and had no evidence whatsoever to believe that anything else was at play.

I remain open minded about it all, but am very concerned about the lack of responsibility when it comes to pushing AAP as factual reality, especially the whole implant thing. I subscribe very much to Bishop's concept of the excluded middle and that if we are going to believe in the 'facts' of AAP, or any UFO event, then we need to be extremely nitpicky about each and every case, as opposed to blanket beliefs for cases like the Cahill or Cortile AA reports which have no real proof attached to them.

Edit: is there any other way to approach the whole UFO thing aside from being skeptical? Isn't the other side of the hill a slippery slope.

My apologies in implying a response to your dreams. I haven't read on them yet and was kind of answering the overall theme of investigation but I did however remember your UFO sighting. To me, it's not that scepticism is the evil in the room, it's part of who we are. Or at least the most common response to unbelievable claims. Which , for me, given our history of taking a report and beating it to a pulp for years, while the victim of said claim remains labeled and misled by sceptic fear/denial is the very thing we should watch out for. We should, by all means , step back and look , eye's wide open at all the aspects of a claim. I guess, sadly we have a rich history of both extremes in response to an issue. So for me, I look at this abduction thing as slightly possible simply because of the history surrounding it. We have mass reports, government reports, jets chasing UFO's, pilot reports, times this all over the world. And through this rich history we have a consistent complaint by some of our people that they've been abducted. The degree of memory seems limited, common theme. The medical procedures, common theme. Telepathy as communication, common theme. Lost time, terror, physical scarring, common theme. Even the age groups seem interesting. Kids, teenagers, on up to 40ish, 50ish.....haven't heard a old folks saying they were being abducted??(shoot, does anyone know on this??)

 

[mike]

@mike I'd certainly like to know why we can't consider demons as being aliens? I'm an equal demonology opportunist at heart due to that Keel fellow. Who BTW would waste just about any fact bearing serious studier of the phenomenon on their best day, in his. He was sharp. Not perfect but mighty. It would seem superstitious to just blatantly disregard alien behavior that mirrors the description of demonic activity throughout far more religions than just Christianity. When something basically paints you a folkloric roadmap to it's front door...Hello!

It's worth consideration.

I think i made the obvious points in my post, but i'll elaborate.

The bible has a poor track record for accurately explaining the universe and natural events. and its the word accurately thats the key.

I have no doubt the same bronze age tribesmen who wrote the original storys, would on contact with an ET, call them demons and create a fairytale to narrate their purpose and origins. especially if the encounters mirrored the modern abduction narrative.
But like just about every other explantion in these old texts, its not accurate.
To one of these authors a helicopter would be a chariot of the gods, but we know thats not an accurate description.

So for me, labels from these fairytales are less than useless in describing the phenomena.

 

[Constance]

I think if you'd like to try another possibility please provide one, but i think there's more than ample proof in understanding why alien abduction is just another repetition of SRA, and seeing communists everywhere before that, and then seeing witches prior to that. These are all functions of the natural human belief system that wants to scapegoat something to replace their irrational fears with. I think in the post above it's pretty clear how the myth of SRA parallels the myth of alien abduction. In this way the human condition has more to do with why we have always seen demons, blamed demons or personified demons in the power elite etc.. It's what humans do because it's 1) too hard to admit that people we care about have done terrible things to us, 2) men like to hypnotize women and children to support their own bizarre belief systems 3) the populous will buy into a mythology on a global scale even though there is no proof for it…i could go on but why bother? IMHO the reasons for alien abduction as reported in the masses, across borders, during hypnosis is a highly patterned event that has been taught to the populous, like any religion or belief system, through the same mechanisms of indoctrination that we've always used. It's really no more than that with maybe the most rare of exceptions, but i haven't seen anything beyond a Pascagoula of proof to support that. Do you know of any good cases of alien abduction that we could point to and say - ah yes, there's the proof? The same has been said very vociferously about SRA and it all turned out to be myth in the end. Why do you feel that the AAP is any different?

EDIT: in fact i wish i had more doubt in my mind about what AAP is but in the way that it's been presented to the masses via the prophets of AAP and the hoaxers all i can see is SRA part 2. Beyond doubt, i've given you actual parallel proofs for how the whole "demon in the night" thing works, as it's been reported across the ages, each era replete with its own mythology.

I first heard about the AAP in 1997 from a psychologist I'd known at the university and met one day in a bookstore soon after I began reading ufo research. He told me during our conversation that the mental health community first became aware of the AAP decades earlier when considerable numbers of people began turning up in psychologists' and psychiatrists' offices in numerous countries around the planet all reporting the same core experiences. He also told me that the question of how to deal with these patients was discussed in panels and workshops at national conferences of psychologists and psychiatrists long before news of the reported phenomenon leaked out in the media. I knew him to be a very serious person and had no reason to suspect that he was having me on.

 

[Heidi Lemmer]

Heidi, I define myself as open minded and critical - that is the lost Zetetic approach that Truzzi initially advocated before CSICOP stole the best ideas and promoted primarily debunking. My brain has roamed very freey over the years and have entertained a lot of weirdness and alternate approaches to reality.

I've cited Hidden Experience above and have listened to most of Mike's work. I find him to be not critical enough, and far too enamoured with his own experience and the kazillion synchronicities he sees everywhere. But I also appreciate his own doubtful seeking and am most engaged with his ability to patiently listen and patiently explore especially when he's the guest instead of host.

I would not want to say I'm determined it can't be ET, as I'm more interested in first seeking out evidence of ET existing. In my own experiences I know intimately what my dream world and sleep paralysis has to offer - and wow, nothing rocks your world better than a good episode of sleep paralysis! But I was patient about it, leapt to no immediate conclusions, even though I was very taken by Phillip Glass' take on missing time in his live performance of 1000 Airplanes on the Roof, and equally taken by Communion. Still, those were not my experiences - I just had a really freaky set of dreams, and had no evidence whatsoever to believe that anything else was at play.

I remain open minded about it all, but am very concerned about the lack of responsibility when it comes to pushing AAP as factual reality, especially the whole implant thing. I subscribe very much to Bishop's concept of the excluded middle and that if we are going to believe in the 'facts' of AAP, or any UFO event, then we need to be extremely nitpicky about each and every case, as opposed to blanket beliefs for cases like the Cahill or Cortile AA reports which have no real proof attached to them.

Edit: is there any other way to approach the whole UFO thing aside from being skeptical? Isn't the other side of the hill a slippery slope.

Some of the cases your cite have been sensationalized. I get the need to want to share work on cases, write books, etc but man, once that story gets out it gets so tangled and garbled and it makes me wince in disgust. I'm thinking of the reported cases where the person doesn't want to be known, doesn't follow ufology, fears their job loss or community acceptance. I realize that I personally don't get to examine the case or person claiming it but just with what we have the commonalities alone should cause us to sit up. People would like to see these folks studied in a more modern method, there is none based on acceptance/plausability. But I think that's where we bypass each other Burnt, I believe in aliens, your not sure . If your not sure then abductions must seem wildly crazy. For me they seem a likely next step to visits. It's kinda why man created the petting zoo, it was never enough for us to just observe, we had to get right in there and touch the animal. It seems a natural next step in contact.

 

[mike]

Kelly Cahill Abduction - Dandenong foothills, Australia - August 8, 1993 - UFO Evidence



The following points are the most interesting and suspicious regarding this case:
1) she did not remember it immediately at all - it was a remembering, caught up in a series of dreams not to mention her own religious fervour experiences that pre-dated the night in question
2) the witnesses have no names, no publication details and can not be verified in any way
3) as Bill Chalker points out up above there was no formal report ever issued regarding this case and the case itself is all based on conversations between Auchettl and Cahill
4) the husband Andrew has never supported the events publicly and has no recall of the event himself
5) the similarities between the Cortile case where supposed witnesses exist but never step forward means there is no independent confirmation at all and smacks of collusion
6) her visual transformation smacks of calculated talk show and conference tour endeavours as opposed to someone who just happened to have something happen to her and then went on the news about her experience - no she decided to write the book first and then hit the tour circuit
7) as one of the most reported, repeated and supposedly verified abduction case of all time the legs are extremely thin that it stands upon which is essentially Cahill's narrative and no independent confirmation, it's a good example of how myth making works

Any other strong cases, aside from Travis please? Walton's case has been treated quite thoroughly on the forum where i've vacillated between being a total supporter of the case to discovering that there are also some interesting weak points when we revisit the initial reports of Walton and his media handlers that immediately grabbed hold of the narrative before it hit the airwaves. Still, his story stays consistent and he never went prophet on the whole thing, but it's initial creation as a story is interesting to examine.

Ive met Bill a number of times, he's only human and i dont doubt he was disapointed and aggrieved to be left out of the loop after handing the case on.

Of course the witness have names, they were found and interviewed. That they chose not to have their names published doesnt mean they dont exist.
The husband has given testimony and remembers some of the details, including the smell of vomit in the car etc and of seeing the initial object, getting out of the car etc.

As strange as this encounter seems, it was not without corroboration. The occupants in the other car would come forward and tell almost an exact story, a story of abduction, mind control, and embarrassing procedures.

The account of Kelly Cahill has been examined and reexamined by many researchers. Many theories have been put forward, but nothing new has been uncovered.
Nothing has been proven, or disproved. Kelly Cahill was considered a reliable, honest person by those who knew her at the time of this strange sighting. Her case is considered legitimate by many UFO investigators.

As for her transformation , any personal photo album will show the same thing, fashions and styles change, nothing suspicious about this imo

Individual cases aside, there is a massive body of testimony, most with similar details, craft/occupants/medical exams etc etc.

Yes some people fake these storys, but your premise seems to be one fake makes them all fake

Its a bit like saying this case

Woman charged for 'making up' abduction attempt

Allows us to logically conclude, no one has ever been abducted and raped

The very nature of the AAP , alleged alien spacecraft, an ability to paralyse and impose screen memorys, makes proving even a single case almost impossible to do.
The narrative clearly shows the abductors holding all the cards.

Walk into the foyer of an office block at 9 in the morning, the marble floors are spotless. you didnt see the cleaners who made it so at 3 in the morning, but that doesnt mean by extension no litter was ever dropped on it, no shoe ever scuffed that marble floor.

The alleged abductors clearly want to do this in secret, they hold all the cards, and can litterally disapear from the face of the earth when they are done.

Its hardly then surprising "evidence" is hard to find, for whatever motivation they seem to have decided thats the way they want it.

It doesnt prove its not happening

 

[Heidi Lemmer]

I first heard about the AAP in 1997 from a psychologist I'd known at the university and met one day in a bookstore soon after I began reading ufo research. He told me during our conversation that the mental health community first became aware of the AAP decades earlier when considerable numbers of people began turning up in psychologists' and psychiatrists' offices in numerous countries around the planet all reporting the same core experiences. He also told me that the question of how to deal with these patients was discussed in panels and workshops at national conferences of psychologists and psychiatrists long before news of the reported phenomenon leaked out in the media. I knew him to be a very serious person and had no reason to suspect that he was having me on.

Wow, that would be a good starting point for some research!

 

[Burnt State]

My apologies in implying a response to your dreams. I haven't read on them yet and was kind of answering the overall theme of investigation but I did however remember your UFO sighting….haven't heard a old folks saying they were being abducted??(shoot, does anyone know on this??)

Well if you ask me now what i saw back on that Northern Rink with a bunch of folk and the trace evidence we saw the following summer the only thing i can say is that it looked technological; they behaved like a craft under intelligent control and put on a good show for all present. Was it ET? Was it a set of living creatures behaving like industrial craft - i really have no answers to any of that. I just know that they blew my mind that night and they've caused me to seek a lot for answers on and off over the years.

Old people abduction: that's a really interesting point, Heidi! It's true that kids, teens, people in their 20's, 30's, and 40's report abduction but the elderly not so much - maybe there's a piece right there to consider. I know one stereotype that i participate in is of having seen something strange when i was young and then returning to it in my 40's in a much more pronounced manner. But in most of the popular reported abductions - it's folks in their 20's, or at least they are most often remembering back to an earlier point in their life, often in their 20's, where they are speculating about what might have happened. The Pascagoula case eternally fascinates me because of the age discrepancy between the two guys - Calvin only 19 and Charles was 42 at the time. Hickson would hold to his story forever, but Parker was hospitalized shortly after the experience - he was really shaken by the whole thing and as Hickson explained - he had been in the Korean War and had felt trauma before unlike young Parker. Later in life Parker started to invent a new storyline, claiming he hadn't really passed out but that there was a female alien, a needle in his penis etc. - i'm not sure what to make of that except that UFO's destabilize a lot of witnesses over time.

But when you read this partial transcript that was a secret recording of the two men in the police dept. you really think to yourself - wow, sounds like aliens, at least Heidi, that's what i think when i read this and study their case. It's not that i think they don't exist, in fact the direct opposite. I'm just doubtful about the whole thing and totally curious, but this case, well this one really sounds like aliens:

CALVIN: I got to get home and get to bed or get some nerve pills or see the doctor or something. I can't stand it. I'm about to go half crazy.
CHARLIE: I tell you, when we're through, I'll get you something to settle you down so you can get some damn sleep.
CALVIN: I can't sleep yet like it is. I'm just damn near crazy.
CHARLIE: Well, Calvin, when they brought you out-when they brought me out of that thing, goddamn it I like to never in hell got you straightened out.
His voice rising, Calvin said, "My damn arms, my arms, I remember they just froze up and I couldn't move. Just like I stepped on a damn rattlesnake."
"They didn't do me that way", sighed Charlie.
Now both men were talking as if to themselves.
CALVIN: I passed out. I expect I never passed out in my whole life.
CHARLIE: I've never seen nothin' like that before in my life. You can't make people believe-
CALVIN: I don't want to keep sittin' here. I want to see a doctor-
CHARLIE: They better wake up and start believin'... they better start believin'.
CALVIN: You see how that damn door come right up?
CHARLIE: I don't know how it opened, son. I don't know.
CALVIN: It just laid up and just like that those son' bitches-just like that they come out.
CHARLIE: I know. You can't believe it. You can't make people believe it-
CALVIN: I paralyzed right then. I couldn't move-
CHARLIE: They won't believe it. They gonna believe it one of these days. Might be too late. I knew all along they was people from other worlds up there. I knew all along. I never thought it would happen to me.
CALVIN: You know yourself I don't drink
CHARLIE: I know that, son. When I get to the house I'm gonna get me another drink, make me sleep. Look, what we sittin' around for. I gotta go tell Blanche... what we waitin' for?
CALVIN (panicky): I gotta go to the house. I'm gettin' sick. I gotta get out of here.
Then Charlie got up and left the room, and Calvin was alone.
CALVIN: It's hard to believe . . . Oh God, it's awful... I know there's a God up there...

 

[Burnt State]

Ive met Bill a number of times, he's only human and i dont doubt he was disapointed and aggrieved to be left out of the loop after handing the case on.

Of course the witness have names, they were found and interviewed. That they chose not to have their names published doesnt mean they dont exist.
The husband has given testimony and remembers some of the details, including the smell of vomit in the car etc and of seeing the initial object, getting out of the car etc.

but if you are actually trying to prove the case, this one is just not the one i see as being remotely provable. The only details I have read regarding the husband is that something happened, he had some weird smells and does not believe that they missed any time at all. I think that the lack of names and testimony and the bizarre circuitous way it's treated in Cahill's book - maintaining their authenticity by not naming them - is just plain ridiculous.

Yes some people fake these storys, but your premise seems to be one fake makes them all fake

Not at all, actually. In fact i'm extremely fascinated by cases that appear to actually have alien contact taking place as that's the cat's meow of ufological studies in my books. But I don't see Cahill's individual narrative as worthy of anything else. In fact if anything the whole thing reminds me a lot of Nancy Talbot's investigation of Robert VanDer Fake and all the supposed filings and proof found in the fields - just no documentation, much like Cahill as well.

The other case from Oz featuring the Knowles family strikes me as being much more verifiable and way more tangible than the supposed existence of witnesses that can't be produced - just like the Cortile case.

In fact is there anyone that has actually interviewed these witnesses in Cahill's case or do we just have her word and Auchettl's that they exist - that's what Chalker seems to be suggesting. If it in fact is such an important, critical case, why would there be no real official report created by the investigators?

 

[mike]

Kelly Cahill Abduction - Dandenong foothills, Australia - August 8, 1993 - UFO Evidence



The following points are the most interesting and suspicious regarding this case:


2) the witnesses have no names, no publication details and can not be verified in any way

By November 17 PRA had located the man and woman Kelly had seen that night. It turned out that the couple also had a friend (a woman) with them. These witnesses took Auchettl to the encounter site, to a spot consistent with Kelly's description. The group's drawings of the UFO and entities also closely coincide with Kelly' s.

4) the husband Andrew has never supported the events publicly and has no recall of the event himself

After the encounter Kelly' s recollection faded from conscious memory, despite animated discussions about it with her husband in the immediate wake of the incident. Her husband remembered at least the UFO encounter but not the entities and has not acknowledged the missing time.

5) the similarities between the Cortile case where supposed witnesses exist but never step forward means there is no independent confirmation at all and smacks of collusion

Kelly tried hard to persuade Auchettl to give her the other group' s names, but he refused because he wanted to maintain the integrity of the testimony. Only when the investigation was completed did the three learn what Kelly had been saying. So far they have not attempted to contact her. PRA has uncovered no evidence of a previous connection between the Cahills and the other group.

The real question here, is why you would post such obvious falsehoods to bolster your pov that this "cant" be happening.

Your claims have no basis when compared to Bills own report

 

[Heidi Lemmer]

Another point in all this is the handcuffs we are stuck with. We have no idea how many therapists have received these reports. For some of the people who've veered off to exclusive study of it, there's no support system in place through mainstream society to help their clients. So we see these groups spring up, online blogs, forums, etc. We have little to lose by embracing the idea that this could be real because the more we do, the more evidence we get to look at and actually have a chance to decide. It's almost deceptive in nature, tell the client you agree, get the data and then get back to them on your findings. But, in typical human nature we tell them it's stress, sleep paralysis, too many fiction books and not enough greens in their diet. We delay, baulk, shun, ridicule....all the while getting no closer to whatever that truth is. Personally , I'm betting that the more this is socially accepted the more we'll find it's happening all around us. It happened the same way with making the claim, I've been raped. Society put victims through great hell before we realized that we blamed the wrong people. The U.S armed forces are going through this right now. Women in enormous numbers have come forward to say they've been sexually harassed, raped, handled, etc and theres this brick wall they face. Even after all we've been through on moving this issue forward.

 

[Burnt State]

The real question here, is why you would post such obvious falsehoods to bolster your pov that this "cant" be happening.

Your claims have no basis when compared to Bills own report

Again, if you read what I'm posting above here i'm far, far away from saying that this can't be happening. I just happen to think that both the Cahill and the Cortile case are entirely bogus. Bill's report is based entirely on Cahill and Auchettl from what I understand and we only have Cahill and Auchettl's word that these witnesses exist. I've read Bill's report and he does not cite any independent interviews at all. I think it's very telling that after the fact he publishes his own update about the case, demonstrating sincere misgivings about how it went down and the lack of an official report - yet we have a book, a tour and what looks like plastic surgery. I think the lack of independent witness verification is a critical feature in this case. How's that going to hold up in an court of truth? I would think that it needs a little more effort - next time you see Chalker, ask him if he thinks those witnesses actually exist or was it just reported to him and why did he publish that update that seems to cast doubt on the whole thing?

 

[Burnt State]

Another point in all this is the handcuffs we are stuck with. We have no idea how many therapists have received these reports. For some of the people who've veered off to exclusive study of it, there's no support system in place through mainstream society to help their clients. So we see these groups spring up, online blogs, forums, etc. We have little to lose by embracing the idea that this could be real because the more we do, the more evidence we get to look at and actually have a chance to decide. It's almost deceptive in nature, tell the client you agree, get the data and then get back to them on your findings. But, in typical human nature we tell them it's stress, sleep paralysis, too many fiction books and not enough greens in their diet. We delay, baulk, shun, ridicule....all the while getting no closer to whatever that truth is. Personally , I'm betting that the more this is socially accepted the more we'll find it's happening all around us. It happened the same way with making the claim, I've been raped. Society put victims through great hell before we realized that we blamed the wrong people. The U.S armed forces are going through this right now. Women in enormous numbers have come forward to say they've been sexually harassed, raped, handled, etc and theres this brick wall they face. Even after all we've been through on moving this issue forward.

I don't think that sexual assault and AAP are on the same level at all. I know that sexual assault is a reality in the society i live in and that the stats are absolutely enormous on that topic. It is the most underreported crime going in our society because of the shame and ridicule that has interrupted justice, not too mention the long standing inappropriate manner that the judicial system has dealt with this crime.

However, if in fact AAP is a reality, and people are claiming the equivalent of sexual assault and bodily violation taking place then i would think the first place they need to go to is an actual doctor, to verify that these assaults are taking place, and not a ufological doctor, but a real doctor that can properly treat people who have suffered a terrible traumatic event. Now i don't have stats handy on the subject but i'm guessing that the majority of cases of AAP are talked about well after the event, often years later. Quite often, even in the Derril Sims Paracast interview, we got confirmation of the fact that a lot of people who believe they are victims of AAP have in fact really been sexually assaulted. I think we need to be very careful about this distinction. I think it is entirely irresponsible of "researchers" to persist in helping people with AAP when in fact a real crime may have been committed.

I have incredible sympathy for any person that truly believes that they have been violated. Having worked with young people and adults in this situation many times over the last twenty years i know what this trauma can do to people, especially when the crime is incest. As i've described elsewhere in the forum a fellow colleague once used me as a processing space to work through her sexual assault at the hands of her father. That identification took months of conversation and finally she was convinced that a real therapist was required, especially when she started describing the "stranger" that was in her house that her father was powerless to stop. Of course it was her father all along, but the initial descriptions were of a demonic presence, something almost otherworldly, an impossible thief in the night. So maybe i have bias in this area, but it's not unfamiliar in the AAP literature that there is a high correlation between sexual assault victims and claims of AAP.

So before we traumatize people even further by allowing claims of assault by aliens to go forward, i think it's in everyone's best interest to get at the real criminals here on earth before we go off world. I don't think anyone should ever be ridiculed about their trauma but real help is not a hypnotist, or Derril Sims as hypnotherapist.

 

[mike]

Again, if you read what I'm posting above here i'm far, far away from saying that this can't be happening. I just happen to think that both the Cahill and the Cortile case are entirely bogus. Bill's report is based entirely on Cahill and Auchettl from what I understand and we only have Cahill and Auchettl's word that these witnesses exist. I've read Bill's report and he does not cite any independent interviews at all. I think it's very telling that after the fact he publishes his own update about the case, demonstrating sincere misgivings about how it went down and the lack of an official report - yet we have a book, a tour and what looks like plastic surgery. I think the lack of independent witness verification is a critical feature in this case. How's that going to hold up in an court of truth? I would think that it needs a little more effort - next time you see Chalker, ask him if he thinks those witnesses actually exist or was it just reported to him and why did he publish that update that seems to cast doubt on the whole thing?

Source: Bill Chalker, International UFO Reporter, Sept/Oct 1994, Vol 19, No 5

Kelly Cahill Abduction - Dandenong foothills, Australia - August 8, 1993 - UFO Evidence

To which you attempt to debunk the case with claims of fact that are at best incorrect, worse deliberatly dishonest, and guesses like "looks like plastic surgery"

 

[mike]

I was at one the book launch's for this one

DNA Sample From Abduction Case Raises Big Questions, UFO Casebook Files

But of course since someone has decided to disseminate this case by selling books, i guess its suspect as well

Even though he passed a lie detector test

By 1998, I began an investigation into the hair sample, when biochemical colleagues agreed to undertake what was the world's first PCR (polymerase Chain Reaction) DNA profiling of biological material implicated in an alien abduction experience. The analysis confirmed the hair came from someone who was biologically close to normal human genetics, but of an unusual racial type - a rare Chinese Mongoloid type - one of the rarest human lineages known, that lies further from the human mainstream than any other except for African pygmies and aboriginals.


There was the strange anomaly of it being blonde to clear instead of black, as would be expected from the Asian type mitochondrial DNA.
The study concluded,
"The most probable donor of the hair must therefore be as (Khoury) claims: a tall blonde female who does not need much color in her hair or skin, as a form of protection against the sun, perhaps because she does not require it."

The DNA sequence overlayed was extracted from the hair sample recovered by Khoury (from the cover of the International UFO Reporter (IUR), Spring, 1999)Magnified hair sample showing optical transparency and pronounced mosaic structure. The circles of light are reflections. Photo taken from video (B.Chalker/APEG). The DNA sequence on the left is from the hair shaft.
The original DNA work was done on the shaft of the hair. Fascinating further anomalies were found in the root of the hair.

Two types of DNA were found depending on where the mitochondrial DNA testing occurs, namely confirming the rare Chinese type DNA in the hair shaft and indicating a rare possible Basque/Gaelic type DNA in the root section.This was very puzzling and controversial, until a 'Nature Biotechnology' paper appeared in 2000. It revealed recent findings on hair transplanting with previously incompatible hair, using advanced cloning techniques, developed in a possible cure for baldness.
We seem to be seeing similar combined or "grafted" DNA in the sample recovered under controversial circumstances by Peter Khoury back in 1992.Perhaps even more controversial is that we have findings suggestive of nuclear DNA indicating possible viral resistance.
The hair sample seems to show it contains 2 deleted genes for CCR5 protein and no intact gene for normal undeleted CCR5 - this CCR5 deletion factor has been implicated in AIDS resistance.

The Hair Root DNA Sequence
To keep a very complex story somewhat uncomplicated, what seems to be suggested by the range of findings is possible evidence for advanced DNA techniques and DNA anomalies & findings, for which we are only now discovering or starting to make sense of in mainstream biotechnology.

 

[Burnt State]

Source: Bill Chalker, International UFO Reporter, Sept/Oct 1994, Vol 19, No 5

Kelly Cahill Abduction - Dandenong foothills, Australia - August 8, 1993 - UFO Evidence

To which you attempt to debunk the case with claims of fact that are at best incorrect, worse deliberatly dishonest, and guesses like "looks like plastic surgery"

yep, that's the case report i was quoting Chalker from. Why do you think he posted an update almost a decade after the fact? Why do you think there was no real report properly filed by Auchettl?