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smcder
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Looks like Blogger will support web pages ... not sure how this works exactly or the limitations ... still exploring, if anyone has any experience let me know.
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"Is Consciousness primary? Michel Bitbol CREA, CNRS / Ecole Polytechnique, 1, rue Descartes, 75005 Paris, France NeuroQuantology, vol. 6, n°1, 53-72, 2008 ...
Abstract : Six arguments against the view that conscious experience derives from a material basis are reviewed. These arguments arise from epistemology, phenomenology, neuropsychology, and philosophy of quantum mechanics. It turns out that any attempt at proving that conscious experience is ontologically secondary to material objects both fails and brings out its methodological and existential primacy ...
Once again we see the word "prove". All proof is, is sufficient evidence to justify belief in a claim, and there's plenty enough evidence to provide sufficient cause for some people ( myself included ) to believe that "conscious experience derives from a material basis". Therefore, for some people, the view has been proven, while for others, it has not. And let's not forget: Failing to prove the opposite of what somebody wants to believe doesn't make their belief true, or necessarily even credible. For example, not to compare the two issues, but to illustrate a point, I can't prove there are no unicorns, and writing 6 academic papers on it wouldn't prove there are no unicorns, but that doesn't make it reasonable to believe in unicorns.
Once again we see the word "prove". All proof is, is sufficient evidence to justify belief in a claim, and there's plenty enough evidence to provide sufficient cause for some people ( myself included ) to believe that "conscious experience derives from a material basis". Therefore, for some people, the view has been proven, while for others, it has not. And let's not forget: Failing to prove the opposite of what somebody wants to believe doesn't make their belief true, or necessarily even credible. For example, not to compare the two issues, but to illustrate a point, I can't prove there are no unicorns, and writing 6 academic papers on it wouldn't prove there are no unicorns, but that doesn't make it reasonable to believe in unicorns.
The world is not a collection of objects, it is indissolubly a perceptive-experience-of-objects or an imaginative experience of objects out of reach of perceptive experience. Conscious experience is self-evidently pervasive and existentially primary. Any scientific undertaking presupposes one’s own experience and the others experiences as well. The objective descriptions which are characteristic of science arise as an invariant structural focus for subjects endowed with conscious experience.
. . . Experience, or elementary consciousness, can then be said to be methodologically primary for science; this is not a scientific statement, it just expresses a most basic prerequisite of science
"
Can you clarify this statement:
"And let's not forget: Failing to prove the opposite of what somebody wants to believe doesn't make their belief true, or necessarily even credible."
Robin Faichney.Blatner seems to indicate that Heidegger was unclear on whether a world depended on dasein or vice versa. This may be repeating the same old chicken-egg problem of a working dasein in a vacuum (deworlded dasein is often framed as "consciousness" and put aside as an entity rather than leaving it as is in its necessary relations & connections to an environment with tools, objectives, methods, goals, etc.) Our language likes to set limits and bounds on entities based on these relations. Something like seems to be the target of Metzinger's thesis regarding the phenomenal self-model.
"The brain, specifically the brainstem and hypothalamus, processes this information into representational content, namely linguistic reflections. The PSM then uses this representational content to attribute phenomenal states to our perceived objects and ourselves. We are thus what Metzinger calls naïve realists, who believe we are perceiving reality directly when in actuality we are only perceiving representations of reality. The data structures and transport mechanisms of the data are “transparent” so that we can introspect on our representations of perceptions, but cannot introspect on the data or mechanisms themselves." (Self-model theory of subjectivity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
Now to address the issues you raised in this comment:
If we take the reality engine of our PSM (Metzinger) which shows how a mechanism embedded in a world can also embed a model of itself in a "world" within itself and now consider the model of a world with itself in that model of the world considering its own conceptions of how the entire transaction occurred--its a mess to work out because we are dealing with our understanding of the visible relations lying within the domain of our neurological infrastructure and trying to work out first and third order perspectives. With the third order perspective, we break things up and habitually "deworld" them (stare at them and divorce them from the relational totality which preceded their formation) reversing the necessary transparency layer of the object (i.e. you don't "notice" what works -- working tools and environment lay in the background of phenomenal experience as a basis and become "noticed" when something in the relational totality linking "in order to's" become twisted or broken--Dasien giving mention to these relations now "sees" what was transparent and tries to find meaning in a broken chain)
So to be clear our conception of our own "consciousness" requires the engines and infrastructure primitives of our own understanding, if those primitives and their relations emerge our own understanding to denote "consciousness," as a term for the entire process, then what can we do but laugh at our own attempt to reverse engineer a process (and its relations to other things, processes) as though it was a self-sufficient entity? Thus when the PSM breaks down we end up with a similar issue: the brain attempts to dissect and disassemble its own structures leading to some of the pathologies and aberrations (altered states) cited by Metzinger.
If Heidegger is to be taken seriously, the phrase "dasein is its world existingly" doesn't denote any foundationalism of "world" dependent on "dasein" or vice versa--if true then perhaps the only way to solve the chicken-egg issue is to use an evolutionary or natural selection model to help us determine precedence--which is a funny way of saying that the problem doesn't really exist, or only existed due to human elementalism habits.
So in short, by the time we get to our own idea of consciousness, the transparent and background processes and infrastructure have already pre-loaded the answer in our questioning--we'll formulate virtual entities and relations in our PSM--its like a Virtualbox virtual machine trying to understand the hardware through the distortions of its hypervisor
Re pre-reflective consciousness
Affording introspection: an alternative model of inner awareness. - PubMed - NCBI
And here's another, easier to read, version:Here is a link to the full paper you cited, which I will read. There is as usual at the PubMed site a list of related papers taking different positions on the subject which also need to be consulted, including one I recently linked..
Affording introspection: an alternative model of inner awareness
Nevermind, I've sorted it.
Can you point to specific concerns in the article?
http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/4007/1/ConsciousnessPrimaryArt2.pdf
Currently there is good evidence to suggest that mirror neurons, which are activated when we see others engaged in intentional actions, are not activated when we see mechanical things do the things that could be done by people (see, e.g., Di Pellegrino et al. 1992; Gallese 1996; Tai et al. 2004). So, if a monkey sees food being grasped by a mechanical apparatus rather than by a monkey or human hand, its MNs fail to fire.
This is an appropriate place to cite again this major work by Kelly and Kelly et al, Irreducible Mind: Towards a Psychology for the 21st Century.
Amazon description:
"Current mainstream opinion in psychology, neuroscience, and philosophy of mind holds that all aspects of human mind and consciousness are generated by physical processes occurring in brains. Views of this sort have dominated recent scholarly publication. The present volume, however, demonstrates empirically that this reductive materialism is not only incomplete but false. The authors systematically marshal evidence for a variety of psychological phenomena that are extremely difficult, and in some cases clearly impossible, to account for in conventional physicalist terms. Topics addressed include phenomena of extreme psychophysical influence, memory, psychological automatisms and secondary personality, near-death experiences and allied phenomena, genius-level creativity, and 'mystical' states of consciousness both spontaneous and drug-induced. The authors further show that these rogue phenomena are more readily accommodated by an alternative 'transmission' or 'filter' theory of mind/brain relations advanced over a century ago by a largely forgotten genius, F. W. H. Myers, and developed further by his friend and colleague William James. This theory, moreover, ratifies the commonsense conception of human beings as causally effective conscious agents, and is fully compatible with leading-edge physics and neuroscience. The book should command the attention of all open-minded persons concerned with the still-unsolved mysteries of the mind."
Early in Part 4 of this thread Steve [smcder] provided an overview of the parts of this book, which I'll link next.