• NEW! LOWEST RATES EVER -- SUPPORT THE SHOW AND ENJOY THE VERY BEST PREMIUM PARACAST EXPERIENCE! Welcome to The Paracast+, eight years young! For a low subscription fee, you can download the ad-free version of The Paracast and the exclusive, member-only, After The Paracast bonus podcast, featuring color commentary, exclusive interviews, the continuation of interviews that began on the main episode of The Paracast. We also offer lifetime memberships! Flash! Take advantage of our lowest rates ever! Act now! It's easier than ever to susbcribe! You can sign up right here!

    Subscribe to The Paracast Newsletter!

Consciousness and the Paranormal — Part 5

Free episodes:

Status
Not open for further replies.
Steve, I've been trying to locate your 10-12-page compendium of the main lines of evidence presented in Irreducible Mind and not succeeding. Can you find the beginning of it and link the post here?
Thanks.
 
Steve, I've been trying to locate your 10-12-page compendium of the main lines of evidence presented in Irreducible Mind and not succeeding. Can you find the beginning of it and link the post here?
Thanks.

Consciousness and the Paranormal — Part 3

post #41 on part 3 of the C&P, top of page three and following

the author's summary I link to there doesn't seem to be available ... but the link underneath that is still good:

Request Rejected

Not sure why the link reads "request rejected" at least here on my screen ... but here is the URL and it does seem to work, I'll split it out below:

http:

//www.medicine.virginia.edu/clinical/departments/psychiatry/sections/cspp/dops/Ramachandran%20EHB%20article%20FINAL.pdf
 
So obviously you didn't follow the link on the Institute website: Irreducible-Mind-Toward-a-Psychology-for-the-21st-Century. I wonder why they didn't suggest you get it from your local library?

An individual buying from the publisher would bear the full cost of the book. Amazon gets wholesale rates of course and I think (Ill check next week) libraries have different rates from individuals since many people can read the one book.

My library had to search and find it at another library at some cost in terms of staff time and shipping costs ... the catch is there's a 10x higher fine ($1.00 a day) on inter- library loans and if I lose the book I pay not only replacement cost but also additional fees to the lending library.

The overall costs of the process are borne by taxpayers at the county level.
 
Btw, I love this new line in your signature:

"Quantum mechanics ... ? So simple a primate could do it." - Kestrel Q. Fossillbottom The Al Dente Chronicles

I hope you'll write that whole book since, having looked it up at amazon, I see it's not there yet. And I really want to read it. ;)
 
It seems like I remember the cost of the book ad $90 dollars or so (cost of replacement to the lending library) so it may be that libraries have to buy from publishers in order to offer the book for lending. Ill find out more next week.
No need. Grab my attention when something new comes up that doesn't lead us down the same old paths in a giant circle to where we've already been.
 
Catching up on reading still--I cannot process this stuff so quickly...so that explains my temporary silence. However, I can try again to re-invent the wheel that has probably been presented in various forms (likely).

The most important question in my mind (right now) is "why do humans consider second or third order perspectives and abstractions to have a greater ontological foundation?"

The simple answer (almost a reflex) is that evolution requires it (second and third order allows for a better coupling of the organism-system with its environment).

Notice how my language implies disconnected domains and ownership without any help to the argument. Language says more than we speak when we speak it...it is a replicator in its own right with its own autonomy. Autonomy exists in its most primordial form when the effects of a process are fed back into it as a "cause." Strange that the mixing of the tails of causation lead to this because the very tools and infrastructure we depend on require a defined direction (which is the effect and which is the cause!)

But each moment can flip the states of causality (tails become swapped)...A corrects B corrects A...a steam governor, thermostats or servomechanism works this way.

We ask what is special about us (how we "feel" aware and conscious)...we consider the tools of our own understanding and comprehension a mystery. But pretend for a moment that the simple A corrects B corrects A scenario is the atom of pure physical consciousness...from what source do we derive the need for an explanation? Are we really sure that the correct path to the best understanding lies in pursuing the very pursuer we wish to expose? How can such a world-revealer uncover its own mechanism of un-revealing. What if there was never anything hidden? What if we...like the toddler... simply chase a toy tied to our backs?

I know these are simplistic metaphors and examples...we've all thought about them from one time or another. Reducing ourselves to atoms we may find that the very contradictions of self-examination are mirrored in a simple logic contradiction...the firmware of thought being revealed as the mathematical structure of the universe. Incidentally it is also the firmware of the "physical" realm.

More to come...take what I've said tonight with a grain of salt.
 
http://www.ams.org/notices/200902/rtx090200226p.pdf

Free Will Versus Determinism
We conclude with brief comments on some of the more philosophical consequences of the Free Will Theorem (abbreviated to FWT).Some readers may object to our use of the term “free will” to describe the indeterminism of particle responses. Our provocative ascription of free will to elementary particles is deliberate, since our theorem asserts that if experimenters have a certain freedom, then particles have exactly the same kind of freedom. Indeed, it is natural to suppose that this latter freedom is the ultimate explanation of our own.

The humans who choose x, y, z, and w may of course be replaced by a computer program containing a pseudo-random number generator. If we dismiss as ridiculous the idea that the particles might be privy to this program, our proof would remain valid. However, as we remark in [1], freewill would still be needed to choose the random number generator, since a determined determinist could maintain that this choice was fixed from the dawn of time.
We have supposed that the experimenters’ choices of directions from the Peres configuration are totally free and independent. However, the freedom we have deduced for particles is more constrained, since it is restricted by the TWIN axiom. We introduced the term “semi-free” in [1]to indicate that it is really the pair of particles that jointly makes a free decision.
Historically, this kind of correlation was a great surprise, which many authors have tried to explain away by saying that one particle influences the other. However, as we argue in detail in [1],the correlation is relativistically invariant, unlike any such explanation. Our attitude is different: following Newton’s famous dictum “Hypotheses non fingo”, we attempt no explanation, but accept the correlation as a fact of life.

Some believe that the alternative to determinism is randomness, and go on to say that “allowing randomness into the world does not really help in understanding free will.” However, this objection does not apply to the free responses of the particles that we have described. It may well be true that classically stochastic processes such as tossing a (true) coin do not help in explaining freewill, but, as we show in the Appendix and in §10.1of [1], adding randomness also does not explain the quantum mechanical effects described in our theorem. It is precisely the “semi-free” nature of twinned particles, and more generally of entanglement, that shows that something very different from classical stochasticism is at play here.

Although the FWT suggests to us that determinism is not a viable option, it nevertheless enables us to agree with Einstein that “God does not play dice with the Universe.” In the present state of knowledge, it is certainly beyond our capabilities to understand the connection between the free decisions of particles and humans, but the freewill of neither of these is accounted for by mere randomness.

The tension between human free will and physical determinism has a long history. Long ago, Lucretius made his otherwise deterministic particles “swerve” unpredictably to allow for free will. It was largely the great success of deterministic classical physics that led to the adoption of determinism by so many philosophers and scientists, particularly those in fields remote from current physics. (This remark also applies to “compatibalism”,a now unnecessary attempt to allow for human free will in a deterministic world.)

Although, as we show in [1], determinism may formally be shown to be consistent, there is no longer any evidence that supports it, in view of the fact that classical physics has been superseded by quantum mechanics, a non-deterministic theory. The import of the free will theorem is that it is not only current quantum theory, but the world itself that is non-deterministic, so that no future theory can return us to a clockwork universe.
 
Perhaps someone has alluded to this but my thinking is that Dasein necessarily finds deterministic framework as a prerequisite (basis or pre-condition) for any experience of "freewill"...without a deterministic universe the very threads of Dasein and it's embedding in and as a world existing-ly would be a blatant contradiction

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
 
Extracts from the paper Steve linked:

"To say that A’s choice of x, y, z is free means more precisely that it is not determined by (i.e., is not a function of) what has happened at earlier times (in any inertial frame). Our theorem is the surprising consequence that particle a’s response must be free in exactly the same sense, that it is not a function of what has happened earlier (with respect to any inertial frame)."


"The humans who choose x, y, z, and w may of course be replaced by a computer program containing a pseudo-random number generator. If we dismiss as ridiculous the idea that the particles might be privy to this program, our proof would remain valid. However, as we remark in [1], free will would still be needed to choose the random number generator, since a determined determinist could maintain that this choice was fixed from the dawn of time.

We have supposed that the experimenters’ choices of directions from the Peres configuration are totally free and independent. However, the freedom we have deduced for particles is more constrained, since it is restricted by the TWIN axiom. We introduced the term “semi-free” in [1] to indicate that it is really the pair of particles that jointly makes a free decision."


What are the implications of this theory for our idea of time? If the universe we appear to exist in was produced from a single particle [as postulated in Big Bang theory], would that particle not have had to have been entangled with [and continue to be entangled with] another particle, thus extending the ground of entanglement beyond the closed universe we think we exist in? If so, what is the significance of the nonlocality of consciousness? It seems to me that its significance is potentially infinite, and that human consciousness has somehow long sensed this possibility.

Perhaps this makes no sense from a mathematical perspective, but this train of thought came up for me by the authors' use several times of the phrase "the dawn of time," each usage of the phrase connected to deterministic theory.

So if "it is really the pair of particles that jointly makes a free decision," this interactive and integrative relation might constitute the source of both persisting integral order/balance in nature and the natural limits within which our free will operates?

 
Perhaps someone has alluded to this but my thinking is that Dasein necessarily finds deterministic framework as a prerequisite (basis or pre-condition) for any experience of "freewill"...without a deterministic universe the very threads of Dasein and it's embedding in and as a world existing-ly would be a blatant contradiction

Hmm. I usually think of the self-recogition/self-comprehension of Dasein {i.e., of "be=ing in the [or a] world"} in existentially primordial terms, as a difference in perception, experience, and thought {the perceptual synthesis that Kelly and Kelly discuss} that makes a singular difference in subsequent thought, even constitutes a singularity in the transcendence of prereflective experience in its passage into reflective experience. This recognition of the interplay and interdependence of one's own mobile, partial, and changing point of view with what one sees and understands about the environing world brings about the 'standing out' [ek-stase, ekstatic situation] of consciousness in the world as Heidegger made clear. This revelation of the nature and significance of one's perception changes everything. Here consciousness enters an unending meditation on the nature of 'reality'.

ETA -- a 'reality' open-ended on both sides of the perceptual synthesis since things in the world are also subject to change, exist in change.
 
Last edited:
So much of what I think and post has its origin in phenomenological philosophy in general and its development in Merleau-Ponty's phenomenology in particular that what I write here has often been misunderstood by posters who have not pursued this philosophical background. I think that reading the table of contents of MP's Phenomenology of Perception (linked below) might in itself provide a guide to his thinking and, at best, inspire others to read at least some sections of this essential work on consciousness.

http://pages.uoregon.edu/toadvine/PP Table of Contents.pdf
 
For anyone interested enough in MP's philosophy, the SEP article at the link provides a next step in gaining a general comprehension of its elements and integrations..

Extract

". . . The human order opens what Merleau-Ponty calls a ‘third dialectic’. Tied neither to a fact, nor to a delineated type of situation, it institutes a domain of culture in which the object is in no immediate sense related to a biological function. This ‘third dialectic’ is characterized by “the Hegelian term ‘work’” (SB, 163). Following Kojève, Merleau-Ponty regards ‘work’ as instituting a delay between a biological stimulus and a response, thus opening a domain of culture. He argues that Language, as a domain of signification, radically transcends the domain of a singular fact. Then he shows that between these three structures there is no equality, inasmuch as the study of nature, inanimate or animate, is accomplished in language. It is at this point that he cites Hegel approvingly: “The mind of nature is a hidden mind. It is not produced in the form of mind. It is only mind for the mind that knows it.” Then Merleau-Ponty continues, “In reality, we have already introduced consciousness, and what we have designated under the name of life was already consciousness of life. The concept is only the interior of nature, says Hegel. And already it seemed to us that the notion of a living body could not be grasped without the unity of signification, which distinguishes a gesture from a sum of movements” (SB, 161–162). Between consciousness and nature there is not a relation of exteriority. At this period in Merleau-Ponty's thought, Husserl's notion of intentionality has not yet been integrated into his thinking. It could be said that the role Hegel played in The Structure of Behavior has, in his later work, been displaced by Husserl. Nonetheless, the quote from Hegel's Philosophy of Nature cannot but strike the reader of The Visible and the Invisible where Merleau-Ponty speaks of the Invisible as the Invisibleof the Visible, as its lining.

In both the Phenomenology of Perception and The Visible and the Invisible, he elaborates a conception of the relationship between the body and the soul that both retains and transforms the conception presented in The Structure of Behavior. Against Descartes, he claims that this relation is not a relationship between two substances which would in some way connect with one another. On the contray, the three structures are integrated, one into the other, in such a way that it reminds the reader of Hegel's notion of sublation (Aufhebung) whereby the lower is both cancelled, as independent, and also retained. When this synthesis is accomplished, the autonomy of the lower is annulled; however, the synthesis can become undone, in which case the autonomy of the lower structure re-emerges. When this synthesis is effected, the lower structure does not exist as such. “The appearance of reason and mind does not leave intact a sphere of self-enclosed instincts” (SB, 181). Merleau-Ponty insists that when speaking of the physical, the vital and the human structures, one should not conceive of them as acting on one another in a causal manner. “Each of them has to be conceived as a retaking and ‘new’ structuralization of the preceding one” (SB, 184). Insofar as the ‘third dialectic’ has fully integrated the physical and the vital structures so that they no longer act as autonomous systems, one could say that “body and soul are no longer distinguished” (SB, 203). Nonetheless, when they disintegrate then they are experienced as distinct. Merleau-Ponty writes, “This is the truth of dualism” (SB, 209).

As we have seen, the Gestalt does not exist as a thing in nature, rather it is viewed as an object of ‘knowledge’ for a subject. Thus we see that Merleau-Ponty comes to the threshold of transcendental philosophy, however, it is his ‘interrogation of the subject’ which blocks his entry into critical philosophy proper. He views this subject as neither the substantial subject of Descartes, nor the Kantian “I think” that can accompany any possible experience, rather it is a subject which has itself been constituted by a dialectic of physical and vital structures. He tells us that we must relativize the notion of body and soul, since each moment of the dialectic is “…soul with respect to the preceding one, and body with respect to the following one” (SB, 210). The subject for whom nature appears is itself the result of a dialectic which is, in the sense indicated above, a part of nature. Thus, to the question that forms the title of the last chapter of The Structure of Behavior, “Is there not a truth to naturalism?”, the answer is “Yes.” Merleau-Ponty's reflections on the being of the Gestalt led him to Hegel who claims that “Nature is the exterior of the concept” (SB, 210), but for Hegel, when the concept becomes conscious of itself, it comes to see that it has no exterior. On the contrary, for Merleau-Ponty the Gestalt must be conceived of as a unity of both nature and idea. This unity is intractable. There is in experience an “original text which cannot be extracted from its relationship to nature. The signification is embodied” (SB, 211). Thus we see that the consciousness for which the Gestalt exists is not an intellectual consciousness, rather it is a perceptual consciousness. According to critical philosophy, nature becomes a system of representations which exists for a consciousness whose activity is the condition of its possibility as appearance. Its unity is engendered by the synthesis which the subject effects of itself by its apperception and which it articulates in the “Table of Judgments. . . .”

Maurice Merleau-Ponty (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
 
So much of what I think and post has its origin in phenomenological philosophy in general and its development in Merleau-Ponty's phenomenology in particular that what I write here has often been misunderstood by posters who have not pursued this philosophical background. I think that reading the table of contents of MP's Phenomenology of Perception (linked below) might in itself provide a guide to his thinking and, at best, inspire others to read at least some sections of this essential work on consciousness.

http://pages.uoregon.edu/toadvine/PP Table of Contents.pdf

I definitely have misunderstandings and probably have committed some phenomenological heresies here and there--usually when I forget to add quotes to old style genera like "consciousness," "subject," "object," "causality," etc
(I've actually gasped a few times reading my past comments--but I can usually salvage the central idea from the butchery :) )
Hopefully there are some good ideas to work with -- I've always wondered what precisely was the conflict between a deterministic universe (a concept we create in our PSMs) and our experience of "freewill." It seemed to me that without a deterministic universe with rules, choices and relations would cease to have meaning. Even the definition sets itself erroneously against its own elements

  1. the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. Some philosophers have taken determinism to imply that individual human beings have no free will and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions.

Of course the real issue I wonder even now as I write this--seeing the problem is one of externalizing, de-worlding and disassociating the elements in the Dasein-world totality? The only way Dasein can realize itself in a world of things and equipment is to have a universe that follows principles and rules, and since Dasein is a emergence from the same basis as its relations to equipment and its environment and the very act of deciding has as its basis the pre-existing relation in the world to itself before a virtual machine encapsulated these relations itself into a model of the world into itself. Dasein and the world are coeval in the respect that the condition for the possibility of reflection lies on a deterministic framework that had no world (ontological).

Now to catch up on reading and other tasks :)
 
This paper might be helpful:

On the reality of percepts: Husserl and Gibson
ANDREA ZHOK, Università degli Studi di Milano

Abstract

Although the theoretical background of Edmund Husserl and James Gibson respectively could be hardly more distant, their accounts of perception show high compatibility. This compatibility does not extend to the ontological status of percepts. We propose here a short contrastive analysis of Gibson’s and Husserl’s theses on the relation between perception and reality. We dwell on three restrictions formulated by Gibson with regard respectively to the nature of memory, imagination and the biological meaning of affordances. These restrictions, which are functional to Gibson’s direct realism, are then criticised in the light of relevant Husserlian analyses. Finally, we suggest a phenomenological line of inquiry able to address and resettle the ordinary notion of perceptual reality.

Extract

"The second problem concerns the meaning of the relevant judgments of coherence (or not). This second question concerns the very nature of the cross-modal reality to be found. Regardless of the problem of what is in common between modalities, the essential question from a Husserlian point of view would sound: what is the meaning of the apparently self-evident assumption that reality is the locus where all sensuous modalities agree? Why do we judge that modal information which is discordant (the stick bent in water) signals unreality? Here we are interested only in the general sense of Husserl’s answer, because of its incompatibility with any obvious naturalistic realism: phenomenologically, reality is not a fact, but a tèlos, and precisely a constitutive, immanent, non arbitrary tèlos (not to be mixed up with an Aristotelian final cause)."
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top