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Consciousness and the Paranormal — Part 9

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'Decode' from what 'code'? Is the implied 'code' pre-established and determinate/determining, pre-existing being? If we understand MP and Morris, do we not have to recognize being as developing in experience, with experience grounding such concepts as 'for-itself' and 'in-itself', phenomena and 'noumena'?

An experience ground would be--from our point of view--something like an 'in-itself'. If we try to to ground experience with our notions of 'for-itself' or 'in-itself;' 'phenomena and noumena; we'll end up with the tail wagging the dog I think. I think we agree on this point -- but I am having a hard time parsing your statement. The code is something that arises after pre-established 'being' -- but the conditions for the possibility of the code is not the code.
 
The macroscopic level is derived from the microscopic level, no?


And that's all (1) claims.

But there's reason to believe that it's disproven; namely the failure to answer the HP via classic models.

Macrpscopic model can be described classically ... Although there's evidence for QM effects macro?

Not answered yet ... So its not disproven.

Keep working!
 
@Soupie on the one hand youre saying science is materialist on the other you're quoting QM
Who are you arguing with? I don't think anyone here is saying the world IS whirling particles. At least not in the Democritean sense.

But the HP alone isn't reason to abandon what we know for something like CR ...

It IS reason enough to look around though! So keep going.

But so far, all the approaches I've seen have an HP of their own.
 
Yes, Thad Roberts makes the same argument in pursuit of QST. A fully determined, material reality.

You didn't read the section.

"Quantum physicists have only probability laws because for two generations we have been indoctrinated not to believe in causes – and so we have stopped looking for them. Indeed, any attempt to search for the causes of microphenomena is met with scorn and a charge of professional incompetence and ‘obsolete mechanistic materialism’. Therefore, to explain the indeterminacy in current quantum theory we need not suppose there is any indeterminacy in Nature; the mental attitude of quantum physicists is already sufficient to guarantee it.2 This point also needs to be stressed, because most people who have not studied quantum theory on the full technical level are incredulous when told that it does not concern itself with causes; and, indeed, it does not even recognize the notion of ‘physical reality’. The currently taught interpretation of the mathematics is due to Niels Bohr, who directed the Institute for Theoretical Physics in Copenhagen; therefore it has come to be called ‘The Copenhagen interpretation’. As Bohr stressed repeatedly in his writings and lectures, present quantum theory can answer only questions of the form: ‘If this experiment is performed, what are the possible results and their probabilities?’ It cannot, as a matter of principle, answer any question of the form: ‘What is really happening when ...?’ Again, the mathematical formalism of present quantum theory, like Orwellian newspeak, does not even provide the vocabulary in which one could ask such a question."

Did Thad Roberts say that??

;-)
 
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You didn't read the section.
This?

"10.7 But what about quantum theory? Those who cling to a belief in the existence of ‘physical probabilities’ may react to the above arguments by pointing to quantum theory, in which physical probabilities appear to express the most fundamental laws of physics. Therefore let us explain why this is another case of circular reasoning. We need to understand that present quantum theory uses entirely different standards of logic than does the rest of science. In biology or medicine, if we note that an effect E (for example, muscle contraction, phototropism, digestion of protein) does not occur unless a condition C (nerve impulse, light, pepsin) is present, it seems natural to infer that C is a necessary causative agent for E. Most of what is known in all fields of science has resulted from following up this kind of reasoning. But suppose that condition C does not always lead to effect E; what further inferences should a scientist draw? At this point, the reasoning formats of biology and quantum theory diverge sharply. In the biological sciences, one takes it for granted that in addition to C there must be some other causative factor F, not yet identified. One searches for it, tracking down the assumed cause by a process of elimination of possibilities that is sometimes extremely tedious. But persistence pays off; over and over again, medically important and intellectually impressive success has been achieved, the conjectured unknown causative factor being finally identified as a definite chemical compound. Most enzymes, vitamins, viruses, and other biologically active substances owe their discovery to this reasoning process. In quantum theory, one does not reason in this way. Consider, for example, the photoelectric effect (we shine light on a metal surface and find that electrons are ejected from it). The experimental fact is that the electrons do not appear unless light is present. So light must be a causative factor. But light does not always produce ejected electrons; even though the light from a unimode laser is present with absolutely steady amplitude, the electrons appear only at particular times that are not determined by any known parameters of the light. Why then do we not draw the obvious inference, that in addition to the light there must be a second causative factor, still unidentified, and the physicist’s job is to search for it? What is done in quantum theory today is just the opposite; when no cause is apparent one simply postulates that no cause exists – ergo, the laws of physics are indeterministic and can be expressed only in probability form. The central dogma is that the light determines not whether a photoelectron will appear, but only the probability that it will appear. The mathematical formalism of present quantum theory – incomplete in the same way that our present knowledge is incomplete – does not even provide the vocabulary in which one could ask a question about the real cause of an event. Biologists have a mechanistic picture of the world because, being trained to believe in causes, they continue to use the full power of their brains to search for them – and so they find them. Quantum physicists have only probability laws because for two generations we have been indoctrinated not to believe in causes – and so we have stopped looking for them. Indeed, any attempt to search for the causes of microphenomena is met with scorn and a charge of professional incompetence and ‘obsolete mechanistic materialism’. Therefore, to explain the indeterminacy in current quantum theory we need not suppose there is any indeterminacy in Nature; the mental attitude of quantum physicists is already sufficient to guarantee it.2 This point also needs to be stressed, because most people who have not studied quantum theory on the full technical level are incredulous when told that it does not concern itself with causes; and, indeed, it does not even recognize the notion of ‘physical reality’. The currently taught interpretation of the mathematics is due to Niels Bohr, who directed the Institute for Theoretical Physics in Copenhagen; therefore it has come to be called ‘The Copenhagen interpretation’. As Bohr stressed repeatedly in his writings and lectures, present quantum theory can answer only questions of the form: ‘If this experiment is performed, what are the possible results and their probabilities?’ It cannot, as a matter of principle, answer any question of the form: ‘What is really happening when ...?’ Again, the mathematical formalism of present quantum theory, like Orwellian newspeak, does not even provide the vocabulary in which one could ask such a question. These points have been explained in some detail by Jaynes (1986d, 1989, 1990a, 1992a). We suggest, then, that those who try to justify the concept of ‘physical probability’ by pointing to quantum theory are entrapped in circular reasoning, not basically different from that noted above with coins and bridge hands. Probabilities in present quantum theory express the incompleteness of human knowledge just as truly as did those in classical statistical mechanics; only its origin is different. In classical statistical mechanics, probability distributions represented our ignorance of the true microscopic coordinates – ignorance that was avoidable in principle but unavoidable in practice, but which did not prevent us from predicting reproducible phenomena, just because those phenomena are independent of the microscopic details. In current quantum theory, probabilities express our own ignorance due to our failure to search for the real causes of physical phenomena; and, worse, our failure even to think seriously about the problem. This ignorance may be unavoidable in practice, but in our present state of knowledge we do not know whether it is unavoidable in principle; the ‘central dogma’ simply asserts this, and draws the conclusion that belief in causes, and searching for them, is philosophically na¨ıve. If everybody accepted this and abided by it, no further advances in understanding of physical law would ever be made; indeed, no such advance has been made since the 1927 Solvay Congress in which this mentality became solidified into physics.3 But it seems to us that this attitude places a premium on stupidity; to lack the ingenuity to think of a rational physical explanation is to support the supernatural view. To many people, these ideas are almost impossible to comprehend because they are so radically different from what we have all been taught from childhood. Therefore, let us show how just the same situation could have happened in coin tossing, had classical physicists used the same standards of logic that are now used in quantum theory."

I believe this is the chap 10 you were referring to. Yes, this is exactly what Roberts argues. Reality is material and causally determined; any failure to reach this conclusion is simply a reflection of our ignorance.
 
You didn't read the section.

"Quantum physicists have only probability laws because for two generations we have been indoctrinated not to believe in causes – and so we have stopped looking for them. Indeed, any attempt to search for the causes of microphenomena is met with scorn and a charge of professional incompetence and ‘obsolete mechanistic materialism’. Therefore, to explain the indeterminacy in current quantum theory we need not suppose there is any indeterminacy in Nature; the mental attitude of quantum physicists is already sufficient to guarantee it.2 This point also needs to be stressed, because most people who have not studied quantum theory on the full technical level are incredulous when told that it does not concern itself with causes; and, indeed, it does not even recognize the notion of ‘physical reality’. The currently taught interpretation of the mathematics is due to Niels Bohr, who directed the Institute for Theoretical Physics in Copenhagen; therefore it has come to be called ‘The Copenhagen interpretation’. As Bohr stressed repeatedly in his writings and lectures, present quantum theory can answer only questions of the form: ‘If this experiment is performed, what are the possible results and their probabilities?’ It cannot, as a matter of principle, answer any question of the form: ‘What is really happening when ...?’ Again, the mathematical formalism of present quantum theory, like Orwellian newspeak, does not even provide the vocabulary in which one could ask such a question."

Did Thad Roberts say that??

;-)
Yes.
 
This?

"10.7 But what about quantum theory? Those who cling to a belief in the existence of ‘physical probabilities’ may react to the above arguments by pointing to quantum theory, in which physical probabilities appear to express the most fundamental laws of physics. Therefore let us explain why this is another case of circular reasoning. We need to understand that present quantum theory uses entirely different standards of logic than does the rest of science. In biology or medicine, if we note that an effect E (for example, muscle contraction, phototropism, digestion of protein) does not occur unless a condition C (nerve impulse, light, pepsin) is present, it seems natural to infer that C is a necessary causative agent for E. Most of what is known in all fields of science has resulted from following up this kind of reasoning. But suppose that condition C does not always lead to effect E; what further inferences should a scientist draw? At this point, the reasoning formats of biology and quantum theory diverge sharply. In the biological sciences, one takes it for granted that in addition to C there must be some other causative factor F, not yet identified. One searches for it, tracking down the assumed cause by a process of elimination of possibilities that is sometimes extremely tedious. But persistence pays off; over and over again, medically important and intellectually impressive success has been achieved, the conjectured unknown causative factor being finally identified as a definite chemical compound. Most enzymes, vitamins, viruses, and other biologically active substances owe their discovery to this reasoning process. In quantum theory, one does not reason in this way. Consider, for example, the photoelectric effect (we shine light on a metal surface and find that electrons are ejected from it). The experimental fact is that the electrons do not appear unless light is present. So light must be a causative factor. But light does not always produce ejected electrons; even though the light from a unimode laser is present with absolutely steady amplitude, the electrons appear only at particular times that are not determined by any known parameters of the light. Why then do we not draw the obvious inference, that in addition to the light there must be a second causative factor, still unidentified, and the physicist’s job is to search for it? What is done in quantum theory today is just the opposite; when no cause is apparent one simply postulates that no cause exists – ergo, the laws of physics are indeterministic and can be expressed only in probability form. The central dogma is that the light determines not whether a photoelectron will appear, but only the probability that it will appear. The mathematical formalism of present quantum theory – incomplete in the same way that our present knowledge is incomplete – does not even provide the vocabulary in which one could ask a question about the real cause of an event. Biologists have a mechanistic picture of the world because, being trained to believe in causes, they continue to use the full power of their brains to search for them – and so they find them. Quantum physicists have only probability laws because for two generations we have been indoctrinated not to believe in causes – and so we have stopped looking for them. Indeed, any attempt to search for the causes of microphenomena is met with scorn and a charge of professional incompetence and ‘obsolete mechanistic materialism’. Therefore, to explain the indeterminacy in current quantum theory we need not suppose there is any indeterminacy in Nature; the mental attitude of quantum physicists is already sufficient to guarantee it.2 This point also needs to be stressed, because most people who have not studied quantum theory on the full technical level are incredulous when told that it does not concern itself with causes; and, indeed, it does not even recognize the notion of ‘physical reality’. The currently taught interpretation of the mathematics is due to Niels Bohr, who directed the Institute for Theoretical Physics in Copenhagen; therefore it has come to be called ‘The Copenhagen interpretation’. As Bohr stressed repeatedly in his writings and lectures, present quantum theory can answer only questions of the form: ‘If this experiment is performed, what are the possible results and their probabilities?’ It cannot, as a matter of principle, answer any question of the form: ‘What is really happening when ...?’ Again, the mathematical formalism of present quantum theory, like Orwellian newspeak, does not even provide the vocabulary in which one could ask such a question. These points have been explained in some detail by Jaynes (1986d, 1989, 1990a, 1992a). We suggest, then, that those who try to justify the concept of ‘physical probability’ by pointing to quantum theory are entrapped in circular reasoning, not basically different from that noted above with coins and bridge hands. Probabilities in present quantum theory express the incompleteness of human knowledge just as truly as did those in classical statistical mechanics; only its origin is different. In classical statistical mechanics, probability distributions represented our ignorance of the true microscopic coordinates – ignorance that was avoidable in principle but unavoidable in practice, but which did not prevent us from predicting reproducible phenomena, just because those phenomena are independent of the microscopic details. In current quantum theory, probabilities express our own ignorance due to our failure to search for the real causes of physical phenomena; and, worse, our failure even to think seriously about the problem. This ignorance may be unavoidable in practice, but in our present state of knowledge we do not know whether it is unavoidable in principle; the ‘central dogma’ simply asserts this, and draws the conclusion that belief in causes, and searching for them, is philosophically na¨ıve. If everybody accepted this and abided by it, no further advances in understanding of physical law would ever be made; indeed, no such advance has been made since the 1927 Solvay Congress in which this mentality became solidified into physics.3 But it seems to us that this attitude places a premium on stupidity; to lack the ingenuity to think of a rational physical explanation is to support the supernatural view. To many people, these ideas are almost impossible to comprehend because they are so radically different from what we have all been taught from childhood. Therefore, let us show how just the same situation could have happened in coin tossing, had classical physicists used the same standards of logic that are now used in quantum theory."

I believe this is the chap 10 you were referring to. Yes, this is exactly what Roberts argues. Reality is material and causally determined; any failure to reach this conclusion is simply a reflection of our ignorance.

Did you read the part about coin tossing?
 

"This ignorance may be unavoidable in practice, but in our present state of knowledge we do not know whether it is unavoidable in principle; the ‘central dogma’ simply asserts this, and draws the conclusion that belief in causes, and searching for them, is philosophically naive."

That seems reasonable. And it differs from Roberts' assertion:

"Yes, this is exactly what Roberts argues. Reality is material and causally determined; any failure to reach this conclusion is simply a reflection of our ignorance"

 
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"This ignorance may be unavoidable in practice, but in our present state of knowledge we do not know whether it is unavoidable in principle; the ‘central dogma’ simply asserts this, and draws the conclusion that belief in causes, and searching for them, is philosophically naive."

That seems reasonable. And it differs from Roberts' assertion:

"Yes, this is exactly what Roberts argues. Reality is material and causally determined; any failure to reach this conclusion is simply a reflection of our ignorance."


From these posts on qm and the extracts from various commentators elsewhere, it's my impression that we reach an impasse when we attempt to understand the [or even 'an'] established relation between the lived reality we experience at this place and time in the evolution of the universe and the nature of 'being' in the quantum substrate. So I agree with your statement in this post:

... it was new to me. Specifically the part about indoctrination and Orwell. This and the replies on Quora etc make me leery of lay appropriation of QM.

There is also the question whether (and how far) we should follow -- i.e., can productively follow -- any of the inconsistent interpretations of qm still at issue among quantum physicists in our own search for an understanding of the nature of the reality we experience.
 
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I agree. I've started to learn a bit about QM ... I don't know how far I'll get or how helpful it will be. I'm open to suggestions on how and where to start!
 
"This ignorance may be unavoidable in practice, but in our present state of knowledge we do not know whether it is unavoidable in principle; the ‘central dogma’ simply asserts this, and draws the conclusion that belief in causes, and searching for them, is philosophically naive."

That seems reasonable. And it differs from Roberts' assertion:

"Yes, this is exactly what Roberts argues. Reality is material and causally determined; any failure to reach this conclusion is simply a reflection of our ignorance"
Yes. He is wise to note that we really don't know, but it's evident from the rest of what he writes that he thinks taking probability seriously as a fundamental feature of nature is "stupid."

Thad equally notes that we don't know and that QST is a theory.

Their positions are the same. Stop the wiggling semantics.

https://www.quora.com/What-is-a-quantum-mechanical-wavefunction
 
I didn't say the HP was restricted to perception; what I said is that perception, namely a naive realist interpretation of perception, leads to the presupposition underlying the HP. Namely that reality just is physical material.

What you're referring to is the 'natural attitude' as described by Husserl beyond which he and other phenomenologists disclose the reflection of which we are capable in leading to the recognition of the phenomenality of that which we experience in the world and the consequences of that understanding.
 
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