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Consciousness and the Paranormal — Part 9

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Are you gonna get in so much trouble ... ;-)

Not from me. ;) This arcane subject matter is surely interesting, but I'll have to watch it develop from the sidelines. I'm glad that you have pursued cybernetics and even built some small robots, and look forward to your discussion with Michael. My first question is what are "ANNs"?

"the machines which process the tiny rules into patterns of meaning for us mimic the same patterns of "on-off" and "yes/no" firings of neurons in our brains"

neurons fire based on combined input (analog) modeled by ANNs __ yes/no?
 
Not from me. ;) This arcane subject matter is surely interesting, but I'll have to watch it develop from the sidelines. I'm glad that you have pursued cybernetics and even built some small robots, and look forward to your discussion with Michael. My first question is what are "ANNs"?

"the machines which process the tiny rules into patterns of meaning for us mimic the same patterns of "on-off" and "yes/no" firings of neurons in our brains"

neurons fire based on combined input (analog) modeled by ANNs __ yes/no?

My first question is what are "ANNs"?

Artificial Neural Network(s) ... I don't know much ... basically neurons fire based on the sum of the inputs from other neurons - (that said, the neuron fires or doesn't fire, all or nothing, so that is a "binary" process ... but the summing of the inputs is an analog process) - the "threshold" at which the neuron fires can be changed so that the network "learns" by repetition ... ANNs have to be trained through feedback ... the thresholds across the network then get optimized, for example to recognize pictures of cats, and with each example of a cat that gets positive feedback, ANN gets better at recognizing cats - so an ANN starts off tabula rasa and learns a particular task by feedback. This also means that two ANNs that are equally good at recognizing cats are not necessarily (topographically? is this what I mean?) identical.

ANNs can be simulated by software on a digital computer. There are even apps available for download on a smartphone.

Note that Putnam in the talk above suggests that whether a human mind can be simulated by a Turing computer may not necessarily mean that the human mind is a Turing computer.
 
I say "artificial" because--using formal indication here-- (i.e. the "other") is "artificial" in the sense that the elements on your monitor right now are artificially providing you access to meaning that is largely irrelevant to the orderly existence of array of pixels in themselves.

I do wonder how a protoconscious or conscious animal/human can be understood to become 'the other' to itself on the same plane on which the animal experiences 'otherness' from itself in things it encounters in the world/environment.

"Otherness" becomes far more ramifying at the level of human recognition of other consciousnesses/persons/animals coexisting in the same environment/situation, motivating empathy and the development of ethical thought. How do cyberneticists account for this universal phenomenon which develops not only among humans but also among what we refer to as 'higher animals' ?

Also wonder about this:

"the elements on your monitor right now are artificially providing you access to meaning that is largely irrelevant to the orderly existence of array of pixels in themselves."

I'm inclined to say "so what?" How is the medium of communication of meaning in language via pixel arrays on my computer monitor different from -- and more significant than -- the ways in which I have access to meaning by virtue of road signs indicating sharp turns, curves, possible avalanches, etc., mounted along the mountain pass I am navigating in my car?
 
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@smcder

I finished the Toward Elegant Pan. Very helpful. We're there two papers?

Is Putnams approach accurately categorized at Strong Emergentism?

I still hold that the combination problem is analogically a problem for physicalists as well.

In fact, as a I believe @blowfish pointed out long ago, I think a central hard problem for consciousness studies is why/how do we feel (in the true sense of feel) separate from the world while by all constitutive accounts we are not.

I finished the Toward Elegant Pan. Very helpful. We're there two papers?


Two papers?

RE Putnam:Strong Emergentism ... I'm not sure.

Although strong emergence is logically possible, it is uncomfortably like magic. How does an irreducible but supervenient downward causal power arise, since by definition it cannot be due to the aggregation of the micro-level potentialities? Such causal powers would be quite unlike anything within our scientific ken. This not only indicates how they will discomfort reasonable forms of materialism. Their mysteriousness will only heighten the traditional worry that emergence entails illegitimately getting something from nothing. - Mark A. Bedeau

Putnam's Functional Isomorphism argues that the substrate isn't relevant ... as he notes in his talk, we could as easily be made of swiss cheese as soul matter, so that would seem to indicate that mind's properties are not due to the "aggregation of micro-level potentialities". Putnam is well known for changing his mind ... perhaps because it is a rare quality among philosophers ... so I would check the very latest available from him before drawing any conclusions. Putnam died last year at 89.

Hilary Putnam (1926-2016): A Philosopher of Science's Late-Life Return to His Native Judaism | The University of Chicago Divinity School
 
I do wonder how a protoconscious or conscious animal/human can be understood to become 'the other' to itself on the same plane on which the animal experiences 'otherness' from itself in things it encounters in the world/environment.

"Otherness" becomes far more ramifying at the level of human recognition of other consciousnesses/persons coexisting in the same environment/situation, motivating empathy and the development of ethical thought. How do cyberneticists account for this universal phenomenon which develops not only among humans but also among what we refer to as 'higher animals' ?

Also wonder about this:

"the elements on your monitor right now are artificially providing you access to meaning that is largely irrelevant to the orderly existence of array of pixels in themselves."

I'm inclined to say "so what?" How is the medium of communication of meaning in language via pixel arrays on my computer monitor different from -- and more significant than -- the ways in which I have access to meaning by virtue of road signs indicating sharp turns, curves, possible avalanches, etc., mounted along the mountain pass I am navigating in my car?
To answer the last question first...it is different in that the means "recede" into the background and become more "transparent"...e.g. you might stop at a stop sign and still question it's odd placement at an intersection...or it may remind you of how annoying stop signs are on a busy street and why they don't replace it with a signal light. But you are less likely to concern yourself with the elements making up a doorknob...or the metal from which the stop sign was constructed...or even less regarding the exact resolution of you current monitor or whether the colors you are looking at to read this message right now are CYMK or RGB.



Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 
My first question is what are "ANNs"?

Artificial Neural Network(s) ... I don't know much ... basically neurons fire based on the sum of the inputs from other neurons - (that said, the neuron fires or doesn't fire, all or nothing, so that is a "binary" process ... but the summing of the inputs is an analog process) - the "threshold" at which the neuron fires can be changed so that the network "learns" by repetition ... ANNs have to be trained through feedback ... the thresholds across the network then get optimized, for example to recognize pictures of cats, and with each example of a cat that gets positive feedback, ANN gets better at recognizing cats - so an ANN starts off tabula rasa and learns a particular task by feedback. This also means that two ANNs that are equally good at recognizing cats are not necessarily (topographically? is this what I mean?) identical.

ANNs can be simulated by software on a digital computer. There are even apps available for download on a smartphone.

Note that Putnam in the talk above suggests that whether a human mind can be simulated by a Turing computer may not necessarily mean that the human mind is a Turing computer.

Thanks for that clarification. If I understand what you say correctly, Michael's 'on-off' and 'yes/no' stimulus-response processes are similar between artificial neural nets and neural nets in human brains. Thus he reasons that artificial intelligences learn how to categorize things according to their typical appearances by generalizing/combining data (in this case images of cats fed into the computer) in the same way that we learn to categorize 'cats' from a variety of perceptions of cat-like beings. That makes sense and goes a short distance in supporting the argument that we humans are our neurons.

How much farther does cybernetics have to go to demonstrate that our neural synapses and nets can account for/explain the various ways in which various people respond to cats in general and to particular cats?
Case in point: my mother had a lifelong aversion to cats, but made great efforts to see my and my ex's first cat in typically (for her) generous and tolerant terms. As she explained her efforts: "love me, love my cat."

Here's an interesting set of images of famous artworks in which someone has substituted cats for other things or beings or filled in a space of non-being with the represented being of a cat (accounting for the serenity of the Mona Lisa's smile). As a person who loves and empathizes with cats I'm appalled by what's been done to cats in the Dali painting and slightly put off by the substitution of a cat for the woman in the Klimt painting {the cat does not look comfortable in the human male's embrace}. These images, like the original images they adapt, are creative works dependent on the imaginative property of human perception [on the part of both the creator and viewer of the image]. They are, in Stevens's words, "fictions that result from feeling." In both the original paintings and the adapted images we can 'read' to some extent the perspective and intent of the artist; in doing so, we must also recognize our own perspective on what the artist has produced, which might coincide with the artist's perspective or not. Bottom line: the 'world' we live in is shot through with diverse perspectives on 'what-is' as it appears to us phenomenally, emotionally, and intellectually. Can the brain's neurons and neural nets explain all of what we experience in the world, or even significant parts of it?

Hint Fashion Magazine

NOTE: GO BACK TWO CLICKS FOR THE DALI.
 
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To answer the last question first...it is different in that the means "recede" into the background and become more "transparent"...

Perhaps the 'means' of representation employed in the construction of computers seem 'more transparent' to you as a computer analyst. But the meanings transmitted by road signs seem far more 'transparent' to me. If such signs were not transparent in their communicated meanings they would not be employed by traffic safety agencies throughout the developed world. Well before our time, of course, pre-linguistic humans used other signs (markings on trees and on the ground) to communicate with and guide other beings like themselves in their movements into 'trackless depths of brute being' (as one of the phenomenologists referred to environments not yet occupied and known by, interpreted by, other early humans). That phenomenon in itself indicates senses, sensitivities, and concern for others that challenge neural S-R interpretations of the nature of consciousness.
 
@Constance

"How much farther does cybernetics have to go to demonstrate that our neural synapses and nets can account for/explain the various ways in which various people respond to cats in general and to particular cats?"

All the way ... with, in my opinion, most of that ground yet to be covered. (spell check aptly suggested "coveted" ;-) Dreyfus' Heidiggerean critique of AI stands.
 
The mechanical behavior of humans in the forced routines of industrial and post-industrial society, the ubiquity of computing and the appropriation of vocabulary around the once complex denotations of "intelligence" make for easy analogies. We have adapted by becoming more machine-like which then leads to easier application of the computer analogies of mind. If we do ultimately account for ourselves as machines we will, with Pogo, have only ourselves to blame.

I think of Zizsek's comparison of the madcap Drs. Hawkeye and Pierce with the robotic "Private Pyle" in Full Metal Jacket. Pierce and Hawkeye were good, human soldiers while Pyle was a de-humanized machine that ultimately destroyed himself and his DI programmer.

Human see, human do - our unique talent for mimicry means we can do an impression even of a machine if needs be and needs have been.

Reductionism has an urgency, a get down to it now, that I think comes from the flywheel of 300 years of "progress" and it stinks of oil and tastes of cigarettes and coffee - the natural history of all four being deeply intertwine. The dopamine and (let's face it) testosterone that fuel this "progress" cost us in terms of a more fully human way of relating to a world that we have largely challenged with one hemisphere tied behind our backs.
 
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The mechanical behavior of humans in the forced routines of industrial and post-industrial society, the ubiquity of computing and the appropriation of vocabulary around the once complex denotations of "intelligence" make for easy analogies. We have adapted by becoming more machine-like which then leads to easier application of the computer analogies of mind. If we do ultimately account for ourselves as machines we will, with Pogo, have only ourselves to blame.

I think of Zizsek's comparison of the madcap Drs. Hawkeye and Pierce with the robotic "Private Pyle" in Full Metal Jacket. Pierce and Hawkeye were good, human soldiers while Pyle was a de-humanized machine that ultimately destroyed himself and his DI programmer.

Human see, human do - our unique talent for mimicry means we can do an impression even of a machine if needs be and needs have been.

Reductionism has an urgency, a get down to it now, that I think comes from the flywheel of 300 years of "progress" and it stinks of oil and tastes of cigarettes and coffee - the natural history of all four being deeply intertwine. The dopamine and (let's face it) testosterone that fuel this "progress" cost us in terms of a more fully human way of relating to a world that we have largely challenged with one hemisphere tied behind our backs.

That is so well said that I'd like to quote it (anonymously if you prefer, let me know] on my FB page, if that's ok with you.


I've been reading a draft chapter from a book-in-progress, this chapter available online and entitled "Nietzsche and Whitehead on the Decadent Desire for Static Being" by J. Thomas Howe, and want to quote a footnote from it for your consideration:

"Whitehead suggests that the idea that mathematical entities are devoid of process is mistaken. Plato misunderstands mathematics when he identifies it with a realm of changeless eternity. Whitehead writes 'that mathematics is concerned with certain forms of process issuing into forms which are components for further process' (MT, 92). It should be clear that Whitehead’s critique of Greek mathematics is not directed at either mathematics’ general usefulness or even the ability of mathematics to illuminate various aspects of the nature of reality. Rather, it is directed at a specific view of mathematics. What Whitehead is leery of is what Ralph Norman calls mathematicism. Mathematicism involves the presupposition that knowledge is only that which is deductively certain. Whitehead’s interest in mathematics is, as Norman writes, in its 'aesthetic philosophical use – i.e., its use as the search for infinitely rich and diverse patterns of order, in its confidence that the conception and enjoyment of such coherence is an open-ended enterprise, that in fact the mind deployed has as its destiny whatever expansion of its initial systems may be required in the large encounter of looking and finding' (Ralph V. Norman, Jr., “Whitehead and ‘Mathematicism,’” in Alfred North Whitehead: Essays on His Philosophy, ed. George L. Kline [Englewood Cliffs, N. J.: Prentice-Hall, Inc., 1963[, p. 34)."

I no longer have the url link to the chapter I'm quoting. I came across notes and extracts from it in my Word files.
 
I think my comments are greatly misunderstood. Do not be so easily dismissive or cavalier in disparaging "the machine"--you'll find a weird kind of Cartesian chauvinism waiting at the bottom when you open your own nano robotic toolbox of embryonic development and find pure algorithmic processes waiting.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 
I think my comments are greatly misunderstood. Do not be so easily dismissive or cavalier in disparaging "the machine"--you'll find a weird kind of Cartesian chauvinism waiting at the bottom when you open your own nano robotic toolbox of embryonic development and find pure algorithmic processes waiting.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Addressed to whom?
 
I think my comments are greatly misunderstood. Do not be so easily dismissive or cavalier in disparaging "the machine"--you'll find a weird kind of Cartesian chauvinism waiting at the bottom when you open your own nano robotic toolbox of embryonic development and find pure algorithmic processes waiting.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

"--you'll find a weird kind of Cartesian chauvinism waiting at the bottom when you open your own nano robotic toolbox of embryonic development and find pure algorithmic processes waiting."

Interesting and welcome to the "purple prose" club! ;-) a sense of humor is all thats at the bottom of my toolbox ... I spray for nanobots monthly.

Can you write more clearly? What is the reference to nano robotic? Embryonic development? The use of "chauvinism" gives this a feel of emotional involvement, which I think is good.

For my part I think these are open questions. But there may actually be less at stake than we think or feel.

I recommend McGilchrist's "The Master and His Emissary".
 
"--you'll find a weird kind of Cartesian chauvinism waiting at the bottom when you open your own nano robotic toolbox of embryonic development and find pure algorithmic processes waiting."

Interesting and welcome to the "purple prose" club! ;-) a sense of humor is all thats at the bottom of my toolbox ... I spray for nanobots monthly.

Can you write more clearly? What is the reference to nano robotic? Embryonic development? The use of "chauvinism" gives this a feel of emotional involvement, which I think is good.

For my part I think these are open questions. But there may actually be less at stake than we think or feel.

I recommend McGilchrist's "The Master and His Emissary".


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Classic sci-fi story!

Meat

I'm inclined to say "so what"? Especially if you are saying that story is supposed to hold the same portent as Blackwood's "The Man Who Found Out".

Can we extend or analogize from Putnam's argument that (for what concerns us most) it doesn't matter if we're made of Swiss cheese ... can we thus say (for what concerns us most) it doesn't matter if we are machines? What "machines" means now is, after all, not what it meant to Leibniz or even Babbage - it's scarcely the same word. And ... just as Swiss Cheese might go to heaven, so to0 might all good machines.
 
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