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Consciousness and the Paranormal

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It's never a good sign when you start out not saying what you really mean. The word "occult" is just fine, and if that's what you really mean, then that's what you should use. There is some debate and discrepancy around what the word "paranormal" actually means, but the best evidence indicates that it is a dispassionate umbrella term for the general set of supernatural phenomena ( unable to be explained or understood in terms of scientific knowledge ), whereas the occult is a label for a subset of the paranormal that refers more to specific beliefs and practices around supernatural magic. The occult is also something that is more associated with action ( We study the paranormal but we practise the occult ).


Here we go again with that word "spiritual". It's the same word I've tried to nail down in thread after thread after thread, and now it's popped up again here, and I suspect it will remain just as slippery as it was before. The best I can figure from my past reading, along with all the videos and audios I've watched, or listened to over the years, is that the word "spiritual" has two distinct contexts. The first is indistinguishable from one's psychological state, with a particular emphasis on personality and feelings of well being, and the second is related to the belief in independent non-material living beings ( apparitions, ghosts, whatever ). So when someone uses the word "spiritual" they're automatically implying a belief in the supernatural and that our makeup as human beings constitutes some fuzzy combination of these two contexts, usually ( but not always ) to accommodate some religious belief. There appears to be no substantial reason to add this extra layer of mysticism onto the inquiry. Maybe we'll have better luck in this thread.

So my first question is: Why should we substitute the word "spiritual" for the phrase "psychological well being"? Is it just more convenient? Is it truly irrelevant if it also happens to imply that we're not only biological beings, but that our so-called "life essence" or "spirit" also floats around inside our bodies and drifts off into some assumed afterlife upon death, or maybe wanders around the universe while we're sleeping, or other such nonsense?

I consider myself to be an open-minded Christian, so here's my $.02.
The paranormal is anything that's not normal - literally. Stuff you don't usually see, hear, etc. You may live in a haunted house, for example, but seeing ghosts is not something the majority of people experience on a regular basis. That makes it paranormal.

I think "occult" could mean many things. A lot of people automatically think of sacrificing babies, I would guess. :-D It's a broad term. Personally, I'd put the Ouija board in that category, mainly because I don't think people really have the foggiest idea of what they're inviting into their home and that's a little dangerous.

-J
 
I consider myself to be an open-minded Christian, so here's my $.02.
The paranormal is anything that's not normal - literally. Stuff you don't usually see, hear, etc. You may live in a haunted house, for example, but seeing ghosts is not something the majority of people experience on a regular basis. That makes it paranormal.

Para - normal = beside of, beyond, so.....beyond the normal, or even 'side-by-side', in addition to.......

I think "occult" could mean many things. A lot of people automatically think of sacrificing babies, I would guess. :-D It's a broad term. Personally, I'd put the Ouija board in that category, mainly because I don't think people really have the foggiest idea of what they're inviting into their home and that's a little dangerous. -J

The problem with the word 'occult' is that it is a perfectly servicible word that simply means 'hidden' but has gotten smeared for the very reason you allude to - it has gotten twisted up in a phantasm concocted and perpectuated by ignorance. It's a smear. Occultism has nothing to do with child atrocities or 'satanic rituals' - these are fantasies and perversions generated by ignorance. Someone may have possibly co-opted the word to use in that way, but that is not the word's meaning at all. It is my understanding that there are certain streams of fundamentalist Christianity that have taken the term up and applied that kind of meaning to it. Very yucky.

In some ways it is akin to the problem with the term 'ufo' for some people.

Then there is the word 'gay - that has been used in such a particular way in recent decades that it's actual meaning of 'happy' cannot be relied upon.
 
I consider myself to be an open-minded Christian, so here's my $.02.
A good combination:)
I think "occult" could mean many things. A lot of people automatically think of sacrificing babies, I would guess. :-D It's a broad term. Personally, I'd put the Ouija board in that category, mainly because I don't think people really have the foggiest idea of what they're inviting into their home and that's a little dangerous.
Websters definition and the original meaning of occult:
Definition of OCCULT
transitive verb
: to shut off from view or exposure : cover, eclipse
I think the darker idea of occult comes from secret knowledge (i.e) Why is it kept secret?:(
The same debate is here and elsewhere in the UFO community. Are the entities that are dealing with us, good and helpful (love and light) or are they darker and demonic? The focus of some is the nuts and bolts of the craft and for others it is the mystery or the phenomena that cannot be explained by the physical effects.
 
Websters definition and the original meaning of occult:
Definition of OCCULT
transitive verb
: to shut off from view or exposure : cover, eclipse
I think the darker idea of occult comes from secret knowledge (i.e) Why is it kept secret?:(

Because of the nature of human consciousness. In a sense, the science of relativity is 'occult' (hidden) to anyone not savvy with higher math. Get savvy and one can sit down and follow the dots pretty well. Same with the spiritual (a word akin to 'ufo' - it has so many delineations and shades of meaning - though like 'ufo' it's overall meaning cruises at a particular altitude, enough so to be predictable). Just like the neophyte mathematician must 'initiate' themselves into higher math to have the ability to understand and experience the mathematical universe, so too the spiritual seeker must initiate themselves into higher realms of consciousness in order to understand and experience the subtle aspects of existence. That knowledge of the subtle realms is 'occult' - it is 'hidden' from the 'uninitiated'.

There's another layer: since in progressing into deeper and deeper aspects of the human and the world (via inner exercises - a kind of spiritual heavy-lifting, like body building, but on a spiritual level) one gains access to forces and powers, develops capacities, that are objectively real but are not in themselves endowed with 'goodness'. How to use such capacities and powers - for good or ill - is in the realm of the free will of the 'occultist', the 'magician', the 'initiate', the spiritual worker. Hence, there can be those who have achieved capacities that then use the capacities for ill - and those that do so, will have a reckoning - but until then the 'dark magician' can do much mischief if not outright evil. In fact, such decisions to work for the self will cause the door to the spiritual worlds to be shut and bring down consequences on the occultist.

The above is not as alien as it may sound - for the same is true for the scientist. The scientist works objectively and what s/he does with the knowledge s/he gains is in the realm of free will. Great good and great ill can be the chosen path - with the consequences.

Same for the spiritual seeker, the 'occultist' - except what is accessed is via the actual instrument of the human being - far more intimate and 'close to the bone'. Such knowledge - when accessed - has 'laws' that if not respected cause havoc.

A story: in occultism - but I will use the word 'esotericism' (less threatening and 'loaded') - there are exercises to train the Will. Now when you do these exercises under guidance you are doing them in conjunction with exercises pertaining to Love and Thought. The guide is monitoring. Were one to pursue just one exercise one would get a lop-sided development - as took place in the instance I will describe. There was a South American dictator whose cruelty was epic. His ability to inflict such savagery, at the scale achieved, was rooted in a powerful Will. The dictator was interviewed and asked where he felt he had gotten his exceptional Will that enabled him to press his agenda - which was a dark and evil agenda - against all odds with such force and consistency. His answer was that when in jail early in his career he was given an esoteric text of occult exercises (in common parlance we would call such self-development exercises, except these were called otherwise). He chose the exercise pertaining to the Will - ignoring the injunctions in the occult text against one-sided development. The result was that the man's Will became a force of great power - though his capacity for compassion and ethical thinking must have shriveled up in the face of the power he accessed with a plumped up Will. (Without purifying his emotional self/body - his Will became driven by his lower desires and appetites - albeit in a disciplined way). His choices wound up being for power - and his augmented Will sustained that urge to power to the point of barbarity. The dictator was very open about the fact that he ascribed his success to the Will exercise of this particular occult teacher whose book he had read.

Hence why it has been in the past that such exercises and such inner development has been 'hidden' so that such aberrations of development do not occur. Hence why it is that 'occult knowledge' - hidden knowledge - has been feared. Fact is, life can bring you to points of initiation. Life can teach compassion, or hone the intellect, or school the Will. At a certain point conscious development must be undertaken - and to do that one must access the 'hidden' pathways to the higher states of being. No one is barring the way - no one is burying books - it's not that kind of knowledge. Access is wholly dependent on the person - just as access to the mathematical universe is dependent on study.
 
Because of the nature of human consciousness. In a sense, the science of relativity is 'occult' (hidden) to anyone not savvy with higher math. Get savvy and one can sit down and follow the dots pretty well. Same with the spiritual (a word akin to 'ufo' - it has so many delineations and shades of meaning - though like 'ufo' it's overall meaning cruises at a particular altitude, enough so to be predictable). Just like the neophyte mathematician must 'initiate' themselves into higher math to have the ability to understand and experience the mathematical universe, so too the spiritual seeker must initiate themselves into higher realms of consciousness in order to understand and experience the subtle aspects of existence. That knowledge of the subtle realms is 'occult' - it is 'hidden' from the 'uninitiated'.

There's another layer: since in progressing into deeper and deeper aspects of the human and the world (via inner exercises - a kind of spiritual heavy-lifting, like body building, but on a spiritual level) one gains access to forces and powers, develops capacities, that are objectively real but are not in themselves endowed with 'goodness'. How to use such capacities and powers - for good or ill - is in the realm of the free will of the 'occultist', the 'magician', the 'initiate', the spiritual worker. Hence, there can be those who have achieved capacities that then use the capacities for ill - and those that do so, will have a reckoning - but until then the 'dark magician' can do much mischief if not outright evil. In fact, such decisions to work for the self will cause the door to the spiritual worlds to be shut and bring down consequences on the occultist.

The above is not as alien as it may sound - for the same is true for the scientist. The scientist works objectively and what s/he does with the knowledge s/he gains is in the realm of free will. Great good and great ill can be the chosen path - with the consequences.

Same for the spiritual seeker, the 'occultist' - except what is accessed is via the actual instrument of the human being - far more intimate and 'close to the bone'. Such knowledge - when accessed - has 'laws' that if not respected cause havoc.

A story: in occultism - but I will use the word 'esotericism' (less threatening and 'loaded') - there are exercises to train the Will. Now when you do these exercises under guidance you are doing them in conjunction with exercises pertaining to Love and Thought. The guide is monitoring. Were one to pursue just one exercise one would get a lop-sided development - as took place in the instance I will describe. There was a South American dictator whose cruelty was epic. His ability to inflict such savagery, at the scale achieved, was rooted in a powerful Will. The dictator was interviewed and asked where he felt he had gotten his exceptional Will that enabled him to press his agenda - which was a dark and evil agenda - against all odds with such force and consistency. His answer was that when in jail early in his career he was given an esoteric text of occult exercises (in common parlance we would call such self-development exercises, except these were called otherwise). He chose the exercise pertaining to the Will - ignoring the injunctions in the occult text against one-sided development. The result was that the man's Will became a force of great power - though his capacity for compassion and ethical thinking must have shriveled up in the face of the power he accessed with a plumped up Will. (Without purifying his emotional self/body - his Will became driven by his lower desires and appetites - albeit in a disciplined way). His choices wound up being for power - and his augmented Will sustained that urge to power to the point of barbarity. The dictator was very open about the fact that he ascribed his success to the Will exercise of this particular occult teacher whose book he had read.

Hence why it has been in the past that such exercises and such inner development has been 'hidden' so that such aberrations of development do not occur. Hence why it is that 'occult knowledge' - hidden knowledge - has been feared. Fact is, life can bring you to points of initiation. Life can teach compassion, or hone the intellect, or school the Will. At a certain point conscious development must be undertaken - and to do that one must access the 'hidden' pathways to the higher states of being. No one is barring the way - no one is burying books - it's not that kind of knowledge. Access is wholly dependent on the person - just as access to the mathematical universe is dependent on study.

excellent and the comparison to mathematics is very good ... making the shift in. thinking required for calculus and abstract algebra is comparable to my (limited) experience with the occult ... I'll also agree with your emphasis on balance in development and being in harmony with something greater than self if you pursue this ...



To truly listen to another – without reacting, without infatuation, without dismissal, without boredom – is an art and a grace. To take in what a person is saying and, in this, to receive them completely, is a blessing to them and to yourself.
 
Excellent and the comparison to mathematics is very good ... making the shift in thinking required for calculus and abstract algebra is comparable to my (limited) experience with the occult ... I'll also agree with your emphasis on balance in development and being in harmony with something greater than self if you pursue this ...

To truly listen to another – without reacting, without infatuation, without dismissal, without boredom – is an art and a grace. To take in what a person is saying and, in this, to receive them completely, is a blessing to them and to yourself.

Beautifully articulated. :) We (or I) need to be reminded - thank you.
 
a good starting point for someone interested in the occult or esoteric:

The Middle Pillar Exercise - By Israel Regardie



To truly listen to another – without reacting, without infatuation, without dismissal, without boredom – is an art and a grace. To take in what a person is saying and, in this, to receive them completely, is a blessing to them and to yourself.
 
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a good starting point for someone interested in the occult or esoteric:

The Middle Pillar Exercise - By Israel Regardie


To truly listen to another – without reacting, without infatuation, without dismissal, without boredom – is an art and a grace. To take in what a person is saying and, in this, to receive them completely, is a blessing to them and to yourself.

While I for sure agree with the sentiment expressed in the last two sentences of your post when it comes to conversation and exchanges of views , it's not quite the same thing when it comes to engaging in 'exercises'.

The YouTube video linked to: Not anything I would engage without a thorough understanding of the 'cosmology' (wrong word but the sense is there - 'world view' is too banal) behind it. This is the danger of bits and pieces. I recognize some of the visualization suggestions and why they are suggested - not endorsing the visualization, just saying I recognize them. The speaking/sound is what one wants to be very cautious with. Sound does create and one must be very clear what one is intending and what one may be invoking. Just my opinion. :cool:
 
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While I for sure agree with the sentiment expressed in the last two sentences of your post when it comes to conversation and exchanges of views , it's not quite the same thing when it comes to engaging in 'exercises'.

The YouTube video linked to: Not anything I would engage without a thorough understanding of the 'cosmology' (wrong word but the sense is there - 'world view' is too banal) behind it. This is the danger of bits and pieces. I recognize some of the visualization suggestions and why they are suggested - not endorsing the visualization, just saying I recognize them. The speaking/sound is what one wants to be very cautious with. Sound does create and one must be very clear what one is intending and what one may be invoking. Just my opinion. :cool:

I understand, but one has to start somewhere ... and practice can supply motivation to pursue information ... there are risks to even the most basic practices and you can't eliminate that - but there are also built-in protections: to get an effect requires concentration and intention, so there have to be some qualities present in the person to begin with. If someone just listens to the above link one time and thinks that's interesting - it's not going to be helpful ... or harmful.

But if someone engages in it and is aware of the effects they are receiving, then they already have certain qualities. This does need to be followed up with increased understanding ... but pursuit of that should follow naturally from the experience. We do live in a world where information is overwhelmingly available and disconnected from its context ... but I think people are adapting to that - and bits and pieces do come together - in the beginining, it's all you have.

... I compare this to martial arts, traditional forms use what appears to be pointless exercises in tradition and ritual - there are many meanings in these actions, but one of them is to be sure the person has the right motivations and desire and patience, sometimes the person is transformed before they ever learn any real technique - newer forms that I worked with, like Krav Maga, dispensed with this and got right to the information on how to defend yourself but also how to hurt others - as a result we didn't always attract people who had the right motivations for self defense.

This exercise is rooted in the Hebrew names of God and focuses these intonations with visualization on the chakras: crown, throat, heart, pelvic area (and feet) - these points are a common focus of meditation across many traditions including Jewish and Christian and are points in the body that we all have familiarity with, even if we haven't formally been taught anything - these are areas where we have pain or experience pleasure or have "gut feelings" or where we feel strong or weak, where we find our voice - so for many people, paying attention to these areas in meditation comes naturally ... once the chakras are established, the meditation works on circulating these energies and then closes by withdrawing them and ends with a recitation of the Lord's Prayer. This may turn people off and that's another protection.

Breath awareness, body awareness and chakra exercises are basic forms of meditation that cut across I think almost all traditions and information on them is widely available and they are generally considered safe ... however, if a person has instabilities, even breath meditation may cause issues. But, by definition, there is nothing safe for someone with instabilities. It's like trying to recommend a safe path for someone to walk on who has an inherent difficulty keeping their balance.
 
Regardie on the exercise, tying it in not only to tradition, but also giving warning (part of the purpose of which is to protect the tradition by scaring people off of course - these kinds of warnings are common also in the martial arts, in the form of stories you hear over and over in every dojo but which you never actually see yourself ... they should not be disregarded, however)

... but also note the emphasis on the then very contemporary art of (psychological) analysis ... a modern form of the old injunction to know thyself - but also one that was never widely available because it was expensive and time consuming and had a pre-requisite of a certain kind of education and verbal abilities on the part of the patient ... inserting this specific requirement also has a kind of class effect on who learns magic and who the teacher of magic has to deal with ...

magic, like martial arts, is a practical matter - and magic has been available historically not only to the literate classes, knowledge is handed down orally of course, but is also created anew by those who move into practice with an alert intrepidity ...

"It will be realized how necessary analysis is as a preliminary rou tine to magic. The student should have arrived at a fair understand ing of himself, his motives, and the mechanism of his mind, and integrated himself more or less thoroughly so that no dissociation or serious neurosis exists within the psyche. For the presence of a powerful complex of associated ideas in the unconscious, or a marked dissociation splitting off one part of the psyche from the other, will have the effect of short-circuiting the flow of energy generated or released by the Middle Pillar. An explosion in the form of a complete nervous breakdown, or even of the destruction of mental stability, will be a likely result. Many instances have been known of unprepared students contracting fatal physical illnesses through attempting work of this nature, though this is more true where Eastern exercises have been unwisely attempted. Some of these unfortunates, when the dis sociation was rendered complete, have succumbed to chronic melancholia or taken their own lives. These warnings are not intended to be portentous or terrifying, but only to impress upon the student the solemnity of these undertakings, a journey of self-conquest than which nothing could compare in importance or seriousness."

The Middle Pillar Exercise - By Israel Regardie
 
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Breath awareness, body awareness and chakra exercises are basic forms of meditation that cut across I think almost all traditions and information on them is widely available and they are generally considered safe ... however, if a person has instabilities, even breath meditation may cause issues. But, by definition, there is nothing safe for someone with instabilities. It's like trying to recommend a safe path for someone to walk on who has an inherent difficulty keeping their balance.

Just so - and well said.

Regardie on the exercise, tying it in not only to tradition, but also giving warning (part of the purpose of which is to protect the tradition by scaring people off of course - these kinds of warnings are common also in the martial arts, in the form of stories you hear over and over in every dojo but which you never actually see yourself ... they should not be disregarded, however)

I have seen it for myself. In fact, I have seen those of decades standing, who have spent their life 'in practice' in a manner of speaking, who get caught in the most unexpected trip-ups, and go down unfortunate by-ways. Groundedness! It's also an issue of who gets drawn to such things - why and how and when in one's life - as you mention.

Fact is - the journey brings love and joy and angels are attending, but......

... but also note the emphasis on the then very contemporary art of (psychological) analysis ... a modern form of the old injunction to know thyself - but also one that was never widely available because it was expensive and time consuming and had a pre-requisite of a certain kind of education and verbal abilities on the part of the patient ... inserting this specific requirement also has a kind of class effect on who learns magic and who the teacher of magic has to deal with ...

Psychoanalysis is not necessarily a good thing. One goes down that rabbit-hole and one may never emerge - at least in this life. Better get gripped by Gurdjieff - at least the intellectual prison is understood as something that must be 'gone through' to the other side - beyond mind. We must command the intellect - not be ruled by it.

magic, like martial arts, is a practical matter - and magic has been available historically not only to the literate classes, knowledge is handed down orally of course, but is also created anew by those who move into practice with an alert intrepidity ...

Yes.....

"It will be realized how necessary analysis is as a preliminary routine to magic. The student should have arrived at a fair understanding of himself, his motives, and the mechanism of his mind, and integrated himself more or less thoroughly so that no dissociation or serious neurosis exists within the psyche. For the presence of a powerful complex of associated ideas in the unconscious, or a marked dissociation splitting off one part of the psyche from the other, will have the effect of short-circuiting the flow of energy generated or released by the Middle Pillar. An explosion in the form of a complete nervous breakdown, or even of the destruction of mental stability, will be a likely result. Many instances have been known of unprepared students contracting fatal physical illnesses through attempting work of this nature, though this is more true where Eastern exercises have been unwisely attempted. Some of these unfortunates, when the dissociation was rendered complete, have succumbed to chronic melancholia or taken their own lives. These warnings are not intended to be portentous or terrifying, but only to impress upon the student the solemnity of these undertakings, a journey of self-conquest than which nothing could compare in importance or seriousness."

The Middle Pillar Exercise - By Israel Regardie

A good quote. Just so. Totally agree - though I am not one to recommend 'analysis' as in Freud. It is why there is enormous responsibility connected to dispensing the exercises. But we must also trust the spiritual world. Observation of the world - and oneself - people - human nature. Take an interest - loving interest. So it goes - all the protections. The Christ is the most important protection - must be said. The Christ - The Turning Point of Time. The Initiator we meet at the Threshold of 'becoming more than Man.'
 
Most of what I know of the occult comes from the Christian perspective. And that perspective is, frankly, that the entities that occult practitioners interact with are demons.

The topic is especially relevant to this thread because whether these "spirit" entities are good, evil, or neutral, what both Christians and Occultists agree on is that they are real. Thus, these entities represent a non-human intelligence/consciousness. That's fascinating.

The recent paracast episode with Loyd Auerbach was excellent. When asked, he shared his opinion that ghosts where not demons and that they may be disembodied human consciousnesses.

I can't speak for Christians, but I believe the Christian interpretation would be that such "ghosts" were actually demons attempting to fool humans. Demons would presumably know things about a deceased person, their past, and their family.

For my own part, I do believe there are entities that exist and that do seek to interact with humans. I think these entities are understood differently and mythologized differently in various cultures and time periods.

So I do think that Christians, Occultists, and parapsychologists are speaking about and interacting with the same/similar entities, but I'm not search any group conceptualizes them correctly.

How these entities may related to phenomena such as machine elves and DMT or UFO craft and abductions/visitations I don't know.

I do think "spirits" represent a non-human intelligence, but their motives and nature are obscure, at least to me.
 
Most of what I know of the occult comes from the Christian perspective. And that perspective is, frankly, that the entities that occult practitioners interact with are demons.

And that is the smear. That is the popularization. That is what one sees in films pandering to the lowest common denominator. More mischief has been done by films purporting to be about the 'occult' than anything else I know of. Especially the fomenting of fear - fear above all.

There is a lot in what you have just said that is simply untrue and a misrepresentation, mainly stemming from misunderstanding or outright fabrication. What you have stated is not 'the Christian perspective' - rather, it is a perspective being put forth by certain Christian sects. It is a perspective that is not Christian at all because the esoteric is steeped in the Christ.

The topic is especially relevant to this thread because whether these "spirit" entities are good, evil, or neutral, what both Christians and Occultists agree on is that they are real. Thus, these entities represent a non-human intelligence/consciousness. That's fascinating.

A lot knotted up there. Firstly, esotericists/occultists are Christians in the sense that the Christ Event is recognized as a significant event in human evolution and the Christ Being - and that Being's Love - is key to everything.

You are assuming one type of 'spirit'. Fact is esotericism (less scary a word than occultism which has gotten loaded with baggage) - is an exact science. Ghosts or those so-called 'spirits' generally referred to in the popular imagination are not independent beings. Sometimes they are cast-off remnants, or 'echoes' in the ethers - but more often they are a function of the person who is seeing them, hearing them or sensing them.

The recent paracast episode with Loyd Auerbach was excellent. When asked, he shared his opinion that ghosts were not demons and that they may be disembodied human consciousnesses.

Here is where inner capacity is necessary to make an informed judgement. Plus there are too many words being thrown around - what is a demon? what is a ghost? what is a 'disembodied human consciousnesses'? It's all squished together and there is no clarity regarding what is actually being referenced.

I can't speak for Christians, but I believe the Christian interpretation would be that such "ghosts" were actually demons attempting to fool humans. Demons would presumably know things about a deceased person, their past, and their family.

There is no Christian interpretation - only the interpretation of certain people who insist that their thoughts (and fears, and prejudices, and ignorance) must hold sway. They are Right and Correct Above Everyone Else. The idea of a demon as you are using the term would cease to have any power with some level of self-knowledge. Such 'demons' are merely the worst imaginings from out the sub-conscious of a person. Such 'demons' are objectified by self by the psyche, they have no independent life and can be mastered with a strong mind and will - and heart.

For my own part, I do believe there are entities that exist and that do seek to interact with humans. I think these entities are understood differently and mythologized differently in various cultures and time periods.

Yes.

So I do think that Christians, Occultists, and parapsychologists are speaking about and interacting with the same/similar entities, but I'm not search any group conceptualizes them correctly.

I would disagree.

How these entities may relate to phenomena such as machine elves and DMT or UFO craft and abductions/visitations I don't know.

One must be able to distinguish the real from the unreal, the true from the untrue.

I do think "spirits" represent a non-human intelligence, but their motives and nature are obscure, at least to me.

Would have to know exactly what you mean by 'spirits'. But I do acknowledge that there are many beings we cannot perceive with our five physical senses that exist around us. Angels for one, or called Angels in the western stream - called Devas in the eastern stream.
 
@Tyger

"The Christ is the most important protection - must be said. The Christ - The Turning Point of Time. The Initiator we meet at the Threshold of 'becoming more than Man."

thanks again for bringing the Steiner materials in and McDermott ... I hope to learn more about Steiners understanding of Christ



To truly listen to another – without reacting, without infatuation, without dismissal, without boredom – is an art and a grace. To take in what a person is saying and, in this, to receive them completely, is a blessing to them and to yourself.
 
You are assuming one type of 'spirit'. Fact is esotericism (less scary a word than occultism which has gotten loaded with baggage) - is an exact science. Ghosts or those so-called 'spirits' generally referred to in the popular imagination are not independent beings. Sometimes they are cast-off remnants, or 'echoes' in the ethers - but more often they are a function of the person who is seeing them, hearing them or sensing them. ...

But I do acknowledge that there are many beings we cannot perceive with our five physical senses that exist around us. Angels for one, or called Angels in the western stream - called Devas in the eastern stream.
From where do you get your conception of the nature/typology of these entities? A teacher, a school of thought, personal experience, a book, etc.? I'm very curious. :)

Re: Christianty: I am very interested in Steiner's (and your) apparent non-mainstream-Christianity interest in Jesus Christ.

I am aware that Christianty has roots in many traditions not least of which is the Pagan Mystery Religions. Current mainstream Christian branches downplay or deny these influences.
 
From where do you get your conception of the nature/typology of these entities? A teacher, a school of thought, personal experience, a book, etc.? I'm very curious. :)

Re: Christianty: I am very interested in Steiner's (and your) apparent non-mainstream-Christianity interest in Jesus Christ.

I am aware that Christianty has roots in many traditions not least of which is the Pagan Mystery Religions. Current mainstream Christian branches downplay or deny these influences.

A lot in your post - until I answer, here's Robert McDermott - a lot covered here within a certain lexicon......


and.......

Wild Bill’s Legacy of Love
LINK: Wild Bill’s Legacy of Love | Triumph of the Spirit
 
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From where do you get your conception of the nature/typology of these entities? A teacher, a school of thought, personal experience, a book, etc.? I'm very curious. :)

Re: Christianty: I am very interested in Steiner's (and your) apparent non-mainstream-Christianity interest in Jesus Christ.

I am aware that Christianty has roots in many traditions not least of which is the Pagan Mystery Religions. Current mainstream Christian branches downplay or deny these influences.

I had started another post, but it's in draft mode ... some of the more liberal protestant churches, such as Methodism and the Epsicopal church have embraced these influences ... The Jesus Seminar (Marcus Borg, Bishop John Shelby Spong, the writings on the Gnostic gospels by Elaine Pagels ... etc) - at the Episcopal church, the Vicar participated in a Sunday evening group that opened with readings from the Tao Ching and also in a study group on the The DaVinci Code. This is in a small town in Arkansas - it is a college town, but the Episcopal church and Methodist, are generally well educated and well off congregations and this kind of interest isn't unusual.

In addition, the Quaker and Unitarian Universalit churches have a long history of intellectual open-mindedness. With the rise of new "non-denominational" churches to serve certain populations (LGBTQ for example) - so I think there is a substantial portion of churches that go some way toward embracing these topics.
 
A lot in your post - until I answer, here's Robert McDermott - a lot covered here within a certain lexicon......


and.......

Wild Bill’s Legacy of Love
LINK: Wild Bill’s Legacy of Love | Triumph of the Spirit

I'd never heard of Wild Bill thanks for sharing - I've read some on the Holocaust: "Conscience and Courage" and visited Dachau in Germany - one of only two experiences I've had of a real presence of evil attached to a place.




To truly listen to another – without reacting, without infatuation, without dismissal, without boredom – is an art and a grace. To take in what a person is saying and, in this, to receive them completely, is a blessing to them and to yourself.
 
From where do you get your conception of the nature/typology of these entities? A teacher, a school of thought, personal experience, a book, etc.? I'm very curious. :)

A lifetime of reading and search. I am not a proselytizer - not by a long shot. This is not about belief. Some are better guides than others - and I always found Steiner a good guide, but even he said not to believe anything he said - do the inner work, find out for oneself. Its' not about a guru - the Western Path is pre-eminently the path of freedom.

Re: Christianty: I am very interested in Steiner's (and your) apparent non-mainstream-Christianity interest in Jesus Christ.

Christianity As Mystical Fact and the Mysteries of Antiquity (CW 8)

I am aware that Christianty has roots in many traditions not least of which is the Pagan Mystery Religions. Current mainstream Christian branches downplay or deny these influences.

The history of Christianity is a fascinating one. What we know of it as a Church is basically the remnant of Roman bureaucracy. The Church as it existed, and what it 'thought', has more to do with Constantine - and particularly his mother, than the reality of what took place 2 thousand years ago. One has to go into the history to fully get the mash-up of ideas that occurred.

Amazon Blurb: "Christianity As Mystical Fact was compiled from a series of lectures Rudolf Steiner gave in 1902. It was an attempt to explain the mystical qualities of Christianity and it's evolution from pre-Christian times to the Resurrection.

The book has become one of Steiner's most well known works and it gives us a deeper and richer understanding of the esoteric roots and meaning of Christianity.

Steiner, not satisfied with scratching the surface of traditional Christianity, sought to unearth it's mysteries, and his words are reminiscent of a latter day near-death experiencer when he writes in chapter 2: "He acknowledges the existence of the gods, but knows that the ordinary ideas about them do not solve the great problems of existence. He seeks a wisdom, which is jealously guarded by a community of priest-sages. His aspiring soul seeks a refuge in this community. If he is found by the sages to be sufficiently prepared, he is led up by them, step by step, to higher knowledge, in places hidden from the eyes of outward observers. What then happens to him is concealed from the uninitiated. He seems for a time to be entirely removed from earthly life and to be transported into a hidden world. When he reappears in the light of day a different, quite transformed person is before us. We see a man who cannot find words sublime enough to express the momentous experience through which he has passed. Not merely metaphorically but in a most real sense does he seem to have gone through the gate of death and to have awakened to a new and higher life. He is, moreover, quite certain that no one who has not had a similar experience can understand his words."

Christianity as Mystical Fact is required reading for anyone interested in Christian Mysticism."
 
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