Consciousness and the Paranormal

[Todesangst]

Can't let it pass because these are lines from one of my favorite poems - Ode by A. O'Shaughnessy. The bolded parts are often quoted -

LINK: Ode (O'Shaughnessy) - Wikisource, the free online library
.

Ah cool, thanks for linking. I knew it was from something (like the William Allingham fairies poem), but never got around to seeking it. The experience itself felt like It was contained within some sort of bizarre candy shop/educational center overseen by weird trickster persona(s), with occasional elfin helpers. Hence the Wonka factory metaphor.

 

[Tyger]

The strongest drug that exists for a human is another human being. - The Mind Unleashed

 

[smcder]

The strongest drug that exists for a human is another human being. - The Mind Unleashed

Tyger, what is the reference for that quote?

 

[Tyger]

Tyger, what is the reference for that quote?

LINK: The Mind Unleashed | Facebook

 

[smcder]

his final interviews were very interesting and somber, I think he had another with art bell about the surgical procedures he was undergoing at the time.
It's defintily an experience that I don't see how other westerners could so casually indulge in more than a handful of times off and on, psychonauts and such, as I dont see it as recreational; more as an Eziekiel/Close Encounter experience that can be had on the fly, and intensely rattling. I do think it makes sense that most global indigenous populations use it regularly and are fairly comfortable in-and-out of those environments, as their in tuned to the biosphere and bodily present than most industrial-borne westerners.

That's why I've always been curious about the claim that meditation can reproduce a Tryptamine experience/hallucination. Tryptamine states seem to have the opposite effect of meditation from my observations. Theyre very crystalline and kind of specific, kind of like mescaline will have a certain specific effect, or salvia will, etc. I guess I've just been kind of skeptical of that assertion (but of course, I haven't meditated as rigurously and long-term as they have, and I've even heard of alleged "dangers" of intensive meditation/mindfullness!)
I don't know if anyone here has tried Tryptamines, but that's probably the only convincing 'otherworldy' type experience i can relate to personally, besides poltergeists, ufos (which I've observed to happen in tandem with entheogeon experimentation, though rarely)

As for Tyger's Ahriman-internet idea, I was reminded of this wacky rant:

I'll see if I can find a reference on meditation vs DMT experiences (I think the it referred to psolocybin mushrooms) ... I've certainly experienced strange imagery and extremely unpleasant feelings in meditation, CEVs that seem to match the description of threshold psychedelic experiences ... momentary experiences of incredibly clear light with imagery that is - "more real than real" - and certainly in sharper focus than real, every day imagery is to me ... one time I experienced an extremely bright light - I could see nothing, an ocean or see of light and this experience of "complete light" was as terrifying as complete darkness and strangely, I had never thought that would be the case - no difference in complete light and complete dark, because it's absolute, you can only see because of the presence of light and dark. The experience was also exhilirating and of very brief duration.

At this time I don't consider psychedelics as an option for me, because if bad trips on psychedelics are potentially worse than the above experiences I have had (and worse than experiences I have had when in depressed or mixed states of mood) or even worse than nightmares I've had ... I would need some tremendous justification for chancing such an experience, or maybe a professional support team on standby (as in Strassman's experiments).

 

[Soupie]

As for the external/internal paradigm and where these experiences lie within, I guess I dont know where it ends/begins. These are all sort of highly experiential phenomena, based on perception. ...

So I guess that's a chicken-egg scenario for you to decide. It definitely appears that theres a kind of virtual reality in our heads that we'd call the imagination, and it is at least populated by uncanny constructs and personalities and creatures that seem to react to thoughts.

Graham Handcock is an advocate for DMT/Ayahausca and he insists that the brain /= the mind/self.

The piece about reality being virtual in our minds is fascinating. McKenna has described this as well: he's said during a DMT experience, the self is there unchanged but "reality" is completely replaced.

That's pretty remarkable and I can see that causing one to question which is more fundamental: Our "normal" reality or the mind/self?

I'm curiously watching the development of the Occulus Rift VR system. I've always been amazed at how easily/naturally humans adapt to virtual/digital life. I wonder if some people will live most of their adult lives in VR some day. One could argue that we already do! Are we really in a "spiritual" Matrix?

 

[smcder]

"One could argue that we already do!"

do you mean time spent online? if you are absorbed in a book, a radio program or a movie is that VR or do we need more feedback to call it VR?

by spiritual matrix do you mean we are already in a simulation? in Buddhism there is a lot if discussion about direct pointing to reality and about delusion. what would the Buddha do if he were in the Matrix? the "de conditioning effect of meditation and psychedelics is similar (I have read) and on my experience it is like peeling away layers if reality - for a while I woke up each day one layer down ... now things seem pretty ordinary

 

[smcder]

I also heartily recommend the following article by the British philosopher Roger Scruton as an illuminating supplement to the Zahavi paper above. It's entitled "Scientism in the Arts and Humanities" and makes vivid what is at stake in the contemporary spell that scientistic reductionism has cast in academic disciplines that science (including information science) cannot begin to address.

Scientism in the Arts and Humanities - The New Atlantis

"But memetics possesses the very fault for which it purports to be a remedy: it is a spell with which the scientistic mind seeks to conjure away the things that pose a threat to it — which is also how we should view scientism in general. Scientism involves the use of scientific forms and categories in order to give the appearance of science to unscientific ways of thinking. It is a form of magic, a bid to reassemble the complex matter of human life, at the magician’s command, in a shape over which he can exert control. It is an attempt to subdue what it does not understand.

Surely human beings can do better than this — by the pursuit of genuine scientific explanation on the one hand, and by the study of high culture on the other. A culture does not comprise works of art only, nor is it directed solely to aesthetic interests. It is the sphere of intrinsically interesting artifacts, linked by the faculty of judgment to our aspirations and ideals. We appreciate works of art, arguments, works of history and literature, manners, dress, jokes, and forms of behavior. And all these things are shaped through judgment. But what kind of judgment, and to what does that judgment lead?

It is my belief that culture in this sense, which stems from the “I” perspective that is the root of the human condition, points always towards the transcendental — the point on the edge of space and time, which is the subjectivity of the world. And when we lose our sense of that thing, and of its eternal, tranquil watchfulness, all human life is cast into shadow. We approach the point at which even the St. Matthew Passion and the Rondanini Pietà have nothing more to say to us than a shark in formaldehyde. That is the direction we have taken. But it is a direction of drift, a refusal to adopt the posture that is inherent in the human condition, in which we strive to see events from outside and as a whole, as they are in the eyes of God."

this "magic" is compelling - its a current definition of masculinity ... the way for some to be a man (as powerful a force as ever) the man of action gave way to the man of reason - from John Wayne it was a short distance to John Agar.

the "I" perspective as the root of the human condition and transcendence available on two pathways, East and West - then divide the West into God as transcendence, the ultimate relation being mystical union or life after death in Heaven ... or seeing events from a Gods-eye view - this is the western esoteric tradition lately taken up by science ...

No God, know God or be God ...
are there any other options?

 

[smcder]

Zeitgeist Films : Examined Life

"don't forget that Heidegger gave up philosophy for thinking ..." - Asa Taylor


... you get to see working philosophers on a walk with the filmmaker ... watch it sound on / then sound off ... you see them walking (the source of much great philosophy) in everyday circumstance not the podium or their offices ... I think the ideas have them, they don't have the ideas - it's even in their bodies ... they look like their philosophies a little bit ... and some are very ordinary in their intelligence - very intelligent, but ordinary, methodical - not eccentric ... not true of Zizek though who appears to be a cross between Socrates and Klaus Kinski

 

[smcder]

Of the three methods of "expanding" consciousness: hallucinogens, meditation, and "exercises," I think it could be argued that humans have been utilizing hallucinogens the longest.

That doesn't make it superior per se, but it is interesting to note.

What are "exercises"?


Altered states of consciousness that could qualify as expanded can occur:

While daydreaming, while in deep thought, Just before sleep, in dreams, just before full wakefulness - with sleep deprivation, starvation, thirst, pain, fever, illness of many kinds ... "Mental illness" ... Spiritual rapture that may be spontaneous or a result of fear or grief or great joy ... In fact, we probably spend more time in "altered states" of consciousness ... In terms of purposefully altering consciousness I'd say that's been going on with and without substances from the get go ... I don't think either is privileged - benefits and drawbacks to both. Some can move at will into profoundly altered states, some require chemical assistance - our culture seems to allow altered states in television, spectator sports and athletes in flow, alcohol intoxication and religious ecstasy in some subcultures - ... Probably some other states ... but isn't it hostile to psychedelics and the pursuit of altered states for their own sake? A history here of politics ... Even though much of the pop imagery in movies and video games is psychedelic ... And many innovators in technology claim inspiration from mind altering substances ... Sagan and Jobs many others.

 

[Soupie]

"One could argue that we already do!"

do you mean time spent online? if you are absorbed in a book, a radio program or a movie is that VR or do we need more feedback to call it VR?

by spiritual matrix do you mean we are already in a simulation?

The latter.

If the mind/self is eternal/fundamental as some believe, and our current physical reality only a temporary facade, then one could consider it matrix-like. It is a "virtual" reality that will eventually be shed to reveal the true, spiritual reality.

@Tyger @smcder I've been reading Steiner thoughts on the Luciferian and Christ-Impulse influences on mankind.

Steiner often mentions things such as our "spiritual nature." What is he referring to? Can this spiritual nature be understood as simply love, kindness, and altruism? Is that our "spiritual" nature? Does spiritual simply refer to our self-control and behavior? Our non-animal qualities?

 

[smcder]

The latter.

If the mind/self is eternal/fundamental as some believe, and our current physical reality only a temporary facade, then one could consider it matrix-like. It is a "virtual" reality that will eventually be shed to reveal the true, spiritual reality.

@Tyger @smcder I've been reading Steiner thoughts on the Luciferian and Christ-Impulse influences on mankind.

Steiner often mentions things such as our "spiritual nature." What is he referring to? Can this spiritual nature be understood as simply love, kindness, and altruism? Is that our "spiritual" nature? Does spiritual simply refer to our self-control and behavior? Our non-animal qualities?

What specifically are you reading? Link?

Chapter I: The Essential Nature of Man

 

[smcder]

Essential reading for Steiner:

(@Tyger?)

Rudolf Steiner Archive: Basic Books

 

[Soupie]

That is the direction we have taken. But it is a direction of drift, a refusal to adopt the posture that is inherent in the human condition, in which we strive to see events from outside and as a whole, as they are in the eyes of God."

the "I" perspective as the root of the human condition and transcendence available on two pathways, East and West - then divide the West into God as transcendence, the ultimate relation being mystical union or life after death in Heaven ... or seeing events from a Gods-eye view - this is the western esoteric tradition lately taken up by science ...

No God, know God or be God ...
are there any other options?

Excellent post, @smcder

One theme common to religious, occult, and now science seems — as you say — to connect with or become god-like in power and knowledge. Along with that though, is this idea of becoming "better" beings. The higher self. Shedding our sinful desires and behaviors. Becoming more "spiritual." The thing with science/materialism is that it shares the former pursuit but not the latter.

Years ago I was reading a book on science from a "Christian" perspective. Throughout I struggled with the idea of an omniscient, omnipresent God but an imperfect, fallen world filled with pain and suffering and evil — that is, behaviors done for the sole purpose of causing pain and suffering.

I then had what I considered an epiphany that terms like god, holy, sin, spiritual, supernatural, paranatural, demon, angel, etc. were labels whose definitions created false boundaries. That is, these things might exist, but if they do, they do so in the same reality as us, not a "dual" reality.

I believe that elves, faeries, demons, and aliens are all one and the same. Satan is referred to as the prince of the power of the air.

Although I haven't had any experiences which I would consider super- or para-natural, I do wonder if there isn't some type of on-going struggle between non-human entities for control of Earth and its inhabitants.

It all sounds rather fanciful and looney, but I think there is enough circumstantial evidence that there are non-human intelligences that have been interacting with us throughout history albeit in a very convoluted, unclear way.

 

[Soupie]

Consciousness on-off switch discovered deep in brain - life - 02 July 2014 - New Scientist

ONE moment you're conscious, the next you're not. For the first time, researchers have switched off consciousness by electrically stimulating a single brain area.

Scientists have been probing individual regions of the brain for over a century, exploring their function by zapping them with electricity and temporarily putting them out of action. Despite this, they have never been able to turn off consciousness – until now.

Although only tested in one person, the discovery suggests that a single area – the claustrum – might be integral to combining disparate brain activity into a seamless package of thoughts, sensations and emotions. It takes us a step closer to answering a problem that has confounded scientists and philosophers for millennia – namely how our conscious awareness arises.

Many theories abound but most agree that consciousness has to involve the integration of activity from several brain networks, allowing us to perceive our surroundings as one single unifying experience rather than isolated sensory perceptions. ...

It now looks as if Crick and Koch were on to something. In a study published last week,Mohamad Koubeissi at the George Washington University in Washington DC and his colleagues describe how they managed to switch a woman's consciousness off and on by stimulating her claustrum. The woman has epilepsy so the team were using deep brain electrodes to record signals from different brain regions to work out where her seizures originate. One electrode was positioned next to the claustrum, an area that had never been stimulated before.

When the team zapped the area with high frequency electrical impulses, the woman lost consciousness. She stopped reading and stared blankly into space, she didn't respond to auditory or visual commands and her breathing slowed. As soon as the stimulation stopped, she immediately regained consciousness with no memory of the event. The same thing happened every time the area was stimulated during two days of experiments (Epilepsy and Behavior,doi.org/tgn).

 

[Soupie]

What specifically are you reading? Link?

Chapter I: The Essential Nature of Man

Christ Impulse: Lecture 3: The Entrance of the Christ-Being into the Evolution of Humanity

 

[smcder]

Christ Impulse: Lecture 3: The Entrance of the Christ-Being into the Evolution of Humanity

I think you may have to back up a bit and look at the link to the Five Basic Books ... I was able to get a feel for Steiner from several lectures that intrigued me - but then he would get into something advanced and I was lost.

In the link above on the Essential Nature of Man, he begins to talk about body, soul and spirit:

"By these means man continually links himself in this threefold way with the things of the world. One should not, for the present, read anything into this fact, but merely take it as it stands. From this it can be seen that man has three sides to his nature. This and nothing else will, for the present, be indicated here by the three words, body, soul and spirit. Whoever connects any preconceived opinions or even hypotheses with these three words will necessarily misunderstand the following explanations. By body is here meant that through which the things in the environment of a man reveal themselves to him, as in the above example, the flowers in the meadow. By the word soul is signified that by which he links the things to his own being, through which he experiences pleasure and displeasure, desire and aversion, joy and sorrow in connection with them. By spirit is meant what becomes manifest in him when as Goethe expressed it, he looks at things as a “so to speak divine being.” In this sense man consists of body, soul and spirit."

 

[Tyger]

Excellent post, @smcderI believe that elves, faeries, demons, and aliens are all one and the same. Satan is referred to as the prince of the power of the air.

May as well say that electrons, protons and neutrons are all 'one and the same'. May as well say that zebras, horses and antelope are all 'one and the same'. Distinctions are made between elves and fairies for a reason - the same as in the prior examples - experience of such and observation of such create different conceptual frames.

In a world where everyone sees in black-and-white - how would one describe color? In a world where everyone is blind, and oneself is sighted - how would one describe the world one sees as a sighted person? Same goes for those who can 'see' into the spiritual world - they may describe with exactitude what they 'see' but it becomes problematic for those without that capacity. (Though we all have the capacity, if only in latent form).

Demons, aliens and Satan are a bit problematic as conceptual frames. Their etymology is more signifiant than anything 'real' being referred to. Or the word is so umbrella-like - like the word 'Satan' (akin to the word' dyslexia', another umbrella term) - that the word becomes meaningless when used without experience or observation to inform it.

 

[Soupie]

May as well say that electrons, protons and neutrons are all 'one and the same'. May as well say that zebras, horses and antelope are all 'one and the same'. Distinctions are made between elves and fairies for a reason - the same as in the prior examples - experience of such and observation of such create different conceptual frames.

The point is not so much that there aren't different types of non-human intelligences — I think there are but don't know conclusively via personal experience — but if there are, such "spiritual" or magical or paranormal entities are really just natural entities that we don't currently have a way to conceptualize. Regardless they are bound by the "laws" of reality just as we are; that is, they exist in the same reality as us.

Re: the spiritual. Still not clear on what it is... Is it simply a mirror version of our physical reality but consisting of non-physical things? Or is it pure thought? Pure emotion?

How is it any different from the physical realm except in name?

 

[smcder]

The point is not so much that there aren't different types of non-human intelligences — I think there are but don't know conclusively via personal experience — but if there are, such "spiritual" or magical or paranormal entities are really just natural entities that we don't currently have a way to conceptualize. Regardless they are bound by the "laws" of reality just as we are; that is, they exist in the same reality as us.

Re: the spiritual. Still not clear on what it is... Is it simply a mirror version of our physical reality but consisting of non-physical things? Or is it pure thought? Pure emotion?

How is it any different from the physical realm except in name?

@Tyger will know Steiner better than I do - but this is from Theosophy (linked above) ... He asks the reader to expand his conceptions and perceptions ... So from the choices you offer, it's none of the above:

"The spiritual is as different from the soul as the soul is from the body. As long as only the particles of carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen and oxygen that are in motion in the body are spoken of, we do not have the soul in view. Soul life begins only when within the motion of these particles the feeling arises, “I taste sweetness,” or, “I feel pleasure.” Likewise, we do not have the spirit in view as long as merely those soul experiences are considered that course through anyone who gives himself over entirely to the outer world and his bodily life. This soul life is rather the basis of the spiritual just as the body is the basis of the soul life. The biologist is concerned with the body, the investigator of the soul — the psychologist — with the soul, and the investigator of the spirit with the spirit. It is incumbent on those who would understand the nature of man by means of thinking, first to make clear to themselves through self-reflection the difference between body, soul and spirit."