Do You Believe in Ghosts?

[The Pair of Cats]

Yes. Demonic infestation or possession is an entirely different matter. Although it is said that spirits of the dead and Demons (if you truly believe that they exist) occupy the same space or dimension, for want of a better description.

Are you saying that demonic possession or infestation is not a different matter than ghosts? Because that was what i was inferring. Whether there are demons or not that is not what this thread is about. Demons ARE a different subject. "It is said by others", such as the ones mentioned and maybe not word for word, but still inferred by some of them. Whether i believe them or not is an entirely different matter. No where in those sentences do i show or purport to have any expertise in that area. No where in that post do i say i believe them. I was merely stating that others such as Zaffis, the Warrens Phil Imbrogno, Mary Ellen Guiley have said. But since you seem to delight in misrepresentation, twisting things to suit your argument whatever that is, i have highlighted the relevant bits.

You mean like prove that I know you are right about space relations and dimensions? No, I will leave the guess work to you as you seem to do such a nice job of it without any help from me. I never once stated that I knew anything about the actual spacial parts of the afterlife, you did!

As i said before i have never stated that i know anything about "space relations and dimensions". Show me what part of my statement shows that i do? You seem to be making that up all by yourself due to your inability to actually read or comprehend what i wrote.
As you have already admitted that you know nothing about the subject, how can you possibly say that Imbrognoo, Guiley, et al, are wrong?

And as far as proving that demons exist, prove they don't! Prove to all of us just why it is that you can state so eloquently that the dead and demons occupy the same dimension without any possible means of knowing this, if you DON'T believe they exist? Oh I see, your fail-safe.....the cop out of, "(if you truly believe that they exist)" bullshit. Kind of like using a clarification without having to be responsible for the intent....

See what i mean about twisting things to suit YOUR argument. It was not a cop out as you say. I don't know if demons exist or not. I have never met one before encountering you on these forums. The people i mentioned seem to believe it though.
If you have no knowledge or expertise in that area then shut the fuck up and leave it to the people who have actually studied the phenomena.

...inferiority complex anyone.

You twist my words. You have a comprehension problem. You know nothing about demons. Yet there's this...

There was a case I was on years ago where a man found himself in quite a bad situation...............To make a long story short, at first it looked as though he finally found a way to suffice his loss and his sadness.....unfortunately for him, the moment this "demon" gained his confidence, he literally had a "heck" of a time living there, or happily for that matter.

What in the hell are you doing? You have already stated you know nothing about demons yet here you are telling us that a demon had gained his confidence. You moron. How the fuck do you know? And why the hell were you meddling in areas you know nothing about? Naive, irresponsible, reckless, incompetent are just some of the words that spring to mind there.
You need to stop whatever your doing and have a good hard look at yourself before some poor unsuspecting person gets another dose of your amateur diagnosis.

 

[dyingsun]

There's a critical option missing in this poll, 'yes, but not sure what this phenomenon is' would be a start.

 

[Sean Elifritz]

As I am with religion/life after death I'm pretty doubtful about ghosts. A close relative claims to have seen the ghost of her father shortly after his death but I suspect it might have been a brief separation from reality brought on by grief. But it's not that I don't want to believe. My preoccupation with weird things is what led me here in the first place, what started me off with this stuff in a fairly intense way 20 years ago. But in all that time of looking into the paranormal/unexplained/UFOs/Bigfoot/supernatural, etc., what I've mostly discovered is wish fulfillment, uncorroborated stories, and quite a bit of dishonesty. Frankly, 99% of this stuff at the minimum is emotion and entertainment.

If there's anything I really don't believe in it's ghost hunting shows on television. They are so ridiculous as to be vomit inducing. They were somewhat interesting at first. But nowadays anytime I see the lights go out and flashlights get turned on I groan and turn the channel. Unfortunately those types of "investigations" are the only ones on, goofballs running around with flashlights getting excited about their own shadows on the walls. What a breath of fresh air it would be to see an investigation done during the day without a damned flashlight in sight.

 

[tyder001]

If there's anything I really don't believe in it's ghost hunting shows on television. They are so ridiculous as to be vomit inducing. They were somewhat interesting at first. But nowadays anytime I see the lights go out and flashlights get turned on I groan and turn the channel. Unfortunately those types of "investigations" are the only ones on, goofballs running around with flashlights getting excited about their own shadows on the walls. What a breath of fresh air it would be to see an investigation done during the day without a damned flashlight in sight.

I agree. As a little off topic tidbit it reminds me of the days of the Xfiles (some folks have songs. My wife and I have a show) But, anyway, Mulder and Scully would go into a building and turn on their flashlights. I would always say to the tv (actually only referees and umpires can hear me when I yell at the tv but I forget sometime) Anyway, I would always yell "Turn on the damn lightswitch" It's right there!

As for the paranormal I have to say that I do believe in spiritual reality and God but not because of pseudo science such as meters and cold spots although they are fun and interesting. As a matter of fact when it comes to the paranormal I feel a lot like Wickerman. But, I've had my own "expereinces" that have been proof enough (to me) that we are not simply a product of brain chemistry (although that's certainly in dere) But, if paranormal research (insert eye roll here) such as the ghost hunter crap on tv was all I had to go by then no I wouldn't believe any of it.

 

[PararealitySaint]

Are you saying that demonic possession or infestation is not a different matter than ghosts? Because that was what i was inferring. Whether there are demons or not that is not what this thread is about. Demons ARE a different subject. "It is said by others", such as the ones mentioned and maybe not word for word, but still inferred by some of them. Whether i believe them or not is an entirely different matter. No where in those sentences do i show or purport to have any expertise in that area. No where in that post do i say i believe them. I was merely stating that others such as Zaffis, the Warrens Phil Imbrogno, Mary Ellen Guiley have said. But since you seem to delight in misrepresentation, twisting things to suit your argument whatever that is, i have highlighted the relevant bits.

What I believe in is irrelevant to what you pretend to know. You were using the statement to confirm a "taught" exception to the point and you know it. The sad part is that even when you are caught in an obvious FUBAR you look to squirm out of it like a snake caught in a net. I could care less whether you believe in Demons or not. Then you throw out names like Mary (whose actual name is Rosemary unless you know her personally which I doubt you do) Ellen Guiley, Phil Imbrogno and others, just so that you can pretend your point holds merit to what they actually believe in, when most of them evolve and change their point of view over the years anyway. Not ONE of them would DARE be caught in a statement like you made, basically because they have the intelligence to know that if they were caught stating your stupid phrase as exacting, they would be panned in the paranormal community as Charlatans. They wouldn't want to pretend to know the reasons for the afterlife like you do, and their "theories" are continuously adapting to their experiences....Something you can't get wasting your time trolling the net for new and exciting forums to spew forth your bullshit with.

As i said before i have never stated that i know anything about "space relations and dimensions". Show me what part of my statement shows that i do? You seem to be making that up all by yourself due to your inability to actually read or comprehend what i wrote.
As you have already admitted that you know nothing about the subject, how can you possibly say that Imbrognoo, Guiley, et al, are wrong?

LOL! Who's twisting whose words? I stated your statement was unproven, conjecture, and yet it was written as a reply to a post as though the words were etched in divine stone. I asked you to prove what it is you wrote and you instead decided to attack in response, asking me to prove aspects of the very point you exaggerated around. There isn't any room for wondering whether or not you believed in, cared about, or actually learned what it is you wrote, but there is no doubt that you reply was done to in fact act as though the statement was:

A. Exactly what all those famous names in the field you mentioned believed in.
B. A clarification of the design of the afterlife according to some fantastically (perhaps) drugged induced vision.
C. A need to fulfill the inadequacy you must suffer from whenever someone takes the time out to corner your bullshit and actually request where the proof of the words you spill derive from.

It was a simple question....one that even TRAINED only requested and I quote, "Now, you are going to have to get Pair of Cats to actually tell you whatever it is he is actually talking about. Honestly, I'd be interested in the source of that information as well."

See what i mean about twisting things to suit YOUR argument. It was not a cop out as you say. I don't know if demons exist or not. I have never met one before encountering you on these forums. The people i mentioned seem to believe it though.
If you have no knowledge or expertise in that area then shut the fuck up and leave it to the people who have actually studied the phenomena.

LOL! What a sad little kitty you are. I feel sorry for you when you write like this. it bodes of a little child throwing a tantrum because his mommy won't allow him to watch any more Marvin The Martian cartoons until he eats his spinach.

But, like all good little boys and girls, sometimes it's necessary to spank...so here it is:

Originally Posted by The Pair of Cats
Yes. Demonic infestation or possession is an entirely different matter. Although it is said that spirits of the dead and Demons (if you truly believe that they exist) occupy the same space or dimension, for want of a better description.

1. "Demonic Infestation"....used in this sentence as a dominant part of your point, instead of starting with, "IF" which would show your doubt in confirmation that they do, or do not. So when you look to change your mind and state in later parts of the thread that, "I don't know if demons exist or not", you shouldn't initialize like an expert little kitty....bad kitty!

2. " I have never met one (as in a demon) before encountering you on these forums."
Now now...you should never use "Zaffis" and the "Warrens" in your teachings if you don't know the type of wherewithal they in fact utilized when confronting the demonic forces out there. They would either look for a blessing or use a cross, or in the past I have seen them use a consultant or minister. I could swear I have stated on this forum many times in the past that I believe in my Lord Jesus Christ as Savior. Guess what was one of the going practices of both John Zaffis years ago and the Warrens when they confronted one of the dark side? The Warrens would "bind" the demon either within the person possessed or the zone in which they were haunting. Well, taking this into consideration, and the fact that you put so much weight in using their names for your stupid point, wouldn't my acknowledgment of Christ as my savoir to the obvious exclusion of the demonic forces, make your little put down as nonsensical as your usual banter? Yep it would.

You twist my words. You have a comprehension problem. You know nothing about demons. Yet there's this...

The only problem I have is in the waste of time I continue to allow in answering someone as perpetually infantile and sadly misinformed as you are. The end result of all of this is whether or not some day you will be given the chance to say hello to all those very demons you speak so knowledgeably about. I pray not and that you will be saved, but who knows, I have admitted I am not always right in the way I do things, just ask Trained.

What in the hell are you doing? You have already stated you know nothing about demons yet here you are telling us that a demon had gained his confidence. You moron. How the fuck do you know? And why the hell were you meddling in areas you know nothing about? Naive, irresponsible, reckless, incompetent are just some of the words that spring to mind there.
You need to stop whatever your doing and have a good hard look at yourself before some poor unsuspecting person gets another dose of your amateur diagnosis.

You see, this demented form of replying isn't gaining you any new friends kitty. Your words actually bespeak of an angry young man who needs desperately to win an argument because he just isn't getting anywhere in his life. It's very funny how you conclude that by my saying I don't know what goes on in the afterlife, that somehow I don't know anything about demons or demonic activity. To know that demons exist is one part of it. To know what they truly are is based on faith and something in which I am not ready to state I know beyond the shadow of a doubt about. I am taught that they are the manifestation of fallen angels according to my "primitive" Bible. Whatever the case may be, the fact still remains that I can actually hold fast to my faith when dealing with them, and you on the other hand, well....who knows....and quite honestly, Lord forgive me....Who cares. Move on now little kitty and drink some milk or something and grow up to one day be a big cat. When you have done so come back and perhaps then I will waste my time with you a little more. Until then, and I am sure to the happy regards of most of the people who have to suffer in reading ALL of this bullshit, I am done and will not respond to your jabber in this thread any longer....MEOWSEEYA.

 

[trainedobserver]

Fair enough. Aside from possible neurological problems, what do you think that people might be experiencing?

I think there are probably a variety of explanations with the more mundane and prosaic being in the larger percentage. Some smaller and more interesting percentage of the unknown and unexplainable might be attributed to this:


There exists on the other side of our senses an invisible and silent multidimensional world that our brain/mind systems have evolved to represent as a 3 dimensional virtual reality simulation we understand as our conscious minds. We only indirectly experience the real world through this brain/mind system representation however. Therefore, there could be entities, objects, and forces that we co-exist with in the real world that cannot be reliably represented by our senses or our imaginations due to these constraints. These normally imperceptible aspects of the real world could possibly intrude on our consciousness from time to time if conditions permit, but due their very outre nature, our brain/mind systems cannot reliably represent them to us or even conceptualize them properly producing the various stories generated around these anomalous events.


That's my best shot at it anyway Phil.

 

[mike]

Is he still here ?

Damn.... I was hoping he got raptured..............

 

[Sean Elifritz]

I agree. As a little off topic tidbit it reminds me of the days of the Xfiles (some folks have songs. My wife and I have a show) But, anyway, Mulder and Scully would go into a building and turn on their flashlights. I would always say to the tv (actually only referees and umpires can hear me when I yell at the tv but I forget sometime) Anyway, I would always yell "Turn on the damn lightswitch" It's right there!

As for the paranormal I have to say that I do believe in spiritual reality and God but not because of pseudo science such as meters and cold spots although they are fun and interesting. As a matter of fact when it comes to the paranormal I feel a lot like Wickerman. But, I've had my own "expereinces" that have been proof enough (to me) that we are not simply a product of brain chemistry (although that's certainly in dere) But, if paranormal research (insert eye roll here) such as the ghost hunter crap on tv was all I had to go by then no I wouldn't believe any of it.

I forgot to mention the night vision stuff, goggles, cameras, etc. That's probably even more silly. I can somewhat understand turning off the electricity in a place as it might interfere with their equipment, especially the EMP things. But if you do your searching in the day or simply setup some lanterns (These are bright enough to fully illuminate everything) or whatever then what is the need for night vision or flashlights? Obviously there is none. They do it simply because they think it makes it more dramatic for TV. These guys lurking around in the dark get themselves all spooked and start freaking out over everything, creaks, shadows, you name it. Have things lit up and 90% of that creepy feeling is going to be removed and they would be able to investigate in a more sober way. But perhaps that wouldn't be as entertaining and I guess that to television producers the entertainment factor is the important one.

 

[PararealitySaint]

I think there are probably a variety of explanations with the more mundane and prosaic being in the larger percentage. Some smaller and more interesting percentage of the unknown and unexplainable might be attributed to this:


There exists on the other side of our senses an invisible and silent multidimensional world that our brain/mind systems have evolved to represent as a 3 dimensional virtual reality simulation we understand as our conscious minds. We only indirectly experience the real world through this brain/mind system representation however. Therefore, there could be entities, objects, and forces that we co-exist with in the real world that cannot be reliably represented by our senses or our imaginations due to these constraints. These normally imperceptible aspects of the real world could possibly intrude on our consciousness from time to time if conditions permit, but due their very outre nature, our brain/mind systems cannot reliably represent them to us or even conceptualize them properly producing the various stories generated around these anomalous events.


That's my best shot at it anyway Phil.

Very interesting Trained, but tell me something if you could...why do you think we haven't the (added?) sense to observe the "invisible and silent multidimensional world", or at least to the point of making our mindset equate to the rationale of what it is as a perception relative to our dimension?

Do you believe that a "medium" can go a step further than the average Joe's perception in actually singling out the familiar "spirits" from what the laymen would perceive as a shadow person or perhaps generic ghost?

Lastly, do you believe that the "afterlife" is not death as some people do, but instead another perception we gain when we shed off this shell of a body on this plane? If not, then what do you believe actually happens to these conscious senses once "death" occurs.....as in, do you believe we keep some of them and are limited in relating with this plane once we go on to the next, needing to suck up energy here (cold spots, hot spots, electrical drains, etc.) in order to influence?

 

[trainedobserver]

why do you think we haven't the (added?) sense to observe the "invisible and silent multidimensional world", or at least to the point of making our mindset equate to the rationale of what it is as a perception relative to our dimension?

Perhaps because they aren't necessary for human beings to survive and thrive. The process either never developed them, eliminated them, or attenuated them.

Do you believe that a "medium" can go a step further than the average Joe's perception in actually singling out the familiar "spirits" from what the laymen would perceive as a shadow person or perhaps generic ghost?

No

Lastly, do you believe that the "afterlife" is not death as some people do, but instead another perception we gain when we shed off this shell of a body on this plane?

Absolutely not

If not, then what do you believe actually happens to these conscious senses once "death" occurs.

Steven Hawking recently expressed my sentiments exactly. When you die it, all is done, there is nothing else.

.as in, do you believe we keep some of them and are limited in relating with this plane once we go on to the next, needing to suck up energy here (cold spots, hot spots, electrical drains, etc.) in order to influence?

I don't think there is any next plain whatsoever. This is the only life you get.

 

[Sean Elifritz]

Steven Hawking expressed my sentiments exactly recently. When you die, all is done.

Exactly. When one dies the lights go out and they never come back on. Billions of years will pass afterward and it might as well be a nanosecond as far as you're concerned because you'll never be aware of any of it. But I've had a few people lecture me about their religious beliefs a time or two and it's left me wishing that there could be at least a 3-5 second afterlife for those types, one where a voice says, "You were wrong. This is the end." just before the lights go out. But alas, there almost certainly isn't and those people will never know that they were full of it (Nor will I have time to realize that I was right).

And I got on this one time here before, and people told me I was being melodramatic, but I feel that because we are mortal and there is nothing after death that intelligence is a bit of a perversion of nature. None of the other creatures on this planet are killing each other over their fear of death because they're too dumb to even know they'll die. That works outs OK. But when ya' mix mortality with intelligence ya' get crazy shit like witch burnings, the Taliban, and generally good, intelligent people bitching at others about invisible men in the sky. Mother Nature is smart when it comes to a lot of things but she screwed the pooch on this one. She's created something that is well aware of its mortality, is petrified of it and dreams up all varieties of silliness in an attempt to alleviate that fear, and has the means to exercise its fear in catastrophic ways, possibly even destroying Mother herself. Yep, good call. If I were a production manager churning out life on an assembly line I'd have a few simple rules: Dumb life can die. But intelligent life lives forever, otherwise I'm going to cause a lot of unneeded violence and chaos and just generally manic behavior.

 

[The Pair of Cats]

The more i think about it the, more i think that there is some kind of afterlife. That there are spirits of the dead and that some people can see or converse with them. After years of talking with people about their experiences coupled with my own, I think there are realms or dimensions where spirits, demons and other beings exist. It may also be an area where some UFOs originate. I think that clues are to be found in near death experiences and out of body experiences.

 

[PararealitySaint]

I don't think there is any next plain whatsoever. This is the only life you get.

So then why are there these "extra" forms or "lacking of form" within the pool of human based senses in the first place? If as you say there is something in which our senses have not attenuated for based on the lack of need to have, and that there is a "separate" or alternate dimension than that of our own.....why do you think it exists. Surely not for something we as humans can take advantage of, then perhaps animals....another type of life?

As your theory on this evolves, are there any explanations you have for why "apparitions" seem to have intelligent relations with those who search for them, or even those who find themselves in a situation in which they found him or her? That they take on the complete image of a loved one or individual in history, to do so in this communication or involvement.

In studying this I have found non intelligent, or residual hauntings....and intelligent, more involved and direct in your face hauntings.

I appreciate your answers.

 

[mike]

Stephen Hawking, Death, and God

<SCRIPT type=text/javascript src="http://s0.wp.com/wp-content/plugins/adverts/adsense.js?m=1304062113g&1"></SCRIPT>Yesterday Stephen Hawking, Britain’s most eminent scientist, who was diagnosed with motor neurone disease at the age of 21, shares his thoughts on death and human purpose, with the Guardian. Here are excerpts of the report/interview:
“I have lived with the prospect of an early death for the last 49 years. I’m not afraid of death, but I’m in no hurry to die. I have so much I want to do first,” he said. The 69-year-old physicist added: “I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail. There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark “. Hawking’s latest comments go beyond those laid out in his 2010 book, The Grand Design, in which he asserted that there is no need for a creator to explain the existence of the universe.

Im with Hawking on this one, i think we are biological machines and when the machine fails.........

I dont believe there is a supernatural mechanism for "life" after biofunction failure, anymore than there is a supernatural way for me to boot up my old wang 286 thats sitting in the loft.

I just cant see the "transports" the mechanisms for taking the data that is you/me/us and maintaining that information matrix outside the bioform it currently resides in.

However, i do think that if there is a mechanism for life after death, its more likely to be a technological one rather than a supernatural one.
Advances in brain reading technology are happening all the time, Its crude at present, but proof of concept is there.

This article was published just last week

Could a mind-reading machine soon be a reality? Scientists 'decode' human brainwaves

I have more "faith" that Kurweils dream might become reality

Just when will this ultimate life-affirming feat be possible? In Kurzweil's estimation, we will be able to upload the human brain to a computer, capturing "a person's entire personality, memory, skills and history", by the end of the 2030s

Than i do in a supernatural mechanism for "life" after death.
I believe technology is the only way we might acheive post biological intellect.

Im also of the opinion that the UFO enigma might, just might be a part of this picture, that the occupants might themselves be post biological intellects, and that this might be the ultimate explanation to the enigma.

there have been hints

In an earlier Insight, I wrote: "My theory about 'the visitors' is different from that of most UFO investigators: I think they are either time travelers, visitors from a parallel universe, the dead, or all 3."

Read the original source: Insight | WHAT are the Visitors Doing here? by Anne Strieber | unknowncountry​

Redferns book on the collins elite mentions the "harvesting of souls".

I think its possible that technological mechanisms for post biological intellect could exist/be invented. That the vast bulk of technologically advanced sentience might be using it, and that our social memes for life after death, could be simplistic representations of a technological reality thats actually at play here

My usual caveat, these are just ideas, not answers

 

[trainedobserver]

So then why are there these "extra" forms or "lacking of form" within the pool of human based senses in the first place?

I don't understand the question.

If as you say there is something in which our senses have not attenuated for based on the lack of need to have, and that there is a "separate" or alternate dimension than that of our own.....why do you think it exists. Surely not for something we as humans can take advantage of, then perhaps animals....another type of life?

I don't quite understand what you are getting at. I think you meant to say something else other than attenuated, perhaps attuned or something like that.


I am not talking about separate or alternate dimensions as is portrayed in popular science fiction. I think of it as only being the real world, which I think of as the quantum soup containing everything, and the individual subjective worlds of individual conscious minds being generated by brains in that real world.

As your theory on this evolves, are there any explanations you have for why "apparitions" seem to have intelligent relations with those who search for them, or even those whot find themselves in a situation in which they found him or her? That they take on the complete image of a loved one or individual in history, to do so in this communication or involvement.

I think much of it can be attributed to psychological or physiological reactions to anomalous events that the brain/mind system has no schema to handle. The emerging story surrounding such an event takes shape to give the individual some means of processing an otherwise inconceivable event.

---------- Post added at 08:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:56 PM ----------

The more i think about it the, more i think that there is some kind of afterlife. That there are spirits of the dead and that some people can see or converse with them.

That all relies on individuality being something other than a complete illusion.

 

[muse]

I think you are on the mark there when mentioning schema...I think, rather than not having a schema for those experiences, the schema would involve an archetype ("ghost") and an event schema ("this is what ghosts do").

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[PararealitySaint]

I don't understand the question.

Original question: So then why are there these "extra" forms or "lacking of form" within the pool of human based senses in the first place? If as you say there is something in which our senses have not attenuated for based on the lack of need to have, and that there is a "separate" or alternate dimension than that of our own.....why do you think it exists. Surely not for something we as humans can take advantage of, then perhaps animals....another type of life?

Explanation: Man has senses that we use on any given day. I used the word "attenuated" as in "reduce in force", for the context of "lacking" in the need to have. Sorry if I seemed so archaic. My question is basically this: Why have the obvious "other dimension" if human beings have nothing to do with it? Do you believe that something else in this dimension has something to do with it such as animals, another type of life form other than ours? The phenomenon is there and it sometimes has energy measured outside of human positions, like for instance an EMF detector with a raised percentage of electro-magnetic energy, and this within a span of an area devoid of any electrical outlets or grounding.

I don't quite understand what you are getting at. I think you meant to say something else other than attenuated, perhaps attuned or something like that.

See above.....

I am not talking about separate or alternate dimensions as is portrayed in popular science fiction. I think of it as only being the real world, which I think of as the quantum soup containing everything, and the individual subjective worlds of individual conscious minds being generated by brains in that real world.

Ok, then my original question still stands.....Why ? What possible reason would nature (as I take it you do not believe in the divine) have for this allowance. Would it be a "hunting" instinct, a fight or flight mechanism....a not completely developed instinctive path to an evolutionary growth pattern in the consciousness of the mindset only in the one world dimension you specify?

I think much of it can be attributed to psychological or physiological reactions to anomalous events that the brain/mind system has no schema to handle. The emerging story surrounding such an event takes shape to give the individual some means of processing an otherwise inconceivable event.

Ok, then in the topic of "apparitions", why then do some of these entities seem to have their own intelligence? If this is but a consciously developed natural occurrence in the brain (relating with each others brain), what gives the so called illusion the semblance of a sometimes communicative, often times interacting interest? Sometimes to the point where new information is actually gained without any initial query by the witness of said apparation.

 

[trainedobserver]

Ok, then my original question still stands.....Why ? What possible reason would nature (as I take it you do not believe in the divine) have for this allowance. Would it be a "hunting" instinct, a fight or flight mechanism....a not completely developed instinctive path to an evolutionary growth pattern in the consciousness of the mindset only in the one world dimension you specify?

I can only think that as in any evolutionary process the brain/mind systems were successful in allowing the organisms that developed them to survive. They got passed on and refined. Resource restrictions within the organism (speaking of a species as a whole) would prevent it from evolving some all inclusive representation of the real world therefore only what was necessary or what worked well enough would be developed. Human beings have a 3 dimensional brain/mind system operating within a given set of parameters while other species of animals could possibly be experiencing the real world through their brain/mind systems very differently.

Ok, then in the topic of "apparitions", why then do some of these entities seem to have their own intelligence? If this is but a consciously developed natural occurrence in the brain (relating with each others brain), what gives the so called illusion the semblance of a sometimes communicative, often times interacting interest? Sometimes to the point where new information is actually gained without any initial query by the witness of said apparation.

From post 87.
There exists on the other side of our senses an invisible and silent multidimensional world that our brain/mind systems have evolved to represent as a 3 dimensional virtual reality simulation we understand as our conscious minds. ... Therefore, there could be entities, objects, and forces that we co-exist with in the real world that cannot be reliably represented by our senses or our imaginations due to these constraints. These normally imperceptible aspects of the real world could possibly intrude on our consciousness from time to time if conditions permit, but due their very outre nature, our brain/mind systems cannot reliably represent them to us or even conceptualize them properly producing the various stories generated around these anomalous events.
From post 95
I think much of it can be attributed to psychological or physiological reactions to anomalous events that the brain/mind system has no schema to handle. The emerging story surrounding such an event takes shape to give the individual some means of processing an otherwise inconceivable event.

I can't get it any more succinct than those two posts. People could be experiencing real world aspects of human nature that are imperceptible to us normally, resulting in various and sundry explanations arising in different cultures and time periods. I think the answer to the true nature of these things probably lies in efforts to gain a better understanding of ourselves rather than in attempts to understand the hypothetical realms of superstition and science fiction fantasy.

I think there could very well be some small percentage of paranormal phenomena that might be attributed to interaction with unknown entities or forces normally imperceptible to us co-existing with us in the real world. I just don't think any of the stories we've come up with be that ghosts, djinn, demons, aliens, leprechauns, angels, or gods have even the slimiest chance of accurately explaining them due to the resource constraints I've described.

 

[PararealitySaint]

I can only think that as in any evolutionary process the brain/mind systems were successful in allowing the organisms that developed them to survive. They got passed on and refined. Resource restrictions within the organism (speaking of a species as a whole) would prevent it from evolving some all inclusive representation of the real world therefore only what was necessary or what worked well enough would be developed. Human beings have a 3 dimensional brain/mind system operating within a given set of parameters while other species of animals could possibly be experiencing the real world through their brain/mind systems very differently.

As you state here "they", meaning the senses which make us aware of apparitions got passed on and refined. What possible reason would nature have to do this without a seemingly effulgent influence, based on the evolutionary process as science knows it today? A directive or clear progression to this would have to be set, because even taking into account a randomized process, or a chance process, why would an independently progressing stimuli influence the end result of another independent stimuli without cause based on a mutually progressive end result....in this case the awareness of an apparition?

You take the senses we have now, obviously believing that they are evolving and developing within a world, based on a randomized or a non "divine or superior intelligent driven" pattern. You take these other senses you allude to, and they also develop or evolve to the extent you mention they are, "passed on and refined". Considering this and our conscious senses being what they may, and that is the old, "I think therefore I am" relevance, what possible reason would nature progress a divergent "stimuli based" sense only to be limitedly influencing a totally different progressive one; in the context of what reasonably possible or quantitative outcome? It's like saying that man initially learned to hunt (instinct to eat) not because he liked his belly filled with food, but because the trophy (eventual choice based on the ego) he has on the wall filled him up instead. In that example there is no relevance, only a consciously perceived notion that the trophy looked nice after the fact. A consciously aware thought because the hunter could feel "proud" of his kill. These are two totally divergent stimuli based "awareness" for lack of a better word, both developed based on food, trophy from ego, etc.

By what you propose, the stimuli based sense of apparition awareness in no way coincides with original consciousness as we know it. It is only in man's eventual understanding of the superstitions he applies to life that we acknowledge something is a ghost or specter, etc.....but my friend, the clear "sense" which originated the acknowledgement of these apparitions developed for what reason? Surely not for the divergent sense of consciousness.

 

[trainedobserver]

As you state here "they", meaning the senses which make us aware of apparitions got passed on and refined.

No. I referring to the normal evolutionary development of the 3D brain/mind system of representing the real world. I don't think we have special "senses which make us aware of apparitions."

You take these other senses you allude to,

I meant to allude to nothing of the sort. You have misunderstood me. These concepts are difficult to communicate. I think of apparitions as operational aberrations of the brain/mind system due to stimuli that is outside of the operational parameters of the system. The true nature of these stimuli is obscured from us by these operational constraints.

The human brain/mind system isn't perfect and can never hope to be in any real sense. Our perception of the universe and our understanding of it will always be far, far, less than even remotely complete or accurate.