Bob Watson
Paranormal Adept
all refrecece posted ARE NOT 1st hand I need1st hand OUTSIDE the bible refreces to him
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Good article on did Jesus exsist?
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Kim323
Paranormal Maven
Hello, Vesvehighfolk. Kim here. And Mike, and Stonehart, these posts sometimes come so fast and furiously, that I don't want you two, especially, to miss my last post just above steering you two straight: whoops, I mean, presenting the facts! That would be Bart Ehrman's own article's link. Now, Vesvehighfolk, could you be more specific? I mean, you really are not. The references I posted, most assuredly, were OUTSIDE THE BIBLE references. Bart Ehrman mentions references, too. And FIRST HAND? What do you mean? You mean like a newspaper article, from the Jerusalem and Judaean Times, of April 15, AD 32, attesting what Jesus wore and the astonishing circumstances of his cure of the deaf and mute man? (And, by the way, there is scholarly analysis of just that "startling deed" by rational hardnosed scholars, but that's another topic). Really, I am, by my CAPITAL LETTERS and my wry humor (please see it as such) NOT angry with you or trying to ridicule you, because believe me, I know how that feels from Mike and Stonehart. And, please, Vesvehighfolk, read Bart Erhman's article in my last post above. Kim
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
Well, I still don't get just which Jesus is supposed to have existed. Maybe I'm just thick or perhaps the point is just a bit too fine for such broad brush subjects, I don't know.
I'm betting whichever one it is his momma didn't call him Jesus and he never paid his taxes from the mouth of fish, so I am forced to wonder what else that is passed off as knowledge about this historical figure is not reliable.
I'm betting whichever one it is his momma didn't call him Jesus and he never paid his taxes from the mouth of fish, so I am forced to wonder what else that is passed off as knowledge about this historical figure is not reliable.
Kim, I appreciate your comments on my dutiful report of Ehrman's interview. Though I did not hear any real compelling evidence from this interview to convince anyone that Jesus the man walked the Earth. That is not to say that I doubt nor believe, I am still on the fence..but am always listening and looking with an open mind to where the facts go. Perhaps his book is more thorough than his interview. I am a teacher, and a student , always.(literally and metaphorically)
I will say that the teachings of Jesus as I have been told through my guide is that his wisdom and practice is one for the masses to enjoy but no one could wrap their mind around it then and even most now have a hard time with it. And perhaps that is the reason or need for a Great Awakening that the Native American ppl. prophecy about and say the time is near.
I have come to know that what we perceive to be paranormal or supernatural abilities is nothing more than what Jesus and others were trying to teach the masses to utilize and use. I know that this is a bit off topic but I think it is a topic worth mentioning simply because this isn't really a subject of 'should we believe in Christianity if Jesus walked in physical form'. And I think many ppl. would view him and his teachings differently if they didn't have the prejudice of Christian faith looming over it. Yes, I think the faith has blemished many things, to say the least. I do not intend to offend only to state the obvious. It isn't about who's religion is right or wrong, it isn't about religion. In my opinion it never was. That would be the beauty in him being a real man born of Jewish descent and teachings all people that he is no more the son of god than you or I. We have something more in us than we realize. I find that to be an amazingly wonderful thing. And if that knowledge comes from Jesus or another , it doesn't matter to me what "religious sect" they are attributed to. I am an individual on a journey to discover my true self. Knowledge comes in many forms. We shouldn't dis-allow ourselves these wonderful facts simply because it is Christian or Buddhist or whatever form it comes in. (even pink giraffes)
I am not "sold" on Ehrman's findings. But I am convinced that in the name of this or that people do not want to see anything other than what they believe to be fact or faith. So for that, I hope that all of us walk away from this discussion with some sense of encouragement to be more open and receptive to new information.
Peace
I will say that the teachings of Jesus as I have been told through my guide is that his wisdom and practice is one for the masses to enjoy but no one could wrap their mind around it then and even most now have a hard time with it. And perhaps that is the reason or need for a Great Awakening that the Native American ppl. prophecy about and say the time is near.
I have come to know that what we perceive to be paranormal or supernatural abilities is nothing more than what Jesus and others were trying to teach the masses to utilize and use. I know that this is a bit off topic but I think it is a topic worth mentioning simply because this isn't really a subject of 'should we believe in Christianity if Jesus walked in physical form'. And I think many ppl. would view him and his teachings differently if they didn't have the prejudice of Christian faith looming over it. Yes, I think the faith has blemished many things, to say the least. I do not intend to offend only to state the obvious. It isn't about who's religion is right or wrong, it isn't about religion. In my opinion it never was. That would be the beauty in him being a real man born of Jewish descent and teachings all people that he is no more the son of god than you or I. We have something more in us than we realize. I find that to be an amazingly wonderful thing. And if that knowledge comes from Jesus or another , it doesn't matter to me what "religious sect" they are attributed to. I am an individual on a journey to discover my true self. Knowledge comes in many forms. We shouldn't dis-allow ourselves these wonderful facts simply because it is Christian or Buddhist or whatever form it comes in. (even pink giraffes)
I am not "sold" on Ehrman's findings. But I am convinced that in the name of this or that people do not want to see anything other than what they believe to be fact or faith. So for that, I hope that all of us walk away from this discussion with some sense of encouragement to be more open and receptive to new information.
Peace
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
I would just like to lay the challenge down again. What wisdom? What practice? Would someone holding the view that there is anything about the Jesus of the N.T. that classifies as transcending human knowledge and wisdom make a case for it? I extend the challenge to the finding anything virtuous, enviable, or practical in attempting to actually emulate the Jesus of the New Testament. Please ...anyone at all. NOTE: I am not talking about the Jesus of modern Christian myth, I am speaking of the character's actions and words contained in the N.T.
And for Pete's sake (that's funny that is) do not redirect me to something I have to muddle through to guess what the hell you meant in the first place. However, quoting the Bible is cool and acceptable in moderation (long quotes should just be referenced) since that is what we are talking about of course but for the love of Mike (pun intended) don't expect me to read someone else's opinion, I'd like to hear your own Mr. or Ms. Forum Participant.
I often hear from my god bothering rellys that the OT barbarity, sacrificing babies, killing of whole towns right down to the animals, the sending of two she bears to tear apart 42 boys for calling one of his priests a baldy......The drowning of the entire planet apart from noah and his family
Is set aside by the NT rules that jesus brings
But then Tim 2:12 is NT
And of course mathew 5:17 makes a lie of that claim
Thats right Jesus himself says all the OT laws are still on the books
So let me ask those who follow Jesus's teachings, keeping in mind what he says above
Do you
learn Torah and teach it (Deut. 6:7)
That every person shall write a scroll of the Torah for himself (Deut. 31:19)
To put tzitzit on the corners of clothing (Num. 15:38)
read the Shema in the morning and at night (Deut. 6:7)
Not to indulge in familiarities with relatives, such as kissing, embracing, winking, skipping, which may lead to incest (Lev. 18:6)
To fast on Yom Kippur (Lev. 23:27)
To keep the Canaanite slave forever (Lev. 25:46)
Not to wear garments made of wool and linen mixed together (Deut. 22:11)
That a menstruating woman is unclean and defiles others (Lev. 15:19-24)
Hundreds more at the link below
Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)
According to mathew 5:17 all these laws are in effect..........
Is set aside by the NT rules that jesus brings
But then Tim 2:12 is NT
And of course mathew 5:17 makes a lie of that claim
Thats right Jesus himself says all the OT laws are still on the books
What Would Jesus Do?
So let me ask those who follow Jesus's teachings, keeping in mind what he says above
Do you
learn Torah and teach it (Deut. 6:7)
That every person shall write a scroll of the Torah for himself (Deut. 31:19)
To put tzitzit on the corners of clothing (Num. 15:38)
read the Shema in the morning and at night (Deut. 6:7)
Not to indulge in familiarities with relatives, such as kissing, embracing, winking, skipping, which may lead to incest (Lev. 18:6)
To fast on Yom Kippur (Lev. 23:27)
To keep the Canaanite slave forever (Lev. 25:46)
Not to wear garments made of wool and linen mixed together (Deut. 22:11)
That a menstruating woman is unclean and defiles others (Lev. 15:19-24)
Hundreds more at the link below
Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)
According to mathew 5:17 all these laws are in effect..........
Slighty OT, (offtopic, not old testiment)
Lot, supposedly a "just and righteous man"
Gets not one, but both his daughters pregnant
His excuse ?, they got him drunk.
As a home brewer i can atest to the old adage too drunk to F F F Fornicate.
There comes a point where too much alcohol means you cant do the deed.
But Lots daughters not once but twice dose him up so that hes able to F F F.....
But also drunk enough not to know what he's doing.
Try running that one up the flagpole of the local magistrate.
"Yes your honour i did get both my daughters pregnant, but no i'm not guilty they are, they got me drunk"
You need to employ a lot of cognitive disonance, or several litres of strong wine to reconcile this with "just and righteous man"
Lot, supposedly a "just and righteous man"
Gets not one, but both his daughters pregnant
His excuse ?, they got him drunk.
As a home brewer i can atest to the old adage too drunk to F F F Fornicate.
There comes a point where too much alcohol means you cant do the deed.
But Lots daughters not once but twice dose him up so that hes able to F F F.....
But also drunk enough not to know what he's doing.
Try running that one up the flagpole of the local magistrate.
"Yes your honour i did get both my daughters pregnant, but no i'm not guilty they are, they got me drunk"
You need to employ a lot of cognitive disonance, or several litres of strong wine to reconcile this with "just and righteous man"
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
I am an individual on a journey to discover my true self.
This is where I am right now.
Then may whatever gods there be help you if you find it. The true self is a terror to the tiny bit of us that constitutes the conscious mind, but I am getting off topic.
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
Mike, you've jumped the gun and did not allowed the opposing viewpoint to be made before you posted your rebuttal. That could be classified as some sort of literary premature ejaculation or something.
I was trying to get someone to actually attempt to provide the positive argument and thereby begin a dialog with someone with an opposing viewpoint.
I was trying to get someone to actually attempt to provide the positive argument and thereby begin a dialog with someone with an opposing viewpoint.
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
Hrumph! There is quite a difference between diatribe and debate.
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
Im clever i can do both
Nothing like a little self-aggrandizing narcissism to bolster one's viewpoint eh?
Kim323
Paranormal Maven
Trained, I just got back on the forum, and read the last posts. I will, indeed, stick to the topic, as I have, and I will additionally soon answer your question about Jesus in the New Testament: to paraphrase you, and correct me if I'm wrong: What benefit can be gotten from emulating Jesus of the Gospels, what wisdom did he impart, and so on? I will even reread your questions, so I will try my best. Keep in mind, though, that part of that answer for me will be somewhat personal, partly because no one knows better than I do how awfully short of the bar I am myself in emulating Jesus. Horribly short. But, I will try more, though, to answer your question more from what is commonly accepted by Christians that they receive from learning about him in the Gospels. I just need to get my thoughts together more on your questions.
Now, to poor Mike, sputtering in impotent rage (nice one, Trained, about Mike "jumping the gun," and "premature ejaculation.") However, I will say that having said that, I feel a bit shamefaced, especially, and I mean this genuinely and with apology, to CitizenK and any other women on this forum. Now, I'm NOT apologizing for YOU, Trained, I thought it was a great riposte to Mike, but FOR ME for repeating it, sort of an apology in advance). Mike, as usual, ridicules and drags out the heavy artillery of cut and paste, but many of his shells misfire. He didn't take you a bit seriously, Trained, as you yourself point out about wanting honest dialogue, and IF he read the Bart Ehrman article I linked to, he'd never mention it, or reply to it directly or sanely. WHO DOUBTS that the Christian churches, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Protestants, have perpetuated horrors? That cannot be laid at Jesus's feet. WHO DOUBTS that MEN (in the plural sense of mankind), though it has been largely men with a little "m," have used Christianity in vile ways? The church, even the Catholic church Mike seems to despise so much, however, has done a lot of good, too. You see, what Mike does, and he knows this to a certain degree, he's too smart not to know it, it's the bounce and weave, the changing of the subject, and when he is confronted with facts (from Mike Licona, from Ehrman, from other readers, and from me (IF he reads the suggestions) he responds with vileness, dredging up any thing he can google and paste into his reply boxes. He knows this, and sadly, in some ways he doesn't. It's the method of argument of the poker of fun, the knock down the other guy with pseudo-intellectuality, the look how smart I am, the GOTCHA method. Never mind the facts. When confronted with them, it's bob and duck, and google and paste, and GOTCHA. And as Bart Ehrman so aptly says, and only Mike can answer this for himself, what at work here is what I've said before, there's an urge to cut down religion in and of itself, and to ridicule. Kim
Now, to poor Mike, sputtering in impotent rage (nice one, Trained, about Mike "jumping the gun," and "premature ejaculation.") However, I will say that having said that, I feel a bit shamefaced, especially, and I mean this genuinely and with apology, to CitizenK and any other women on this forum. Now, I'm NOT apologizing for YOU, Trained, I thought it was a great riposte to Mike, but FOR ME for repeating it, sort of an apology in advance). Mike, as usual, ridicules and drags out the heavy artillery of cut and paste, but many of his shells misfire. He didn't take you a bit seriously, Trained, as you yourself point out about wanting honest dialogue, and IF he read the Bart Ehrman article I linked to, he'd never mention it, or reply to it directly or sanely. WHO DOUBTS that the Christian churches, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Protestants, have perpetuated horrors? That cannot be laid at Jesus's feet. WHO DOUBTS that MEN (in the plural sense of mankind), though it has been largely men with a little "m," have used Christianity in vile ways? The church, even the Catholic church Mike seems to despise so much, however, has done a lot of good, too. You see, what Mike does, and he knows this to a certain degree, he's too smart not to know it, it's the bounce and weave, the changing of the subject, and when he is confronted with facts (from Mike Licona, from Ehrman, from other readers, and from me (IF he reads the suggestions) he responds with vileness, dredging up any thing he can google and paste into his reply boxes. He knows this, and sadly, in some ways he doesn't. It's the method of argument of the poker of fun, the knock down the other guy with pseudo-intellectuality, the look how smart I am, the GOTCHA method. Never mind the facts. When confronted with them, it's bob and duck, and google and paste, and GOTCHA. And as Bart Ehrman so aptly says, and only Mike can answer this for himself, what at work here is what I've said before, there's an urge to cut down religion in and of itself, and to ridicule. Kim
Hilarious
Bounce and weave, Lots of insults and incitement, but didnt address a single point.
How about you address just one
Do you observe the
Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)
Since JC states in Math 5:17
Simple yes or no shouldnt tax you much
Bounce and weave, Lots of insults and incitement, but didnt address a single point.
How about you address just one
Do you observe the
Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)
Since JC states in Math 5:17
Simple yes or no shouldnt tax you much
This can
“Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace on earth! No, rather a sword lf you love your father, mother, sister, brother, more than me, you are not worthy of being mine. Matthew 10:34
“Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." Matthew 10:21
Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace on earth! No, rather a sword
cause them to be put to death
“He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” Matthew 15:4-7
Jesus kills a fig tree for not bearing figs, even though it was out of season. Jesus must not be as smart as Christians would have us believe, for he was retarded enough to do something this silly. You’d think the son of god (god incarnate) would know that trees don’t bear fruit in dry season. Mark 11:13
Luke 12:47 Jesus okays beating slaves.
Tell me Kim, do you agree with jesus, thats its ok to beat slaves ?
Jesus says its cool, what do you say
Kim323
Paranormal Maven
So, mike, did Jesus exist, yes or no? Did you read anything I suggested, licona or the ehrman article? Yes or no? One word answer to the whole point of this thread, the question I've stayed on, and that ehrman addressed powerfully, and which you have thrown the kitchen sink at with the Murdock stuff: did Jesus exist, mike? Now you're quoting passages from the bible and from Jesus. Does that mean you now acknowledge his existence? Yes or no, one word. Kim
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