If Disclosure happened, what would happen to the movement?

[Kieran]

I believe these people are in the minority. As I stated my experience above, even people who profess to be fundamentalist in their beliefs often are a lot more flexible than they let on. They are simply in an environment where it is in their best interests to not make a big deal of it. Further, these guys are not mainstream. Your average Methodist or Catholic may go through the motions of professing Christ will come again, but they do not believe the Earth was made in 4004 BC and they really have no problem with the concept of aliens. Even the Vatican has said as much.

In other words, who cares what they think? What are they going to do? Take over the world? They'll simply have to deal with it. My guess is that they'd find some convoluted, twisted, totally insane explanation that allowed them to keep their faith and accommodate a new reality.

In our little scenario we're constructing here, I don't think they need to be overly accommodated. We're looking at extremes of behavior here when the large majority of people are not so extreme in their beliefs.

Minorities can be very dangerous when left unchecked. Muslim fundamentalist radicals had the ability to change the foreign policy of a superpower just in one day of attacks. They are in effect a minority of the Muslim population.Look at conflicts in countries around the world, it never the majority who causes the trouble, it usually a troublesome minority who causes the trouble and ends up fighting in the end. I agree a minority can never take over the world, but as i outlined they have to be watched.

As the issue is about disclosure and how certain section of society would react. It hard to know, but not everyone is going to welcome them with open arms. What happens if the Aliens say God' who is that? would true believers which maybe are in minority to the majority, what reaction would true believers have to such a statement? they do not have our beliefs' why.. God created everything in my eyes, and they have no clue to what God is..it be a test for the Vatican to give some answers to these people.

Reminds of Sarah Palin, this women i believe had the view that our World was less than Six thousand years, she is part of the minority and she could have ended up speaking for the majority if she became president.

 

[Trajanus]

Minorities can be very dangerous when left unchecked

A modern state at least, has the means to check them.

What happens if the Aliens say God' who is that? would true believers which maybe are in minority to the majority, what reaction would true believers have to such a statement?

For some time, there has been a gradual trend toward secularization. Assuming disclosure still lies quite a ways into the future, by that time, this potential issue will be less serious. In addition to fewer believers, their faith could be watered down to almost nothing.

they do not have our beliefs' why.. God created everything in my eyes, and they have no clue to what God is..it be a test for the Vatican to give some answers to these people.

Yep, we're licked.

 

[Kieran]

A modern state at least, has the means to check them.



For some time, there has been a gradual trend toward secularization. Assuming disclosure still lies quite a ways into the future, by that time, this potential issue will be less serious. In addition to fewer believers, their faith could be watered down to almost nothing.



Yep, we're licked.

Not true, many times in the past not long minorities have caused trouble in modern states. They are usually small in number and where fighting for their own causes, Disclosure will be different. You can watch agreed, but we know from history minorities have caused damage and got through the net.

It never be reduced to a few followers and reduced to nothing, but agreed they probably be in the minority rather than the majority.

 

[Rocketsauce]

If Obama announced we are not alone, I think there would be a long period where information is gradually released to the public. Every day the New York Times would cover a new facet of this stuff and lamo talk show hosts and the media would have a field day.

There would be debates in congress on various facets and new departments within the gov would be added like homeland security was added. The private sector would jump all over this and new markets would be created. Everything from new religious movements to online classes on how the bible interprets this stuff. Rumors would be all over the place about people who are 'insiders' and told so and so about this and that. Just like there is now but on a massive scale. People like Bassett will probably be on talk shows like Geraldo initially, but eventually just like we have in the paracast community, the Exopolitics people will be known widely as being an uninformed widely speculative cult of sorts. So while TV show producers scrambling to look for people who know about this topic initially, eventually experts like Vallee and down the road scholars from MIT/Harvard etc... will become the experts of the future. But..... maybe Bassett scores a late night radio show in a small market.

I think many of the religions have aspects to them that touch on this subject, but in a somewhat cryptic manner that can be spun, folded, wrapped up to fit any given person's world view or scenario. For example, how the hell does anyone believe in any modern religion today when shitty things happen to good people - aka - Holocaust Theology? Spin spin spin spin and keep going until you've found a way to explain your current reality via the framework which you were either born into or you adopted.

If David's scenario is the correct one (and I do think there might be some truths in there) then I would think the real 'larger picture' would remain hidden for quite some time. Obama doesn't want to distrub the 300 million americans who will break out the pitch forks and start plotting how we can recreate independance day (although this time IMAC's wont be compatible with technology millions of years ahead!). They will have to get some think tanks (Brookings, etc....) on board to figure out how to break this to people without people going nutzo.

People who think today's religion would be replaced? I think that is impossible. These texts are really flexible and people adapt to their environment/situation.

Indeed there will be a minority of people who lose their bearings on reality and go cookoo for cocopuffs. Suicide rates will increase and new psychological disorders might be created along with a new market for shrinks. But on the whole, Monday Night Football, a partisian government, Lindsey Lohan, Boeing, Target, Cheeseburgers and day jobs are not going to go anywhere. I have a feeling that even highly advanced beings still have day jobs or at least 'duties'/'purposes'. Someone has to fly the UFO or keep track of everyone's missing time.

I do think it could bring all humans closer together since all of a sudden each country/culture doesn't seem so different in light of a more advanced 'alien' for lack of a better word, species. It's easy to be dissillusioned and think there is no way that humans will come to together, just look at 911, everyone was Kumbaya for like 2 weeks and then business as usual. I disagree. This is larger and cuts to the essense of our entire species reality.In particular there are 3 markets that will be raking in the money:

1. Religious Movements - dvd's, retreats, classes, books, movies, etc....
2. Alcohol Sales - particularly whiskey!
3. Firearm Sales - sawed off shotgun hand on the pump

 

[Ezechiel]

In other words, who cares what they think? What are they going to do? Take over the world? They'll simply have to deal with it. My guess is that they'd find some convoluted, twisted, totally insane explanation that allowed them to keep their faith and accommodate a new reality.

Very true... when the pressure is overwhelming, you try to adapt, hail the apologists (But from that point on the the fabric of the construct slowly crumbles with credibility issues.... especially with claims of absolute infaillibility)

 

[Trajanus]

People who think today's religion would be replaced? I think that is impossible.

I don't think so. Religion is on the ropes even now. Look at the shortage of catholic priests--few people take that stuff seriously enough anymore to be willing to accept the required sacrifices like celibacy. Basically religion has declined because of material and scientific progress. Even in the last century, ideological challenges to religion (e.g. communism) came fairly close to replacing it even though they didn't have a tenth of the progress we now have, or 1% of what'll exist in the future.

I do think it could bring all humans closer together since all of a sudden each country/culture doesn't seem so different in light of a more advanced 'alien' for lack of a better word, species. It's easy to be dissillusioned and think there is no way that humans will come to together, just look at 911, everyone was Kumbaya for like 2 weeks and then business as usual. I disagree. This is larger and cuts to the essense of our entire species reality.

Agreed. In fact Freidman suggested that preservation of separate nation states was a reason for the coverup; the potential unifying effect is that great.

 

[Ezechiel]

Your a believer in ETH..So How could you we be on a par with a race of beings a billion years ahead of us just for arguments sake. I also very much doubt we have build technology similar to these craft in anyway.

This is a sore point

My base assumptions on this question are built on the following technological scale:

• A race a billion years ahead has little or no security concerns. Its preoccupations IMHO would be purely philosophical at best...
• A race a 1000 years ahead of us has built adequate defenses and is probably monitoring us while eating cheese puffs laughing at our attempts to get into full fledge space-age. (entertainment)
• A race 100 to 1000 years ahead of us (early space-faring age), is paranoid and would likely be monitoring/sampling/testing/creating hybrids to assess the scope of its own vulnerabilities in this physical world.... etc.
• Races at our stage of evolution or earlier could possibly serve as alien testing ground for all kinds of experimentation. A closed environment where your subjects can't escape is ideal.

IMHO, any race interested in this planet is likely in the 100-1000 earth year category (human brain speed is used as a reference). This is total speculation based strictly on security/survival concerns.

 

[Trajanus]

This is a sore point
IMHO, any race interested in this planet is likely in the 100-1000 earth year category (human brain speed is used as a reference). This is total speculation based strictly on security/survival concerns.

And rates of progress. It could be much slower elsewhere, faster, long stagnant or temporarily set back, so age may not be a reliable guide to technical level, policies etc.

 

[Ezechiel]

And rates of progress. It could be much slower elsewhere, faster, long stagnant or temporarily set back, so age may not be a reliable guide to technical level, policies etc.

Very true.... Europe was stuck in the dark ages for more than a 1000 years.

I'm also assuming a healthy rate of technological progress built on solid ethics that also prevent the self-destruction of the civilization.

I'm also assuming that these same ethics are part of any alien framework (if they follow the same basic scenario)... thus explaining why we are still here

 

[Trajanus]

I'm also assuming a healthy rate of technological progress built on solid ethics that also prevent the self-destruction of the civilization.

Self destruction wasn't avoided due to ethics but mutual deterrence.

I'm also assuming that these same ethics are part of any alien framework (if they follow the same basic scenario)... thus explaining why we are still here

Not necessarily. We could just be to valuable as a source of genes or food to destroy.....yet?

 

[Ezechiel]

Self destruction wasn't avoided due to ethics but mutual deterrence.

I've always wondered about the outcome if Adolf Hitler (who is at the bottom of the ethical ladder) had developped the A-Bomb first :question::exclamation:

 

[Rocketsauce]

I don't think so. Religion is on the ropes even now. Look at the shortage of catholic priests--few people take that stuff seriously enough anymore to be willing to accept the required sacrifices like celibacy. Basically religion has declined because of material and scientific progress. Even in the last century, ideological challenges to religion (e.g. communism) came fairly close to replacing it even though they didn't have a tenth of the progress we now have, or 1% of what'll exist in the future.




Agreed. In fact Freidman suggested that preservation of separate nation states was a reason for the coverup; the potential unifying effect is that great.

Perhaps your idea that religion is on the ropes is merely religion adapting once again to modern times.

I imagine that the idea that religion is fading may be influenced by media and the environment in which you live. If I lived in a small Hindu village in India rather than among highly secular urbanites in a city like New York, my perception of the state of religion today would probably be much different. I would imagine that in terms of numbers, secular people across the world are dwarfed by the sheer number of relgious people in the world. I don't have any stats at hand, just a hunch.

My wife still considers herself Catholic and I think she has broken most of the rules. During the cultural revolution I believe religion was not allowed, doesn't mean it disappeared though, it just became secretive and eventually was brought back once the revolution ended. How many times have Jews been told they can't practice their religion only to keep it alive and adapt it to their environment.

I would never underestimate human ability to modify religion to fit a present reality in line with ancient texts/rituals/beliefs. Even the Vatican has made changes over the years, although they have quite a ways to go before they will be offering free condoms within the local gay communities.

 

[Ezechiel]

I would never underestimate human ability to modify religion to fit a present reality in line with ancient texts/rituals/beliefs. Even the Vatican has made changes over the years, although they have quite a ways to go before they will be offering free condoms within the local gay communities.

When the numbers go down accomodations are made... for example:
Vatican welcomes Anglicans into Catholic church...
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/10/20/vatican.anglican.church/index.html

In other words.. if you have a problem with gay marriages and women priests you can join the catholics

When religious institutions adopt free market strategies are they really religions or niche support groups united in holy bigotry ?

 

[Trajanus]

I've always wondered about the outcome if Adolf Hitler (who is at the bottom of the ethical ladder) had developped the A-Bomb first :question::exclamation:

Of course he would've used it, just like the "ethical" allies did at Hiroshima, when they had a nuclear monopoly in wartime. But Stalin and Mao were obviously deterred.

 

[Trajanus]

Perhaps your idea that religion is on the ropes is merely religion adapting once again to modern times.

I imagine that the idea that religion is fading may be influenced by media and the environment in which you live.....I would imagine that in terms of numbers, secular people across the world are dwarfed by the sheer number of relgious people in the world. I don't have any stats at hand, just a hunch.

Sure the religious--at least nominally--still outnumber nonreligious, except in Europe. But stats do support the waning of religion. It's not just the shortage of priests. Polls have shown that even in the relatively religious US, the % of people who are christian fell from 86% to 76% since 1990. Inasmuch as believers tend to be older, the decline may quicken in future years. The only churches that have gained members are the evangelicals, which is symptotomatic of the decline of religion inasmuch as the evangelical churches have the least rules. Essentially the "adaptation" amounts to a progressive watering down of religion, prior to eventual death.

I would never underestimate human ability to modify religion to fit a present reality in line with ancient texts/rituals/beliefs.

This has been going on since the reformation, when the new protestant faith was better suited to modern, materialistic times. But in recent times things have gone much farther, and faster. Scientific knowledge cuts at the very core of belief. Now that we have Homo erectus and habilis, we can toss out the mythical adam and eve.

 

[Ezechiel]

Of course he would've used it, just like the "ethical" allies did at Hiroshima, when they had a nuclear monopoly in wartime. But Stalin and Mao were obviously deterred.

Here's a good book on the subject.
http://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/cup_detail.taf?ti_id=3530

Many assume that in international politics, and especially in war, "anything goes." Civil War general William Sherman said war "is all hell." The implication behind the maxim is that in war, as in hell, there is no order, only chaos; no mercy, only cruelty; no restraint, only suffering.

Ward Thomas finds that this "anything goes" view is demonstrably wrong. It neither reflects how most people talk about the use of force in international relations nor describes the way national leaders actually use military force. Events such as those in Europe during World War Two, in the Persian Gulf War, and in Kosovo cannot be understood, he argues, until we realize that state behavior, even during wartime, is shaped by common understandings about what is ethically acceptable and unacceptable.

Its a fairly complex issue. IMHO worth the read
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0801487412/?tag=rockoids-20

I think his conclusions should also apply to any extra-terrestial intervention. It still supports quite a range of hostile behaviors short of annihilation.

 

[Rocketsauce]

When the numbers go down accomodations are made... for example:
Vatican welcomes Anglicans into Catholic church...
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/10/20/vatican.anglican.church/index.html

In other words.. if you have a problem with gay marriages and women priests you can join the catholics

When religious institutions adopt free market strategies are they really religions or niche support groups united in holy bigotry ?

Yeah, I guess at some point we have to define 'Religion'. Are we discussing the major modern religions that exist today? Or as Paul Tillich discussed our individual perception of our - "Ultimate Concern" which is something that will always exist. 1 million years from now if the violent monkey's are still around will they still talk about Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, Mohammed or will a newer mythos supported by science take it's place?

Time to bust out the time machine. Grab Einstein and Doc Brown and let's hit 88mph!

 

[Ezechiel]

Yeah, I guess at some point we have to define 'Religion'. Are we discussing the major modern religions that exist today? Or as Paul Tillich discussed our individual perception of our - "Ultimate Concern" which is something that will always exist. 1 million years from now if the violent monkey's are still around will they still talk about Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, Mohammed or will a newer mythos supported by science take it's place?

Time to bust out the time machine. Grab Einstein and Doc Brown and let's hit 88mph!

Religions exist because people need them. They are a response to our existential anxieties and our lack of understanding of the physical world.

Science is taking over the job of understanding the physical world (and doing an excellent job by the way ) .... unfortunately the biblical interpretations of the physical world don't always match the scientific data.

Stuff like ET's are bound to to increase existential anxieties, so I'm not too worried about empty churches in the future

 

[Kieran]

This is a sore point

My base assumptions on this question are built on the following technological scale:

• A race a billion years ahead has little or no security concerns. Its preoccupations IMHO would be purely philosophical at best...
• A race a 1000 years ahead of us has built adequate defenses and is probably monitoring us while eating cheese puffs laughing at our attempts to get into full fledge space-age. (entertainment)
• A race 100 to 1000 years ahead of us (early space-faring age), is paranoid and would likely be monitoring/sampling/testing/creating hybrids to assess the scope of its own vulnerabilities in this physical world.... etc.
• Races at our stage of evolution or earlier could possibly serve as alien testing ground for all kinds of experimentation. A closed environment where your subjects can't escape is ideal.

IMHO, any race interested in this planet is likely in the 100-1000 earth year category (human brain speed is used as a reference). This is total speculation based strictly on security/survival concerns.

There could be a race out there that is that old a billion years' maybe not. Look at modern ufology over the last 60 years or so and try to access what we have seen and what we have not seen. Our best evidence for something different to us, is the craft seen and the beings observed. Anything beyond this is pure speculation. We have no idea to the advances they have in other areas, beside having the ability to create craft like the one's seen in ufology and to us the observer it a marvel.

I think we can conclude that we may have different beings and races coming here ... Now the logical way to go is, are UFOs every UFO, build by one society of many beings and are in fact coming from one place of origin or do we have many races visiting us, coming in their own version of their own style of craft and every race is coming from somewhere different.

Now how advanced they are will depend more on what we have not seen. We would have to observe everything and learn more than what we see in terms of craft.

 

[Kieran]

What is Religion seriously/ the believe in a supernatural entity is my take on it. It not hard to see that if God exists, he must be somewhere now, and where is the most likely scenarios for such a God living..take your pick from your theories for origins of UFOs. The bible claims God lives in the heavens.. in ancient times heavens usually was above us and out there in space.

Religion will always be there, even though it is shrinking in numbers. It will still be there in the twenty years or so. Disclosure is probably an unlikely event in my eyes. It will depend on what happens..is it just a release of information or is there going to be a parading of beings shown to the world. The first and second will get people thinking more about religion and what it has to say, the second more so for obvious reasons since we are not alone, and we can ask hopefully what is your take on religion.