If Disclosure happened, what would happen to the movement?

[Trajanus]

Religions exist because people need them. They are a response to our existential anxieties and our lack of understanding of the physical world.

Science is taking over the job of understanding the physical world (and doing an excellent job by the way )

Right.

.... unfortunately the biblical interpretations of the physical world don't always match the scientific data.

Yep, unfortunate for religion, not science.

Stuff like ET's are bound to to increase existential anxieties, so I'm not too worried about empty churches in the future

But it's possible that in the future, we'll be advanced enough to have an asnwer to them too, without beseeching some imaginary deity.

 

[Trajanus]

Religion will always be there, even though it is shrinking in numbers.

The implication of shrinking--in terms of commitment as well as numbers--is eventual extinction. Quite a few religions have already disappeared--Amun hasn't had adherants since c 800 CE IIRC.

 

[Kieran]

The implication of shrinking--in terms of commitment as well as numbers--is eventual extinction. Quite a few religions have already disappeared--Amun hasn't had adherants since c 800 CE IIRC.

Not really because the numbers who believe are not small. Millions upon millions believe still, as long as the wonder is still there it will be followed.

 

[Trajanus]

Not really because the numbers who believe are not small. Millions upon millions believe still, as long as the wonder is still there it will be followed.

Millions used to believe the world is flat, and witches are real. It depends on circumstances, and they obviously aren't favorable to religion. It's increasingly unneeded a an explanation for anything.

 

[Kieran]

Millions used to believe the world is flat, and witches are real. It depends on circumstances, and they obviously aren't favorable to religion. It's increasingly unneeded a an explanation for anything.

See you have not thought it out... The world was of course not flat and it was found out not to be the case purely by technology advances and exploration and witches was something cultures soon as time passed along figured out was silly.Everything you mentioned was discoverable as not being true, but religion like i said has a wonder, it can not be proven that God does not exist.

 

[Ezechiel]

.... unfortunately the biblical interpretations of the physical world don't always match the scientific data.

Yep, unfortunate for religion, not science.

Religions are relatively static in nature and the physical world very dynamic especially when viewed with cosmological, Darwinian, geological.... etc... perspectives. As a society we're still far from reconciling static views of the world with scientific observations and applications.

When you think that in 2009 we are only a couple of years away from the realization that intelligent design initiatives had religious foundations (after lengthy mind-numbing debates)....

Imagine pulling all the stops to push the idea of an extra-terrestrial presence ? (Thus crushing any idea of the universe as a unique and static story)

............ goood luck

 

[Rocketsauce]

Religions are relatively static in nature and the physical world very dynamic especially when viewed with cosmological, Darwinian, geological.... etc... perspectives. As a society we're still far from reconciling static views of the world with scientific observations and applications.

When you think that in 2009 we are only a couple of years away from the realization that intelligent design initiatives had religious foundations (after lengthy mind-numbing debates)....

Imagine pulling all the stops to push the idea of an extra-terrestrial presence ? (Thus crushing any idea of the universe as a unique and static story)

............ goood luck

Hasn't the Vatican publicly set the seeds for this "Disclosure" via Monsignor Balducci already?

 

[Rocketsauce]

How would the fact that ET's exist or the increase in our scientific knowledge destroy the Hindu, Buddhist, or other mystic religions? (yes, Hinduism contains a large element of mysticism at certain levels)

 

[Schuyler]

How would the fact that ET's exist or the increase in our scientific knowledge destroy the Hindu, Buddhist, or other mystic religions? (yes, Hinduism contains a large element of mysticism at certain levels)

Good point. I suspect that a knowledge of ETs and where they came from might increase the prestige of these religions, particularly if it turns out that the Inter-dimensional hypothesis is correct. They will be saying, "See? We were right!"

I also do not think religions are all that static and inflexible. Elizabeth Clare Prophet, who prophesied nuclear war, just died. Her followers are moving on, adjusting to the circumstances. Jesus didn't show up again like he was supposed to. This has not deterred the church much.

 

[Ezechiel]

How would the fact that ET's exist or the increase in our scientific knowledge destroy the Hindu, Buddhist, or other mystic religions? (yes, Hinduism contains a large element of mysticism at certain levels)

IMHO, they are flexible enough to adapt. Mysticism is wide open

 

[Ezechiel]

Hasn't the Vatican publicly set the seeds for this "Disclosure" via Monsignor Balducci already?

What he's saying is that they are not 'demons' and they need to be studied. (And he's addressing Roman Catholics - approx. 25% of US population)

http://www.ufodigest.com/balducci.html

Parallel information from National Security Council scientist Dr. Michael Wolf , a member of the NSC's SSG subcommittee for managing the UFO phenomenon, as well as from noted author and Vatican expert Father Malachi Martin, suggests that the Vatican is concerned that it will have a major doctrinal updating situation on its hands when extraterrestrial contact becomes authoritatively announced by world governments over the next several years

IMHO, that declaration was needed to prepare the church against the shockwave of any credible disclosure.

Regardless... the Vatican is not ready (doctrinal updating good grief lol), the populations are not ready (still debating over evolution vs creation).

Shockwave = In you face proof (debates are over) and your apologetical argumentation is not ready yet.

 

[Kieran]

How would the fact that ET's exist or the increase in our scientific knowledge destroy the Hindu, Buddhist, or other mystic religions? (yes, Hinduism contains a large element of mysticism at certain levels)

If the status quo in religions can not be proven to be wrong, then it can not be harmed or destroyed. Well Hindus do have many gods, but overall they still believe in one supreme being. Buddhists deal more in nature and past lives. Well born a Catholic and having the illusion that man was created in Gods image, the appearance of ET's that are completely different in appearance could cause a few headaches for the larger religions. The bible describes heaven where God and Jesus now are, no reference to beings from other worlds being there or the angels being anything other than human looking. Overall all Religions will have some type of debate happening if disclosure happened. The westerns faiths more so for obvious reasons.

 

[Trajanus]

Everything you mentioned was discoverable as not being true, but religion like i said has a wonder, it can not be proven that God does not exist.

But it can be proven--indeed largely already has been--that "god" is epistemically unnecessary. If it's no longer needed as an explanation for anything there's no basis for belief.

 

[Kieran]

But it can be proven--indeed largely already has been--that "god" is epistemically unnecessary. If it's no longer needed as an explanation for anything there's no basis for belief.

Look be honest GOD can not be proven by science to be not there and to claim otherwise is not true.Everyone is entitled to their belief' believer or not' as long it does not harm you or me.I think Religion has lost all meaning for me, because it has been corrupted by people over the years to cause wars and be greedy. The commandments was a good thing, who created them is anyone's guess, but everyone of those ten commandments have been corrupted and thrown away by people, so it no wonder we have lost our way and developed into the society we have become.

Look your belief does not have to come from a Pope or a Priest, you can can belief in something for yourself, you do not have to follow the bible, the testaments.I see many problems with all these writings and you can see the falsehoods within this writings if you look closely.But like i said the commandments was the best thing to come from religion. Do not take my word for it, look at them and see what you think.

 

[Trajanus]

GOD can not be proven by science to be not there and to claim otherwise is not true.

In fact, in science, anything that is epistemically unnecessary i.e. not needed as an explanation, and itself unobserved, is assumed not to exist i.e. is effectively disproven. In the 19th century some astronomers invoked a hypothetical planet called Vulcan to explain irregularities in the orbit of Mercury. Vulcan was never actually seen but was assumed to be necessary to explain something. But when general relativity explained the irregularities in Mercury's orbit, all belief in Vulcan ceased. Scientifically, its existence was disproven.

But like i said the commandments was the best thing to come from religion. Do not take my word for it, look at them and see what you think.

There have been moral codes at least since the time of Hammurabi. Religion needn't be the basis of such codes. All civilized societies discourage lying, theft, murder etc.

 

[Kieran]

In fact, in science, anything that is epistemically unnecessary i.e. not needed as an explanation, and itself unobserved, is assumed not to exist i.e. is effectively disproven. In the 19th century some astronomers invoked a hypothetical planet called Vulcan to explain irregularities in the orbit of Mercury. Vulcan was never actually seen but was assumed to be necessary to explain something. But when general relativity explained the irregularities in Mercury's orbit, all belief in Vulcan ceased. Scientifically, its existence was disproven.



There have been moral codes at least since the time of Hammurabi. Religion needn't be the basis of such codes. All civilized societies discourage lying, theft, murder etc.

I do not want to have long drawn out debate with you because in the end it is fruitless and we keep on disagreeing every time we post. Look science can only explain, what it knows and can not explain what it does not know' Science is a development and it will change and form new theories in the future and refute the old theories of today. Unobserved is pretty typical of the UFO topic.. not everyone has seen it and science for the most part can not explain it... does it make it untrue? now switch it around, others have claimed to have seen religious figures and family relatives who died and other things, does science explain it NO' Let us be honest please.

Those codes where far harsh to the ones given to Moses, but do you not agree with them as moral code for humanity? That is what i am trying to say to you, even if they existed before 'what they have to say has meaning.

 

[Trajanus]

Look science can only explain, what it knows and can not explain what it does not know'

It rejects what has no basis at all.

Science is a development and it will change and form new theories in the future and refute the old theories of today.

Not necessarily. Evolution is strengthened by every new discovery as are certain other theories.

Unobserved is pretty typical of the UFO topic.. not everyone has seen it and science for the most part can not explain it... does it make it untrue?

The phenomenon is very emprical, for in addition to MILLIONS of sightings, by credible obsevers, it includes physical evidence subject to scientific analysis.

now switch it around, others have claimed to have seen religious figures and family relatives who died and other things, does science explain it

AFAIK such sightings are far fewer, the witnesses aren't as credible as the astronomers, educators, pilots etc supporting UFOlogy, and there is little or no physical evidence.

what they have to say has meaning.

Even now, morality needs a better basis than fading religion.

 

[Drew UK]

Even now, morality needs a better basis than fading religion.

Keep going, what will that be?

Pure, applied scientific doctrine? Or a more normative guided principle which includes a bit of creativeness.

You can extinguish religion if you like, but you must be prepared to put something in its place - "a bit like mercury in your previous assertion".

Answer?

 

[Ezechiel]

Keep going, what will that be?

Pure, applied scientific doctrine? Or a more normative guided principle which includes a bit of creativeness.

You can extinguish religion if you like, but you must be prepared to put something in its place - "a bit like mercury in your previous assertion".

Answer?

An organic version of Isaac Asimov robot laws applied to humanity comes to mind... with a regulatory commission

My hunch is that aliens have no clue what a God might be... getting a fix on defining such a thing is like shooting in the dark LOL. Take a look at 'Ignosticism'... IMHO a healthy approach.

Taking a stand (without data) for or against any god entity is the most destructive force this planet has ever experienced.

 

[Trajanus]

Keep going, what will that be?

Some new secular ideology.

You can extinguish religion if you like, but you must be prepared to put something in its place

Right, or the result is degeneracy.