If Disclosure happened, what would happen to the movement?

[Drew UK]

Some new secular ideology.

Right, or the result is degeneracy.

Expand on a new secular ideology, that is able to resolve the question.
Else, a substitution is quite correctly degenerate - a paradox.

 

[Trajanus]

Expand on a new secular ideology

It's hard to predict its nature but whatever may come along, it'll have far more scientific knowledge to draw upon as its basis.

 

[DanielBrenton]

I would find it seriously amusing if, assuming there was a disclosure that we could believe was authentic, it proved that the UFO phenomenon had absolutely nothing to do with extraterrestrial races or nuts and bolts hardware.

Charlatans like Greer and Michael Salla would have to lay low for a few years and then find some other market of gullible idiots to parasite. Something in the New Age arena, no doubt.

(I'm sorry ... was that my "out loud" voice?)

 

[Trajanus]

I would find it seriously amusing if, assuming there was a disclosure that we could believe was authentic, it proved that the UFO phenomenon had absolutely nothing to do with extraterrestrial races or nuts and bolts hardware.

Yep it would be. But if there is no nuts and bolts, I don't think there'd be much to cover up, or present as proof.

Charlatans like Greer and Michael Salla

They're charlatans but not because they favor the ETH.

and then find some other market of gullible idiots to parasite. Something in the New Age arena, no doubt.

No, christianity, just like jimmy swaggert graham and a host of other swindlers. UFO charlatans don't make a tenth as much.

 

[Drew UK]

It's hard to predict its nature but whatever may come along, it'll have far more scientific knowledge to draw upon as its basis.

But to expect "something" to come along, is not the most rational of answers. In fact, it underlines the basis of religion of which you try to contradict.

Keep going. Lets talk science and mathematics.

 

[DanielBrenton]

Yep it would be. But if there is no nuts and bolts, I don't think there'd be much to cover up, or present as proof.

Trajanus, I think you're presuming a bit here. There are plenty of things that can be proven without dragging some wreckage or such out of a secret hangar for everyone to see. Relativity comes to mind, and electrons.

They're charlatans but not because they favor the ETH.

I did not state at any point that there is a linkage between being a charlatan and being a proponent of ETH. I started with an assumption -- I said, "I would find it seriously amusing if, assuming there was a disclosure that we could believe was authentic, it proved that the UFO phenomenon had absolutely nothing to do with extraterrestrial races or nuts and bolts hardware." With this I built on the assumption.

I am personally of the opinion the phenomenon has nothing to do with "other people's space ships," but for me to state that this is the truth of it would be as presumptuous as the disclosure groups claiming that it is. We don't know what the government agencies know.

No, christianity, just like jimmy swaggert graham and a host of other swindlers. UFO charlatans don't make a tenth as much.

You are of course entitled to this opinion, but it seems to me that if it was easy to be a fraud within a fundamentalist Christian context, Greer and Salla would have been doing it already and not bothered with their UFO crap. I suspect the level of "competition" in the Christian context is much higher.

The New Age "field" appears to be as open and as full of gullible followers as the UFO "field." I've attended more than enough New Age conferences to see the level of just plain hogwash the attendees were willing to eat up.

In any case, people like Greer and Salla will continue to exist as long as they have easy "marks" to live on.

 

[Trajanus]

But to expect "something" to come along, is not the most rational of answers.

20th century secular ideologies arose because of scientific and material progress up till then. Since such progress is continuing, it should give rise to a new secular ideology.

 

[Trajanus]

Trajanus, I think you're presuming a bit here. There are plenty of things that can be proven without dragging some wreckage or such out of a secret hangar for everyone to see. Relativity comes to mind, and electrons.

If the phenomenon were nonmaterial--which I don't believe--the only "proof" may be films of it, which wouldn't be as convincing as hardware since they can be faked. Unlike relativity and electrons, the phenomenon seldom shows itself to convince doubters.

I am personally of the opinion the phenomenon has nothing to do with "other people's space ships," but for me to state that this is the truth of it would be as presumptuous as the disclosure groups claiming that it is. We don't know what the government agencies know.

We certainly don't know everything that they know but there have been a number of crash retrieval reports, highly suggestive of a material, technological civilization.

 

[Kieran]

It rejects what has no basis at all.



Not necessarily. Evolution is strengthened by every new discovery as are certain other theories.



The phenomenon is very emprical, for in addition to MILLIONS of sightings, by credible obsevers, it includes physical evidence subject to scientific analysis.




AFAIK such sightings are far fewer, the witnesses aren't as credible as the astronomers, educators, pilots etc supporting UFOlogy, and there is little or no physical evidence.



Even now, morality needs a better basis than fading religion.

You have really shown your stance to how you judge other paranormal topics. You claim witnesses who have seen Ghosts of all kinds are less than credible to people who have seen UFOs' why' the job description and physical evidence. So are you saying that you know for a fact that people who have claimed to have seen ghosts where not pilots, astronomers, or educators. Your stance is coming from a place that you believe to be true, but i guarantee that if you did the research you would be very much mistaken.

Your view is all about science' if something can not be proven by todays science, is not relevant to you. Sorry, i come from a different stand point than you and here is to why, i will not be posting to the thread anymore.

My last point. You said religion will eventually disappear because of fading numbers and to you it not relevant for todays society. I have many problems with religion, but to claim it is not relevant to people is not true and really shows a lack of understanding to how others view religion. Religion will never disappear in the current form unless information comes to light that turns religion on it's head.

There is nothing to replace it and you can claim something will all you want. I still think you can never replace something that still has a wonder and covers the topic of life and death.

 

[Trajanus]

You claim witnesses who have seen Ghosts of all kinds are less than credible to people who have seen UFOs'

The whole concept is less credible. What is a "ghost" made of? At least the concept of an ET is scientifically and rationally acceptable.

Religion will never disappear in the current form unless information comes to light that turns religion on it's head.

To a considerable degree, that has happened already.

There is nothing to replace it and you can claim something will all you want. I still think you can never replace something that still has a wonder and covers the topic of life and death.

Even past, 20th century secular idelogies came fairly close to replacing it. Religion indeed relies on "wonder" i.e. ignorance, but science is dispelling that by degrees. Science and technology may conquer aging, and that'll be another nail into the coffin of that stuff.