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Jesus Invented By The Romans?

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brendell, as much as I like your post I have a few problems with it. I suggest, reading the Bible at point face value, is nothing more like our parents teaching us manners to begin with. If you would, please teach me otherwise. Not a staunch Atheist here, just Agnostic.
 
brendell, as much as I like your post I have a few problems with it. I suggest, reading the Bible at point face value, is nothing more like our parents teaching us manners to begin with. If you would, please teach me otherwise. Not a staunch Atheist here, just Agnostic.

Well, interesting... I'm not sure if I am qualified to teach on this subject matter. As I said the concept of the trinity is very difficult concept for us (well, at least me) to understand and I have no perfect analogy (nor does anyone else) to give to teach the concept. I was agnostic for many years... but my life experience combined with a deep understanding of nature (as I learned in graduate school in physics) has convinced me beyond a doubt on the existence of intelligent design about our universe. I tried to state the general reason (outside my personal/life experience) of why I believe. I only suggest for someone to read the source themselves as opposed to rely on someone else to do it for them. I believe the Bible (Gods inspired word) has everything in it that he wants us to have, so going to that source is the best reference around. Just out of curiosity, why do you feel that me (or anyone else) would be a better source than the Bible on this topic?
 
And typical of these topics, the hard bits get dodged

The flood story is preposterous, the tale is at odds with the math and physics
If the bible is inerrant, than can believers drink draino as it says ?

And of course no one wants to touch the fact that according to rabinical scholars JC of nazareth is NOT their messiah.

Which brings us full circle, did the Romans invent the character ?

The romans were having trouble with jewish resistance, Masada was a huge threat to their image

Masada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
To this very day mossad agents in taking their oath finish with "masada never again"

Jewish rebels were undermining romes authority, and doing it very well.

Suddenly we get a messiah who says

Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's,

Of course religious authorities then and even today didnt buy it, Its their tradition and prophesy after all, they should know right ?

And they say JC is a false messiah, and to worship him is idolatry.

Whats more likely ?, that a magic sky man knocks up a virgin, the resulting god man then goes around turning water into wine and bringing dead people back to life, or that the romans invented this character as a way of marginalising the jewish rebels who were giving them grief ?

Not only is it far more likely, its actually possible without breaking any of the laws of physics and other supernatural rubbish.

Its a simple elegant and elementary explanation that doesnt require any supernatural shenanigans

When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth

Sherlock Holmes

So far those defending this fairytale have offered not a single fact to support it

Arguing from a place of faith rather than facts is as transparent as it is stupid
 
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christian-logic-christian-bible-god-religion-1351867143.jpg


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Not only is it far more likely, its actually possible without breaking any of the laws of physics and other supernatural rubbish.

So, the laws of physics are above God, who created them? Now that makes no sense. God created the universe, therefore by definition, he is above and beyond that creation and the natural laws associated with it. I think he can do whatever he wants, even if it doesn't make sense to us.

You are right, we have come full circle.... all the academic scholars over the last 1000+ years missed this point and all its evidence, and it is such a big story that all of society is in a huge uproar over this late breaking news. Interesting.... This only points to one thing, there is no credible evidence that Jesus was made up by the Romans.
 
It seems to be that perhaps a few hundred years ago and prior to that it might have been more reasonable to swallow all those fantastic biblical tales but as man has become more and more scientific and questioning it is harder and harder to just believe all that with no justification. People are loathe to go against the religion of their fathers cos if you start to say you don't believe in a zombie prophet rising from the dead, you are basically illustrating that your family before you were fools for believing it all.

Rarely do the religious actively tackle the more 'out there' claims of established religion - no-one in this thread has actually stood up and said 'yes I believe in the resurrection, the flood etc,' it seems to me they would rather just avoid those particular topics because it's hard to argue for them without resorting to the 'faith' argument.
 
So, the laws of physics are above God, who created them? Now that makes no sense. God created the universe, therefore by definition, he is above and beyond that creation and the natural laws associated with it. I think he can do whatever he wants, even if it doesn't make sense to us.

You are right, we have come full circle.... all the academic scholars over the last 1000+ years missed this point and all its evidence, and it is such a big story that all of society is in a huge uproar over this late breaking news. Interesting.... This only points to one thing, there is no credible evidence that Jesus was made up by the Romans.


Actually the very clear, very obvious parallels presented here


Do provide credible evidence the story was made up

The laws of physics do not require a god to have made them


The Special Pleading is being done by theists who claim that the universe is too complicated to come about uncaused by a "creator" but that their god needs none.
Special pleading - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

People who realize that the universe is naturalistic and does not need a creator don't go around speculating about whether or not gods need creators, because there is no need to drag supernatural myths into science.

If the Universe needs a creator, why doesn't god?
If god doesn't need a creator, why does the Universe ?-

According to Hawking, physics can explain many things in life and of the Universe, even without the presence of a “benevolent creator”. An excerpt from the book explains Hawking’s rather controversial view that physics law such as gravity makes it possible for the Universe to create itself out of nothing. “Spontaneous creation is the reason that is something rather than nothing”, he writes, “It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the Universe going.”

But to play with the god can do what he wants idea, why did he do this ?

Act of God: Jesus zapped by lightning bolt | Godchecker GodBlog

Clearly god is not happy with the jesus lie

SpriteBlowJesusStatue5.jpg


(i have it on good authority Zeus found this statue offensive and did the deed :))

Of course thiests say this was a random act of nature, not an act of god.
 
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And i see no one wants to touch the Jewish pov

Jesus Invented By The Romans? | Page 5 | The Paracast Community Forums

What is the Truth?
Is there then any truth in this term, "Judeo-Christian"? Is Christianity derived from Judaism? Does Christianity have anything in common with Judaism?
Reviewing the last two thousand years of Western Christian history there is really no evidence of a Judeo-Christian tradition and this has not escaped the attention of honest Christian and Jewish commentators.
The Jewish scholar Dr. Joseph Klausner in his book Jesus of Nazareth expressed the Judaic viewpoint that "there was something contrary to the world outlook of Israel" in Christ's teachings, "a new teaching so irreconcilable with the spirit of Judaism, " containing "within it the germs from which there could and must develop in course of time a non-Jewish and even anti-Jewish teaching."


Gershon Mamlak, an award-winning Jewish Zionist intellectual, recently claimed that the "Jesus tradition" is essentially the ultimate extension of ancient Greek Hellenism and is in direct conflict to Judaism's "role as the Chosen people".

Evidently the concept of a common Judeo-Christian tradition has more to do with post 1945 politics and a certain amount of 'public relations' than it does with historical and Biblical reality. Never the less a number of modern Christian polemicists have managed to rest certain New Testament verses in the drive to give a Scriptural basis to their argument.
Confusion over the origin of Rabbinic Judaism and Christianity is the root of the Judeo-Christian myth.

Yet such a decidedly Christian Zionist outlook is to say the least, wildly simplistic and profoundly ahistorical. As the astute Jewish writer, Joshua J. Adler, points out, "The differences between Christianity and Judaism are much more than merely believing in whether the messiah already appeared or is still expected, as some like to say."
The comments of Jewish author Mr. S. Levin may well explain the Christian's need for the Judeo-Christian myth. Writing in the Israeli journal Biblical Polemics, Levin concludes: "'After all, we worship the same God', the Christian always says to the Jew and the Jew never to the Christian. The Jew knows that he does not worship the Christ-God but the Christian orphan needs to worship the God of Israel and so, his standard gambit rolls easily and thoughtlessly from his lips. It is a strictly unilateral affirmation, limited to making a claim on the God of Israel but never invoked with reference to other gods. A Christian never confronts a Moslem or a Hindu with 'After all, we worship the same God'."
Back in 1992 both Newsweek magazine and the Israeli Jerusalem Post newspaper simultaneously printed extensive articles scrutinising the roots of the sacrosanct Judeo-Christian honeymoon!
The statement heading the Newsweek article read: "Politicians appeal to a Judeo-Christian tradition, but religious scholars say it no longer exists." The Jerusalem Post article's pull quote announced: "Antisemitism is a direct result of the Church's teachings, which Christians perhaps need to re-examine."
"For scholars of American religion," Newsweek states, "the idea of a single Judeo-Christian tradition is a made-in-America myth that many of them no longer regard as valid." It quotes eminent Talmudic scholar Jacob Neusner: "Theologically and historically, there is no such thing as the Judeo-Christian tradition. It's a secular myth favoured by people who are not really believers themselves."
Newsweek cites authorities who indicate that "the idea of a common Judeo-Christian tradition first surfaced at the end of the 19th century but did not gain popular support until the 1940s, as part of an American reaction to Nazism . . ," and concludes that, "Since then, both Jewish and Christian scholars have come to recognize that -- geopolitics apart -- Judaism and Christianity are different, even rival religions


The fact is, The original root of the tradition (judaism) does not recognise christianity as valid, it does not recognise JC as the messiah because he did not fulful the messianic prophecys.
The common dodge that he will do so in his second coming, is also at odds with the original texts, this inconsistancy is incompatable with an all knowing god, but totally compatable with an invented messiah.

Its kinda funny how those who keep quoting "scholars" to back up their claims, ignore the Talmudic scholars who for thousands of years have been saying JC is not the messiah.

A more honest representation would be to say "christian scholars" and in doing so recognise the inherant bias in that context.

Talmudic/rabbinical scholars have a totally different pov.

To use the singular "scholars" is to try and paint a false picture of consensus on the matter, where clearly none exists.

The fact remains according to the very tradition on top of which the JC story is constructed, the character is a false messiah

Faith that it is otherwise doesnt change the facts
 
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The laws of physics do not require a god to have made them

The laws of physics are connected with the universe. If the universe was created, for which there is *strong* evidence from current cosmological and physics theory (big bang), then the laws of physics are also created.

If the Universe needs a creator, why doesn't god?
If god doesn't need a creator, why does the Universe ?

The Bible says in the very first verse that God created the heavens and earth. Therefore, God existed before the heavens (or universe), so he does come first. The Bible in many places states that God always existed and there is no beginning or end with him. Since there are other basic truths revealed in the Bible, and that God does not lie, then this statement is true also. I don't think anyone can disprove that God has always existed. If you can, then please tell us.

In the end, I think science will confirm what scripture says. Science is making huge progress and I believe it supports what the Bible says. The good thing with science, is that we get to learn all of the gory details!
 
The laws of physics are connected with the universe. If the universe was created, for which there is *strong* evidence from current cosmological and physics theory (big bang), then the laws of physics are also created.



The Bible says in the very first verse that God created the heavens and earth. Therefore, God existed before the heavens (or universe), so he does come first. The Bible in many places states that God always existed and there is no beginning or end with him. Since there are other basic truths revealed in the Bible, and that God does not lie, then this statement is true also. I don't think anyone can disprove that God has always existed. If you can, then please tell us.

In the end, I think science will confirm what scripture says. Science is making huge progress and I believe it supports what the Bible says. The good thing with science, is that we get to learn all of the gory details!

Actually the onus is on you to prove god exists which you cannot, as for god lying he told the first one :rolleyes:

Well...... if jesus is god then yes he did

Jesus Lied

(Genesis 2:16-17) And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.”

But of course they did not die that day, they went on to have children.

God did lie. They did not die on the day that they eat of it. The serpent showed Adam and Eve more respect by telling them the truth. They would not die, but they would become more godlike by knowing good from evil. This is exactly what happened to them. Mankind was not made to live physically forever as they did not get to eat from the tree of life. "Immortality they shall not have" said God. So, mankind was created mortal and Adam and Eve did not die as a result of eating the fruit.
It is popular to say that they suffered a spiritual death by eating the fruit. The Bible does not say that. It just says death. No where in the book of Genesis is Adam and Eve's spirit- soul ever mentioned.




And if the bible is gods word, then yes he lied, the ark story is complete bullshit

The Impossible Voyage of Noah's Ark | NCSE


On the same topic, there's a listing here of what the Dallas Zoo requires on a daily basis, to feed the animals. If you go by the literal definition of the ark's cargo there were millions of animals on it. Obviously that's because the people who invented the ark legend didn't know anything about the animal kingdom and the huge variety of creatures in it, so didn't realize how absurd the idea was. But reality aside, if you say there was just one representative pair of animals of each species, and that super fast reproduction and evolution/mutation enabled one type of beetle to turn into the hundreds of thousands of types we see today, you could say that there was a manageable number of animals on the ark. So less than the Dallas Zoo, but still thousands of creatures.
Here's what the Dallas zoo needs every single day.
  • A ton of hay
  • 35 pounds of fish
  • 50 pounds of meat
  • 100 stalks of celery
  • five pounds of red onions
  • 100 pounds of carrots
  • 25 pounds of spinach
  • 15 pounds of kale
  • 10 pounds of mixed vegetables
  • 150 pounds of sweet potatoes
  • 10 heads of cabbage
  • 48 heads of romaine
  • 30 ears of corn
  • four loaves of wheat bread
  • 24 eggs
  • a pound of yogurt
  • 40 pounds of bananas
  • eight pounds of blueberries
  • 170 oranges
  • 500 apples
  • 36 cantaloupes
  • four papayas
  • 250 rodents (the variety pack)
  • 6000 mealworms
  • 600 wax worms
  • 7500 crickets
Remember, it rained for 40 days/nights, and then they had to wait around for the water to drain away (again, where did it go?) for some more weeks. This list of food is what the Dallas Zoo needs every day. Multiply this by 370 days... Say that Noah only needed half a ton of hay a day. That's 180 plus tons of hay for the whole cruise. Exactly where did they keep this? How did they gather it all in advance of the rain? If you gathered 100 pounds of hay every day, it would take you 20 days per ton. So you'd have to do nothing but gather hay for 600 days to get 30 tons together.
The funny thing to me about Noah's Ark believers is that they not only want to believe in the whole happy little fairy tale, but that they keep trying to defend it scientifically!


The bible is one big lie, from the creation account thru to the flood and the jesus lie.

It is nothing more than institutionalized ignorance
 
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But back to the elephant in the room......

Talmudic scholars say JC is not the messiah according to their prophesys and tradition, Thus he is an invented one.
They didnt invent him, so who did ?

Odd that he turns up at the same time as the romans had invaded.

The romans had the means, the motive and the Opportunity


According to Jesus’ admissions, as well as the Bible’s prophecies, Jesus of Nazareth could not have been the Messiah. This of course, would invalidate Christianity as we know it. The compilation presented here shall be split in three sections. The first shall be the biblical prophecies that were made in order to identify the messiah, which Jesus does not fulfill. The second shall be the prophecies that Christians use to say that Jesus was the Messiah, yet they clearly fail. The third set shall be the prophecies and statements Jesus made yet they are false and have never came true.
Jesus is a False Messiah
 
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religious-logic-illogical-god-humans-fault-religion-1369424580.jpg



Which brings us back to this example

When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)

It is human reflex to try and catch a falling object, weve all done it, it happens usually without concious thought, we just react.

If god created man, then it stands he must also have created reflex action

Uzzah's reflex action aside, his intent was benign, he just wanted to make sure the ark didnt fall off the cart and get damaged.
No court in civilised society would put a man to death for such intent.

Yet god does just that, personally strikes and kills him.

To me this is proof positive god kills directly, and for reasons that can only be described as evil.

The usual apoligy for god, "oh well he was told not to touch it" doesnt negate the reality god killed him directly.
Nor does it justify killing him imo, since the action was in the nature of reflex and with good intentions.

If disobeying god is grounds for the death penalty then what sort of hateful monster is he ?

Numbers 15:32-36“When the Israelites were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the sabbath day. Those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses, Aaron, and to the whole congregation. They put him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. Then the Lord said to Moses, ‘The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him outside the camp.’ The whole congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death, just as the LORD had commnaded Moses.”

For six days work is to be done, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day is to be put to death.


Actions speak louder than words, i dont see a kind and loving entity in these acts, i see a moral monster
 
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Out of interest Breddel were there dinosaurs on the ark ?

These "biblical scholars say YES"

Were dinosaurs on Noah's Ark?

The story we have all heard from movies, television, newspapers, and most magazines and textbooks is that dinosaurs ‘ruled the Earth’ for 140 million years, died out 65 million years ago, and therefore weren’t around when Noah and company set sail on the Ark around 4300 years ago.
However, the Bible gives a completely different view of Earth (and therefore, dinosaur) history. As God’s written Word to us, we can trust it to tell the truth about the past

In Genesis 6:19–20, the Bible says that two of every sort of land vertebrate (seven pairs of the ‘clean’ animals) were brought by God to the Ark. Therefore, dinosaurs (land vertebrates) were represented on the Ark.



And the biblical age of earth

These "biblical scholars" say about 6000 years according to the bible

The Earth Is 6000 Years Old

The Bible provides a complete genealogy from Adam to Jesus. You can go through the genealogies and add up the years. You'll get a total that is just over 4,000 years. Add the 2,000 years since the time of Jesus and you get just over 6,000 years since God created everything.

Is there anything wrong with figuring out the age of the earth this way? No. There is nothing to indicate the genealogies are incomplete. There is nothing to indicate God left anything out. There is nothing in the Bible that indicates in any way that the world is much older than 6,000 years old.
The Bible does tell us, however, that the fossils we find could not have been buried before God created Adam. The animals whose bones became fossilized had to have died after God created Adam. That means those fossils must be less than 6,000 years old.



There is just so much data that proves this book is nonsense, its embarrasing isnt it ?
 
To many, it will seem bizarre that, in this age of scientific advancement and sophisticated biblical criticism, it would be necessary to provide a point-by-point scientific refutation of the story of Noah's ark. Knowledgeable people are well aware that Genesis 1 through 11 is not scientific or historical but largely mythical, metaphorical, poetic, theological, and moral. All people are not knowledgeable, however. Recent Gallup surveys reveal that 50 percent of adult Americans believe that Adam and Eve existed, 44 percent believe the earth was created directly by God only ten thousand years ago, and 40 percent believe that the Bible is inerrant. No doubt an equally high percentage believe in Noah's ark.
This state of affairs has prompted some to advocate more public exposure to the higher criticism. But fundamentalists are generally opposed to the conclusions of the higher critics, and many other people don't seem interested in studying the Bible that closely. This means that another approach is often needed—one that deals directly with the "scientific creationist" arguments concerning the ark and the flood. Only after the creationist arguments have been scientifically answered will many people consider seriously the conclusions of modern biblical scholars.
This is why Robert Moore, in this issue of Creation/Evolution, has accepted the task of providing a direct and definitive response to the creationist Noah's ark arguments. In performing this task, Moore has found it necessary to take creationists at their word that the Bible must be read literally. He knows this position is untenable, and his article helps prove it. But proceeding in this way has allowed him to better focus on the creationists' scientific errors.
Though Moore uses the Bible as a constant reference point, he actually does not engage in biblical criticism. His critique is rather directed at the leading creationist books and experimental studies that seek to scientifically prove that the ark story can be treated as secular history. He knows how deadly serious creationists are about the historicity of the ark account. This seriousness is evidenced by the large expenditures creationists make on expeditions to Mt. Ararat, the meticulous and weighty tomes they write to answer every possible objection, and the efforts they take to encourage widespread public and private school use of books such as Streams of Civilization, their world history text that treats the ark story as an actual event.
So Moore must take the creationists almost as seriously as they take themselves. The result is detailed but, hopefully, entertaining and informative, with the excellent side benefits of providing fascinating information on shipbuilding, seafaring, zookeeping, zoology, botany, volcanism, and even refuse disposal.

The Impossible Voyage of Noah's Ark
 
Who killed the first born of egypt ? including the animals ?

God

And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT) ...

Your example above was the first one that really got me thinking about the biblical God and the nature of good and evil. That was decades ago, and I've come a long way since then, but the lesson is still as true today as it was when I first encountered it. The reason that it made such an impression on me is because I saw it acted out in a movie. I think it was The Ten Commandments, and although I knew it was only a movie, it was based on the actual story, and it was so awful, with mothers screaming crying as their children were killed by God.

I knew then and there that either this God was evil, or the mythology had gotten it wrong and this was not the work of God. Either way there was a big problem with the Bible. If it was God, then this evil entity didn't deserve to wear the crown and sit on the Heavenly throne, and it certainly would be no God I would worship, and if it wasn't God that had done this evil deed, then the Bible was wrong. Consequently the Bible became a much more interesting book, and to this day I will not kneel in any church before this deity. It is undeserving.

I've heard all kinds of excuses for God's behavior since then and none of them stand up to scrutiny. Religious people retort by claiming that we are in no position to judge God because he is beyond our understanding. Apart from the fact that this is an admission of ignorance, it's also wrong according to their own bible. It says right in Genesis that when we ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge we became as Gods, knowing good and evil. Therefore since God himself says we do know the difference between good and evil just as the gods do, we are in a position to judge as well as God himself. Consequently any normal person can instantly tell that it's evil to punish children for the crimes of their parents. There are no excuses.

When I realized the above, it came almost as a revelation, and I began to ask questions like, if this mythology is true and God isn't responsible, then what kind of beings could would be capable of delivering genetically targeted weapons of death? What kind of beings would go before the tribes in a pillar of fire by night and a pillar of cloud by day? What other advanced weaponry did these beings have? It gets rather fascinating if one can let go of their religious baggage and take an objective look.
 
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The Nature of the Story
When one reads the story of the great flood in the book of Genesis, one is struck by the matter-of-fact style of the narrative. While it definitely has the larger-than-life flavor typical of legends, the reader would not suspect that he or she is dealing with the bizarre impossibilities we have detailed above. After all, the ancient Hebrews lived on a small, disc-shaped world with a dome overhead and waters above and below. There were only a few hundred known animals, and subjects such as ecology, genetics, and stratigraphy were not even imagined. The deluge was a mighty act of God, to be sure, but nothing that the ancient Hebrews would have found too extraordinary.
When, however, this same story is brought into the twentieth century and insisted upon as a literal account of historical events, a considerable change is observed. No longer a simple folk tale, it has become a surrealistic saga of fantastic improbabilities. Events which seem relatively straightforward at first glance—building a boat, gathering animals, releasing them afterwards—become a caricature of real life. The animals themselves are so unlike any others that they may as well have come from another planet; genetic Frankensteins with completely unnatural social, reproductive, and dietary behavior, they survived incredible hazards yet remained amazingly hardy and fecund.
In fact, these sixty-eight verses of Scripture, when interpreted literally, are crammed with more miracles than any comparable piece of literature anywhere on earth—miracles that are often pointlessly complicated and unedifying. Building one large ship of wood rather than many small ones, landing it on a volcano instead of a plain, preserving all five varieties of venereal disease while permitting thousands of species to become extinct—these examples plus more add up to a thoroughly senseless level of supernaturalism. If there was ever a situation in which Hume's distinction between the credibility of miracles and the credibility of miracle-tellers applies, this is it.
How can we account for this transformation? Put simply, the tale of the ark grows taller in inverse proportion to the advance of science. Two centuries ago, when biology and geology were in their infancy, the theory of a worldwide flood as a major event in the earth's physical history seemed perfectly plausible and, in fact, was advocated by various scientists.

But as geology progressed and as evolution gradually achieved a position of fundamental importance, the concepts of biblical literalists were shown to be untenable and were falsified. At the same time, the disciplines of biblical criticism, comparative religion, and archaeology uncovered the true origins of these stories and myths and showed that they were a natural part of the religious development of the Near East.
The Nature of Creation-Science
Most people, including most Christians, have been able to accommodate themselves quite satisfactorily to these changes. But there are others who cannot and who, with a flush of bravado, have clung tighter to their beliefs the more impossible they have become.
We would ask the creationists if they would consider simpler alternatives to their present ark theory. Since one ship is far too small, how about several? Since eight people are far too few, why not crew the ark with eighty? For that matter, what is wrong with having a flood of many years, long enough to accomplish everything diluviologists demand, during which righteous Noah and his family were whisked to safety aboard a fiery chariot, Elijah-style, with the animals and plants simply being re-created afterwards? These or any number of additional hypotheses would simplify the story and would require substantially fewer miracles. Even re-creating all life would expend far less divine energy than the complicated manipulations needed to preserve it.
But merely to pose such questions is to answer them, for the creationists already "know" what occurred and seek only to confirm it. As Henry Morris concludes, "But the main reason for insisting on the universal flood as a fact of history and as the primary vehicle for geological interpretation is that God's word plainly teaches it! No geologic difficulties, real or imagined, can be allowed to take precedence over the clear statements and necessary inference of Scripture" (1970, p. 33).
It is within this framework that creation "science" sets about its task, with the predictable result being nothing more than old-fashioned apologetics—just enough rhetoric to assuage the doubts of those who are ready to believe anyway. Most of the difficulties, from ancient shipbuilding skills through the destructiveness of the storm to the landing on an active volcano, are swept aside with one or two irrelevant comments. What little research is done, such as on the hardiness of seeds or the capacity of freight trains, is vitiated by considerations so simple they seem hard to overlook. Ad hoc hypotheses, such as the theory of kinds or the hibernation model, are cooked up to suit the occasion, reminding one of historian W. E. H. Lecky's remark about "the tendency . . . to invent, without a shadow of foundation, the most elaborate theories of explanation rather than recognize the smallest force in an objection" (1:345). By the time we read of fish adapting to the "gradual" change in salinities or of dinosaurs "somehow surviving" outside, we begin to wonder if the creationists can take themselves seriously.

When even these nonsensical suggestions fail, the apologists have no qualms about resorting to the interpretive wastebasket: miracles. Had there been any scenario for the gathering of the animals and for their care aboard the ark which had any semblance of plausibility, we can be sure that it would be highly touted as "proof" of the scientific accuracy of Genesis. As it is, a virtue is made of necessity and we are told that the supernatural is an essential element demonstrating the divine character of the catastrophe (Whitcomb, 1973, pp. 17-42).
But since miracles are by definition violations of the laws of nature and hence beyond experimental scrutiny, any theory that must employ them loses its status as science. As Mueller has recently written, "Science . . . became a unique attempt to explain the observed world in its own terms—that is, without introducing supernatural forces. In all history, science has never been forced to resort to a supernatural or miraculous hypothesis to explain a phenomenon" (p. 17). Yet for creationism, the deluge, with its miraculous rescue of the animals, is not a minor incidental but a key feature. Without it there is no creationist explanation for sedimentation, orogeny, large-scale erosion, fossils, coal and oil, glaciation—or even the phenomena of migration and hibernation. The universal flood is a part of all "scientific" creation models and of most draft creationism legislation being pushed across the nation. Yet by its proponents' own canons, it is not scientific and consequently has no more business in the science classroom than a ghost story.
The Failure of the Effort
It has by now become abundantly clear that the case for the ark utterly and completely fails. Despite the clever ingenuity of its proponents, nothing, from the trickiest problems to the tiniest details, can be salvaged without an unending resort to the supernatural. This includes so many pointless prodigies, so many inane interventions for no reason other than to save a literalistic Bible, that religion itself is cheapened in the process, not to mention the total abandonment of any semblance of science. No doubt in days to come some erstwhile arkeologists will concoct "solutions" to some of the difficulties we have raised, but no intellectually honest person can any longer pretend that the legend of Noah can possibly represent a historical occurrence.
It is also quite obvious that the creationists are not engaged in any meaningful search for the truth concerning origins. They are committed in advance to a particular creed, and the facts exist only to be explained away. Apparently they are not even sincerely curious about prehistory, since they maintain that Genesis contains all the information on this subject that we need to know. As Henry Morris writes, "If we are to know anything about the creation—when it was, what methods were used, what order of events occurred, or anything else—we must depend completely on divine revelation" (1977, p. 14).

In fact, the real raison d'etre for the entire creationist movement has nothing to do with science at all; it is evangelism pure and simple. Kofahl candidly confesses that
"supposedly scientific theories such as evolution which contradict the Bible can cause some people to doubt the Bible and thus hinder them from coming in humble faith to Jesus Christ for salvation" (p. 141).
In the specific instance of Noah's ark, its "confirmed discovery . . . would open the door for witnessing to many people who may before have been indifferent"
(John Morris, 1973, p. 109)
and "our attention should then be focused on . . . our present day Ark of Salvation, Jesus Christ"
(Ikenberry, p. 69).
Before our eyes, creationism—complete with seminars, debates, institutes, "technical" journals, and major campaigns to sabotage public education and scientific autonomy—dissolves into nothing more than a scheme to proselytize conversion to fundamentalism.
Our study of the epic of Noah has two results: we have shown beyond any reasonable question that such a voyage never took place and could not possibly have ever occurred. And we have demonstrated that those who accept this tale are using not knowledge but faith—faith of that irrational variety expressed in the old quip as "believing something that you know isn't true."
 
Out of interest Breddel were there dinosaurs on the ark ?


There is just so much data that proves this book is nonsense, its embarrasing isnt it ?

Pretty funny...

I don't think so. The Bible doesn't mention anything about dinosaurs. It also doesn't give a good timeline to say when the flood happened, but certainly when humans were around as it is recorded by several civilizations. It doesn't say how long the creation days were or if there were gaps between them. It [the Bible] can certainly support old earth theory and be consistent with science that tells us it is ~4.5 billion years old. I see not contradictions.

I wasn't there and neither were you, so I don't know what animals were put there and really don't care. Does knowing how many animals were on the ark change the story and purpose of Jesus?

What is embarrassing is to think there is no intelligent design behind the universe and to think that life randomly developed... the odds are so low that it is as close to zero as you can get.
 
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