Jesus Invented By The Romans?

[breddell]

Noah's ark story is possible....

Could the ark really contain all the animals of the world? Again the answer is "Yes." But let's look in more detail. The ark took about 120 years to build. Noah was 480 years old when he began the work and he had the help of his wife, three sons, and his son's wives. He probably hired local people to help in the construction.
The dimensions of the ark have a ratio of six to one. The Ark was six times longer than it was wide. This is the best ratio for modern ship building. Model stability tests have shown that the design is stable for waves up to 200 feet high and that the ark could have rotated 90 degrees and still righted itself.
The volume of the ark would be 450 feet long by 75 feet wide by 45 feet high. This equals 1,518,750 cubic feet and is comparable to 569 modern railroad boxcars. Therefore each boxcar, by comparison, would be 1,518,750 divided by 569, or 2,669 cubic feet of space. The average size of an animal on the earth is smaller than a cat. But, just to keep it safe let's consider the average size of an animal to be a sheep. The average double deck stock car holds 240 sheep. The Ark capacity would be about 569 x 240 equaling 136,560 animals of that size. However, that still is not accurate for our needs. Since most birds, reptiles, and amphibians are much smaller, let's double the boxcar capacity for them. Therefore, the boxcars could each hold 480 different kinds of birds, reptiles, amphibians.
Noah had to take two or seven of every kind of animal on the earth. Though it is not really known exactly what is meant by a biblical kind, it is generally considered to be animals that are fertile within their own groups. Any dog can breed with any dog, therefore, dogs are one kind. It would only be necessary to bring representatives of each kind since the parents could produce offspring that would carry the genetic information for all variations within their kind.

• Classification . . . . Number of Species . . . . Number of Kinds on the Ark
• Mammals . . . . . . . . .3,700 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3,700 (a few live in water).
• Birds . . . . . . . . . . . . 8,600 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 60,200 (seven pairs according to Gen. 7:3)
• Reptiles. . . . . . . . . . .6,300 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6,300
• Amphibians. . . . . . . .2,500 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2,500
• Fishes. . . . . . . . . . . .20,600. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .zero
• Other marine life . . . 192,605. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .zero
• Insects . . . . . . . . . . . 850,000 . . . (Since insects are very small, and a great many could be stored in a small area, calculation would be difficult.)
• Total . . . . . . . . . . . .1,072,305 . . . . . . . . . . . . .72,700

The total number of mammals would be 3,700 times two pair which equals 7,400 animals. 7,400 divided by 240 = 31 boxcars used.
Since Gen. 7:3 says to take seven pairs of every bird then the total for birds would be 8,600 times two pair times 7 or 120,400 animals. 120,400 x 480 = 250 boxcars. The reptiles and amphibians would be 6,300 plus 2,500 or 8,800. 8,800 times two pair equals 17,600 animals. 17,600 divided by 480 = 37 boxcars.
The total number of boxcars used would be 318 with a total number of animals at 145,400. There would be 251 boxcars left over. That means that only 56% of the ark would be used for storing the animals. Obviously, then, the rest of the space would be used for food for the people and animals and sleeping quarters. In addition, considering that insects are extremely small, it is easily conceivable that they could be housed in part of the remaining space.
It should also be considered that many animals can hibernate. Additionally, predators and prey have been known to live peacefully together during situations of stress like fire, flood, or earthquake. In the Ark, animal behavior probably would have been different from normal daily life. Specialists in animal behavior have noted that animals can sense danger and have often migrated to escape it. Perhaps God used their migratory instincts to get them to the Ark.
Though this is only a brief analysis, it should present enough evidence that the Ark account is certainly within the realm of possibility.

 

[mike]

Pretty funny...

I don't think so. The Bible doesn't mention anything about dinosaurs. It also doesn't give a good timeline to say when the flood happened, but certainly when humans were around as it is recorded by several civilizations. It doesn't say how long the creation days were or if there were gaps between them. It [the Bible] can certainly support old earth theory and be consistent with science that tells us it is ~4.5 billion years old. I see not contradictions.

I wasn't there and neither were you, so I don't know what animals were put there and really don't care. Does knowing how many animals were on the ark change the story and purpose of Jesus?

What is embarrassing is to think there is no intelligent design behind the universe and to think that life randomly developed... the odds are so low that it is as close to zero as you can get.

And yet these biblical scholars say the bible does confirm dinosuars on the ark

Were dinosaurs on Noah's Ark?

Does it change the jesus narrative, of course it does if the bible is just a silly fiction then we must question the veracity of all of it, including the jesus story

 

[mike]

Ah the old boxcar theory

All of this would have constituted a tremendous weight. Filby would put a mere hundred tons of animals aboard, with a few thousand tons of supplies (cited by Montgomery, p. 58). However, a mature sheep (the creationists' average-sized animal) weighs 120 pounds, and at this rate the vertebrates alone would exceed 4,500 tons. When the huge volume of food and drinking water, the hundreds of thousands of gallons in the aquaria, and the giant dinosaurs and prehistoric mammals are included, it is clear that the ark would have sunk like a brick the moment it was launched.
At this stage, further discussion of the overcrowding becomes rather pointless. We leave the conundrum in the laps of the creationists, recalling the words of theologian Johannes Weiss, "The apologists . . . can get the better of any historical result whatever" (quoted in Schweitzer, p. 234). Perhaps God performed a miraculous miniaturization on the animals; as the flood legend takes on more and more of an Alice-in-Wonderland air, anything becomes possible.
Before moving on, we must briefly take note of an argument so popular that nearly every ark theorist uses it: that the interior of the ark could have held literally hundreds of standard-sized railroad stock cars and thus was quite roomy.

But while the figures for rail car size and capacity are cited with fair accuracy, ignored is the federal law which requires a train on a long haul to stop every twenty-eight hours, to unload the stock, to feed and water them, and to give them a five-hour rest period (Ensminger, p. 1062). This may be just a minor inconvenience to American ranchers, but it would have been quite impossible for Noah. Thus the analogy collapses. The fact that every creationist has triumphantly trotted out his train statistics, yet overlooked this decisive flaw, demonstrates once again the sloppiness of creationists' research

 

[mike]

Sanitation and Water Disposal
The mention of waste brings attention to that problem. All authorities on animal care insist on the cleanliness of the stalls, urging the daily removal of waste and soiled bedding. Neubuser remarks that "the removal of zoo waste presents almost insuperable difficulties" (p. 170); on the ark these must have multiplied manyfold. Creationists Balsiger and Sellier suggest that the bottom deck was used to store slurry, which accumulated to 800 tons during the voyage. However, a single adult elephant could produce 40 tons during this time (Coe), and there were many creatures even larger. Our average animal, the sheep, produces 0.34 tons per year; poultry, 0.047 (Sainsbury and Sainsbury, p. 110). Multiplying the number of vertebrates by 0.34, the seven pairs of birds by 0.047, yields 25,508 tons of waste—six times heavier than the ark itself! Of course, hibernation would greatly reduce this quantity, while the invertebrates and dinosaurs would add to it. Whatever the total, it would have been an awesome amount on the overcrowded boat, a breeder of infinite numbers of pathogens, and a source of noxious, choking fumes.
A comparison with Lamoureux's Guide to Ship Sanitation is instructive. Complex plumbing systems of pipes and pumps, air-gaps and back-flow valves, filters and chemical treatments are necessary to provide potable water and dispose of sewage. Waste is treated and dumped overboard, not discharged to the bilge as on the ark. Such technology was clearly beyond Noah's ability and the maintenance capabilities of his tiny crew; yet, if ever it was needed on a voyage, this was it.

 

[breddell]

The point was is that there is no mention of dinosaurs and nobody really knows what was put on the ark, but it could be in the realm of possibility.

"But while the figures for rail car size and capacity are cited with fair accuracy, ignored is the federal law which requires a train on a long haul to stop every twenty-eight hours, to unload the stock, to feed and water them, and to give them a five-hour rest period (Ensminger, p. 1062). " I like this...

 

[mike]

These criticisms apply to the eight humans aboard the boat as well (Genesis 6:18 and 7:7). Creationists still cling to obsolete stereotypes concerning the "three distinct families of man" descended from Noah's three sons (Custance, p. 204) and even talk candidly of the Afro-Asian "Hamites" being "possessed of a racial character concerned mainly with mundane matters" and subject to displacement by "the intellectual and philosophical acumen of the Japhethites and the religious zeal of the Semites" (Henry Morris, 1977, p. 130).
In reality the ethnic complexity found throughout the world cannot be derived from the flood survivors in the few centuries since that time. The human genetic pool was reduced to five individuals—Mr. and Mrs. Noah and their daughters-in-law (the three sons don't count because they only carry combinations of the genes present in Mr. and Mrs. Noah, unless creationists are willing to admit to beneficial gene mutations). And even if, by some freak coincidence, the five people never had a variant in common, there would still be far too few alleles to account for humankind's diversity. Nearly a third of human genes are polymorphic (Bodner and Cavalli-Sforzi, p. 589), and some, such as the two controlling A and B antigens, with thirty varieties (p. 589), would require substantially more people than Genesis makes available.
If creationists allowed beneficial mutations to produce the thirty different antigens of the A and B series in the HLA region, it would still not solve their problem. Individuals are only heterozygous at a fairly low percentage of loci (5 to 20 percent), while the population could be polymorphic at nearly half the loci. It's questionable how viable an individual would be with a high percentage of heterozygosity (Dobzhansky, Ayala, et al., p. 72).

Do you seriously propose the diverse human racial traits we see today all came from 7 individuals in such a short time ?

and of course the ark fable is at odds with australian aboriginals

Indigenous Australians are the original inhabitants of the Australian continent and nearby islands.[2] Indigenous Australians migrated from Africa to Asia around 70,000 years ago[3] and arrived in Australia around 50,000 years ago.[4][5]

 

[mike]

The point was is that there is no mention of dinosaurs and nobody really knows what was put on the ark, but it could be in the realm of possibility.

"But while the figures for rail car size and capacity are cited with fair accuracy, ignored is the federal law which requires a train on a long haul to stop every twenty-eight hours, to unload the stock, to feed and water them, and to give them a five-hour rest period (Ensminger, p. 1062). " I like this...

To an obvious biblical literalist like yourself the answer is in scripture

And of every living thing of all flesh, you shall bring two of every sort into the ark to keep them alive with you. They shall be male and female.

so yes to a literalist dinosaurs were on the ark

The Bible states that two of every kind of land animal and seven of some went onto the Ark. It doesn’t say two of every species went onto the Ark but “kinds.” There are thousands of species of dinosaurs, but there are only about fifty families of dinosaurs. And since the biblical kind is thought to correspond to the family level in most cases, there would have been only about one hundred dinosaurs on the Ark—not thousands.

Dinosaurs on the Ark - Answers in Genesis

 

[mike]

God Given Hemorrhoids
"The LORD will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods, and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed." (Deuteronomy 28:27)
"But the hand of the LORD was heavy upon them of Ashdod, and he destroyed them, and smote them with emerods, [even] Ashdod and the coasts thereof" (I Samuel 5:6)
"And it was [so], that, after they had carried it about, the hand of the LORD was against the city with a very great destruction: and he smote the men of the city, both small and great, and they had emerods in their secret parts." (I Samuel 5:9)
Comment
When Israel felt rebellious against God's plan, He threatened them with type of plague: "emerods" or by today's terminology, "hemorrhoids."
No wonder why so many atheists consider God a pain in the ass. But then again, Christians and Jews develop hemorrhoids too. If you happen to develop hemorrhoids, then you can trust the Bible that God considers you an enemy.

More examples of god with his own "hand" smiting and killing humans, the lucky ones got hemorrhoids

Twisted bugger isnt he ?

 

[breddell]

I wouldn't call my self a literalist...I mentioned several times that people (such as yourself) focus on the very details when I don't think the Bible is intended to be a text book. However, there are basic truths revealed in it that give a reasonable explanation for our existence and purpose.

So, I ask you, since you don't believe in any of it, how do you explain your existence and purpose? Please tell me how a God-less universe came into existence and how you are alive on this planet.

 

[Randall]

... What is embarrassing is to think there is no intelligent design behind the universe and to think that life randomly developed... the odds are so low that it is as close to zero as you can get.

It seems to me that in a virtually infinite universe there are virtually infinite opportunities for the right combination of possibilities to come together into what we call life and therefore you've got the odds completely backwards. The odds are in fact a virtual certainty. This however doesn't arbitrarily rule out the possibility of a universe maker either. It is possible, perhaps even likely, that we do live in a generated construct designed by a highly advanced intelligence. However even if that is true, that doesn't make such an intelligence into a God except in the minds of those who would deify and worship it. I submit that any intelligence possessing all the things worthy of our worship and devotion would transcend the outrageous self-important ego required to demand, or for that matter even accept that we should kneel before it and worship it. There are times when Star Trek really hits the mark illustrating these issues ...

Star Trek TNG
Not just Picard but - The Picard ...

 

[mike]

I wouldn't call my self a literalist...I mentioned several times that people (such as yourself) focus on the very details when I don't think the Bible is intended to be a text book. However, there are basic truths revealed in it that give a reasonable explanation for our existence and purpose.

So, I ask you, since you don't believe in any of it, how do you explain your existence and purpose? Please tell me how a God-less universe came into existence and how you are alive on this planet.

Science has many but not all the answers to these questions, what i dont need to do is invoke a supernatural superstitious explanation to fill in the gaps.
And if i did, i sure as hell wouldnt invoke the absurd bloodthirsty monster you do.

Just to clarify since god made ALL the animals on the 6th day, did he make the dinosaurs on that day too ?
And since Cain was of the first generation when he built his city

Absurdity of Cain Building & Populating a City On His Own

Were there dinosaurs roaming the land while he did so ?

And while we are asking questions how is it possible that in just 4,378 odd years, the african, south american, eskimo, the maori, the australian aboriginal, the asian and white peoples all evolved from just 8 people , five of which were genetically related anyway

The chinese genotype predates the flood.................... how did they survive it ?

Chinese culture as documented through written records is at least 3,300 years old, and prehistorical cultural artifacts date back about 4,500 years. The earliest Chinese dynasty appears to be the Xia from the 21st century B.C.

Everything we know about biology today makes 8 people ,five of which were already genetically related a non viable breeding population

Minimum viable population - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Minimum viable population size

Inbreeding depression - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I notice you didnt even try to address this biblical absurdity

Jesus Invented By The Romans? | Page 4 | The Paracast Community Forums

The idea the entire diverse genetic array of modern humanity came from 8 indivduals (who by the second generation would all have been related) is just silly.

Here is a fact that blows the flood story out of the waters..... lol couldnt resist

ABORIGINAL AUSTRALIANS ARE descendents of the first people to leave Africa up to 75,000 years ago, a genetic study has found, confirming they may have the oldest continuous culture on the planet.

Aboriginal Australians the oldest culture on Earth - Australian Geographic

The oldest continuous culture on the planet....... how can that be if the flood story is true ?

Science, killing superstition yet again

That the bible is right and the science is wrong isnt the logical answer.
The obvious answer is the authors of the bible had no knowledge of the australian aboriginals existance, and thus have been exposed as the ignorant storytellers they really are

 

[stonehart]

In all seriousness this music here always reminds me of this sort of thread

Now try reading the Bible while playing this ... Works well.

 

[mike]

Then we have these guys

Genetic studies[edit]
In the 1990s, genomic studies of world peoples found that the Y chromosome of San men (using samples drawn from several tribes) share certain patterns of polymorphisms that are distinct from those of all other populations.[10] Because the Y chromosome is highly conserved between generations, this type of DNA test is used to determine when different subgroups separated from one another, and hence their last common ancestry. The authors of these studies suggested that the San may have been one of the first populations to differentiate from the most recent common paternal ancestor of all extant humans, the so-called Y-chromosomal Adam by patrilineal descent, estimated to have lived 60,000 to 90,000 years ago.[11] [12] The authors also note that their results should be interpreted as only finding that the Khoisan "preserve ancient lineages", and not that they "stopped evolving" or are an "ancient group", since subsequent changes in their population are in parallel and similar to those of all other human populations.[10]
Various Y-chromosome studies [13][14][15] since confirmed that the Khoisan carry some of the most divergent (oldest) Y-chromosome haplogroups. These haplogroups are specific sub-groups of haplogroups A and B, the two earliest branches on the human Y-chromosome tree.
Similar to findings from Y-Chromosome studies, mitochondrial DNA studies also showed evidence that the Khoe–San people carry high frequencies of the earliest haplogroup branches in the human mitochondrial DNA tree. The most divergent (oldest) mitochondrial haplogroup, L0d, have been identified at its highest frequencies in the southern African Khoe and San groups.[16][13][17][18] The distinctiveness of the Khoisan in both matrilineal and patrilineal groupings is a further indicator that they represent a population historically distinct from other Africans.

How did their genes survive the flood ?

 

[stonehart]

Noah's ark story is possible....

Could the ark really contain all the animals of the world? Again the answer is "Yes." But let's look in more detail. The ark took about 120 years to build. Noah was 480 years old when he began the work and he had the help of his wife, three sons, and his son's wives. He probably hired local people to help in the construction.
The dimensions of the ark have a ratio of six to one. The Ark was six times longer than it was wide. This is the best ratio for modern ship building. Model stability tests have shown that the design is stable for waves up to 200 feet high and that the ark could have rotated 90 degrees and still righted itself.
The volume of the ark would be 450 feet long by 75 feet wide by 45 feet high. This equals 1,518,750 cubic feet and is comparable to 569 modern railroad boxcars. Therefore each boxcar, by comparison, would be 1,518,750 divided by 569, or 2,669 cubic feet of space. The average size of an animal on the earth is smaller than a cat. But, just to keep it safe let's consider the average size of an animal to be a sheep. The average double deck stock car holds 240 sheep. The Ark capacity would be about 569 x 240 equaling 136,560 animals of that size. However, that still is not accurate for our needs. Since most birds, reptiles, and amphibians are much smaller, let's double the boxcar capacity for them. Therefore, the boxcars could each hold 480 different kinds of birds, reptiles, amphibians.
Noah had to take two or seven of every kind of animal on the earth. Though it is not really known exactly what is meant by a biblical kind, it is generally considered to be animals that are fertile within their own groups. Any dog can breed with any dog, therefore, dogs are one kind. It would only be necessary to bring representatives of each kind since the parents could produce offspring that would carry the genetic information for all variations within their kind.

• Classification . . . . Number of Species . . . . Number of Kinds on the Ark
• Mammals . . . . . . . . .3,700 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3,700 (a few live in water).
• Birds . . . . . . . . . . . . 8,600 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 60,200 (seven pairs according to Gen. 7:3)
• Reptiles. . . . . . . . . . .6,300 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6,300
• Amphibians. . . . . . . .2,500 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2,500
• Fishes. . . . . . . . . . . .20,600. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .zero
• Other marine life . . . 192,605. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .zero
• Insects . . . . . . . . . . . 850,000 . . . (Since insects are very small, and a great many could be stored in a small area, calculation would be difficult.)
• Total . . . . . . . . . . . .1,072,305 . . . . . . . . . . . . .72,700

The total number of mammals would be 3,700 times two pair which equals 7,400 animals. 7,400 divided by 240 = 31 boxcars used.
Since Gen. 7:3 says to take seven pairs of every bird then the total for birds would be 8,600 times two pair times 7 or 120,400 animals. 120,400 x 480 = 250 boxcars. The reptiles and amphibians would be 6,300 plus 2,500 or 8,800. 8,800 times two pair equals 17,600 animals. 17,600 divided by 480 = 37 boxcars.
The total number of boxcars used would be 318 with a total number of animals at 145,400. There would be 251 boxcars left over. That means that only 56% of the ark would be used for storing the animals. Obviously, then, the rest of the space would be used for food for the people and animals and sleeping quarters. In addition, considering that insects are extremely small, it is easily conceivable that they could be housed in part of the remaining space.
It should also be considered that many animals can hibernate. Additionally, predators and prey have been known to live peacefully together during situations of stress like fire, flood, or earthquake. In the Ark, animal behavior probably would have been different from normal daily life. Specialists in animal behavior have noted that animals can sense danger and have often migrated to escape it. Perhaps God used their migratory instincts to get them to the Ark.
Though this is only a brief analysis, it should present enough evidence that the Ark account is certainly within the realm of possibility.

OH FUCK ARE YOU SERIOUS!!!

Its a story and an imaginary one at that...

No offense man but either that was the best Troll I have seen in a while or you need to read so real science and put the Church propaganda down.

So where did all that water come from and go?

How did all the animals end up in specific geographical locations adapted perfectly to their specific environment considering this would have had to happen in only 6000 years if we are going to get dogmatic?

Why do we not see genetic bottle necking due to having bread from only two of each animal?

Why is there no Geological record of this event?

That's a start .. please Mike Goggs and all continue this list.

The Story is a bad adaptation of the Gilgamesh Epic.

 

[mike]

In all seriousness this music here always reminds me of this sort of thread

Now try reading the Bible while playing this ... Works well.

It does too........

 

[stonehart]

 

[mike]

 

[mike]

Thank you, now i need to find a way to get beer and boogers out of my keyboard

 

[stonehart]

Thank you, now i need to find a way to get beer and boogers out of my keyboard

haha I had that one aside for a special time and this was it.

 

[mike]

haha I had that one aside for a special time and this was it.

I gotta admit when i read

Noah's ark story is possible....
Could the ark really contain all the animals of the world? Again the answer is "Yes."

i thought