June 14 Jacobs/Hopkins show

[UBERDOINK]

Glad to hear "real research" whew! about time!

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

if say 2% of the population has had their dna fiddled with or been impregnated with alien sperm, then how long before that's spread throughout the whole of the human race? how long have we got before we find out if it's real?

I doubt it was alien sperm, as they don't seem to reproduce sexually. It was likely a modified virus that did it.

There was an issue of Discover magazine that talked about how we have a lot of "alien" DNA in us, but in their case alien meant from viruses, but they also alluded to some of those viruses coming from space.

brings a whole new dimension to the 6 degrees of separation...

Every human female is related to each other as shown in their mitochondrial DNA, though it does mutate.

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

The house I grew up in has one of those "shadow cat" things living in it. I know at least 6 people who have seen it. Did the one you see have funny looking "Batman" ears...like oddly symmetrical and pointy?
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Yeah, I can see the pointy ears. I mean it's been a long time, but in my mind I always pickups the typical cat profile, and the ears are what made me realize it was a cat, since it was all black.

Ironically my current real cat is black. He's also prone to just sit and stare at you.

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

I call that the "Jam God." I don't have to look at the neck when we're connected, but sometimes I do. It's like looking at the face of one's beloved during orgasm. It really is like a form of possession when one get's really attuned with their instrument and the band is "ON." Happiest times of my life on this material plane.
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Oh yeah, being in the "zone". I live for that. You have those moments of temporary magic, and then it's gone.

But this was different. This was a voice and pictures and stuff. I believe that at times improvising is channeling, but this was very odd.

The most recent episode had the same voice, and a bunch of pictures and information, but it was telling me to write a book and start a movement, and that just seemed like a bunch of work I didn't feel like doing lol

But it was the same voice. It was quite sudden and unexpected, like a radio channel was switched on in my head. This last time I was able to "talk" back to it, or it was able to hear all my thoughts, even if they weren't directed to it.

I don't know what it is, but it's obviously able to just tune in to someone, and know what you are doing etc., even though it's totally unseen.

This last time made me think it was an "alien" presence, due to the stuff it was showing me. So that means they either have very amazing abilities... beyond technology, or something else is going on.

I find myself trying to trying to "talk" to it again, hoping I'll get a response. So far no dice.

 

[cosmonaut]

One thing I would like to see explored further is the question of European abduction cases. I am concerned about the lack of abduction reports outside of the members, partners, allies of the NATO Alliance. Is this just a lack of information or something else....... For example I never hear about abduction reports from Russia? Alien implant cases outside of NATO members/partners???

 

[mikec]

Okay - I am gunna defend both Dave & Budd.

I am involved with a documentary, I am doing research - and I have events in my life that “seem” to indicate (maybe) some sort of abduction event.

I visited and interviewed both of them and in the last two years. Both of them showed me their offices where they log their work. I am not kidding, it was amazing how much they have amassed. Dave Jacob's has (literally) an entire ROOM full of cassette tapes of interviews. It was all organized and tidy, but the volume of tapes was impressive.

I also looked at the drawings done by the alleged abductees of Budd. These were neatly stored in flat files, and it was - again - a very impressive collection.

Budd showed me a laundry basket full of letters. The letters were stored and separated into a series of manila folders, with titles on the files like: probable abduction and interior of craft. He took out a letter at random, and read it aloud. It was an apology and a cry for help all wrapped up together.

“I’m sorry to bother you but something is happening and I am desperately seeking your help...”

Budd commented that he gets a LOT of these letters. I looked at the laundry basket and asked, “Are these from last year?” and he replied: “These are from last MONTH!” And he went on to explain he gets the same volume of mail week after week, and year after year - since the MISSING TIME book in the late 80’s.

He is a caring guy, and he was genuinely sad that he was unable to help each of these people. He spoke of how he had to simply ignore most of these letters, simply because he doesn’t have the time.

Okay - paranoia is a psychological malady. It can be defined by a specialist, and it has been seen, documented and treated over the centuries.

I feel strongly that the alien abduction phenomenon is something different. People are reporting SUCH similar things, all without knowing what others are reporting. Some of the details are of such specificity (and these reoccur) that it is VERY difficult to dismiss the pattern in these reports. But, there is something in our nature that is very quick to dismiss them, and with contempt.

I am intrigued at how this subject can cause such divergent views, even on a very open-minded forum like the PARACST. The abduction thing is the bastard child that everyone wants to ignore or dismiss.

Budd and Dave are cataloging a LOT of information, and they are reporting very disturbing patterns.

The details that they are reporting are just TOO similar (sometimes, literally identical) to be written off as manipulative hypnotherapist leading a gullible patient.

Could it ALL be just a few leading hypnotherapist creating something out of nothing? This simply does NOT fit the data (and yes, the data is suspect, but there is a LOT of it). In my opinion, the reports are just TOO consistent to ignore.

QUESTION: If there was some unknown psychological flaw in the human psyche that could create such bizarre stories with such exacting similarities between so many people?

If Budd and Dave say they are seeing patterns in their research, I believe them. They go on to make a conclusion on what these patterns indicate, and this is speculation, true enough. But, I want to hear what they have to say. They are NOT talking off the cuff, if they are verbalizing their conclusions on a public forum (like THE PARACAST) they have thought about it long and hard. They do NOT make these claims lightly.

Do Budd and Dave make conclusions that seem hard to back up? Dear Lord - Yes.

Do Budd and Dave maliciously (or unconsciously) bolster the data to make their claims? No, I truly don’t think they do.

If they are tinkering with the data (and they may be doing it on a subconscious human level) and it impacts their conclusion, I understand that. I personally think the “real” truth is even WEIRDER than what they conclude. Whatever that might mean.

If there is a flaw in this messy business of abduction research, it might be that these two are somehow focusing on their own data in a way that doesn’t include some other conclusions. For instance, someone like Dr. Leo Sprinkle (who I LOVE!) makes claims that are wildly divergent from theirs (he’s very expansive in his thinking, and he factors in all kinds of “fringe” concepts). Both Dave & Budd are at odds with Leo’s conclusions. Personally, I think both sides are incomplete, but they bring some very real (and very important) puzzle pieces to the table.

It may be impossible to have this pool of researchers to come to agreement on their data. All I can do is try and fit these divergent puzzle pieces together in a way that allows for a slight bit more clarity. But THAT might be extremely difficult.

I am truly impressed with these two researchers. Do I agree with their data? From what I’ve seen, they are amassing something quite impressive. And I feel that much of it is valid and honest.

Do I “BELIVE” that their conclusions are correct? Some stuff, maybe? This is a slippery subject, can I even “try” to answer this. I find their conclusions fascinating, something to contemplate. But part of me is just too freaked-out to say that it could be literal truth.

I strongly suggest folks read SIGHT UNSEEN. In it, Budd shares some extremely strange stories that fall outside the boundaries of the “standard” abduction scenario.



I just posted this exact same reply on another thread titled: ABDUCTION

 

[Drew UK]

Thanks for the response, DRM.
May I take this opportunity to clarify my reasoning.

They also seem to have lost aesthetic appreciation, as no one has seen any colors or artistic objects on the craft. But then you don't see that on our space craft either. But it's an interesting idea, and paints them as being of sort of a hive mentality. All for the good of the group.

- Too contradictory, and not relevant - painting objects i.e. transport is primarily a function to resist corrosion and protect the metalwork not artistic license - this is not the purpose of the object concerned and requires excess resources.

If just the US Government came forward and stated publicly and for the record that UFOs exist and they have no idea what they are, and are also powerless to do anything about them.. let alone anything about aliens, many people would have a hard time handling the news.

But my understanding, that when you are silent in politics - you are hesitant to decide which way to pitch the public announcement -They need to decide if they want the subjects to be hostile or amenable to the scenario - and theres a lot at stake if they got it wrong, governments hold a big ace in there hand - mainly influence over the masses - they need to know as much as they can before entering any form of disclosure. Would revealing some truths promote them or does it politically relegate there authority? (in which case, how can those truths be manipulated to a governments benefit)?

I don't think they are here to cure our ailments. But I also don't think they are here to harm us. They could have done both a long time ago.

They might be trying to get us more manageable, like domesticating wild animals, so they can move to their next stage of inhabiting the Earth.

Here we confuse things - and we are going down that path of treating "them" as equals - wrong move!!

Firstly who's to say they don't already own the earth? Have you seen the deeds, the contract - what is that contract and what it is based on? - Do the whole pond of fish know that there little patch is owned by gardener D?

Whats the point of invasion and inhabitation when as far as your concerned the pond is yours - you don't have to live in it!

But this is where the point I am trying to get at lies. Whatever this world/pond is and regardless of the contract - be it some cosmic laboratory, plethora of diversity and biological life, or just aesthetically pleasing to have in your back garden - there would always require some form of management.

If one day, you realise that the pondlife now have some technological ability to poison this world/pond - then, would it not seem unreasonable to take a closer look at whats going on?

Maybe, it becomes pretty high priority - so much so, that in your eagerness that you make mistakes and drop unintentional materials into it.
And start fishing things out for closer examination?

They aren't our "space brothers", not on an emotional level anyway. But they probably have some kind of beliefs about how they should treat other life forms, even if we seem like cattle to them..

I agree with this - apart from the beliefs system - they don't believe they know.

So they either want to be helpful, or want to seem helpful, or at least want us to accept them. That's the feeling I got anyway. They pick certain people and change their way of thinking. So they are making contact one person at a time.

Again, don't like this - too focussed on some relationship that doesn't exist.

You take a placid cat into the vet for the jab - stroke it - it probably comes out thinking that it was a pleasant experience.
You take a ferocious cat into the vet for the jab - you put in more forceful and agressive technique - it probably thinks that it was a terrifying experience.
You take a playful cat into the vet for the jab - dangle some string in front of it - it probably thinks it was a bizarre experience.

I think it is better to detach from the distraction - and look more closely at the jab.

OK, Amidst this whirling speculation which I base my instinct on this phen. There remains the $64,000 Q -

So assuming that somewhere out there is the "cure" - a quarantined section of our next generation, how will and when will this be rolled out into our global society?

I get the feeling some of us are going to have to move over. You need to be cruel to be kind.

 

[mattdeacon]

On the subject of screen memories, when I was in single figures, I stayed at my friend's house in Yorkshire. I vividly remember waking up in the night and seeing 3 skeletons floating at the foot of the bed. This experience has always stayed with me, and is practically the only "dream" I remember from childhood.

Great episode, very interesting information. One day, you should get Budd back on to talk about the Brooklyn Bridge/Linda Cortile case.

On the subject of hybrids, does anyone remember a Playstation ad from years ago that had a scottish girl with a remarkably shaped head?

 

[conor]

QUESTION: If there was some unknown psychological flaw in the human psyche that could create such bizarre stories with such exacting similarities between so many people? .... If they are tinkering with the data (and they may be doing it on a subconscious human level) and it impacts their conclusion, I understand that. I personally think the “real” truth is even WEIRDER than what they conclude. Whatever that might mean.

If there is a flaw in this messy business of abduction research, it might be that these two are somehow focusing on their own data in a way that doesn’t include some other conclusions. For instance, someone like Dr. Leo Sprinkle (who I LOVE!) makes claims that are wildly divergent from theirs (he’s very expansive in his thinking, and he factors in all kinds of “fringe” concepts). Both Dave & Budd are at odds with Leo’s conclusions. Personally, I think both sides are incomplete, but they bring some very real (and very important) puzzle pieces to the table.

Couldn't agree with you more. I understand that Budd and David are doing work that most would shy away from. But I have a suspicion that symbols do crop up for people on this level en masse. Carl Jung's idea of the collective unconsciousness is kind of what I am going for. He used to analyse dreams, and when someone saw a snake or something, he would find that the image of the snake collelated between a number of people to have o broad meaning for them pschologically. Now, I am not saying that abduction is a dream. But I do thing that it kind of corresponds to religious visions and sightings of fairies and such in the past. Not to go down the route of revisionism while looking at these accounts (ie. these were abductions), there still seems to be a similarity - at least in the fact that they come from the far fringes of human experience. Now, woodland elves had their reputation, as did all sorts of creatures. Were they "real"? What does it mean that something is real? Are they related to dreams, but much more intense, driven by symbolism, and sonjured up by more than the sum of the parts, ie. the abductee doesn't conjure up these images. Rather it is more like they play out for him or her without their control over the events that are unfolding.

Perhaps we are seeing the archetypes for the unknown, and when ever we do come into contact with stange energy, fifth dimesional beings, etc. (I am not advocating any of these), perhaps that is when these collective symbols come into play. Perhaps they even have physicality? The implication for ourselves, for humanity, is huge IMO.

Now, whether or not you go with Budd or David, it couldn't hurt to have a second opinion in the mix, or someone who might come at it from a different angle. That is how science moves forward, and if the abduction cases are to be taken seriously by the mainstream (and even some fellow paracasters), then that's what's needed. Peer review and alternative veiws.

I put forward an argument in this post about Abductions in someway being linked with the collective unconsciousness. Well, even as I write it, it sounds incomplete. But that's okay, I suppose. It's a theory. If Budd and David were to bring their theory of this phenonemon to the scientific realm, this is what they would have to go through. And that's a good thing. That is how science moves forward. If they did that they would face much harder opposition than my little pop psychology theory, because that's what it is at the end of the day - I'm no expert.

I want to get to the bottom of this

 

[mikec]

Connor wrote:

"Carl Jung's idea of the collective unconsciousness is kind of what I am going for..."

Mike replies:

YES! - This is an IMPORTANT avenue to examine. It fit's so cleanly in some ways. This is an elusive mystery, sure enough...

 

[threed]

Connor wrote:

"Carl Jung's idea of the collective unconsciousness is kind of what I am going for..."

Mike replies:

YES! - This is an IMPORTANT avenue to examine. It fit's so cleanly in some ways. This is an elusive mystery, sure enough...

Even if that were true, it doesn't negate the amazing nature of the phenomenon. It does nothing to belittle the experiencers' perceptions. And it opens the door to this whole concept of a story being told across numerous consciousnesses. That's pretty bizarre all by itself!

 

[David Biedny]

Mike,

I've been reading Sight Unseen recently, fascinating book. Budd is a good guy, at his age I think I would leave this stuff behind and enjoy my remaining years, he's got moxie, and I respect that. Had a great conversation with him on the phone today, mostly about art.

Ands thanks for your kind words about me and the show recently on your blog, I keep forgetting to email you about that. Life's been busy recently. We'll ketchup soon.

dB

 

[conor]

Even if that were true, it doesn't negate the amazing nature of the phenomenon. It does nothing to belittle the experiencers' perceptions. And it opens the door to this whole concept of a story being told across numerous consciousnesses. That's pretty bizarre all by itself!

Couldn't agree with you more!

 

[Rocketsauce]

Just listened to the show and only have a couple minutes to post so I didn't get a chance to read most of the other comments so excuse me if I repeat stuff.

The show was really entertaining, I like that the show is addressing the abduction phenomena directly with 2 of the most influential dudes (for better or worse) in the abduction research niche.

One thing I noticed when listening to the show which I think is important is historical context was not addressed as much as I think it should be. When Vallee cites ancient story after story about fairies and other really similar "folklore" it makes me think that this most recent research of Hopkins/Jacobs could easily be looked at as the latest in a long continuation of this stuff.

I just wish the larger scientific community could get involved in this study, it is a bit limiting when only a handful of people with scientific credentials can get involved with this stuff which is so complex, and then it seems they just feed off each other's views experiences which are going to be limited by default.

Personally, I think this stuff is more absurd and weird then just creating hybrids for some evolutionary purpose (like that's not weird enough!).

It would not surprise me if 2% of the population have had experiences with this stuff, with most just blowing it off. If not 2%, I bet it's a lot more than people think, just my hunch in following this stuff.

Is the whole hybrid thing something that is happening at face value or something stranger/symbolic/misinterpreted or just one part of a larger picture??? Talk amongst yourselves..... Coffee talk!

 

[Ezechiel]

Awful

Like I said in the other thread, I try to tune out certain aspects of what they say as noise and try to focus on key points, like, "is this really happening?" This phenomenon, if real, is the most shocking and terrifying discovery in the history or human beings. It really is.

Its the discovery of a sentient hierarchy... and we're not on top !
The lack of control over something that even the best organizations on earth can't negociate with reduces humanity to ant status.

For eons we've called any higher level of sentience a GOD of some sort. Replacing GOD with a mechanical and nefarious process (from a human point of view) is deadening. Free will becomes an illusion, the earth a fragile and manipulated fish tank.

Would any world leader touch this with a ten foot pole ? There's no solution to the issue he can offer... no negociation is possible and our only possible expression of free will is nuking ourselves to oblivion (Thanks to Einstein ).

 

[Tom From Hong Kong]

Jacobs/Hopkins show - a balanced perspective

I've read some of the prior posts in this thread, and understand why some people are highly skeptical of Hopkins and Jacobs -- as they should be. I personally have not been directly exposed to anything paranormal in my life.

However, I have met two very credible, very sane people in the past who claim to have been abducted, one a corporate lawyer at a large investment bank (I met her in 2005) and the other the stepsister of a woman I used to date (circa 1992). The facts these two abductees relay are similar to what Hopkins and Jacobs report. The family of the latter (the stepsister, whose family consisted of many professionals) reported odd occurrences surrounding the stepsister (odd disappearances outdoors in the wintertime, abductions across generations involving the biological father, new Rolex watch losing hours of time, lights in the house at night). As such, I do think there is a core of truth surrounding what Hopkins and Jacobs say, however bizarre. I also personally find a certain degree of logic associated with Jacob's conclusions given the honest facts we do have at the moment.

Roper is a credible polling organization, but the study needs to be verified, with more work being done. The results basically tell us a relatively high number of people (albeit a smallish minority) have had a series of personal experiences indicative of the abduction phenomenum reported by many independent individuals. Nothing more, nothing less, but important information nonetheless. As a sidenote, none of what Jacobs indicated has ever happened to me or my immediate family, so I suspect these occurrences aren't all too common in human experience.

At a certain point, we all need to assess whether a researcher is credible, honest, civic minded and rigorous in their thinking, while allowing them the right to make mistakes at times. I personally put Hopkins and Jacobs in this category. Some have come down hard on Linda Howe, but I would also put her in the serious category, despite her work on drones (let's all recognize that her work on cattle mutilation is groundbreaking critically important). How could you do serious work in this field without, at times, making mistakes, given the nature (and apparent physics!) of the phenomenum?

I truly enjoyed the Hopkns/Jacobs show, with the right questions leading to great dialogue.

 

[urkotic]

As a Paracast show this was a good one - great guests and a great interview. My hangups on the show are with my misgivings about the conclusions Hopkins and Jacobs have reached. I will say the comments in this thread have persuaded me I should try to pick up Sight Unseen and The Threat and read some more.

I had some trouble getting past their Roper Poll and the conclusions they drew from it. 2% of the US population in 1991 was - as Jacobs has pointed out elsewhere - 5 million people. Any way you try to figure it, the logistics involved in temporarily abducting 5 million people in mostly undetected nighttime operations (over say 30 years) is pretty head spinning. I just feel like these guys have a science fiction narrative that they can accept from the inside, but trying to get in from out here I keep bouncing off. Which is not to say nothing is going on, just that I am uneasy with the conclusions and story these two have. But then of course I accept they've spent a lot more time with the subject than I have, as was pointed out in this thread.

Other comments in the episode that gave me pause... "most other countries don't have the sophistication of knowledge that we have in the US about how to do hypnosis and how to investigate these cases... we're waiting for that to develop" (paraphrase). And, Budd Hopkins stating of abduction claims, "This is not an area where you find hoaxes." which I felt the hosts kind of gently pointed out is not always true.

I don't know, I think Hopkins and Jacobs certainly came across like intelligent men and I am glad you interviewed them (esp. in this 'square table' format), but I felt like they have a science fiction story of alien-human hybridization here, and fwiw I'm not convinced that's the entire or even main truth behind abduction stories.

(of course, I guess any story of alien abduction is going to sound like a science fiction story...)

 

[746f6d]

Great show, great guests. A speculative point made during the show, that these beings do not respect or possess concepts of individual liberty or identity, has rattled around my head for a few days.

If these beings do have telepathic capabilities (or "technical" capabilities that to us imply telepathy), it follows that the real time sharing of thoughts between individuals would lead to a shared stream of consciousness, warts and all.

It's hard to imagine the ego providing any social or evolutionary benefit under these circumstances. Under these conditions--or rather, under my hypothetical model of a society operating with these capabilities--conspiracy, subversion, individual excellence and political maneuvering would be exposed to community scrutiny at inception. We may be talking about a "for the good of the many" society here, from the top down and from the bottom up.

Interesting to leap from this speculation to Dr. Jacobs reports that the hybrids apparently learning to integrate into our society ask questions focused on rules, e.g., "Who gets to watch television? Should the student address the teacher as an inferior, equal or superior?, etc."

I find these odd details, and speculation about what they may tell us about the social, political and maybe military or scientific structure of these visitors to be the most fascinating aspect of this set of phenomenon.

Pursuit of empirical and quantitative evidence is critical for research in this field. I also expect philisophical and social exploration, even through models and hypothesis where we lack data, can tell us important things about this phenomenon.

Thanks for a great show guys.

 

[threed]

If these beings do have telepathic capabilities (or "technical" capabilities that to us imply telepathy), it follows that the real time sharing of thoughts between individuals would lead to a shared stream of consciousness, warts and all.

Yes, interesting.

Depending upon the extent and scope of this telepathic feature, it might follow that all consciousness becomes collective. Would any individual receptor be able to distinguish self-originated thought from thought being received?

How would they delineate multiple tracks of simultaneous thought? Even in our limited range of perceptions, we acknowledge the sound of distinct voices. Still, we are very quickly overwhelmed by multiple voices speaking simultaneously.

Just how would any hierarchy function in this environment? What motive force would compell an individual receptor to respond to one thought over another?

At present, I'm not convinced that this represents a coherent possibility that evolution would pursue. Aspects of it seem inherently dysfunctional in the same sense as multiple transmissions of co-equal radio signals on the same frequency.

 

[Jeff Crowell]

I'd think that if, suddenly, the human species developed telepathic abilities and we were flooded with thought, the mind would also develop the ability to filter. As the example by Ally above points out, when we're in a crowded room it's difficult, sometimes, to pick out a single voice. In our younger years with neuro-path ways the way they our for our auditory abilities this actually isn't too much of a problem but as our brains start to shrink, we get older, and those pathways may start to lose their potency, we find it harder and harder to find specific voices within the roaring din of a crowded room.

Since all of this is speculation anyway, I'm wondering if our brains wouldn't develop a filtering system so our own, single consciousness could still call through and be recognized.