June 28, 2015 — Richard Dolan

[Robert Baird]

UFO crashes would not occur if the aliens were able to manoeuvre through space debris including remnants of stars that imploded and the matter collapsed into such density that it can pierce our atmosphere and go deep into the Earth's crust.

UFO crashes would not occur if they had propulsion systems so advanced that they could travel at multiples of warp speed and hover. Their guidance systems would include a mind like computer or vice versa. What would cause a crash? They would have shields and weapons to blow any matter in their way out of existence - maybe with nothing more than a thought.

Constance says: Insofar as whether ufo crashes have occurred, why wouldn't they? Do we imagine that older species capable of traveling in space must have become all-powerful and infallible? The physical forces and fields such species must navigate and even manipulate are immense, so immense as to dwarf any organically evolved (or even artificially developed) 'beings' and their technologies.

The second sentence is rhetoric akin to ad hominem argumentum but borne in a society that imagines or hallucinates and still maintains Papal Infallibility.

Your final sentence is true and it is what you have to overcome if you are to defend your BELIEF. I created a thread on that specific subject. But I sincerely believe we must develop space and colonize it - so please give us the benefit of your insights which contact has availed you of.

 

[dmanister]

No, it makes no sense at all outside of dumb chance. I wasn't doubting that criticism, just pointing out that our own technologies are excruciatingly far behind other possible space faring civilizations, especially if they are faring in our direction. We are nowhere close to the skills that they have acquired making our sticks and stones stuff pretty low end. That we have the ability to complete such marvelous "sticks and stones" touchdowns is only watered down by the great number of crashes that have rendered many of our own space missions incomplete. We are still fairly limited in terms of what we can get up to.

But yes, one must consider that the likelihood of one alien craft crashing here due to chance is quite small and that multiple crashes would represent possibly profound alien inadequacies and paradoxes such as: extreme short-sightedness, a willingness to waste incredible amounts resources, stupidity, a lack of communication amongst diverse species etc...what's more likely is that there have been no crashes at all, or perhaps one. Though, as Clark has pointed out, historically, the notion of an alien ship crashing on earth being kept secret, is absolutely impossible. As he says, you just can't hide such things from history. It doesn't matter how well the military or any black ops group has things compartmentalized, such an event is simply too large for it to remain hidden from human history for any real length of time, rendering most conspiracy theories around the disclosure movement to be mostly a waste of time.

Ufology with a few exceptions (of which you are one) seems to suffer from a failure of imagination in that it can only conceive of alien technology as slightly more advanced than our own.

My point is that even we on Earth have achieved soft landings on moons, planets and speeding asteroids, despite being such beginners at space travel that our craft crash all the time.

But even we don't send live crews to far distant planets. The idea that aliens who visit Earth on a regular basis would do so seems laughable.

 

[Robert Baird]

Dear DR

So you are saying all reports of contact, abduction, and bodies found are false? Just to be clear - you also believe in Alien Intervention and the Bible stories too? BTW I am seeking input on exotic field technology so we can get to Mars in a thread addressing the crashes. I include many ideas which are very imaginative about how we can develop interstellar travel because I know what we have done to Earth is about to end the life of many hereon.

But even we don't send live crews to far distant planets. The idea that aliens who visit Earth on a regular basis would do so seems laughable.

Yep. I am laughing all right. Here is something for you to laugh at and answer some of my questions about why people continue believing NONsense while everything around them screams out they are being deceived.

De-Population - Proof!!!

 

[DissectionStalker]

Ufology with a few exceptions (of which you are one) seems to suffer from a failure of imagination in that it can only conceive of alien technology as slightly more advanced than our own.

My point is that even we on Earth have achieved soft landings on moons, planets and speeding asteroids, despite being such beginners at space travel that our craft crash all the time.

But even we don't send live crews to far distant planets. The idea that aliens who visit Earth on a regular basis would do so seems laughable.

The military was very concerned about the Soviet Union and had used incredible campaigns of elaborate deceptions in WWII with great success. Propaganda and "messaging" was certainly used through the AP wire services to spread disinformation to the Russians. Whatever happened it was need to know only, and, so, that means very few people really knew anything that was the truth. This was some kind of flight/aerial debris that may have crashed, but it was certainly not of ET alien origin.

There were no laws requiring top secret "need to know" programs have documentation preserved for decades to come. Back then most top secret papers would end-up in burn bags to be erased from history forever. When the intelligence officer for the local base got involved near the very beginning, do you seriously believe anyone would get "the truth" without a need to know? It is very likely he would never be told the truth about it without some "need to know" too.

Since there seems to be some kind of organized media reporting of UFO's throughout the USA within weeks of Roswell, before and after, then there is likely some kind of planned media propaganda campaign that was initiated to send disinformation about this to the Russians. Or, this could be some type of PSYOPS to test the reporting of the Press and/or public reaction too. It is also possible some tests needed to be done throughout the country to test defense detection and reaction possibly using new technologies, and these UFO's were part of the targeting or decoys or something else.

Once media hysteria takes hold then the ET-UFO phenomena just goes off the deep end. Don't forget the media makes Big Money off this kind of reporting too! ET-UFO's will ALWAYS sell and make money for the newspapers and radio stations. ET-UFO's are far more interesting than some military test program, and the military just loves "the cover" ET-UFO's provide them to hide what they're really doing too.

Remember, it's ALWAYS need to know. Otherwise, you will be served ET-UFO's and deception! You do not deserve the truth. Sorry. By 1980 ET-UFO's were multi-million dollar industries with Hollywood, books, tv, etc. Is it any surprise the military of the 1980's would take advantage of this mythology for their purposes? Obviously, Air Force OSI did. Do you think you have a need to know? I don't think so...

 

[Robert Baird]

Excellent points

Khrushchev was an Info officer at the Battle of Stalingrad. How anyone could think there was time to do anything more than propaganda is beyond me. Russian officers had standing orders to shoot their own who would not advance. Same with Allies in WWI. There are movies which document these matters.

Need to know goes on with plane crashes today. The Generals and others who are involved in hearings are in the secret military spy group my oldest brother is a member of. He told me they don't like to worry people about various threats including things they study and develop contingency plans for - like poisoning the water supply. Biologic and viral threats from natural and un-natural sources is another seminar he attended, if memory serves.

In a post he just sent me he said the Georgia Guideposts might be more like Stonehenge than the assholes who put them there were thinking; because the culture that built them will perish.

 

[Burnt State]

But the event of the modern ufo phenomenon hasn't remained hidden, nor has the postulated ETH developed only gradually over the last 65+ years. The latter was proposed and weighed by the US Air Force and its Intelligence branches from the outset in 1947, and has never been overcome as a possible [indeed probable] explanation for a succession of ufo encounters and events since then. The evidence that many ufos are physical, high tech, intelligently operated manifestations of an intelligence other than our own has long been manifest. That the psychological and even psychical effects of ufo encounters constitute another approach to understanding what 'ufos' are does not invalidate the ETH as an explanation for much of the phenomenon in our time and in our planet's past.

Insofar as whether ufo crashes have occurred, why wouldn't they? Do we imagine that older species capable of traveling in space must have become all-powerful and infallible? The physical forces and fields such species must navigate and even manipulate are immense, so immense as to dwarf any organically evolved (or even artificially developed) 'beings' and their technologies.

I was referring specifically to the concept that an alien space ship has in fact crash landed at Roswell or anywhere else - that fact could not be hidden from human history. It's simply too big an event to stay hidden - it's much more enormous an event than trying hiding a nuclear explosion. You can do it underground all you want but it's a reality will ultimately become manifest - even more so with an alien crash. The consequences alone would be outstanding. What we've been seeing in the skies has not been hidden; no, this is something that has been the subject of a collaborative social narrative called ETH. We don't have any proof at all of that, just a lot of suspicions based on trace evidence, witness stories and experiences. That theory is an ideological one and a more open minded approach to trying to understand the phenomenon might require a less dogmatic assumption.

Yes there is an incredible set of events that have taken place as reported and seen by many that provide the appearance of non-human intelligence operating technology beyond our own capacities. This is a very curious thing. Why does it appear to us near the turn of the century as French, Japanese or Scandinavian airship pilots? Why do they appear to us later as flying saucers, as balls of light, as triangular ships, as football field sized flat motherships? Why do some people report seeing spiked balls, robots, hotels, giant tanks, faceless creatures, floating eyeballs, greys, reptoids, nordics, insectoids and three-fingered floating goblins? Why does the phenomenon change across time periods with its appearances to be something that appears to be a collaboration between the witness and the stimulus? Why does it appear to defy space and time? How long has it actually been here for? Is the phenomenon connected to global or astronomical events? Why is it causing us to ask all these questions? Is it an invitation?

There is much to suggest that not only is it ET visiting, but half the galaxy is visiting in its diversity of appearances, or that a game of camouflage is taking place. But I don't think there is much out there that actually proves that it's ET. This is a hypotheses from long ago, replaced already by others which were displaced in turn and now we are in a time period, where we can say with more open mindedness, that ideological perspectives are not helping the discussion but causing distractions. Isn't that where contemporary research is taking the discussion? Does starting with ET actually helps us in any way?

Re: questions of alien infallibility....well, as discussed on Misterioso, Chris Rutkowski's theory called "AINT" (Alien INcompetence Theory) might well be in operation and after traversing the galaxy there were just so many unforeseen circumstances that interrupted their glorious Type II and Type III civilization's magical technologies that caused them to crash on little ole' earth. I really do find that mostly impossible and highly improbable, but it's possible I suppose. While it makes sense that there are other civilizations gathering total knowledge about all that is taking place in this galaxy (Wargo's recent ETH variant strain) and that part of what we call the UFO phenomenon may in fact be a by-product of this knowledge gathering enterprise, I don't think we have any actual evidence of this, just a speculation and a sensible theory. We should get more suspicious and less assumptive about it all as that will lead us to other possibilities of discovery, as opposed to trying to force the anomalous polymorphic shape into the saucer shaped hole.

 

[DaveM]

One of my favorite explanations of star travel came from the program Stargate SG-1. When the SG-1 team encounter an alien race that didn't use the Stargate to arrive in our solar system, Dr. Daniel Jackson inquires how this alien race traveled across our galaxy. The alien person (in human form, of course) puts both palms of his hands side by side and then folds them together. Don't ask me which season and episode this took place.

He gave Jackson the simplest explanation a stupid human could understand.

 

[Robert Baird]

Dear Burnt

I suppose you mean confrontational in this remark of yours.

We should get more suspicious and less conformational about it all as that will lead us to other possibilities of discovery, as opposed to trying to force the anomalous polymorphic shape into the saucer shaped hole

I have certainly suggested we try to develop a plan to get the release of documents and open discourse about REAL possibilities.

a/ Weather weaponizing - HAARP, Reichean Orgone at Roswell
b/ Plans to defend Earth against any Alien invasion
c/ Black Ops at Skunk Works and S-4
4/ Space Colonization and nanotechnological robots to clean up pollution and stop the water level rising soon.
5/ Persinger's projection helmetry and space based mind control that causes visions in sensitive people and adds to other memes already in place for millennia
6/ Anything related to this giant Hide the Ball initiative which takes people's attention away from what we need to plan for
7/ And anything else anyone wants

But in order to achieve THAT we would actually have to plan and have real discourse including an understanding of psy-ops throughout millennia.

 

[Robert Baird]

Dear Dave

Yes, folding space - I remember that.

It leads to wormhole issues but robots might go first to stabilize it.

Hero of Alexandria taught at the Library of Alexandria and was someone who worked on cybernetics. I suspect he had access to earlier writings in the Great Library which included what he is now credited with inventing. That includes a steam engine and wind turbines. Could these have powered the lights drawn in the Cave of Hathor where the academics have no way to explain how artists drew the designs and no candle or oil residue remains? Could his machinery have powered the craft drawn on walls at Abydos. Yes, no alien technology need apply. This power source has no explosive element which would facilitate a controlled flight and hovering.

Hero of Alexandria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[dmanister]

No, it makes no sense at all outside of dumb chance. I wasn't doubting that criticism, just pointing out that our own technologies are excruciatingly far behind other possible space faring civilizations, especially if they are faring in our direction. We are nowhere close to the skills that they have acquired making our sticks and stones stuff pretty low end. That we have the ability to complete such marvelous "sticks and stones" touchdowns is only watered down by the great number of crashes that have rendered many of our own space missions incomplete. We are still fairly limited in terms of what we can get up to.

But yes, one must consider that the likelihood of one alien craft crashing here due to chance is quite small and that multiple crashes would represent possibly profound alien inadequacies and paradoxes such as: extreme short-sightedness, a willingness to waste incredible amounts resources, stupidity, a lack of communication amongst diverse species etc...what's more likely is that there have been no crashes at all, or perhaps one. Though, as Clark has pointed out, historically, the notion of an alien ship crashing on earth being kept secret, is absolutely impossible. As he says, you just can't hide such things from history. It doesn't matter how well the military or any black ops group has things compartmentalized, such an event is simply too large for it to remain hidden from human history for any real length of time, rendering most conspiracy theories around the disclosure movement to be mostly a waste of time.

When evaluating the ETH it's important to bear in mind that our spacecraft are currently travelling billions of miles away from Earth.

When the New Horizons probe reaches Pluto, about 3 BILLION miles from Earth, it will be the fifth craft to head so far away from Earth (the other ones being Pioneer 10 and Pioneer 11, and Voyager 1 and Voyager 2, which are either in the outer solar system or in the case of Voyager 1, interstellar space.)

Doesn't this make it appear more likely that extra-terrestrial craft are reaching Earth? And probably not piloted by live crews?

 

[Robert Baird]

Dear DR

It appears to me that you are in need of hearing "You are right."

There you are.

Now what is the meaning of what you are saying and why is it on this thread?

Are you saying an advanced sentient race of beings far older (as most will be if they can develop spacecraft - and because we are a young solar system.) than us are only able to do what we have done in the past rather than spend our time and resources developing our abilities?

Are you saying that all the reports of aliens visiting in manned crafts are wrong?

Or is it relevant to the most likely explanation of UFOs which crash being human attempts at spying and other military or terrorist (Dare I say control of citizenry) objectives?

 

[dmanister]

DissectionStalker wrote:

"Once media hysteria takes hold then the ET-UFO phenomena just goes off the deep end. Don't forget the media makes Big Money off this kind of reporting too! ET-UFO's will ALWAYS sell and make money for the newspapers and radio stations. ET-UFO's are far more interesting than some military test program, and the military just loves "the cover" ET-UFO's provide them to hide what they're really doing too."

Yes UFOs are a MEME, a self-replicating organism like a virus that spreads and enters human consciousness through the media.

When the subtlety of a meme contagion isn't understood, it seems as if a multitude of similar reports of sightings and abductions are proof of the reality of the experiences, when in fact most of the population has been subliminally exposed to the UFO meme, which has lodged in their minds in ways that operate outside of conscious awareness. Not to say there is a deliberate attempt to do that. It's just the way memes work.

 

[Robert Baird]

Great! Now that we agree on that, what more does a meme contain and how can we free ourselves from the affect of them and the more insidious elements of Neuro Linguistic Programming and brainwashing which is in all media (including schools)?

Could we agree that religions have promoted fear and alien visits rather than admitting they are mere and simple humans like the rest of us, in order to be the interpreters for those aliens or gods they are always telling us they represent or are descendants of?

Could we see governing society is hard when so many people still see these memetic or archetypal visions?

 

[dmanister]

We all have memes operating in our minds that entered us through literature, paintings, sculpture, movies, radio, podcasts, the internet, tv shows, newspapers, magazines and even conversation. We can't avoid them.

Most of them do little or no harm, and some make it possible to communicate with a kind of verbal shorthand, since other people can see the entire meme from being given a few clues.

However. When someone has a puzzling experience, the mind tries to find an explanation for it, and may offer up a meme as a solution. People who don't understand that a pop culture narrative can lodge in their subconscious may be convinced that it really happened to them.

If Ufology were more sophisticated and educated in the ways our psychology works, better evaluations of sightings and abduction reorts would be possible.

 

[Randall]

We all have memes operating in our minds that entered us through literature, paintings, sculpture, movies, radio, podcasts, the internet, tv shows, newspapers, magazines and even conversation. We can't avoid them.

Most of them do little or no harm, and some make it possible to communicate with a kind of verbal shorthand, since other people can see the entire meme from being given a few clues.

However. When someone has a puzzling experience, the mind tries to find an explanation for it, and may offer up a meme as a solution. People who don't understand that a pop culture narrative can lodge in their subconscious may be convinced that it really happened to them.

If Ufology were more sophisticated and educated in the ways our psychology works, better evaluations of sightings and abduction reorts would be possible.

Great post. As someone who unapologetically considers himself to be a ufologist, I completely agree. I've made it a point to consider the psychology involved, and it can become a very complex discussion because there are so many facets to it. However, in the end, I am still convinced that alien craft ( UFOs ) aren't simply a psychological manifestation, but are objectively real material objects.

 

[Robert Baird]

Are you sure they are alien?

If you are sure of that I would love to hear or see you explain the technology so we can use it to get to Mars or start our space colonizing program. I started a thread which includes my ideas on that possibility. And of course, if we can colonize space it is almost certain millions of other sentient creatures can too.

 

[Robert Baird]

Dear DR

You say: However. When someone has a puzzling experience, the mind tries to find an explanation for it, and may offer up a meme as a solution. People who don't understand that a pop culture narrative can lodge in their subconscious may be convinced that it really happened to them.

Some of those 'experiences' are in fact not experiences at all. The modern tools of neurology give us the ability to track false memory to the point it should be used in courts and every political debate - it ferrets out lies. Some of those lies are 'projections' or possession carried interfaces that include CONstructs which may even seem real to a fully awake person such as David Icke when he saw shape-shifters, for example.

Many threads I have placed here deal with these psychological archetypes, implants, visions, hallucinations etc. The Third Eye, The World Mind and Earth Computer as well as anything addressing Tesla are worth reading.

 

[Randall]

Are you sure they are alien?.

As sure as I am of many other things, like as sure as water is a liquid.

If you are sure of that I would love to hear or see you explain the technology so we can use it to get to Mars or start our space colonizing program. I started a thread which includes my ideas on that possibility. And of course, if we can colonize space it is almost certain millions of other sentient creatures can too.

By definition, being alien makes UFOs something from outside our collective human civilization, which also means they are by nature mysterious. We can know this to be the case without knowing all the details. In fact if we knew all the details, then a good case could be made that such craft are no longer alien, but rather transports from Zeta Reticuli ( or whatever the case may be ). So unfortunately, while I can be sure that UFOs are alien, that in no way makes me qualified to explain how they work.

 

[Robert Baird]

So your mind (Memes and programs) are still working without fact or reason. You see what you want to and get what you need from it. So be it, maybe Scientology will take over government and you can apply for a visa to wherever L. Ron resides with Xenu.

Sorry for being so crass, I do know how seductive these visions can be. If on the other hand you are talking about Contact of a non-corporeal nature with sentience and consciousness in other parts of Universe or dimensional means - there I can agree it is worth further investigation. But you have said it is "craft' which are alien so that is not what we are discussing here - at this moment.

I probably have more hands on contact with people who work or worked at Area 51 and Tonopah or the Skunk Works doing what is called Back engineering or taking photos of the craft called UFOs than anyone here. Lived next to the Nellis Base which does not officially exist. All of it is Earth technology and always was. I used to think we did not have the means to do such things in the early 1900s or in ancient times. I know that is not true now.

 

[dmanister]

Great post. As someone who unapologetically considers himself to be a ufologist, I completely agree. I've made it a point to consider the psychology involved, and it can become a very complex discussion because there are so many facets to it. However, in the end, I am still convinced that alien craft ( UFOs ) aren't simply a psychological manifestation, but are objectively real material objects.

Rather than discrediting reports, an educated evaluation of the possible psychological factors that may color or distort memories of sightings or abduction experiences can only render the reports that pass the test more credible.

It's no surprise that educated psychologists dismiss abductees' "memories." Because a memory is not always a memory, no matter how emotional and sincere the person is who believes what he or she is "recalling." There are a multitude of psychological and neurological explanations that can account for sightings of ET or abduction narratives, of which Ufology seems to be almost completely unaware.

No research is respectable when it ignores what science already knows about how perceptions are distorted.