Kathleen Marden and Denise Stoner

[Fcseven]

Interesting article from webmd.

Most adults remember little before their third or fourth birthdays, and the thinking has been that prior to this age children do not have the cognitive or language skills to process and store events as memories.

 

[pickles]

The one thing that stood out was people of "Cherokee and Irish" descent being more likely to have some sort of abduction experience, if I understood that correctly.

Common theme - alcohol.

j/k

 

[Artyom]

I'm listening now. Is it just me or was a segment repeated? I didn't take note of the exact time but it was around the 1h10 minute mark.

Yes indeed, meaning we aren't in the Matrix cause you're observing the repeating -)

 

[Jimi H.]

..
It might just be me though, ive always had an Eidetic memory, which has been very useful in life.
I dont get lost for example, if im in a car and taken someplace, i can retrace that route even years later with total accuracy.
It drives my wife crazy sometimes, because im always right.

Hah

..

To this very day friends will not play trivial pursuit with me, i take all the fun out of the game they say

Fascinating stuff Mike, thanks for the story.

 

[Jimi H.]

Common theme - alcohol.

Joking or not, I think a cultural explanation is quite likely, as I think we're dealing with a cultural phenomenon in the first place.

I personally think that Catholics are more susceptible to expect being 'visited' by supernatural beings at night, than Protestants.
In Northern Europe you virtually never hear about abductions, and you don't expect to be in direct contact with spirits or whatever. I've never heard as many ghosts stories etc from European sources as when I studied in Ireland for a semester.

 

[Pegusta]

A pretty interesting episode, although I enjoyed the discussion prior to the interview more than the actual interview in itself. The interview seems to me to be the same rehash of ET-abduction theme "research". Nothing new under the sun really.

Gene and Chris: I commend you on asking tough questions. Questions which seemed to be hard to answer in this case. I mean what is up with "it has to be ET because one has to believe, or else abduction research is useless?" Huh? Belief has very little to do with research to begin with.

It seems to be a common theme not just in abduction research but also in general UFO research:

1. Drop the objectivity early on by;
2. Jumping to unfounded conclusions.
3. Defending that position to the last breath.


I get the distinct impression that abduction research is a lost cause at this point. A dead end has been reached, and I don’t think that we currently can find our way back. The data is very uncertain, due to largely having been tainted by inept methods and preconceived ideas.

 

[Jeff Davis]

I just wanted to thank Gene and Chris for this episode that I have not listened to yet. I will be listening asap. This time of the year finds me typically so busy that I just have to openly and clearly apologize for not being more contributing. It's simply not physically possible unless I quit my job which my wife assures me is not an option! I subscribe to the UFO updates list and took note recently (yesterday) of how Marden was being recieved there by some of the participants. I wrote a respectible (IMO) letter in response but it looks like it may have gotten "lost" so I'll share it here with my paracast friends. I had ZERO idea that Marden had recently been on the Paracast at the time and I am very disapointed in myself over that fact.

Kathleen Marden,
I for one, as do many, appreciate your work greatly. As an individual with a life long UFO fascination I find it absolutely impossible to just dismiss the Abduction Phenomena due to a lack of substantiated evidence or material proof. I have been around long enough to know that there are in fact MANY charlatans mixed into the Alien Abduction "research" werks (sic), as there are many a snake oil peddler mixed in with the UFO nuts n bolts crowd as well. As I have stated, I find you to presently be well outside that aforementioned questionable camp, and am truly grateful for your efforts.

When you experience routine backlashes from the less than supportive public, please try and understand that what you are experiencing is merely a healthy base human animal instinct in action. Survival and propagation is all there really is with respect to subject matter relevant cognitive interpretation and reciprocal expression. When there are no complete absolute definitions, as there are NONE in this field (UFO or Abduction), the imagination and those previously mentioned base instincts do love to foxtrot something fierce. Us humans are a passionate bunch.

To all those well meaning and indeed very important UFO researchers that perceive serious attention paid to the AP (Abduction Phenomena) as a direct threat to the UFO's successful introductory reception within the scientific establishment's accredited acceptance, and further, the possible preservation of a legitimate proclamation by the scientific community of a genuine long term UFO study, relax.

It should not take a "rocket scientist" to recognize a rocket clearly crashing back into good ol' glorious and familiar Terra Firma. That's precisely what the old school nuts and bolts camp has done for "Ufology" by projecting it's own scientific temporal relevance upon it. I'm sorry guys, but science now CLEARLY points to the probable fact that UFOs are NOT spaceships that bring sight seeing aliens from other planets located in outer space. If UFOs do indeed fly through space, they do it in a way that bears ZERO likeness to anything we might temporally project upon them in accord with present prototypical technology as we understand it, as if we could ever do that in some comic book future manifest sense. That's not occam's razor in action, just great science fiction that includes just one possible hypothetical answer for that which has all but been put to bed permanently.

The bottom line here is that humanity does not even begin to understand the nature/reality within which it lives. We would like to think we do, I mean here we are walking around using our smart phones and such, right? However, in the REAL scientific world, we literally prove to ourselves on an almost daily basis that we don't have a clue. This same clueless stuff that we can "see" but just can't "touch" *IS* the nature, representing the very natural concepts that we presently have no PUBLIC understanding of, that UFOs most likely utilize with the same ease we gained access to various non indigenous areas of our own planet such as underwater/sea over the last several hundred year period. In the real scheme of things with respect for our scientific progress as a possible member species within a much larger environment in which UFOs hypothetically reside, or merely incorporate partial aspects of, we are most likely about 3 steps outside the nearest cave's entrance from which we originally evolved.

The problem with man is the fact his/her nature is so brutally and aggressively animalistic in it's instinctual ways, we do a large scale "reformat" (extinction level event) long before we ever attain an evolutionary height great enough to reach a level of working facilitation with respect to this next hypothetically natural evolutionary plateau.

Ask yourselves this question please: Planet Earth: Where (location) did life begin here, where is life now (location), where would it be 1,000,000 years from now (hypothetical location)?

"A scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it."
Max Planck

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Sincerely,
Jeff Davis

 

[Jimi H.]

..
To all those well meaning and indeed very important UFO researchers that perceive serious attention paid to the AP (Abduction Phenomena) as a direct threat to the UFO's successful introductory reception within the scientific establishment's accredited acceptance, ...

Yea, because it's more like a cult than a group of scientific peers. It's becoming/it is a belief system.

What do we get on the receiving end? We get no evidence in combination with denial of documented effects of sleep paralysis, medicine etc. In this show, I noticed all the badmouthing of the damn sceptics with all their documented, objective facts. It literally made me feel ill, it is cult-like. Also, there's a permanent denial of the vast cultural differences and what those differences might indicate: Why do 'aliens' not abduct secular Europeans, but only New Age or Christian or post-Christian Americans?

..
I'm sorry guys, but science now CLEARLY points to the probable fact that UFOs are NOT spaceships that bring sight seeing aliens from other planets located in outer space.

Science does? Didn't science suck? Please indulge me? Are you arguing that science is wrong because science is right? How does this work?

..
The problem with man is the fact his/her nature is so brutally and aggressively animalistic in it's instinctual ways, we do a large scale "reformat" (extinction level event) long before we ever attain an evolutionary height great enough to reach a level of working facilitation with respect to this next hypothetically natural evolutionary plateau.

Indeed, science and enlightenment was a massive step forward to humanity. I see certain branches of ufology desperatly trying to yank humanity back into the madness of superstition and religious zealotry. I see people on these forum, and elsewhere, deny science (e.g. science on climate change) when it doesn't fit into their belief system and their comfort zone.

..
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer
.

Have you read Planck and Schopenhauer, or was it just a grab to suit the situation? Schopenhauer was a meta-physical thinker, whom I happen to adore. But I would never, ever argue the objective reality of his worldview (that we are powerless manifestations of The Will, a non-moral entity) in a scientific sense. It just doesn't make sense. We can't 'calculate' God or whatever. Science deals with the material world.

So please, people, either shut up about science, or get it right. Or, why not just be honest and say it like it is:

PS: Here's how I feel:

 

[Gene Steinberg]

OK, when we asked whether there was any racial or religious preference on the part of these abductors, we were told no. Listen to the episode again if you missed that discussion. That flies against the perception that it's strictly a Christian phenomenon.

 

[Jeff Davis]

Science does? Didn't science suck? Please indulge me? Are you arguing that science is wrong because science is right? How does this work?

Jimi H.,
Brother, I think you would be hard pressed to find a quote where I stated "science sucked"

FYI: Science is NEVER wrong. People are. Science is no road map Jimi.

On a daily basis via mathematically sound science, we find our ASSUMED scientific world being turned on it's ear. Materialism is fast becoming a belief system of the past.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Jimi H.,
Brother, I think you would be hard pressed to find a quote where I stated "science sucked"

FYI: Science is NEVER wrong. People are. Science is no road map Jimi.

On a daily basis via mathematically sound science, we find our ASSUMED scientific world being turned on it's ear. Materialism is fast becoming a belief system of the past.

Actually science is often wrong and it is constantly changing to adapt to new evidence - that's what makes it great. Show a scientist evidence that proves something and they will accept it.

 

[Jeff Davis]

OK, when we asked whether there was any racial or religious preference on the part of these abductors, we were told no. Listen to the episode again if you missed that discussion. That flies against the perception that it's strictly a Christian phenomenon.

One only has to study Vallee to know that "abductions" have been interpreted in temporal context for THOUSANDS of years around the planet. I really can't imagine being that "new" to this game wherein you believe that the AP is exclusive to the Western world. The only thing that the Western world has done for the AP is mass market it. They made their brand/conception VERY recognizable in typical Western fashion. Now there's an advanced, or what I might refer to as "neo primitive" thing to do eh?

 

[Jeff Davis]

Actually science is often wrong and it is constantly changing to adapt to new evidence - that's what makes it great. Show a scientist evidence that proves something and they will accept it.

Like I said, it's the people using Science that are wrong. Scientific findings get revised. It's people that get it wrong.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Like I said, it's the people using Science that are wrong. Scientific findings get revised. It's people that get it wrong.

I'm not sure what that means...

Denise Stoner said she had some incredible experiences, and no one else (except for people close to her) was there, so all we have is her word. That is not good enough to be sure it happened exactly as she thinks it did, or if it did at all.
So there are a few options: 1. She misinterpreted what happened and we don't know the cause and never will; 2. It happened exactly as it did and the whole way we understand reality is completely wrong; 3. She's making it all up to sell books and to gain some notoriety for some reason.

Which one is it? Well, common sense says it's 1 or 3 because those are possible right now with how we understand our universe.

 

[Jeff Davis]

I'm not sure what that means...

Denise Stoner said she had some incredible experiences, and no one else (except for people close to her) was there, so all we have is her word. That is not good enough to be sure it happened exactly as she thinks it did, or if it did at all.

So, we realize that we cannot use a branch of the material sciences to validate her claims, correct? No matter what any quick internet dictionary passage might lead us to believe, science is NOT knowledge itself. Science is a disciplined means by which knowledge is obtained, classified, and validated. However material science is hardly the only type at our disposal right? Has the woman had a polygraph? Did Miss Marden use a battery of qualified psychological testing on the hypothetical abductee?

So there are a few options: 1. She misinterpreted what happened and we don't know the cause and never will; 2. It happened, although we have no real clue what it was that happened. The whole way we understand reality is somewhat wrong;

3. She's making it all up to sell books and to gain some notoriety for some reason.

Which one is it? Well, common sense says it's 2 because we are discovering things everyday that clearly indicate that things are NOT as they seem. As we have BELIEVED them to be for a very long time now.

I changed things around a bit so you would get my point from an altered perspective. The emboldened words in Angelo's quote above are the words of one JEFF DAVIS and not Angelo, or Angle of Ioren.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

So, we realize that we cannot use a branch of the material sciences to validate her claims, correct? No matter what any quick internet dictionary passage might lead us to believe, science is NOT knowledge itself. Science is a disciplined means by which knowledge is obtained, classified, and validated. However material science is hardly the only type at our disposal right? Has the woman had a polygraph? Did Miss Marden use a battery of qualified psychological testing on the hypothetical abductee?




I changed things around a bit so you would get my point from an altered perspective.

Maybe you should edit that so that it doesn't look like I said it that way? If that's what you think it's fine, but it looks like I said it because it's in a box that says "Angel of Ioren says."

Thanks.

 

[Jimi H.]

OK, when we asked whether there was any racial or religious preference on the part of these abductors, we were told no. Listen to the episode again if you missed that discussion. That flies against the perception that it's strictly a Christian phenomenon.

I didn't say it was strictly Christian. I think it is even more post-Christian, namely people from a religious background dealing with modernity, seeking meaning elsewhere.

Nietszche described the negative post-Christian condition better than anyone imo: The loss of religious meaning, nihilism and how some people would simply crack from it. Because they were still slaves, as he put it, to religion. Some people need a Master, he said, critically, and sadly, that's the insight the Nazis perverted. Some abduction-hoaxers do it to, they create a Master species, e.g. Icke's reptilians (Icke the Holocaust denier).

In the alien-religion, people serve the whims of the perceived alien masters. And many even think the aliens 'designed us', genetically. Thus, UFO-beliefs become a total replacement of classic religion: The creators have come back - this time with a vengeance. And devils too..

Of course, I can't disprove the abduction stories with cultural 'facts', but I think there is a good case for the cultural explanation in combination with various physiological effects.
Wiki writes, and it's probably very close to the truth: "Mainstream scientists and mental health professionals overwhelmingly doubt that the phenomenon occurs literally as reported.." Alien abduction entities - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .
In short, abduction cases are the antidote to scientific involvement, except to study the paranormal culture itself. "As Sagan said: It is good to be open-minded, but not so open your brains fall out. " That's where I'm at personally with this topic of abduction. There is no good evidence, but there are obviously lots of people living a frightful spiritual life infused with evil aliens. I'm personally not going to cater to this negative spirituality by rolling over on demanding evidence. And I believe I am doing others a service by insisting they see a psychologist instead of an alien abduction 'researcher'/healer.

Geography:
I have followed the main Danish reporting centre (SUFOI - which 'everyone' knows in Denmark, but which sadly does nothing but publish all the reports they get) for a couple of decades on/off, I have never seen one single abduction report (mind you, I missed a lot, but I've read a lot too). Similarly, I can't remember seeing abduction reports from the rest of Scandinavia. The UK, yes. But the UK also has a strong Catholic tradition compared to the rest of Northern Europe and especially Scandinavia, and the UK is generally more influenced by American culture than the rest of Europe.

Anyways, these things are hard to quantify, but it is my clear impression that there are clear geographical differences. This also means that there are cultural differences.
People influence each other, thus cultural differences arise between families (abductions run in the family) or on the macro-level between geographical regions.

 

[exo_doc]

Common theme - alcohol.

j/k

While the Irish have made consuming alcohol a cultural thing and make fun of just how much they drink, Native Americans do not. Alcoholism is a huge problem for Native Americans, one they have been struggling with for a long time.
In any event, I really doubt alcohol factors into abduction scenarios.

 

[Jimi H.]

Materialism is fast becoming a belief system of the past.

It's not that you don't make sense to me on a philosophical level, you do. I am no atheist, atheism doesn't make a lot of rational sense to me. But I don't expect science to answer my spiritual or philosophical problems, or explain immaterial things.

Regardless that I switched from the natural sciences at college because it was actually too dry for me, I still won't believe specific immaterial things reported by individual humans (like in catholicism). If I was into believing others, I could just lean back and read the Bible, or other stories which, besides the dry 'facts', also feature beautyful language and poetry and rhythm.

 

[Jimi H.]

..
In any event, I really doubt alcohol factors into abduction scenarios.

Yea, it takes a lot of alcohol to reach hallucinogenic levels. Expect withdrawals can give the alcoholic hallucinogenic experiences, that's my understanding anyway.

If some abduction stories actually mask stories of abuse, then perhaps the alcohol is relevant?