Kathleen Marden and Denise Stoner

[exo_doc]

Yea, it takes a lot of alcohol to reach hallucinogenic levels. Expect withdrawals can give the alcoholic hallucinogenic experiences, that's my understanding anyway.

If some abduction stories actually mask stories of abuse, then perhaps the alcohol is relevant?

I wonder what the stats are on alcoholic abductees? I mean the ratio of non-substance abusers to admitted (or otherwise) substance abusers.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Apropos of nothing, a key difference between the Stoner incidents and other abduction reports is that she had encounters outside of her home. While you can argue sleep paralysis in many situations, two people (she and her husband) reporting the identical missing time episodes warrants further study. You can say they are making it all up, of course, but that creates a higher threshold of proof. Is there something internally in the claims, other than the extraordinary nature, that validates such suspicions? Does she have a background in which she has been known to deceive people in other ways? Not that I've heard about.

I am not one to claim abductions are the result of ET encounters. They could be the result of encounters with some form of higher intelligence or force that we do not understand. It could be a cultural phenomenon of some kind, but when the experiences involve implants and apparent physical sightings of UFOs, it appears more may be involved here.

 

[Jeff Davis]

Gene,
Another thing that makes little sense to me is the "making this up to gain popularity, cultural accreditation, or of all things money". I can certainly think of many MUCH better ways to do any three of those without claiming an alien abduction took place. I mean, at this point in the Western AP game, in terms of intelligent people/authors, who would not be familiar with what kind of irreverence such a proclaimed association brings? It's typically not a good thing.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Gene,
Another thing that makes little sense to me is the "making this up to gain popularity, cultural accreditation, or of all things money". I can certainly think of many MUCH better ways to do any three of those without claiming an alien abduction took place. I mean, at this point in the Western AP game, in terms of intelligent people/authors, who would not be familiar with what kind of irreverence such a proclaimed association brings? It's typically not a good thing.

That's still a more plausible explanation than aliens abducting her, which is what she wants us to think. If she wasn't interested in selling her story, but in this case she is doing exactly that. I am not saying that this is what she is doing, but it is plausible.

 

[Jimi H.]

Apropos of nothing, a key difference between the Stoner incidents and other abduction reports is that she had encounters outside of her home. While you can argue sleep paralysis in many situations, two people (she and her husband) reporting the identical missing time episodes warrants further study. You can say they are making it all up, of course, but that creates a higher threshold of proof.

Yes, it must be considered, if there is supporting evidence, or other reports. But people do conspire. It's probably more fun than to do it on your own. Maybe that was the case with Travis Walton and his logging buddies? This wouldn't be the first time, regardless. Though, I previously mentioned that the shared experience involving 'missing time' sounded like a hallucinogenic trip. There is no way of knowing, and that's the problem. The hallucinogenic angle is unlikely, but the time-rift thing is simply on a completely other scale of unlikely.

Is there something internally in the claims, other than the extraordinary nature, that validates such suspicions? Does she have a background in which she has been known to deceive people in other ways? Not that I've heard about.

To me, they are not believeable: The writer works for MUFON, she wrote a book about it, but she couldn't care enough to document it on video because a battery got para-normally drained? What's going on? I consider that if they managed to keep their cameras running, they could be the first to record an alien abduction. Another camera records the camera, another camera records that. Three in all. Even better, volunteers on nightshifts agree to keep their eyes on a screen, and send a message to a network of volunteers: Observe now. People could come to the front of the house, prepared to record the return of the party, as it descended. For that minor effort (considering MUFON) , they could also get those heavy monetary rewards that are offered for evidence. We are talking re-writing of libraries of books, this is the big-time, they just have to keep a couple of cameras rolling.
But no, the writer goes on a book tour.

I am not one to claim abductions are the result of ET encounters. They could be the result of encounters with some form of higher intelligence or force that we do not understand. It could be a cultural phenomenon of some kind, but when the experiences involve implants and apparent physical sightings of UFOs, it appears more may be involved here.

Yea, as soon as we have other more tangible evidence, or reports from several sources, then there is a case. But in that case I think the parts involving evidence and the number of unrelated sources would be more important than the personal abduction report itself, at least until we had established that something happened in the first place.

PS: Previously, I was searching for the term 'revealed religion', that's what I was getting at when distinguishing between types of Christianity. Many of the personal abd. stories sound akin to what you find in those non-descript accounts of personal revelations you can find in Catholic cafes or bookstores and such.

 

[Jimi H.]

Gene,
Another thing that makes little sense to me is the "making this up to gain popularity, cultural accreditation, or of all things money". I can certainly think of many MUCH better ways to do any three of those without claiming an alien abduction took place. I mean, at this point in the Western AP game, in terms of intelligent people/authors, who would not be familiar with what kind of irreverence such a proclaimed association brings? It's typically not a good thing.

I would certainly not advise to go there, but if you ever spent time surfing Above Top Secret's ufo-forums, I think you'd agree that to a certain crowd, being 'abducted' by aliens makes you super-cool and special.

 

[Jeff Davis]

I would certainly not advise to go there, but if you ever spent time surfing Above Top Secret's ufo-forums, I think you'd agree that to a certain crowd, being 'abducted' by aliens makes you super-cool and special.

LOL! Yes, there is much to be laughed at within the ATS forums. I remember one guy that claimed he could only see a particular multidimensional alien that was making regular visitations to his living room by sitting in a chair facing away from the alien while observing it's likeness as it reflected within the shiny surface of a certain mixing bowel he possessed. Now that's some first contact!

 

[Jimi H.]

Hah, that sounds like ATS alright!

 

[mike]

I have zero problem with the idea UFO's are ET in origin and that abductions occur.

For the simple reason it mirrors an existing model that takes place right here.

We ourselves use structured craft to travel to places not native to us, and abduct, study and seek out new species.
We do so for a variety of reasons, to study the behaviour of species and to do so we tag them with tracking devices
We do so for the sake of knowledge, and also to discover new species of plants and animals with a view of understanding and perhaps exploiting the specific genetic expressions.

If places like the amazon are important repositorys of unique DNA expressions for us, why wouldnt that be the same for any other species with a view to discovering new useful biological products.

For years weve been hung up with the idea it doesnt make sense to abduct humans over and over again just to check their reproductive organs, but recent advances in our own science may give us a new angle to consider

Scientists have for the first time used DNA to encode the contents of a book. At 53,000 words, and including 11 images and a computer program, it is the largest amount of data yet stored artificially using the genetic material.
The researchers claim that the cost of DNA coding is dropping so quickly that within five to 10 years it could be cheaper to store information using this method than in conventional digital devices.

DNA has numerous advantages over traditional digital storage media. It can be easily copied, and is often still readable after thousands of years in non-ideal conditions. Unlike ever-changing electronic storage formats such as magnetic tape and DVDs, the fundamental techniques required to read and write DNA information are as old as life on Earth.

If thats whats happening, then a lot of things fall into place, the sperm and ova would be the best place to retrieve and encode new data to, tagging the "biological volumes/books" makes sense we do the same in our librarys. Sticking to certain bloodlines etc etc. Even Robert Hastings angle on this enigma fits here. If earth is being used as a great library using DNA storage of data, nukes could easily corrupt that data, Imagine youve been storing vast amounts of data on a biological media for thousands of years , and suddenly the locals let loose so much radiation it all gets corrupted.


Heres what we do know

Life can become sentient as it evolves on a planet
WE can encode information in DNA
We build structured craft and travel to places not native to us as individuals
We capture study and tag other species
We seek new species with a view to using the unique expressions they embody

Around 70 percent of all new drugs introduced in the United States in the past 25 years have been derived from natural products, reports a study published in the March 23 issue of the Journal of Natural Products. The findings show that despite increasingly sophisticated techniques to design medications in the lab, Mother Nature is still the best drug designer.​

Read more at http://news.mongabay.com/2007/0320-drugs.html#r8zYpVasQrR3eK4v.99​

Do you think we will stop at the amazon to find new "products" if we had FTL drives ? no we would extend that same practise to new planets

We know this planet orbits a star and has sentient life on it
We know the galaxy is full of billions of stars with planets..........

Looking at the existing model, i have no problems with making the leap and forming the opinion that the model we see here would logically be replicated everywhere.

Another parallel model , tool use.

Beck's Animal Tool Behavior was the first volume to catalog and analyze the complete literature on tool use and manufacture in non-human animals. Beck showed that animals—from insects to primates—employed different types of tools to solve numerous problems. His work inspired and energized legions of researchers to study the use of tools by a wide variety of species.

The Johns Hopkins University Press

In nature, models repeat

So the whole ET/abduction scenario, is just a repeat of a model we know exists for real right here.

Given we know models repeat, given we know our planet is one of billions apon billions......
I have no logical hurdles to jump in accepting the ET/abduction hypothesis

As ive stated before i think there is another twist to the story, one that isnt yet manifest in our own model, but one we are seeking to add to it as we speak.

And the mention of the claim that abductees say they are told "we are your family, we love you" may be a clue that confirms it.

IE the post biological hypothesis.

Paul Davies, a British-born theoretical physicist, cosmologist, astrobiologist and Director of the Beyond Center for Fundamental Concepts in Science and Co-Director of the Cosmology Initiative at Arizona State University, says in his new book The Eerie Silence that any aliens exploring the universe will be AI-empowered machines. Not only are machines better able to endure extended exposure to the conditions of space, but they have the potential to develop intelligence far beyond the capacity of the human brain.

"I think it very likely – in fact inevitable – that biological intelligence is only a transitory phenomenon, a fleeting phase in the evolution of the universe," Davies writes. "If we ever encounter extraterrestrial intelligence, I believe it is overwhelmingly likely to be post-biological in nature."
Before the year 2020, scientists are expected to launch intelligent space robots that will venture out to explore the universe for us.

Space and Earth Science: "Biological Intelligence is a Fleeting Phase in the Evolution of the Universe"

I think once our own local model includes this reality, it will all fit into place.........................

 

[Burnt State]

Regarding Jimi H's thoughts on this and Mike /\ above:

I tried to listen to this episode without my usual bias regarding AP and was waiting to be convinced by startling stories of AP. instead I got a lot of warning bells and very little by way of proof or even a compelling story, which in this case was all about Denise and Ed's strange journey.

For me the warning bells started with the personal hypnosis/regression training - one of them from an online site that is focussed on entity attachment - pretty hokey, if you ask me. The FBI lie detecting training was just icing on the pseudo-science cake. None of the studies they were talking about provided any convincing fare.

The notion of trying to call ET to come back to violate you at the family farm after such previously fearful events made zero sense.

The central story was also a litte loose stretching back to 2.5 year old memories. I don't believe in children sneaking back into their house in the midde of the night in wet pj's undetected. I don't believe in children not telling parents about life threatening events unless children are threatened in other ways and that brings up another set of issues altogether. During the desert abduction sequence apparently both dog and daughter were asleep? Given that there was another potential witness present I did not understand why there was no mention as to what Denise's daughter saw at this time.
Alcohol, or other hallucinogenic inducements, seems to be a little more likely. Like the story about people supposedly seeing each other on the spacecraft first at the ET soirée before meeting in real life, all we have is a story. It's about as tangible as Denise's implant that travelled down the arm and disappeared. I'd like to know a lot more about the Stoner's prior to this incident to get a better sense of their personal history and previous connections to the subject matter.

Mike mentions that we have precedent for abductions as seen in human science, but I wonder how much of that is just the transposition of a human paradigm onto cloudy, uncertain human experiences. Maybe that's just what makes sense, but it doesn't mean that's what's happening.

In the previous episode with Kathleen and Stanton I found a more sensible, even plausible discussion. This one stepped out over the edge a lot more, grasping at thinner straws. The whole scene where gramps continued on with the bath of the 2.5 year old upstairs with the egg shaped glowing craft parked outside set a poor, mostly unbelievable tone for this particular episode.

 

[mike]

Again i dont know the answers, but we use tools so do many other non human species here
We do abduct and tag other species for myriad reasons including entertainment as anyone whos watched meerkat manor can see
Given that we can see certain patterns repeat across terrestrial species, i dont havy any real problem with the idea this one wouldnt either.

 

[exo_doc]

Again i dont know the answers, but we use tools so do many other non human species here
We do abduct and tag other species for myriad reasons including entertainment as anyone whos watched meerkat manor can see
Given that we can see certain patterns repeat across terrestrial species, i dont havy any real problem with the idea this one wouldnt either.

Does that mean the ET's might have s show called "Primate Pad", or "Human Haven", or even "Idiots At Home"?

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Kathleen just didn't understand what Gene was getting at regarding whether ET is actually from another planet etc, nor did she get what he was talking about regarding whether they are telling us lies or the truth. she kept responding 'oh well, might as well not trust everything we research' - did anyone else pick up on her inability to get what he was actually saying? I found it frustrating, Gene wasn't trying to say anything other than we cannot necessarily trust what an ET might be telling an abductee, that's it.

I really enjoyed the show apart from that misunderstanding.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

She later said she was a bit under the weather during the episode, so I won't hold that against her.

 

[Burnt State]

Again i dont know the answers, but we use tools so do many other non human species here
We do abduct and tag other species for myriad reasons including entertainment as anyone whos watched meerkat manor can see
Given that we can see certain patterns repeat across terrestrial species, i dont havy any real problem with the idea this one wouldnt either.

I hear you, Mike. I have no answers either, but i do have lots of opinions. Nothing fascinates me more than tales of interacting with off planet life forms including abduction stories. They speak to me about the extremes of human perception, beliefs and possible experiences.

While the meerkat ant-farm approach to non human life forms here on earth is fairly consistent I would think that they would have a much more sophisticated approach to studying us than the old bag 'n' tag methodology. Not only is this very physical event not necessary to be repeated as often as AP literature suggests, but you would think that if you can travel all this way using super advanced tech then wouldn't you just be able to scan us with a nano probe and move on? The idea of space doctor's needing a constant supply of lab rats to examine, dissect, implant etc. just sounds archaic and incongruous with everything else they are theoretically able to do.

 

[mike]

I hear you, Mike. I have no answers either, but i do have lots of opinions. Nothing fascinates me more than tales of interacting with off planet life forms including abduction stories. They speak to me about the extremes of human perception, beliefs and possible experiences.

While the meerkat ant-farm approach to non human life forms here on earth is fairly consistent I would think that they would have a much more sophisticated approach to studying us than the old bag 'n' tag methodology. Not only is this very physical event not necessary to be repeated as often as AP literature suggests, but you would think that if you can travel all this way using super advanced tech then wouldn't you just be able to scan us with a nano probe and move on? The idea of space doctor's needing a constant supply of lab rats to examine, dissect, implant etc. just sounds archaic and incongruous with everything else they are theoretically able to do.

That is possible, however were we to use say DNA data encoding ourselves, say we picked a prolific species like rabits and began encoding the works of shakespere into their DNA, we would still need to capture and extract physical DNA to "read" the data.

Expand that to all the earths data stored in multiple species....
Expand that to multiple ET species data from many planets.....

That makes for a lot of abductions just to read data, add parity checks and writing new data.

This could explain bloodline based abductions, you would need to check a number of generations or copys of the data to ensure its been transfered without corruption, you would likely encode the same data in different bloodlines and cross check them for parity.

As our own science is finding out this is thus far the best way to store large amounts of data over very long periods of time

Deoxyribonucleic acid or DNA – the chemical that stores genetic instructions in almost all known organisms – has an impressive data capacity. One gram can store up to 455bn gigabytes: the contents of more than 100bn DVDs, making it the ultimate in compact storage media

still readable after thousands of years in non-ideal conditions. Unlike ever-changing electronic storage formats such as magnetic tape and DVDs

The problem (and perhaps the solution) is we tend to look at the alleged phenomena via the filter of our own experience, thus 20 years ago we were "seeing" gynaecological exams, today we have new possibilitys to consider such as the example above.

I predict that as our own science advances it will attain parity with whats actually happening, and at that point the "reasons" will be come apparent

 

[mike]

And thats just one possibility

Another is genetic uplift, which has imo been a valid speculation in the subject of human evolution

Nuclear transfer is the most efficient method of genetic manipulation we have yet developed. Cultured cells are transfected with the desired genes; these cells can then be analyzed to determine whether the integration of DNA is successful. Selected cells are starved so they will not divide, then the nucleus is inserted into the original egg. The transgenic animal is then born, hopefully expressing the desired gene

To Uplift or Not To Uplift: The Ethics of Genetic Manipulation

If thats whats happening then the abduction narrative fits perfectly

 

[mike]

Interesting article from webmd.

Most adults remember little before their third or fourth birthdays, and the thinking has been that prior to this age children do not have the cognitive or language skills to process and store events as memories.

Oddly enough i was taught basic reading before i started school at age five, i was reading "little golden books"
Little Golden Books - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
When i was four, to the effect that within a few weeks of starting school the headmaster came into class one day and the teacher pointed at me, i thought i was in some sort of trouble, he told me to get my books, bag and coat and come with him.
I was terrified, until he walked me to the next classroom, the next year up and placed me in it.
Having skipped a year, i was the youngest kid in my class from that day on for the rest of my school life, which compounded the issues i had with being the class brainiac, not only was i smarter than the other kids in the class, i was younger by a year.
The school libray was the only safe place for me, and i had to go there even after school ended for an hour to avoid the bullys
But that wasnt the only reason, i loved books still do. On weekends i would catch the train to the city and spend the whole of saturday in the NSW state library.
Oh how i loved that place, first grab a form and then to the dewey decimal card cabinets, filling out the reference numbers of the books i wanted, handing the form back and watching for them to come up from the stacks below.
As i mentioned we used to move a lot, i went to 10 schools all up. I would start at a new school library at the A's and read every scifi book they had through to the Z's
Once i did that i would move on to other topics

 

[Randall]

... I'm sorry guys, but science now CLEARLY points to the probable fact that UFOs are NOT spaceships that bring sight seeing aliens from other planets located in outer space ...

What science? So far as I've been able to tell, there's nothing unscientific about interstellar travel, we're constantly evolving our catalog of extrasolar planets ( 890 at last count ), we've got one space probe on the edge of interstellar space now, and there are plenty of concepts for future spacecraft based on real science. Therefore from a scientific perspective, given what we know, the ETH appears to not only be the most reasonable explanation, but it's gaining steam. On the other hand, your assertion is based on mere proclamation. You'll need to do better than that.

 

[mike]

UFO: New Jersey witness reports mass abduction : The Canadian Lifestyle Magazine

Perhaps a clue in this one

‘It communicated with me telepathically and I asked it what it was doing to us and it said "We are looking at your DNA." I asked it why it was doing this to us and it replied "All humans have alien DNA, but not all humans have the same alien DNA.”

Which would fit the DNA library scenario