March 18, 2018 — Rick Doty with J. Randall Murphy

[Constance]

I think it's the same LMH. I used to subscribe to the 'wow, she did such great work on cattle mutilations, what happened to her' story line, but if you go back and actually look at what she did do with A Strange Harvest and compare and contrast Chris' work in this space, there's literally no comparison. Sure ASH is well written and produced for a TV show in 1980, but it's certainly not gob-smackingly well researched or thought out. It just was at the time good compared to the other junk available.

Chris had the advantage of writing Stalking the Herd years after Howe wrote her book, and he had years in which to devote his energies to that subject. I edited the first half of Chris's book and am aware of the range of his research for that book. What I wonder about is whatever it is that motivates you to scorch the earth beneath LMH in comparing these two books.

I think she got lucky with ASH, and she's just always been off the deep end. Particularly her work with Strieber. She's either incredibly naive and credulous, or she views this as an income stream that needs constant stories to keep the money flowing.

Thus spake Marduk. Statements too extreme and arrogant and in this case belittling, degrading, to take seriously and respond to.

 

[marduk]

Chris had the advantage of writing Stalking the Herd years after Howe wrote her book, and he had years in which to devote his energies to that subject. I edited the first half of Chris's book and am aware of the range of his research for that book. What I wonder about is whatever it is that motivates you to scorch the earth beneath LMH in comparing these two books.



Thus spake Marduk. Statements too extreme and arrogant and in this case belittling, degrading, to take seriously and respond to.

If she had it together and then lost it, or never had it together to begin with, the result is the same.

The fact that he tries to make her out to be credible is classic distraction - because her stories are pure pulp science fiction too.

 

[pigfarmer]

I had to go back and listen to some of that again. Gut feeling says he might be telling most of the truth about Bennewitz. Can’t really say why other than the immediacy and tone of his answers. Nothing he said sounded too far-fetched and the poor guy did have a few mental issues. His wife moving the furniture because she’s pissed about his drinking just sounded more plausible than the NSA doing it. And funnier.

As for Serpo, which to my ear should be Serp-O a product you might use to deal with a snake problem, Roswell, Holloman and all that well, not so much. He said he has a wall full of books and is apparently thoroughly steeped in the subject matter so he has quite a knowledge base to draw from; he’s many things but stupid isn’t one of them. Again, something about his tone and the immediacy of his answers – a bit of hesitation – says he’s spinning tales. I’m pretty sure that if someone showed me a picture of what I thought was a real alien it would make quite an impression on me and I would be able to describe it in considerable detail right away. I would also think that based on his own numbers of 112 agents worldwide plus support staff during his period of service that someone, somewhere would have blurted out a detail or two.That's an old argument though.

Portraying himself as the Forrest Gump of UFO investigations works to his advantage. He has been paid for X-Files story lines, is a consultant for an upcoming movie etc. Means, motive, opportunity and he is telling us pretty much what we want to hear. Why would he agree to interviews in which he just says “nope – it was all Cold War disinformation and bullshit”? Ask John Alexander that one.

I will admit that in an unrelated setting I appointed myself Psychological Warfare Officer and slipped a few plausible sounding and partially correct rumors into a large machine just for the Joy of Chaos. He’s probably enjoying the hububbery as much as we are. Maybe he’s even reading this forum. People who do that thrive on the reaction.

But they are good tales and I am eager to hear whatever he has to say. Very entertaining. Curious to see what the movie is.

 

[Muadib]

I want to thank Randall for asking my questions, it's the first time that's ever happened on the show. I wasn't exactly impressed with Doty's answers but frankly, I wasn't expecting to be blown away. I have to laugh at him basically just repeating what Victor Martinez said in the Mirage Men doc almost word for word. I'm sorry but having read the Serpo material, I'm thoroughly unimpressed by the quality of the thought, writing and background scientific information that's presented therein. Every time I hear "I wish I wrote the Serpo material because it's just so good that whoever wrote it is either reporting on a real event or is one of the 21st centuries greatest writers of fiction," I cringe. If you think that utter nonsense is some great work of art, I'd suggest expanding your fiction reading beyond Clifford The Big Red Dog and Curious George.

I'd also like to welcome Chris back to the show, it just isn't the same without him. I've been critical of Chris's reaction to anyone who disagrees with him or his friends POV in the past, however, I think at this point he's more than a little burnt out on the Paracast and I can't say that I blame him. IMO the quality of the interviews and discussion when Chris is gone pales in comparison to when he's involved. You may not like him personally but I think it's pretty clear to any long time listener that, for the most part, it's Chris who does the vast majority of the heavy lifting involved with the show and he asks for and receives next to nothing in return. I think he's more than earned some respect and a bit of leeway. As much as I like Gene and most of the guest co-hosts, I personally wouldn't still be listening without Chris's involvement.

On a separate note, how ridiculous is it that people here are getting offended on behalf of a guest who wasn't in the least bit perturbed by how he was treated? Take your dumbass, I have nothing better to do than get bent out of shape on behalf of someone else garbage and hit the bricks with it. What a bunch of babies.

 

[marduk]

I had to go back and listen to some of that again. Gut feeling says he might be telling most of the truth about Bennewitz. Can’t really say why other than the immediacy and tone of his answers. Nothing he said sounded too far-fetched and the poor guy did have a few mental issues. His wife moving the furniture because she’s pissed about his drinking just sounded more plausible than the NSA doing it. And funnier.

As for Serpo, which to my ear should be Serp-O a product you might use to deal with a snake problem, Roswell, Holloman and all that well, not so much. He said he has a wall full of books and is apparently thoroughly steeped in the subject matter so he has quite a knowledge base to draw from; he’s many things but stupid isn’t one of them. Again, something about his tone and the immediacy of his answers – a bit of hesitation – says he’s spinning tales. I’m pretty sure that if someone showed me a picture of what I thought was a real alien it would make quite an impression on me and I would be able to describe it in considerable detail right away. I would also think that based on his own numbers of 112 agents worldwide plus support staff during his period of service that someone, somewhere would have blurted out a detail or two.That's an old argument though.

Portraying himself as the Forrest Gump of UFO investigations works to his advantage. He has been paid for X-Files story lines, is a consultant for an upcoming movie etc. Means, motive, opportunity and he is telling us pretty much what we want to hear. Why would he agree to interviews in which he just says “nope – it was all Cold War disinformation and bullshit”? Ask John Alexander that one.

I will admit that in an unrelated setting I appointed myself Psychological Warfare Officer and slipped a few plausible sounding and partially correct rumors into a large machine just for the Joy of Chaos. He’s probably enjoying the hububbery as much as we are. Maybe he’s even reading this forum. People who do that thrive on the reaction.

But they are good tales and I am eager to hear whatever he has to say. Very entertaining. Curious to see what the movie is.

Him saying parts of Serpo were true made me laugh, and reminded me of the alien autopsy hoax. When they found the hoaxers, the line became "well, we had a few frames in there that were real, we just faked the extended stuff so people would look at it!"

Ya, sure.

This stuff is classic disinformation. There's always supposed to be a nugget of truth somewhere, it's just that nugget changes over time, and is never actually definable, provable, or verifiable. Because it's not about the nugget being true, it's about the nugget being perceived as plausible.

Pure information control.

 

[Michael Allen]

Regarding the close binary claim...bogus

"The two stars are located at similar distances from the Sun and share the same motion through space,[14] confirming that they are gravitationally bound and form a wide binary star system. They have an angular separation of 309.2 arc seconds (5.2 arc minutes);[15] far enough apart to appear as a close pair of separate stars to the naked eye under suitable viewing conditions. The distance between the two stars is at least 3,750 AU, so their orbital period is 170,000 years or more.[16]" - Wikipedia

309.2 arc seconds separation at 39 ly is huge...definitly NOT a close binary...

If 3rd star exists astrophysicists would have already gathered such data and wrote a bunch of papers on that
....so much for that

Regarding the "violation of Kepler's law"...utter pseudo science...and why reference Kepler and not Newton?

Regarding the possibility of time dilation and other oddities...or a change in the fundamental constants...balderdash.



Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[withoutlimits09]

Was I the only one who found him to be rather inarticulate? He didn't come across as very intelligent, or well spoken. I don't imagine him being the brains behind too many operations. Just a do'er, nothing more.

 

[Constance]

If she had it together and then lost it, or never had it together to begin with, the result is the same.

Actually, it's not. Unless you think that only you are qualified to evaluate all of her work {have you read all of it?} and then dismiss it. What would inspire such a self-aggrandizing notion?

 

[marduk]

Actually, it's not. Unless you think that only you are qualified to evaluate all of her work {have you read all of it?} and then dismiss it. What would inspire such a self-aggrandizing notion?

Have you actually spoken to her?

I have.

It didn’t go well.

 

[marduk]

Was I the only one who found him to be rather inarticulate? He didn't come across as very intelligent, or well spoken. I don't imagine him being the brains behind too many operations. Just a do'er, nothing more.

I think that was very purposeful.

If you speak in generalities and in an ad-hoc way, it’s very hard to pin you down.

 

[Randall]

I have to agree with Existential as I believe you guys were a little predisposed to challenge Richard's current theoretical physics extrapolations - with Star Trek / Stargate science no less. It was all good though, as both shows were entertaining.

It seems you meant to refer to Robert Schroeder rather than Richard? Proceeding on that assumption, the mention of Star Trek and transwarp conduits wasn't meant to challenge Schroeder. It was meant to help explain the idea to listeners who have a more difficult time with the sorts of concepts he was talking about. Not everybody gets the idea that there might be a type of space between space ( the bulk ), but lot's of people have seen Star Trek and have heard of subspace. Maybe before assuming the worst about a situation, perhaps you might try asking yourself if there is a more positive way to look at it.

 

[Randall]

If she had it together and then lost it, or never had it together to begin with, the result is the same. The fact that he tries to make her out to be credible is classic distraction - because her stories are pure pulp science fiction too.

I seem to recall @Christopher O'Brien referring to her on one episode as "Linda Moldy Cow". I laughed so hard I thought I was going to cough up a lung .

 

[pigfarmer]

Him saying parts of Serpo were true made me laugh, and reminded me of the alien autopsy hoax. When they found the hoaxers, the line became "well, we had a few frames in there that were real, we just faked the extended stuff so people would look at it!"

Ya, sure.

This stuff is classic disinformation. There's always supposed to be a nugget of truth somewhere, it's just that nugget changes over time, and is never actually definable, provable, or verifiable. Because it's not about the nugget being true, it's about the nugget being perceived as plausible.

Pure information control.

True enough but he didn't invent it. Fishing through piles of crap to find the piece of corn that could be real is de rigueur for too many which is why he can use it effectively. People have their ear to the rail thinking he'll blurt out The Secret or a detail that can be referenced in a fifty year old file to support some theory.

Personally, I know for a fact that key to the Truth about Flying Saucers is kept in the basement of the Alamo and nothing he says will dissuade me.

 

[Constance]

@withoutlimits09 said: ↑
Was I the only one who found him to be rather inarticulate? He didn't come across as very intelligent, or well spoken. I don't imagine him being the brains behind too many operations. Just a do'er, nothing more.

I think that was very purposeful.

If you speak in generalities and in an ad-hoc way, it’s very hard to pin you down.

I didn't hear him as primarily speaking in generalities; he provided us, ad hoc, with a great deal of specific information about his experiences in his own work and about what he and his colleagues were told about earlier events. I have to listen to the whole interview again since I was distracted from it several times while listening the first time and missed many things Doty said.

Among what I did hear attentively, I was impressed by what I sensed as his authentically speaking out now [within what he is permitted to disclose, as in the book he described as having only 11 pages of his manuscript unaltered by his military editors/censors]. I think that in this Paracast interview he is openly and frankly speaking about many of his own experiences 'at the front' as an inside investigator of some ufo events he responded to, and also about follow-up presentations he read and/or heard in group presentations of other ufo events that have taken place and what was learned, or at least increasingly understood from them, presented by the theorists and historians within the intelligence agencies.

The extent of that which he is presently permitted to speak about, without negative consequences, is another indication of the process of gradual disclosure now evidently under way.

 

[marduk]

@withoutlimits09 said: ↑
Was I the only one who found him to be rather inarticulate? He didn't come across as very intelligent, or well spoken. I don't imagine him being the brains behind too many operations. Just a do'er, nothing more.



I didn't hear him as primarily speaking in generalities; he provided us, ad hoc, with a great deal of specific information about his experiences in his own work and about what he and his colleagues were told about earlier events. I have to listen to the whole interview again since I was distracted from it several times while listening the first time and missed many things Doty said.

Among what I did hear attentively, I was impressed by what I sensed as his authentically speaking out now [within what he is permitted to disclose, as in the book he described as having only 11 pages of his manuscript unaltered by his military editors/censors]. I think that in this Paracast interview he is openly and frankly speaking about many of his own experiences 'at the front' as an inside investigator of some ufo events he responded to, and also about follow-up presentations he read and/or heard in group presentations of other ufo events that have taken place and what was learned, or at least increasingly understood from them, presented by the theorists and historians within the intelligence agencies.

The extent of that which he is presently permitted to speak about, without negative consequences, is another indication of the process of gradual disclosure now evidently under way.

So you don’t think he’s trying to do to us what he did to Bennewitz?

Take a group of people that kind of believe in some stuff considered out there and just extend that even further - by playing into exactly the narrative people want to hear?

He did that to distract Bennewitz from realizing the signal in the noise.

I think he’s still doing that. I think anything he wants us to think is credible should be viewed extremely suspiciously - because it's more than likely the exact opposite, in my opinion.

 

[Constance]

So you don’t think he’s trying to do to us what he did to Bennewitz?

re 'what he did to Bennewitz', what were the sources you read about that affair (and how well-informed and reliable were they)? I didn't research that matter myself but I certainly read a great many hysterical online posts by people claiming that Doty himself intentionally drove Bennewitz to a psychological break-down. Anyone who makes a claim/accusation of that kind should provide detailed evidence to back it up. I'll read it if you link or cite it.

I think he’s still doing that. I think anything he wants us to think is credible should be viewed extremely suspiciously - because it's more than likely the exact opposite, in my opinion.

Well, you're a rather suspicious chap to begin with, Marduk. So are you afraid to believe anything Doty says because it might make you crazy?

 

[Ian]

I know it was only a small part of this show, but can anyone point me to any technical detail of the signals Bennewitz is supposed to have detected? If he was competent to use (and build?) such equipment why did he conclude it was alien? Is there any evidence it came from the base? What frequency* was it on? What mode and bandwidth did it use? What was its field strength? What type of antenna did he design and what were its dimensions?

These may sound like geeky questions, but without clear answers he could have been picking up interference from a dodgy fridge, leaks from data-carrying cables, a military ionosonde, or even legitimate, conventional military high speed communications.

If one has access to the right receiving equipment all sorts of unusual man-made signals can be detected (although not necessarily audible!) throughout the radio spectrum, and I don't see why anyone with Bennewitz's intelligence would need to jump to the "alien" conclusion - unless he's bonkers or worse, which does seem likely.

* The quote of "low frequency" used in this case is a very specific frequency range - 30 to 300 kHz. LF signals are not suitable for detecting satellites, and are much more likely to be long-distance military communications from a very conspicuous location given the necessary antenna dimensions.

 

[marduk]

re 'what he did to Bennewitz', what were the sources you read about that affair (and how well-informed and reliable were they)? I didn't research that matter myself but I certainly read a great many hysterical online posts by people claiming that Doty himself intentionally drove Bennewitz to a psychological break-down. Anyone who makes a claim/accusation of that kind should provide detailed evidence to back it up. I'll read it if you link or cite it.



Well, you're a rather suspicious chap to begin with, Marduk. So are you afraid to believe anything Doty says because it might make you crazy?

He admitted he led Bennewitz along in the show.

Not sure what else needs to be said about it.

 

[pigfarmer]

I know it was only a small part of this show, but can anyone point me to any technical detail of the signals Bennewitz is supposed to have detected? If he was competent to use (and build?) such equipment why did he conclude it was alien? Is there any evidence it came from the base? What frequency* was it on? What mode and bandwidth did it use? What was its field strength? What type of antenna did he design and what were its dimensions?

These may sound like geeky questions, but without clear answers he could have been picking up interference from a dodgy fridge, leaks from data-carrying cables, a military ionosonde, or even legitimate, conventional military high speed communications.

If one has access to the right receiving equipment all sorts of unusual man-made signals can be detected (although not necessarily audible!) throughout the radio spectrum, and I don't see why anyone with Bennewitz's intelligence would need to jump to the "alien" conclusion - unless he's bonkers or worse, which does seem likely.

* The quote of "low frequency" used in this case is a very specific frequency range - 30 to 300 kHz. LF signals are not suitable for detecting satellites, and are much more likely to be long-distance military communications from a very conspicuous location given the necessary antenna dimensions.

ELF as been used for years to communicate with submarines. Deep secret – secure submarine communication on a quantum level - Naval Technology
Submarines which are essentially told to 'get lost' when they leave port to a certain degree. In the '70s and '80s missile subs were the most potent leg of the 'nuclear triad.' For communications purposes I believe at one point they used to have to trail a wire that could be miles long. Doty's description of the scheme to instantly flash blind a satellite and then bounce an encoded signal off of it, especially a Soviet satellite, appealed to the Tom Clancy geekery in me. Cool. That is one of the things Doty said that I found to be believable. I also remember Greg Bishop's book mentioning that in that same area there were remnants of high energy laser systems - tunnels of some sort. Been a while since I read that but sounds like it would fit.

On a slightly different note in 1999 the Serbs detected and shot down an F117, one of the most advanced planes in the world at the time, by fiddling with their primitive radars:
That Day The Serbs Did The Impossible And Shot Down An F-117 Nighthawk

Not ELF but yes, there are examples in which highly sophisticated technology can be defeated with relative simplicity. Like some kid who is a superb hacker a pity they couldn't recruit him to assist with the program. This is another part that made me think that Doty might have been truthful about Bennewitz; maybe the guy was brilliant but unstable and a poor candidate to be personally 'read into' such a sensitive program. If he was a 'drinker' and maybe slightly nuts better to co-opt his equipment and methods. It certainly explains why the NSA was so interested.

 

[pigfarmer]

@withoutlimits09 said: ↑
Was I the only one who found him to be rather inarticulate? He didn't come across as very intelligent, or well spoken. I don't imagine him being the brains behind too many operations. Just a do'er, nothing more.



I didn't hear him as primarily speaking in generalities; he provided us, ad hoc, with a great deal of specific information about his experiences in his own work and about what he and his colleagues were told about earlier events. I have to listen to the whole interview again since I was distracted from it several times while listening the first time and missed many things Doty said.

Among what I did hear attentively, I was impressed by what I sensed as his authentically speaking out now [within what he is permitted to disclose, as in the book he described as having only 11 pages of his manuscript unaltered by his military editors/censors]. I think that in this Paracast interview he is openly and frankly speaking about many of his own experiences 'at the front' as an inside investigator of some ufo events he responded to, and also about follow-up presentations he read and/or heard in group presentations of other ufo events that have taken place and what was learned, or at least increasingly understood from them, presented by the theorists and historians within the intelligence agencies.

The extent of that which he is presently permitted to speak about, without negative consequences, is another indication of the process of gradual disclosure now evidently under way.

I agree to a point. I think he is saying some things which are true, at least from his perspective. I just thought I heard some BS in there too - a product of many years of having to deal with the unwashed masses of humanity I suppose. Difficult to explain why except as I said earlier, maybe a slight hesitation while the gears were turning in his head trying to produce an answer. Doty is like a tag sale filled with interesting looking stuff. The real trick is to find the valuable stuff mixed in with the junk. I love tag sales.