Matthew Williams, Circlemaker

[mike]

All I'm saying Mike is that one doesn't need to jump to conclusions about someone's motivations to figure out "what" made them, all you have to do is look at the crop circle or a photograph of it.
To address why someone would not come forward, there could be any number of reasons.
1. It's illegal. Aside from any legal ramifications, confessing to a crime might endanger their job, relationships, etc.
2. They might be unaware of the reward.
3. They might suspect that the reward is not genuine.
I could go on, but you get the idea.

Many Crop Circle "reports" provide something most UFO and alien abduction reports do not, actual photographic evidence. Examining these photos for known signs of circle construction is the way to answer the questions about their origin.

I get all that, all valid points imo, but none of them directly support the claim all CCC's are man made
I'm not trying to prove who did or didnt make them, simply that the absolute claim men made them all has no basis in factual evidence.

Indeed some of the human CCC makers make the same point

As Rod himself said, even if he's telling the truth (and I think he is), this doesn't prove that all crop formations are human made

¤ c i r c l e m a k e r s ¤

 

[trainedobserver]

Out of interest, as they say in the UK, would you identify the signs that you believe unambiguously point to manmade construction of the Julia Set?

Comb pattern in the circles. It has the foot line Matthew talks about down the spine as well. Here is a discussion about it.

 

[trainedobserver]

I get all that, all valid points imo, but none of them directly support the claim all CCC's are man made

They aren't meant to Mike. The only thing required is the evidence in the crop circle itself.

 

[mike]

They aren't meant to Mike. The only thing required is the evidence in the crop circle itself.

ALL of them, and you cant do that

As you say

It is impossible to answer the question, "Are all complex crop-circles man-made?" Therefore it is pointless to ask it

So too its pointless to make the claim ALL CCC's are man made, finally we agree

It is as you say "impossible" to prove all CCC's are man made

 

[mike]

Perhaps the error is mine, You didnt say "some" CCC's are made by people, so i assumed the straightforward fact you presented is ALL CCC's are made by people

The facts seem pretty straight forward. Complex Crop Circles are made by people. .

Are Complex Crop Circles are made by people (yes we can prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt)
Are Some Complex Crop Circles are made by people (as above yes we can prove this)
Are ALL Complex Crop Circles are made by people

It is impossible to answer the question, "Are all complex crop-circles man-made?" Therefore it is pointless to ask it

And its also impossible to prove, thus its pointless to make the claim.

 

[Constance]

Comb pattern in the circles. It has the foot line Matthew talks about down the spine as well. Here is a discussion about it.

So, the combing pattern and a construction line. I'll look for some good close-ups and scrutinize them.

 

[trainedobserver]

Perhaps the error is mine, You didnt say "some" CCC's are made by people, so i assumed the straightforward fact you presented is ALL CCC's are made by people



Are Complex Crop Circles are made by people (yes we can prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt)
Are Some Complex Crop Circles are made by people (as above yes we can prove this)
Are ALL Complex Crop Circles are made by people




And its also impossible to prove, thus its pointless to make the claim.

Mike you can wrap yourself up in semantics all you like. I have yet to see a complex crop circle that doesn't fit the criteria for a man-made circle.

 

[Constance]

Lest we jump to conclusions about the crop circle phenomenon based on the demonstrated ability of humans to make some impressive crop circles, I recommend that we read and discuss the range of information and critical concerns presented in this essay: "Circular Reasoning: Assessing the Mystery of Crop Circles" by R.J. Vigoda.

http://theconversation.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Crop-Circles-Legitimacy.pdf

 

[Constance]

Mike you can wrap yourself up in semantics all you like. I have yet to see a complex crop circle that doesn't fit the criteria for a man-made circle.

How many have you seen?

 

[Jimi H.]

For starters you are stating opinion as fact, how do you know whats possible in regards to AI, how would you know what such an entity might think or want ?.

Computers don't think, they calculate.

..
It may be that SI is the natural end point in the evolution of intelligence in any model that holds it.
Biological intellects like us, may indeed just be a fleeting (and minority) phase of the whole process

I think this is sci-fi/fantasy. There'll be super-advanced AI, yes, but it will still just run algorithms. And a network is not a live being.

What bugs me about post-humanism, in general, is the depressing (imo) escapism of wanting to become 'post'-human. It appears to me that the lure, what makes post-humanists starry eyed, is to live forever.

About Plato, personally, I want to read Plato and get the experience of reading him. Reading is a process of understanding, a dialectic. It is not simply a matter of storing information, it's not an 'upload', humans are not computers and don't read a philosopher like a computer (or network) does.
You could create a database of The Republic etc. where you could ask questions which could be answered by the machine in a person-like manner, like Google answers a question. But you shan't be conversing with Plato.
Frankly, I find this extreme objectification of the human being a little bit disturbing.

 

[manxman]

A very strange owl by the description of the farmer who had a closeup encounter with it.

Spoken to the farmer have you, let me guess, NO

You have done nothing more than watch a vid, where even the townie behind the camera says it is a bird, until he plays it back and realise's he has a ewetube hit, throw in a wooey bit about a tractor stopping as the owl flies by and wham bam thank you mam, a ewetube blockbuster.

 

[manxman]

They aren't meant to Mike. The only thing required is the evidence in the crop circle itself.

yourself and mike have gotten into a 2 step dance, it is not up to you to 'prove' all circles are man made, let mike present the circles he and others believe are not made with planks, by planks, for planks.

 

[manxman]

How many have you seen?

constance, the real question is 'how many circles have YOU seen' that are not man-made, complex or not.

 

[Jimi H.]

..-- I think it would be be beneficial if you would try to open yourself up to the way all this has affected the researchers too.

Constance, this is exactly what he's doing. Try reading the post you just replied to, for Pete's sake! He explicitly explains that he's fascinated by, and happy for people who think the circles help them in one way or another.

..- The hostility that developed in Wiltshire between human circlemakers and researchers over the last 35 years has been as painful for them as it has been for you.

Then maybe they should have been more honest and tried to deal with the evidence that it's man-made.

A very strange owl by the description of the farmer who had a closeup encounter with it.

Ok, where is the name and the quote from the farmer?

Another thing: It's a bird. Take it from someone who grew up in very similar farmland country, and have seen A LOT of birds while crossing fields on the way to go fishing, or horseback riding: It's a bird. Trust me.

Oh, and birds do 'hover' in the wind, as Matthew explained, get out in the country more, or refrain from judging bird behaviour, if this is news. Especially birds of prey will hang in the same spot for long stretches of time while spotting for rodents.

My impression is that he wants to represent you as the last word on all things crop circle, and that he wants to think you have the last word on it all because what you argue corresponds with what he prefers, as an apparently thorough-going skeptic, to think about crop circles.

Even in the face of videos etc., the believer will persist.
Even when it is shown that exploded nodes etc are completely natural, the believer will persist.

It's a cult, it's so very obviously a cult.

 

[manxman]

Oh, and if people think birds don't 'hover' in the wind, as Matthew explained, seriously, get out more, or refrain from judging bird behaviour. Especially birds of prey will hang in the same spot for long stretches of time while spotting for rodents.

Bollock's as mathew explained.

I gave a mini thesis on it.

crop type by date and elimination, spring wheat, the yellow field next to it, winter barley stubble,
time of day, direction camera and wind, position of sun, even the type of bird of prey [ barn owl] just the way it hunted the small windblown or washed-out small areas of crop, around it goes one to the other, hovers 2/3 feet above the blown down wheat, listens, moves on or makes attempts at half chances, it/they had a nest of large squabs on the 29/7, you can be sure of that, because the 'pair' were working together, until disturbed by the 2 blokes unseen to the camera until the end, its a no-brainer, especially to ex farming stock as myself.

 

[Jimi H.]

..
If someone offered you 20,000 for you to reproduce one of your works, and or provide documentation of its creation would you do it ?

Mike, are you still seriously doubting that humans can make crop circles? We put a man on the moon but you don't think that people can create crop circles?

Do you think aliens did this?

 

[manxman]

'take us to your lead...................ing pizza house, the one on mars is snowed in '

It snows on Mars. In 2008, NASA’s Phoenix Lander found water ice in the polar regions of the planet. This was an expected finding, but scientists were not prepared to observe snow falling from clouds.

Read more: How Long is a Day on Mars?

 

[Jimi H.]

...Shortly thereafter he was confronted by a self-identified CIA agent who came to his home one evening and told him (not requested) that he was now going to be working for that agency and propagating the view that crop circles were all manmade. Not long after that he left the UK, taking his wife and daughter with him to live in the US. ..

He tried to escape the CIA by moving to the US? That's kinda ironic, isn't it?

 

[manxman]

Time to end the doubt about the owl 'orbs'.

i already told you the vid was being shot between 7pm and 9pm, the sun was lowish and behind, this is the clincher for why it was a pair of barn owls in particular, cos they is reflective to each other for good reason as part of this owl study states, the camera has over emphasized the brightness/reflected light, again highly noticable by the camera not being able to see it when it rose up to eye level and was side on, or from behind as it flew away disturbed by the 2 blokes, but the girl was still yabbering on about seeing it with the naked eye .

The application of modern spectrometry to the study of avian colour variability has revealed ignored patterns of colour variation such as male-biased sexual dichromatism and seasonal variability in the plumage. However, the variation in the achromatic property of such traits, that is in the total light reflectance of the spectrum (i.e., brightness), has commonly been overlooked. The evolution of signals based on brightness should be favoured in those species that are active when light is scarce, i.e. at dawn and dusk.


ps
first time i flashed a lamp on a pair of foxes eyes in a gateway, i shit it, they look evil, see for 20 years previous, it had never happened, and foxes on this island were nothing more than a rumour, folklore, the occasional sighting, i knew i would see one eventually, as i knew by their footprints, that a pair lived in that valley.

what i mean to get over, is if i could not of seen the shape of the owner of the eyes, as i quickly swung the light across the gateway, that would of been some weird shit right there, that i would still be talking about now, because i was only 20 yards away.

 

[Jimi H.]

.. However, these thoughts are not somehing I've ever interpreted as part of the agenda of ccmakers, nor evident in the designs. Maybe I'm missing something.

Yea, I'd like to hear more about this too.

So in the interview part II (hint, hint), I'd like to hear about:
1) The politics of land use and ownership, and what part crop-circle making has in that discussion
2) In other words, more about the Why?
3) The paranormal aspects of man-made crop circles, namely the flying orbs etc.