May 31, 2009

[inuk2600]

rcfish, please, the adults are trying to have a discussion.

 

[Schuyler]

Also I have to say that it really was depressing to hear you not able to answer yes or no to a question, that was childish. It really drove a nail in my paracast coffin.

Funny, that was depressing to me, too, but for a rather different reason. The guy was being manipulative with his line of questioning trying to draw our hosts into a childish trap, trying to lead the conversation in the way he wished it to go. That's what the nail in his coffin for me. He wanted to be Mister In Charge of the conversation. He wanted to be the interviewer, not the interviewee. He was like a kid on a game show who cheats by keeping the button pressed all the time. As long as he could keep doing that, he could avoid answering questions, questions like: Explain exactly how the nephilim mating with earth girls caused the flood, please.

 

[David Biedny]

David,

I never said I knew you, only that I have listened to your bias comments on creation and anything else to do with the bible. I am not saying that I buy what the guy is saying, only that before you smash everything (because he believes in god) give it a chance thats all. And as far as the Bible being a joke what proof do you have? Also I have to say that it really was depressing to hear you not able to answer yes or no to a question, that was childish. It really drove a nail in my paracast coffin.

I came here for answers to this whole phenomenon and I end up getting blasted to hell. This show (from what I heard) was a place to stretch out and talk, guess not. Hope you find the meaning to life my friend.

So wait, you're someone who believes in the Creationist myth? Well, there you go, this show is definitely not for you, we deal in understanding, not fairy tales, so you were setting yourself up for disappointment from the get-go. The meaning of life? It's anyone's guess, but to bow down to a faceless, cruel bastard who deals in coercion, vengeance and fear, nah, I'll pass on that particular belief system. And like I said, I'm willing to admit I might be wrong, but as I guessed, you're seemingly incapable of that level of intellectual honesty and integrity.

Sorry we've let you down, see ya around, be well, and say HI! to the radical Jewish carpenter for me some time, I hear he can't play the piano worth a damn.

dB

 

[AnnetteMarie]

Why can't we base morality on what people have based it on for thousands of years? On how our actions affect other human beings. Actions that promote the welfare of the group are good, and actions that are anti-social or harmful are not. That's pretty basic, but you get the idea. Humans have been basing their social rules on those simple ideas since the dawn of man. At least until religion came along...
...
QUOTE]

Keeping that in mind...

if you use the welfare of the group as your base in determining what is GOOD as opposed to what is NOT GOOD -

Inuit commonly abandoned babies born with health/physical problems because it benefitted the group as a whole - their elderly often went out to sleep in the snow when they became a burden to their group; many were eaten by polar bears, I hope they were dead, first.

Many groups of First Nation tribes sacrificed in similar ways for the good of the tribe. Women in one tribe who committed adultery usually had their noses chopped off. It was common to raid other tribes and capture some of their people, especially when you needed slaves. Good of the tribe demanded that.

It is theorized that ancient clan-dwelling man would have done similar, ie, a hunter gets a broken leg that does not heal, and well, sayonara, for the good of the group, of course.

Things can get silly when the good of the one outweighs the good of the many, but when you are that one with the broken leg and the many are passing you by?

In many of the religions that are bashed,their followers are exhorted to consider the good of the one as important, too. ie, the prodigal son, the shepherd leaving his flock to track down one sheep, and so on.

When you forget about the good of the one, in order to feed the good of the many, the many often become plain and simple thieves and/or bullies. We can do it because there are more of us than of you.

Let's all jump on the 'can't we do it the old way' bandwagon and see just how much further we could/would be without any of the higher ideals of our oldest religions?

please do not include the exhortations to go forth and smite mine enemies, for I am all-powerful and cannot be bothered to do it myself..

stick to the HIGHER IDEALS. There is a lot to be said for them. Like 'thou shalt not kill', thou shalt not steal, thou shalt honour thy father and thy mother...

 

[Ally]

Oh David it is great that you are back on these forums.

 

[David Biedny]

Thanks, Ally, I think it's good to be back, but I'm not quite sure yet.

dB

 

[redclingfish]

First of all thank you Schuyler for not attacking my whole belief system. All I can say is at least I have a beautiful family a plane to fly and something to believe in. I am only sorry that you can't share the peaceful feeling you get when you look into your child's eyes and see a creator not a ape or something that an alien created. I completely understand you offensive nature though, you are just a animal and it is survival of the fittest.

 

[rwahrens]

David,

...I am not saying that I buy what the guy is saying, only that before you smash everything (because he believes in god) give it a chance thats all. And as far as the Bible being a joke what proof do you have? ...

Speaking for me, I'll give anybody a chance that shows a modicum of real evidence. For the reasons I gave in previous posts, plus numerous additional reasons that would fill a book (literally!), if that one cites the bible for evidence of anything serious beyond what exists within the covers of that book, he's lost his chance.

All I or anybody else needs for proof as to why the bible is a joke, my first and sole evidence is - the bible!

As I noted, it is NOT a book - it is a compendium of documents. Most of which are copies of copies of copies of copies - to what degree we don't know and never will. What you read today bears little resemblance to what was written - and that has been shown to be true merely to the degree that we CAN reconstruct the originals - in some cases to within two or three generations of copies.

As for the content, even after 1700 years of editing, it is full of contradictions, stories that are copies of earlier stories from older religions, and laws that support and enforce behavior that would get you jailed today for lengthy periods of time. The only way someone can get a halfway decent semblance of a religion out of it that any modern American would consider if he/she weren't indoctrinated from birth into is to cherry pick away probably 80% of it.

Oh, wait, Jefferson already did that for us - it's called the Jefferson Bible!

Even after all that, one has to be aware that Christianity has NOTHING new in it. EVERY element, from the virgin birth, to the Last Supper, to the Resurrection, is taken lock, stock & barrel from any number of prior or extant religions already known to the Jewish authorities at the beginning of the first century.

It is, in short, a constructed religion, taken by Constantine and modified to his purposes, which was for the purpose of controlling the population of his newly acquired empire. He formalized it, made it official, forced every existing christian sect then extant to either become part of it, or be eliminated as heretical. By then, it more than likely little resembled anything its Jewish adherents of the first century would have recognized.

If THAT isn't a joke, I've never seen one!

 

[David Biedny]

First of all thank you Schuyler for not attacking my whole belief system. All I can say is at least I have a beautiful family a plane to fly and something to believe in. I am only sorry that you can't share the peaceful feeling you get when you look into your child's eyes and see a creator not a ape or something that an alien created. I completely understand you offensive nature though, you are just a animal and it is survival of the fittest.

So are you saying that we're not animals? Are you calling Schuyler an animal, but putting yourself above that? Do you think you're anything besides a mammal? Do you think that humans are the pinnacle of all beings in the Universe? Seriously, I'm curious. Meanwhile, are you willing to admit that it's possible that humans are the result of experimentation from an external source, not a god, but a more advanced species than ours? Because if you're not willing to explore the possibilities, then you have no right to tell me that I'm close-minded.

Cute kid, BTW.

dB

 

[tyder001]

Well in my fiftytwo years on the earth I can tell ya that I don't know the "meaning" of life. Haven't learned it here around you guys either. As for the "fucking spelling" No Mr. Science I can't spill worth a fuc But serioulsy I do have my own experience and my own stories of religious excessess. I still find "value" in my faith but I don't look at the bible as a seamless "word" Matter of fact I have read the bible at times and thought "Wow" I'm gonna keep that cause it really touches me. I've also read things in it and thought "Wow" What a bunch of malarky. I am one of "those" people who think for themselves and don't think that we simply "happened" I think simply by being and bringing our "thoughts" to bear that we are manifesting the creative force "God" that is the "reason" for us being here. Of course I could be wrong. 8)

 

[inuk2600]

I completely understand you offensive nature though, you are just a animal and it is survival of the fittest.

No silly, everyone knows it's Satan's hold on our lives.

I'm just wondering if you would have tried to pull the same argument if your kid looked like this...

 

[tyder001]

Since we are strechting out and talking let me tell ya bout a dream I had...Stop me if you've already heard it cause I may have posted it somewhere else on these forums. ...No? Good then I'll start:

I'm walking and all of a sudden I'm "aware" that I'm dreaming. I know that my body is back "there" The landscape is red and there is someone walking beside me. I know that this "being" can tell me the answer to the meaning of life. So, I ask but the question I ask is "What is the dream?" He says "You ask to much." I felt a tear slide down my cheek and when I woke up there was an actual tear on my cheek. I'm still asking.

 

[inuk2600]

stick to the HIGHER IDEALS. There is a lot to be said for them. Like 'thou shalt not kill', thou shalt not steal, thou shalt honour thy father and thy mother...

My simple argument is, to me it seems possible that people came up with these rules (or ideals). Am I completely out to lunch here?

 

[redclingfish]

Sorry I meant to call David the animal... no I do not believe you are an animal David just a confused human being created by a God thats all, and I am certainly not above you or anyone else. I think that it is possible that fallen angels had something to do with manipulation and created a race that died out (people like goliath or achilles). But that is speculation with no proof. But I just can't make myself believe that a bunch of skimpy midget big eyed grays came and manipulated us in any way. Again there is zero proof for this, only people who claim anal probing. I would believe all this in a heartbeat if someone would show concrete proof, but as you know whenever the gray bastards come around everyone seems to misplace there cameras and phones as well, what a shame. I think this whole subject is fun and interesting, but a complete mess. No one can show any good evidence at all! Everything I see is crap, except the pictures of government projects which are not alien. It just seems like this is all a clever way to escape god thats all.

Thanks she is a doll

 

[rwahrens]

Why can't we base morality on what people have based it on for thousands of years? On how our actions affect other human beings. Actions that promote the welfare of the group are good, and actions that are anti-social or harmful are not. That's pretty basic, but you get the idea. Humans have been basing their social rules on those simple ideas since the dawn of man. At least until religion came along...
...
QUOTE]

Keeping that in mind...

if you use the welfare of the group as your base in determining what is GOOD as opposed to what is NOT GOOD -

Inuit commonly abandoned babies born with health/physical problems because it benefitted the group as a whole - their elderly often went out to sleep in the snow when they became a burden to their group; many were eaten by polar bears, I hope they were dead, first.

Many groups of First Nation tribes sacrificed in similar ways for the good of the tribe. Women in one tribe who committed adultery usually had their noses chopped off. It was common to raid other tribes and capture some of their people, especially when you needed slaves. Good of the tribe demanded that.

It is theorized that ancient clan-dwelling man would have done similar, ie, a hunter gets a broken leg that does not heal, and well, sayonara, for the good of the group, of course.

Things can get silly when the good of the one outweighs the good of the many, but when you are that one with the broken leg and the many are passing you by?

In many of the religions that are bashed,their followers are exhorted to consider the good of the one as important, too. ie, the prodigal son, the shepherd leaving his flock to track down one sheep, and so on.

When you forget about the good of the one, in order to feed the good of the many, the many often become plain and simple thieves and/or bullies. We can do it because there are more of us than of you.

Let's all jump on the 'can't we do it the old way' bandwagon and see just how much further we could/would be without any of the higher ideals of our oldest religions?

please do not include the exhortations to go forth and smite mine enemies, for I am all-powerful and cannot be bothered to do it myself..

stick to the HIGHER IDEALS. There is a lot to be said for them. Like 'thou shalt not kill', thou shalt not steal, thou shalt honour thy father and thy mother...

Very impressive list of ancient values that bear little resemblance to modern life.

You totally ignore the fact that each individual society takes the environment they live in and examines it for how it will affect their social life and the good of the group. Our own society is a perfect example, as we wrestle with abortion and the death penalty and whether we want to outlaw them or not.

Obviously, the natural forces that made Inuits abandon babies no longer applies, nor does the value that ignores the suffering of the individual when mutilation is used as a punishment. Those are solutions to problems that have been either abandoned as unneeded or superseded by less cruel methods.

This fact perfectly illustrates my point - that societies are constantly reevaluating their moralities in light of ever changing conditions as they evolve into a more mature society or come into contact with new social groups that challenge former assumptions.

So where the heck do you think those "higher ideals" came from? Did they just drop out of the sky?

No. They were constructed from human experience that showed they were useful tools in keeping past societies together.

Humans have been poor adherents to rules they haven't been privy to making, so just why do you think a creator that made us wouldn't know that his rules would fail to keep our behavior on the straight and narrow? Why would he make rules for us to follow that he would have to threaten us with eternal damnation to make us follow?

Occum's Razor says that that scenario is too complex to be true. It is much more logical and simpler in the long run that humans simply evolved our own rules. Each society has its own version that fits their own circumstances.

Did you know that in traveling to Arabic countries, while sitting as a guest, it is considered bad form and an insult to point the sole of the foot at someone? Traditional Arab society considers it the height of good manners to belch at the end of a meal to show appreciation. Either of these are strange and unknown to Western countries. But again, they illustrate perfectly the point that rules are different all over and are not subject to religious edicts. Neither of those rules are Islamic rules - they are endemic to Arab society.

Social rules are the oil that lubricates the friction of human civilization. Without them, anything bigger than family groups are impossible. Fortunately, humans are intelligent creatures, and have used that intelligence to evolve the rules we live by to keep them current with the conditions we live under.

Religions tend to cement those rules into rigid templates that ignore new conditions. Take either stoning or female circumcision for example. Tribla elders in countries such as Etheopia will swear before Allah that those things are required by Islamic law.

Stoning is, but female circumcision is not, it is merely a tribal custom extant in Africa, and is unknown in Arabic countries as well as Asian Islamic countries.

As for those "higher ideals", since stoning adulterers is in the bible and required as a punishment by BOTH the bible and the Koran, do you believe that is one we should continue to follow?

How about slavery? The bible says I can sell my daughters into sexual slavery. It even sets forth rules for how they are to be treated! It also says I can keep slaves, and can beat them, and it is only forbidden if they die within three days. I suppose if they linger after that, it's ok.

I mean, that's the word of god! HIS rules.

You can't have it both ways.

 

[David Biedny]

fishy,

Here are some of your own. Enjoy. Even though I'm not an Atheist (put that in your holy water and stick it in your eye), I'd rather hang with some pagans any day of the week.


I have no use for fundamentalism of any shade. I've evolved beyond needing a paternal deity to ask for forgiveness, I can take responsibility for my own actions. But do whatever you like, believe whatever you want, it's not like it means anything in my life. I don't have children, so I'm not passing this nightmare onto any offspring. Your child will be paying for your decisions, I hope they - and their generation - find it in their hearts to forgive you one day.

Sayonara.

dB

 

[redclingfish]

Thank you for throwing me into that group David, i thought you knew who I was, I am the one with the holy water lol. Seriously I have nothing and want nothing to do with that mess. I would much rather hang with pagans to, at least they are not putting on a mask. If you want a laugh go look for people being slain in the spirit. You have no idea how much i agree with you when it comes to those freaks. So we finally agree on something after all.

 

[David Biedny]

Thank you for throwing me into that group David, i thought you knew who I was, I am the one with the holy water lol. Seriously I have nothing and want nothing to do with that mess. I would much rather hang with pagans to, at least they are not putting on a mask. If you want a laugh go look for people being slain in the spirit. You have no idea how much i agree with you when it comes to those freaks. So we finally agree on something after all.

You're just another anonymous name on the internet. You've come here to express yourself, and you have an opinion and we should respect it because you're not an animal, you're the embodiment of some type of holy spirit. Like I said, believe what you like. One day, we'll both find out if we were right or wrong, or perhaps we won't. Meanwhile, in this world, right now, by coming here and doling out the BS of religion, you're part of the problem, not part of the solution. From my side of the coin, you're very much in their world, you have everything to do with them, you've chosen belief over knowledge. You've made your bed, now sleep in it.

And with that, I wish everyone good night, my honey has just kissed me and asked me to stop engaging in this monumental waste of time. She's a smart, smart girl. And she believes in God. So do with that what you will, I could give a shit.

dB

 

[rwahrens]

...Seriously I have nothing and want nothing to do with that mess. I would much rather hang with pagans to, at least they are not putting on a mask. ...

One more thing.

This is something many Americans accuse Muslims of, but rarely link to their own lives.

If you are put off by "that mess" and object to it, and possibly even think it is harmful to your religion, have you ever done anything to stop it?

Have you urged your pastor to condemn that attitude or write letters to fundamentalist churches that preach such hatred?

Have you ever protested in front of such a church?

If not, then you are part of the problem. It is fellow christians who allow those fundamentalists to be seen to speak for their religion that are, in reality, fellow travelers with them on the road to theocracy.

You enable them to exist!

 

[rwahrens]

Family trumps everything.

Good night, David, sweet dreams!