May 31, 2009

[jpw.in.wi]

You don't need to use God as a reason to do good things.

How do I know if what I'm doing is a "good" thing? Whose definition of that word can I accept? It can't be totally up to me, or you, or the whims of each individual to decide, because then we just spiral into never-ending multilayered battles of individual wills to power. We've seen that worldview play itself out over and over again. That's no way for a planet to operate.

Religion aside, don't we necessarily need--philosophically--a First Cause, a Prime Mover, Being itself in order to have a grounding for notions such as "goodness," "truth," "justice," etc.? For example, The Constitution has meaning only insofar as it recognizes a higher truth as the very grounding and source of the self-evident truth that each human being is born with certain inalienable human rights, and those rights are intelligible enough that the Framers specifically identified them. If there really doesn't exist at least the deistic proposition of God, then the Constitution has no meaning, there are no such things as human rights, "law" evaporates, and all is permissible.

A multitude of the world's best and brightest thinkers have pondered these questions for thousands of years and produced very profound work. It really is a shame to see the same questions treated so flippantly, and to see that long line of brilliant and diverse thinkers lumped in with the likes of Marzulli, to be dismissed with such easy prejudice, contempt, and cynicism.

Anyone who wants to base their entire reality on the Bible should have fun, I could give a shit, but to try to impose it's brutal violence, wanton destructiveness and obvious man-made origins as the will and word of whatever is behind this vast Universe we live in, is a load of horseshit.

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[Xylo]

Religion aside, don't we necessarily need--philosophically--a First Cause, a Prime Mover, Being itself in order to have a grounding for notions such as "goodness," "truth," "justice," etc.? For example, The Constitution has meaning only insofar as it recognizes a higher truth as the very grounding and source of the self-evident truth that each human being is born with certain inalienable human rights, and those rights are intelligible enough that the Framers specifically identified them. If there really doesn't exist at least the deistic proposition of God, then the Constitution has no meaning, there are no such things as human rights, "law" evaporates, and all is permissible.

I don't think you need to interject religion and a "god" into the mix. Consider behavior in animals that exist in groups. In general there are a set of rules and behaviors that allow the group to exist, multiply and thrive within that particular set of rules.

You can call whatever you want, but in general, the rules are established to ensure that the group survives. I can't prove it, but I have a strong feeling that they don't have a god.

I think humans have reinforced a system of actions with a system of beliefs and those beliefs have been reinforced with the presence of a deity. Ostensibly, that deity should be benevolent.

Do you really need a god to know that killing another human being is wrong?

 

[rwahrens]

How do I know if what I'm doing is a "good" thing? Whose definition of that word can I accept? It can't be totally up to me, or you, or the whims of each individual to decide, because then we just spiral into never-ending multilayered battles of individual wills to power. We've seen that worldview play itself out over and over again. That's no way for a planet to operate.

Religion aside, don't we necessarily need--philosophically--a First Cause, a Prime Mover, Being itself in order to have a grounding for notions such as "goodness," "truth," "justice," etc.? For example, The Constitution has meaning only insofar as it recognizes a higher truth as the very grounding and source of the self-evident truth that each human being is born with certain inalienable human rights, and those rights are intelligible enough that the Framers specifically identified them. If there really doesn't exist at least the deistic proposition of God, then the Constitution has no meaning, there are no such things as human rights, "law" evaporates, and all is permissible.

A multitude of the world's best and brightest thinkers have pondered these questions for thousands of years and produced very profound work. It really is a shame to see the same questions treated so flippantly, and to see that long line of brilliant and diverse thinkers lumped in with the likes of Marzulli, to be dismissed with such easy prejudice, contempt, and cynicism.

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?​

Why can't we base morality on what people have based it on for thousands of years? On how our actions affect other human beings. Actions that promote the welfare of the group are good, and actions that are anti-social or harmful are not. That's pretty basic, but you get the idea. Humans have been basing their social rules on those simple ideas since the dawn of man. At least until religion came along...

Hammarabi didn't base his laws upon religion. His laws were based upon how certain actions negatively affected his society and his people.

The Constitution in no way, shape or form bases itself upon the existence of a deity. The only places that religion is mentioned are in places where it is forbidden for the government formed by that document to get involved with it!

So how can you say that it has no meaning? Its meaning is inherent in the existence of man and man's social nature.

The ten commandments are not the basis of our law, the first six are specific to the practice of Judaism, and are antithetical to the very basic meaning of our legal system. The last four include very general rules of behavior in almost any human social setting that go back to Hammarabi himself.

Pretty picture comparisons notwithstanding...

 

[kipspritely]

I feel how NOFX feels on this matter.


"Best God In Show"

I have no consideration
Zero mutual respect
For billions who suffer from rational thought neglect
I don’t wanna waste a sentence
I don’t want a conversation
That’s gonna end in disdain disbelief and aggravation

And I find it’s getting harder to hang out
With grown adults who actually believe
In Santa Clause and Noah’s Ark, and Their god is the best
My distaste has turned into detest

Who would read a 2000-year-old medical journal?
Techniques for blood-letting
Advice on trichinosis
Would you navigate the globe
With a map of a flat Earth?
Without DNA testing would you believe virgin birth?

And I find it’s getting painful to put up
With grown adults who actually believe
In unicorns and creation and god always takes their side
That’s when my innocent jabbing turns snide

Thank god for the Grammy
Thank god for the touchdown
Thank god for blowing up the enemy’s sacred ground
So how am I supposed to take anything you say seriously
When you swap free will for faith, hope and pre-destiny?

And it’s getting agonizing to hang out
With grown adults who actually believe
Mythology and history trump physics and science
My aversion has turned to aberrance

 

[jpw.in.wi]

Do you really need a god to know that killing another human being is wrong?

The Framers seemed to think so.

Even the simple act of using a term like "human being" means we have an understanding of what constitutes human nature as a metaphysical reality, and that understanding has to have a grounding in something. Natural selection, survival of the fittest, might makes right, these have no room for individual human rights or justice and are not adequate on their own. "Social Darwinism" leads to disaster--though it's great if you're one of the few who has already gotten yours and you have no desire to share. Life is tough as they say ...

 

[rwahrens]

The Framers seemed to think so.

Where do you see that?

The sparse references to a deity exist in the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution, and are in every respect consistent with the general religious belief of the day. There are numerous quotes available from numerous founders that refute your assertion that show that the main framers and writers of our founding documents were NOT believers at all, and felt that human rights were inherent in our existence and not granted us from some fairy in the sky.

 

[inuk2600]

Let's assume we remove the perceived rock of God's perfect moral standard whatever that is. We will still have the moral force inherent in family, friendship, cooperation, sympathy, empathy, appreciation, respect, the rewarding feeling of good will and charitableness, etc.

Beyond these, what exactly is the higher ideal that God has to offer?

 

[Loose Leaf Tea]

Good stuff here...

http://www.jesusandmo.net/

http://www.platitudes.org.uk/platblog/index.php

And in case anyone else fancies posting any more BIG pictures of sweet little Mother Teresa, spend a few moments watching this...

 

[inuk2600]

Great video Loose Leaf. Now if we can contrast Mother Teresa's "divinely ordained" operation with a secular organization like Doctors Without Borders...

Her very antiquated views, and the differences in her attitudes towards the rich and the poor hold some clues into the history and machinery of religion.

 

[Xylo]

The Framers seemed to think so.

Are these the "Framers" that kept "savages" (who had no souls) as slaves?

Perhaps then we've evolved further?


Sorry jpw, one doesn't need a god or gods to know that homocide is not a species sustaining act.

 

[redclingfish]

David,

I didn't actually think I would here from you, thanks for responding. I still think (I have listened to almost every back episode now) and get the feeling that you have a very good reason to be so objectionable to the Bible and organized religion, am I right? If so I am sorry it seems like religion has devastated itself. I struggle daily with how christians act and live their lives. But I still say that you are completely rejecting any notion of God and the Bible without looking at all the evidence. As I said my Grandfather is a archeologist, he only became one after attending classes in Israel in the sixty's when the professor was trashing the bible as being a book of fairy tales. He spent the last 49 years of his life showing that this is not true. I don't want you to become a christian or believe in anything at all David, only to give this side a 1% chance of having any sort of value. I am no expert and don't posses any degrees of any sort, and I am not trying to change anyones mind, but you are all acting like babies whenever anyone brings up biblical creation or anything to do with it, you are supposed to be critical thinkers (you are with every other subject that comes up but this). Start acting like one all the time.

 

[Loose Leaf Tea]

Oh here we go, another "good person" desperate for a conversion (join us, join us!)

Hey, Clingfish. You might get more hits if you drop the angry insults at the end of whatever the hell that spiel was supposed to be.

 

[rwahrens]

Oh here we go, another "good person" desperate for a conversion (join us, join us!)

Hey, Clingfish. You might get more hits if you drop the angry insults at the end of whatever the hell that spiel was supposed to be.

Leaf, he's not going to. You notice he ignored all of us and addressed David? He has no answers, like most of the other "privileged" ones, so cannot provide a debate on the merits.

All he can do is plead for "understanding" and a second look and insult those he cannot debate.

 

[Loose Leaf Tea]

Thanks, yeah you're right rwahrens.
I think I'd better stop reading this thread - my blood pressure won't take much more...:frown:

 

[redclingfish]

What is wrong with you guys, I get my head knocked off for nothing. Sorry, I will keep my thoughts to myself, even though this is supposed to be where you can talk about anything, even anal probes in space ships. I guess I don't fit into your cult so well.

 

[Ally]

It can be brutal here at times. I was brought up Catholic and even had a "religious" experience in a church when I was 17. I struggled to understand what that meant. By going outside religious dogma and looking at other people's belief systems my experience fits more into what we are looking at here.

For some people having a religious experience would have converted them for life but I question everything always have and always will.

 

[David Biedny]

rcfish,

Yeah, you did indeed "here"" from me (does no one know how to fucking spell anymore?). Meanwhile, you don't know me, you don't know what my belief system is, you don't know what I think of the idea of God or much of anything besides what I talk about on this show. You're making an ass of yourself. If you're trying to convince us that the Bible is the "word of God", you're in for some real hurt. Is there some historical value to it? Sure, but the signal to noise ratio of that book is pretty low, IMO. And here's the part relevant to this thread: do I accept any validity to Marzulli's contention that it's a useful text to understanding the UFO phenomenon? Not a chance. I tend to agree with the Marx idea that "religion is the opium of the people". I have only to look back at the historical devastation wrought by it to confirm that this is the case. What else do you want to know? You're going to convince us that the Bible offers some insight into the nature of the Universe? I don't think so. Could I be wrong? Certainly. Are you willing to make the same statement from the other end?

dB

 

[Xylo]

For some people having a religious experience would have converted them for life but I question everything always have and always will.

I was raised in a pentecostal environment, dragged to "revivals," witnessed the speaking in tongues, the interpretations and dancing in the aisles...

All it did was convince me that if you stick a bunch of humans in a room with a common goal and common devout belief system, their brain power will manifest something that resembles that goal.

 

[Schuyler]

I was raised in a pentecostal environment, dragged to "revivals," witnessed the speaking in tongues, the interpretations and dancing in the aisles...

All it did was convince me that if you stick a bunch of humans in a room with a common goal and common devout belief system, their brain power will manifest something that resembles that goal.

Xylo, it is to your credit that you were able to perservere. It's awfully difficult to bow out of a strong environment like that. Congratulations!

 

[redclingfish]

David,

I never said I knew you, only that I have listened to your bias comments on creation and anything else to do with the bible. I am not saying that I buy what the guy is saying, only that before you smash everything (because he believes in god) give it a chance thats all. And as far as the Bible being a joke what proof do you have? Also I have to say that it really was depressing to hear you not able to answer yes or no to a question, that was childish. It really drove a nail in my paracast coffin.

I came here for answers to this whole phenomenon and I end up getting blasted to hell. This show (from what I heard) was a place to stretch out and talk, guess not. Hope you find the meaning to life my friend.