May 31, 2009

[Schuyler]

That you have not figured out something does not mean you are in no position to judge other's conclusions. Even if you know absolutely nothing about a given situation, the rules of logic may still be applied. If A imples B and B implies C, then A implies C. End of story. That's a rule of logic. If you'd care to learn more about logical principles, may I suggest Irving Copi's Introduction to Logic, now in its ninth edition, as probably the best book on logic ever printed. ISBN: 978-0130102027.

The whole idea of the Enlightenment, the Renaissance, and science in general is to get rid of the crap, get rid of the charlatans, the snake oil salesmen, the hucksters and jivers who prey on our emotions to further their own ends, to replace nonsensical beliefs with proven truths.

When this guy gets up before everyone trying to sell his wares and claims the nephilim mated with earth girls and THAT 'caused the flood' without ANYTHING whatsoever to even point to the truth of that, then I think anyone with even a modicum of logical thought left in their brain is not only entitled to judge the veracity of such a bat-shit crazy notion, but has a moral obligation to question it if for no other reason that to help save others from such abject idiocy.

Although I have never been to the Moon and know little about it, if someone claims it is made of green cheese I AM going to judge their story and quiz them on why they are so sure of their conclusions.

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

It nowhere says to keep Sunday as the day of rest. It only always taught Saturday. It nowhere teaches an eternal torture of Hell for sinners. No Christmas. No Easter. No Lent.

The sabbath was moved to Sunday at the request of Constantine I, Rome's first Christian Emperor, because his people worshipped the Sun god, Sol Invictus, and they wouldn't move their sabbath (dies Solis). The church has moved most of it's holidays to align with pagan rituals, I guess assuming it would be easier to convert people.

Easter (Ēostre or Ostara) is the name of a Germanic goddess. Feasts were held in her honor during the Anglo-Saxon month Ēostur-monath, which is April. The Christian festival of Easter is derived from that previous tradition. Hares and eggs were part of the Germanic customs.

The Christmas tree is also a pagan tradition, as is mistletoe.. all parts of Yule, and not Christmas. Christmas (Dec 25) is also the winter solstice, and was the Roman solar holiday Dies Natalis Solis Invicti.

 

[swatcher]

Well, there are two things: A). I think I have a clue or two, and B). I use a combination of logic and intuition, more the former than the latter, and when someone is severely lacking any logic to their claims, and my intuition tells me that they're FOS, I call them on it. I'm willing to have a discussion, but when someone says THEY KNOW, I tell them they don't. I could indeed be wrong, I reserve that right at all times (as I've said many, many times before). I can present some of my own theories with background and logic, and am more than willing to do so, but I never claim to have the ultimate answers. That doesn't mean I don't have some clues. Thinking in B&W is too limiting, I like colors, hues and shades.

Beliefs? I could care less. I'm looking for understanding.

dB

dB,

thank you for clearing this up for me.

I just think that the phenomenon at hand is so far removed from what our brains can compute that it doesn't matter what we think about it. Maybe it's just me, but the more I learn about the phenomenon the more confusing it gets. There seems to be no common thread, no real motif to all of this. Some events are just plain nonsensical and do defy logic as we humans know it. How can we then make an educated guess on the veracity of some theories?

But I hear ya. Sometimes you gotta put a stake in the ground ...

 

[swatcher]

... bat-shit crazy notion, but ...

Information on the cleanup and removal of bat guano, bat feces and bat urine.

 

[Xylo]

I'm about 3/4 through this episode. I go into every episode with an open mind, hoping to learn something new.

The things I learned from this episode:

It's LAMarzulli.net because .com was taken.

It's not intellectual honesty / dishonesty to refuse to make an absolute judgement upon an mythological event.

The guest has a single narrow viewpoint of the bible and refuses all other possible interpretations.

Taking cows, experimenting upon them and discarding the carcass is apparently more evil than the dumping of shrimp by-catch.

The guest had never listened to theParacast before and thought that the hosts and the listening audience was ignorant.

The guest, despite demanding a concrete answer from David, never gave a concrete answer to any of the questions asked of him.

I think that's all...(feel free to add more to this list.)

 

[inuk2600]

How can we then make an educated guess on the veracity of some theories?

Extrapolation is my answer to that. Sorry I'm too tired to think and elaborate, can anyone give a better answer?

 

[jpw.in.wi]

I recently returned to these forums, for the simple reason that I seem to sometimes have some masochistic tendencies.

You're not the only one. Sometimes I ask myself why I can't just listen to the programs and leave it at that ...

If you want to understand where I'm coming from, know that this fellow is a personal hero of mine:

David, I really hope that deep down you don't mean it.

FWIW: I was raised Catholic, grew up in a rural "folkish" area where my immigrant ancestors built the church I grew up going to, and the road we lived on was named after my great-great-grand father. I couldn't stand living there as a teenager. I felt like a square peg in a round hole stranded in the middle of nowhere.

But in all that time, surrounded by all those barns and churchgoers with farmer's tans, I NEVER heard the kind of poisonous, demeaning and insulting language expressed towards others--and the world in general--as I heard in this video. I spent my share of years in youthful rebellion, too, so to a degree I understand where this is coming from ... but then again I really just can't understand this kind of hate--and that's what it is, pure white-hot hatred. It's people who commit crimes and atrocities, and people who will go to the most extreme lengths to justify their crimes. Indict individuals for their actions, not whole categories of people. That's really dangerous stuff, in my opinion.

I hear people like this YouTube guy, and others who vent on this forum, and I honestly don't know what "God" or "Jesus" or "Church" they're talking about--and I think that's because they really don't know themselves (that goes for Marzulli, too). They're just comfortable with their neat and tidy stereotypes and scapegoats that they've heard other clever people trot out as needed to make themselves feel like bold and awakened nonconformists--or to make courageous YouTube videos.

The God the folks below knew was certainly different from the one some here seem to be imagining. There's certainly a disconnect that certain individuals need to recognize. These folks gave all and took nothing. They "got it". Anyone want to stand on the soapbox and call them "stupid"?

(left to right) Brother James Miller, teacher, martyred in Guatemala 1982; St. Maximilian Kolbe, martyred at Auschwitz 1941; St. Edith Stein, martyred at Auschwitz 1942

 

[jpw.in.wi]

(left to right) Archbishop Óscar Arnulfo Romero y Galdámez- martyred during mass while saying his homily, 1980; Blessed Omeljan Kovc- martyred at Majdanek 1944 for aiding Jews; (bottom) Mother Teresa of Calcutta- needs no introduction

I want to meet the God these folks lived and died for!

 

[inuk2600]

jpw.in.wi, nobody will dispute that what these people accomplished in their lives was amazingly good and admirable, but human motivation or action as proof of God is a non-sequitur. But thank you for your post, I will try to be a better person for the rest of this evening... er, after I finish my beer. :redface:

 

[conor]

jpw.in.wi, nobody will dispute that what these people accomplished in their lives was amazingly good and admirable, but human motivation or action as proof of God is a non-sequitur. But thank you for your post, I will try to be a better person for the rest of this evening... er, after I finish my beer. :redface:

I think it's just that religion is not the root of all evil, and that when someone makes an intellectual decision to be an atheist, it shouldn't automatically make them diametrically opposed to all things religious. Yet, it does. BTW, anyone who rejects all things scientific because they are religious, and makes science the root of all evil is just as bad.

Blessed are the middle-grounders!

"I am an atheist, and I thank God for it!" George Bernard Shaw

 

[Ally]

Why do so many people have to think in back or white type of worldviews? This episode was quite cringy for me on a few levels. Since I am an "experiencer" and not always visited by the space brothers that must make me evil by proxy and for not calling on Jesus. OK what is wrong with this picture. Oh but wait if I join his group I can be saved like all the other heathens.

 

[swatcher]

Extrapolation is my answer to that. Sorry I'm too tired to think and elaborate, can anyone give a better answer?

Is that a fancy word for guessing LOL

 

[jpw.in.wi]

... anyone who rejects all things scientific because they are religious, and makes science the root of all evil is just as bad.

Agreed!!! Faith and reason inform one another.

 

[tyder001]

I lost my reply somehow. Anyway, David and Gene were vey polite and courteous and although I mentally rolled my eyes when I heard who the guest would be cause I knew they wouldn't agree with him. I found that if the guest had calmed down a little bit there would have been a very (or could have been) good back and forth conversation. Lets face it most folks like this enjoy preaching to the choir. They don't like to be challenged. I even went (not for long cause I don't like him)to the Richie Dawkins page and the so called "rational" folks there were just like the "true believers" they love to preach to the choir. The more I listen the more I appreciate the Paracast.

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

I want to meet the God these folks lived and died for!

Then simply look in the mirror! There's God. Shake hands and get to know each other. You don't need to use God as a reason to do good things.

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

I even went (not for long cause I don't like him)to the Richie Dawkins page and the so called "rational" folks there were just like the "true believers" they love to preach to the choir. The more I listen the more I appreciate the Paracast.

I'm a very scientific person, but the "problem" with many scientists are that they are too materialistic. It's all well and good to understand the mechanisms behind matter (I especially like quantum mechanics), but they are always left with the big question that no one can answer...

Where did all this stuff we know as reality come from?

I think most "God created everything" ideas are far too simplistic, especially since they were formulated a very long time ago when we didn't know squat.

There has to be a middle ground somewhere.

 

[swatcher]

jpw.in.wi,

what is it with your fetish for visuals LOL

 

[redclingfish]

I think I might take the other side of the isle here. Yes I think that christians have gone completely insane and are not worth listening to but, I think that we should give the guys idea's a chance. I am blown away by some of the crap I here that all you buy into as a good theory or idea, then to here you all go crazy because the guy believes the Bible is true drives me nuts. I am sorry but it just seems like you are all trying to do anything you can to escape the God of the Bible. I am no religious maniac by any stretch, my grandpa was a famous biblical archeologist, David Livingston. I think that by having him in my life I am able to at least give this a chance and would ask that you do the same. I do not even know this guy so don't go saying I follow his cult! And before you all attack me and call me an idiot just think of all the crap you have believed at some point. Now put all your pre-conceived notions away and be nice.

 

[David Biedny]

rcfish,

Don't be so defensive. I don't care what people believe in, and I certainly don't care about Marzulli's beliefs. His ideas have zero logic, they consist of religious brainwashing, and therefore hold little value to me, and most other thinking, rational people, IMO. Anyone who wants to base their entire reality on the Bible should have fun, I could give a shit, but to try to impose it's brutal violence, wanton destructiveness and obvious man-made origins as the will and word of whatever is behind this vast Universe we live in, is a load of horseshit.

Oh, and welcome to our forums, if I didn't say hi to you before!

dB

 

[rwahrens]

I think I might take the other side of the isle here. Yes I think that christians have gone completely insane and are not worth listening to but, I think that we should give the guys idea's a chance. I am blown away by some of the crap I here that all you buy into as a good theory or idea, then to here you all go crazy because the guy believes the Bible is true drives me nuts. I am sorry but it just seems like you are all trying to do anything you can to escape the God of the Bible. I am no religious maniac by any stretch, my grandpa was a famous biblical archeologist, David Livingston. I think that by having him in my life I am able to at least give this a chance and would ask that you do the same. I do not even know this guy so don't go saying I follow his cult! And before you all attack me and call me an idiot just think of all the crap you have believed at some point. Now put all your pre-conceived notions away and be nice.

rcfish,

I am as devoted to our Constitutional principle of religious freedom as the next guy, and will never deny you or anyone the right to believe whatever horsesh*t you wish. BUT, while I will do that, I will ridicule, disprove, revile and refute any IDEAS that cannot be backed up by real evidence. The only ideas that should be given credence are the ones that can be backed up by real logic and evidence.

I "escaped" the god of the bible years ago, and only realized it less than two years back. Using, finally, my adult mind and logical thought, (not to mention reading things written by men smarter than myself) I realized that the bible is a collection of documents written by men we don't know, at times we can't nail down to less than 50 year periods, if that accurately. We don't know what their agendas may have been, heck, we don't even have the original documents, so we don't REALLY know what they first wrote, unedited!

The book from which our guest takes his "predictions" is Revelations, as I mentioned in my earlier post, and THAT wasn't even canonized till the thirteenth century (or maybe the twelfth, I forget). I would bet that coming at such a late date, it was probably the result of a political compromise, at that, and so one can take THAT "inspired truth" for what it may be worth.

So his predictions are NOT "thousands" of years old, but are less than two thousand, and were written by a crazy bishop imprisoned by himself on a deserted island, probably talking about the big Satan of the day, Nero.

As db said, internally inconsistent, since anything taken from the bible inevitably inherits the internal inconsistencies of THAT source.

Throw in his delusions taken from Jewish mythology, and you get complete and utter BS.

As for your ancestor, while I respect his reputation, most biblical archeologists today are theists simply trying to prove the bible, sorta like the Naked Archeologist, whom I despise. They twist that book to fit their findings to a terrible degree. (and vice versa)

I commend our hosts for their commendable professionalism in giving this guy a platform he didn't deserve, but an a**whooping he did!