Osama bin laden dead?

[truthseeker]

the basic tenets are to obey or go to hell. is that still valid?

Yeah that about sums it up. Is it still valid? Sure.
If you don't want to believe that your actions have any consequences what-so-ever, then I guess you have nothing to worry about. After all, there is no God, heaven or hell. There is no point to it all - just eat, shit, fuck, have a good time... maybe you can kill a few of those humans while you're at it, after all, they're a bunch of breeding monkeys occupying your space and polluting the environment.

is god coming out with a revised edition? maybe a DVD or something a little more modern?
shit... i bet god could create a pretty cool website! a god forum would be awesome too!

I don't know, why don't you ask him? Maybe he can give a job as a web designer, so you can get on his good side, you know, just in case.

 

[mike]

Murder in the Bible​

The act of murder is rampant in the Bible. In much of the Bible, especially the Old Testament, there are laws that command that people be killed for absurd reasons such as working on the Sabbath, being gay, cursing your parents, or not being a virgin on your wedding night. In addition to these crazy and immoral laws, there are plenty of examples of God's irrationality by his direct killing of many people for reasons that defy any rational explanation such as killing children who make fun of bald people, and the killing of a man who tried to keep the ark of God from falling during transport. There are also countless examples of mass murders commanded by God, including the murder of women, infants, and children.

The following passages are a very small percentage of the total passages approving of murder in the Bible. They are divided here into three parts: 1) Capital Punishment Crimes, 2) God's Murders for Stupid Reasons, 3) Murdering Children, and 4) Miscellaneous Murders. This list is long, but it barely scratches the surface of all the murders approved of in the Bible.

http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm

http://www.evilbible.com/Ritual_Human_Sacrifice.htm

http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm

http://www.evilbible.com/Slavery.htm

The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm. The billowing clouds are the dust beneath his feet. At his command the oceans and rivers dry up, the lush pastures of Bashan and Carmel fade, and the green forests of Lebanon wilt. In his presence the mountains quake, and the hills melt away; the earth trembles, and its people are destroyed. Who can stand before his fierce anger? Who can survive his burning fury? His rage blazes forth like fire, and the mountains crumble to dust in his presence. The LORD is good. When trouble comes, he is a strong refuge. And he knows everyone who trusts in him. But he sweeps away his enemies in an overwhelming flood. He pursues his foes into the darkness of night. (Nahum 1:2-8 NLT)

"You Ethiopians will also be slaughtered by my sword," says the LORD. And the LORD will strike the lands of the north with his fist. He will destroy Assyria and make its great capital, Nineveh, a desolate wasteland, parched like a desert. The city that once was so proud will become a pasture for sheep and cattle. All sorts of wild animals will settle there. Owls of many kinds will live among the ruins of its palaces, hooting from the gaping windows. Rubble will block all the doorways, and the cedar paneling will lie open to the wind and weather. This is the fate of that boisterous city, once so secure. "In all the world there is no city as great as I," it boasted. But now, look how it has become an utter ruin, a place where animals live! Everyone passing that way will laugh in derision or shake a defiant fist. (Zephaniah 2:12-15 NLT)

God's Human Slaughter Fest

Stand in silence in the presence of the Sovereign LORD, for the awesome day of the LORD's judgment has come. The LORD has prepared his people for a great slaughter and has chosen their executioners. "On that day of judgment," says the LORD, "I will punish the leaders and princes of Judah and all those following pagan customs. Yes, I will punish those who participate in pagan worship ceremonies, and those who steal and kill to fill their masters' homes with loot. "On that day," says the LORD, "a cry of alarm will come from the Fish Gate and echo throughout the newer Mishneh section of the city. And a great crashing sound will come from the surrounding hills. Wail in sorrow, all you who live in the market area, for all who buy and sell there will die. "I will search with lanterns in Jerusalem's darkest corners to find and punish those who sit contented in their sins, indifferent to the LORD, thinking he will do nothing at all to them. They are the very ones whose property will be plundered by the enemy, whose homes will be ransacked. They will never have a chance to live in the new homes they have built. They will never drink wine from the vineyards they have planted. "That terrible day of the LORD is near. Swiftly it comes – a day when strong men will cry bitterly. It is a day when the LORD's anger will be poured out. It is a day of terrible distress and anguish, a day of ruin and desolation, a day of darkness and gloom, of clouds, blackness, trumpet calls, and battle cries. Down go the walled cities and strongest battlements! "Because you have sinned against the LORD, I will make you as helpless as a blind man searching for a path. Your blood will be poured out into the dust, and your bodies will lie there rotting on the ground." Your silver and gold will be of no use to you on that day of the LORD's anger. For the whole land will be devoured by the fire of his jealousy. He will make a terrifying end of all the people on earth. (Zephaniah 1:7:18 NLT)

http://www.evilbible.com/Evil%20Bible%20Quotes.htm

 

[PararealitySaint]

so was the hebrew version written by the hand of god or humans?

This is not the place nor the thread to be using to discuss religious belief. The original subject was:

Re: Osama bin laden dead?

The answer is most definitely yes.

The only reason why I spent time on your reply and answered was because I made the mistake of falling into the trap of actually caring about what the content said about Christianity and the relationship with how Christians act in today's society. Considering the fact that this thread isn't the right place to continue this, I apologize to all those who wanted a legitimate discussion about Bin Laden's much deserved demise, and will respectfully decline to continue.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

I do think some of the religious discussion is relevant, as some people are wondering about the burial at sea, I do think we sort of went off the rails at the end.

Let's try to keep this discussion to why some people think he's been dead for years and other accept that he was just killed in the raid as stated by President Obama. Or if you think he's at Area 51, hypothesize about that too!

Thanks

PS The picture that Pixel posted is real and I have seen it in person. It's from a church in Montreal.

 

[mike]

I do think some of the religious discussion is relevant, as some people are wondering about the burial at sea, I do think we sort of went off the rails at the end.

Let's try to keep this discussion to why some people think he's been dead for years and other accept that he was just killed in the raid as stated by President Obama. Or if you think he's at Area 51, hypothesize about that too!

Thanks

PS The picture that Pixel posted is real and I have seen it in person. It's from a church in Montreal.

It reminds me of this one

---------- Post added at 01:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:17 PM ----------

Notice [/B]the word "LORD" and not the followers of Christ to do anything.

Jesus taught those who truly wished to follow his words to be peaceful, loving, humble and without doubt, pacifistic in all ways but in the laws they must adhere to according to the state they live within....as in..... "Render onto Ceaser what is Ceaser's and Render onto God what is Gods" meant that even though we are to love thyne enemies, we are also to follow the laws of the land and KILL the enemy if he be an enemy and commanded to do so by the state.

Please get it correct next time you choose to attempt to make the Christian faith out to be some hate filled religion. If one truly follows the words of the Lord Jesus Christ, one is ALWAYS the exact opposite than a hate filled person, evil doer, or a murderer. Anything less (and unforgiven by the Redeemer) will be severely judged by the Lord upon judgment day.

Actually.........

Matthew 5:17-20
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

So the OT laws are still in effect.

Jesus said that "not a letter of the law shall pass away until the mission is done."

The mission of the messiah was to bring about a perfect world. Christians believe there is a second coming because, lo-and-behold, we observe an imperfect world.

Thus every Christian should, on the basis of Jesus's own words, be holding to the Jewish law, and should be condemning Paul as a false prophet for saying otherwise.

So the OT laws, including instructions on killing infidels still apply
as do these


http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

1. That the Court shall pass sentence of death by decapitation with the sword (Ex. 21:20; Lev. 26:25) (affirmative).
2. That the Court shall pass sentence of death by strangulation (Lev. 20:10) (affirmative).
3. That the Court shall pass sentence of death by burning with fire (Lev. 20:14) (affirmative).
4. That the Court shall pass sentence of death by stoning (Deut. 22:24) (affirmative).

funnily enough it also contains instructions that apply to osama

1. That the dead body of an executed criminal shall not remain hanging on the tree over night (Deut. 21:23) (negative).
2. To inter the executed on the day of execution

 

[inc0gneato]

No I am saying that religion is seldom the motivation for war. War is invariably about power and money. In other words while religion may have been or is used as justification for crimes against humanity, it is not directly responsible, the people who manipulate and twist it are.

I think there was a time when wars were based largely on religion (at least most of the people fighting in those wars thought it was), and greed and spoils certainly played a large part (for the organizers). Now days though I think it's exactly about power and money, less so about religion. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. It's always been so, unfortunately. Religion still is used to rile up the masses though.

 

[inc0gneato]

Ok, back to the conspiracies as Angel of Ioren suggested. It almost seems silly to point to all the lies that have led up to this point, and honestly there have been so many that I can't even remember them all (and that's just since 2001). I tend to believe what Jesse Ventura had to say during his visit to the Paracast, that we are now a fascist country and have been for quite awhile, although I first came to realize this around the time we invaded Iraq on the false premise of WMD and links to Al Qaeda.

Since I can't possibly remember it all, I'll give the cliff notes version as I remember it. Actually the Area 51 theory was pretty interesting, and I suppose anything is possible, especially when the government seems to be completely corrupt, and greedy liars who don't care about the oath they swore, or the people they are supposed to serve (and yes even about Christianity or whatever religion you prefer).

Basically, Osama Bin Laden was courted and some say created by the CIA during the Russian foray into Afghanistan. So it's certainly possible that Bin Laden was a CIA asset all the way to the current day. If the area 51 theory were to be correct (or parts of it) and Bin Laden has been an asset and maybe still alive and was prepared to out the 9/11 false flag operation then that would make him a patsy, maybe a patsy that they finally decided to get rid of. But remember the blunder at Tora Bora? Where Bin Laden got away from the military operation that was supposed to capture or kill him? It seemed pretty clear at the time that he was allowed to escape (why kill your bogeyman and prematurely possibly end the war). If he was even there. Originally I was thinking that he was killed there and the myth kept alive until they wanted to trot the bogeyman out when it best served their purpose.

I seem to recall a paper that said that with the end of communism the united states needed a new enemy for the citizens to rally against (maybe it was Partnership for the New American Century - Wikimedia Error - check out the "Rebuilding America's Defenses" document). If you read the document and look at the drafter's of that document and who was associated with them (GWB, Cheney, Wofowitz), it's clearly the blue print for the Bush presidency and even calls for the need for a "New Pearl Harbor," 9/11 anyone? The document even talks about the "axis of evil," and other Bush administration buzz words and policies. I believe the Rand Corporation also did a paper (back in the day) where they said the citizens needed to have a bogeyman for want of a better word, which used to be the Russians and the Red Menace.

At any rate, it was clear they needed a bogeyman to advance their agenda and stay in power, whether that bogeyman was a willing conspirator or a convenient terrorist to fill that role, Bin Laden fit the bill.

Now to the current day and the current information about the death of Bin Laden that seems kind of outlandish, burial at sea within 12 hours of death (depending on which story you believe), and now Bin Laden not even being armed when shot, and no photos or proof released. Today I read something which was purported to be from one of his daughters who was there, who said Bin Laden was captured and basically stood against a wall and executed (not sure I buy that one). Who knows what to believe anymore? The only thing that seems clear is that we are being fed a line of bullshit about the state of our country and the world and have been for a long, long time.

I realize that there are valid reasons for not releasing the pictures, and even for not taking Bin Laden alive. The government expects us to trust them but after so many obvious lies (over the past 50-75 years) to those who are paying attention, how can we? So is Bin Laden dead? Yeah probably. Is that good? Yeah I believe so. What I think people need to be most concerned about is how our process of laws and the constitution, or even morality no longer seem to matter to our supposed leaders.

In the military we used to say Trust but Verify. Without verification how can we trust? And why are we now being told we simply have to TRUST?

 

[boomerang]

Robert Heinlein was apparently about as staunchly patriotic as it gets, a graduate of the Naval Academy, an officer and probably a gentleman--I would love to have met him. But if you read his fiction and some of his later non-fiction essays, you will find a basic distrust in "the establishment". Heinlein was a shrewd observer of human nature. One of his recurrent themes was abuse of power. Power-- political, economic, or religious-- inevitably corrupts.

 

[Kieran]

One of Osama Bin Laden's daughter's told the media in Pakistan her father was indeed shot and killed last weekend. That ends the debate for me is he dead. But she has claimed however Osama Bin Laden was captured alive first then shot later by the Americans? Who is telling the truth here the White House or his daughter?

 

[trainedobserver]

One of the problems with the governmental type conspiracy theories is that they require levels of creativity and operational excellence from a government that folks generally acknowledge is incompetent, ineffective, and consumed in bipartisan bickering. Talk about cognitive dissonance!

The stammering basket cases took how long to decide to "not to show the photos" and gave what lame unprecedented and historically unsupportable reason? These are master's of manipulation and deception?

I am pissed it took 10 years to get the guy. Sorry. But I think the celebration should be cut short and a serious postmortem study on the whole "hunt for OBL" be done.

 

[Facius_Cardan]

One of the problems with the governmental type conspiracy theories is that they require levels of creativity and operational excellence from a government that folks generally acknowledge is incompetent, ineffective, and consumed in bipartisan bickering. Talk about cognitive dissonance!

The story doesn't have to be particularly well built. We live in a system where the official institutions feed a story to the media and they just go along with it. By extension, most of the people will also go with it and even defend it against possible questions, no matter how reasonable they are. It's like an organism defending itself against an infection: the antibodies are irrational, but their action is immediate and very strong. If needed, the government will throw some further info to act as an "antibiotic" and aid in the effort to "eliminate" the doubters.

 

[truthseeker]

Murder in the Bible​

The act of murder is rampant in the Bible. In much of the Bible, especially the Old Testament, there are laws that command that people be killed for absurd reasons such as working on the Sabbath, being gay, cursing your parents, or not being a virgin on your wedding night. In addition to these crazy and immoral laws, there are plenty of examples of God's irrationality by his direct killing of many people for reasons that defy any rational explanation such as killing children who make fun of bald people, and the killing of a man who tried to keep the ark of God from falling during transport. There are also countless examples of mass murders commanded by God, including the murder of women, infants, and children.

The following passages are a very small percentage of the total passages approving of murder in the Bible. They are divided here into three parts: 1) Capital Punishment Crimes, 2) God's Murders for Stupid Reasons, 3) Murdering Children, and 4) Miscellaneous Murders. This list is long, but it barely scratches the surface of all the murders approved of in the Bible.

http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm

http://www.evilbible.com/Ritual_Human_Sacrifice.htm

http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm

http://www.evilbible.com/Slavery.htm
http://www.evilbible.com/Evil Bible Quotes.htm

Ok, let's make something clear here. Some of the commandments that you're talking about for which people were supposed to be executed like adultery, breaking Sabbath or cursing parents were rarely if ever carried out. For any such thing to be carried out you needed to have 2 witnesses which were supposed to give you warnings prior to committing the act. So for example if you suspect that a woman was involved in a forbidden relationship you had to warn her about it and then you actually had to witness the act and I mean the actual intercourse. Then and only then you could go to court and report after which it was decided about execution. It's not as simple or absolute as you think. All these laws are described in Jewish Oral Torah which was written down about 2000 years because of the persecution by the Romans. Prior to that it was forbidden to write it down. Oral Torah is the key to understanding Old Testament and people spend their entire lives studying it. There are numerous commentaries and interpretations by great Jewish sages and it all makes it extremely complex. On top of that you must have a vast understanding of ancient Hebrew and Aramaic.

So, the point is - let's not jump to conclusions here. I doubt that any people here including myself are scholars of the Old Testament.

 

[stphrz]

The story doesn't have to be particularly well built. We live in a system where the official institutions feed a story to the media and they just go along with it. By extension, most of the people will also go with it and even defend it against possible questions, no matter how reasonable they are. It's like an organism defending itself against an infection: the antibodies are irrational, but their action is immediate and very strong. If needed, the government will throw some further info to act as an "antibiotic" and aid in the effort to "eliminate" the doubters.

What do the doubters doubt and why do they doubt it? What is it about doubt that elevates it from acceptance. For some it seems that doubt, even if completely unfounded by any concrete facts, is automatically a virtue. Acceptance a vice.

Do we know everything about what happened? No. Will we ever know everything about what happened? Unlikely.

Did the American military go into Pakistan and kill Bin Laden a couple of days ago? Yes. Are there things we aren't being told? Most certainly. Does this change the basic facts that Bin Laden is dead and the Americans killed him? No.

And in case you haven't been following the news, the operation it seems did not go off without a hitch. A helicopter with advanced technology was lost. Although it was mostly destroyed, there is a possibility that some of this technology ended up in foreign hands. At the very least this is embarrassing. At worst a serious breach of security that could, in time, come back to haunt the US. The media is not just simply just going along. They are asking questions. Perhaps not the kind of questions you want answers to, but then it is not possible to please everyone. In the future, I expect more will come to light that will give us a better handle on what went down. And I expect the conspiracy buffs will fill in the gaps with all manner of wild speculation.

 

[mike]

Ok, let's make something clear here. Some of the commandments that you're talking about for which people were supposed to be executed like adultery, breaking Sabbath or cursing parents were rarely if ever carried out. For any such thing to be carried out you needed to have 2 witnesses which were supposed to give you warnings prior to committing the act. So for example if you suspect that a woman was involved in a forbidden relationship you had to warn her about it and then you actually had to witness the act and I mean the actual intercourse. Then and only then you could go to court and report after which it was decided about execution. It's not as simple or absolute as you think. All these laws are described in Jewish Oral Torah which was written down about 2000 years because of the persecution by the Romans. Prior to that it was forbidden to write it down. Oral Torah is the key to understanding Old Testament and people spend their entire lives studying it. There are numerous commentaries and interpretations by great Jewish sages and it all makes it extremely complex. On top of that you must have a vast understanding of ancient Hebrew and Aramaic.

So, the point is - let's not jump to conclusions here. I doubt that any people here including myself are scholars of the Old Testament.

Look you can twist and turn, move the goal posts, do whatever it takes to avoid the facts, but at the end of the day the book contains these laws and references and examples, for example

2 Kings 2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

or

"Take your son, your only son – yes, Isaac, whom you love so much – and go to the land of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you." (Genesis 22:1-18) Abraham takes his own son up on a mountain and builds an altar upon which to burn him. He even lies to his son and has him help build the altar. Then Abraham ties his son to the altar and puts a knife to his throat. He then hears God tell him this was just a test of his faith. However, God still wanted to smell some burnt flesh so he tells Abraham to burn a ram.

Even though he didn't kill his son, it is still an incredibly cruel and evil thing to do. If Abraham did that today he would be in jail serving a long sentence as someone's prison-bitch. It amazes me how Christians see this story as a sign of God's love. There is no love here, just pure unadulterated evil.

The first seven chapters of Leviticus have extensive rules regarding animal and food sacrifices.

The bible contains example after example of obscene cruelty, i wont even start on the "great" flood.........

You need to make excuses for this sickening stuff in order to reconcile them, but you cant have it both ways, it cant be both the perfect word of god, and badly translated oral tradition all at once.
At the end of the day the book clearly contains example after example of things that are just plain evil.

Lot getting not one, but two of his daughters preggers, but of course it wasnt his fault they got him drunk, not too drunk to F F F Fornicate, mind you, just drunk enough to not be responsible, try telling that to a modern day judge, "yes your honour, i got both my daughters pregnant, but its not my fault they got me drunk............"
This is an example of a just and rightious man ?

This has always been the problem, in order to reconcile the babarity printed within, you have to make excuses for god.

But let me ask you, since jesus says

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished

have you fulfiled the law ?

To learn Torah and to teach it (Deut. 6:7)
That every person shall write a scroll of the Torah for himself (Deut. 31:19
To bind tefillin on the head (Deut. 6: 8
To bind tefillin on the arm (Deut. 6: 8
To affix the mezuzah to the doorposts and gates of your house (Deut. 6:9)

Not to add to the commandments of the Torah, whether in the Written Law or in its interpretation received by tradition (Deut. 13:1) (CCN159). See Torah.
Not to take away from the commandments of the Torah (Deut. 13:1)

Jesus makes it very very clear these rules are still in effect, not one has "disappeared" according to JC

 

[jimp]

Stonings must have been pretty common. Jesus encountered one and uttered the famous words: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Jesus was obviously willing to go against the OT in this regard -- as well as many others, like not observing the Sabbath. So that puts me in the position of disagreeing with both Mike and Truthseeker.

There were many traditions, stories, letters, writings that eventually became what we call the New Testament. Final agreement about what should be in the Bible was not arrived at until the 4th century AD. And Martin Luther changed this up a bit during the Reformation. So it is understandable that there are many inconsistencies and outright contradictions. *shrugs*

 

[Han]

We can argue the good and bad points of christianity we can "blaspheme" till we get bored because we have FREEDOM of SPEECH in other words our freedom in the western world comes before religion. If you think about it there have been many oppresive regimes that have been secular. However I ask you to consider this scenario if someone was to draw a cartoon of the christian god or to say derogatory things about him you might get a few people complaining but I sincerley doubt that there would be serious ramifications for that person. (and clearly there are many on here that are not too worried)
What I am getting at is if you have water that is easy to access, food in the fridge and can express your thoughts and ideas freely you are in the minority of the world population.
So I would ask that rather than wasting time and energy on an endless arguement you reflect on all the good things you have, and live and let live.

Just for claritys sake I am not Christian or any other religion.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Again, this thread it meandering into talk of the bible, which has nothing to do with Osama Bin Laden.
Some of you guys like the bible, others don't - it's irrelevant to this discussion. Lets try and stay on topic.

 

[Slim Shady]

Sign up to the marines to avoid the draft looks like were going into pakistan ! ! !

 

[Facius_Cardan]

The media is not just simply just going along. They are asking questions. Perhaps not the kind of questions you want answers to, but then it is not possible to please everyone. In the future, I expect more will come to light that will give us a better handle on what went down. And I expect the conspiracy buffs will fill in the gaps with all manner of wild speculation.

I don't identify myself with the label of conspiracy theorist. As with paranormal phenomena, I have profound doubts about any event or fact about which I don't possess the full spectrum of information.
I have a degree in journalism and I've worked in the biggest newspaper here in Portugal (more than 1.2 million readers per day which is a very good figure in a country with a population of 10 millions) and I've gained a totally different insight into the realities of newsmaking nowadays. The old time ideals of investigative journalism are long gone. The agenda setting of newspapers, radio and TV stations, combined with the hierarchical structure that makes everything go through a small group of people (the editors), invalidates any chance of producing really honest and thruthful news. I've seen many bits and pieces of my texts, that were 100% true and fact checked with various sources, cut off by editors because of political and economical interests (and they had no problem in saying that to my face!). That happens every day on the supposedly democratic, free-world media. That's censorship and information manipulation. Things like these led me to abandon my work as a journalist, because I can't cope with manipulating info to protect institutions of power and make the public look to the other side while corruption, theft and even murder are taking place at the highest levels. What could I do as an individual? Go online with info and be labeled as a nut? Go to court against some of the biggest financial groups in my country and end up losing? I can't do a thing because the so-called instruments of democracy like justice and the media themselves are, in fact, the instruments that act in order to preserve a status quo defined by political power on a lower level and the economic power on an upper level.
It always reminds me of a quote by former CIA counter-intelligence director James Jesus Angleton: "deception is a state of mind and the mind of the state". That sounds more true than ever!

 

[PararealitySaint]

I don't identify myself with the label of conspiracy theorist. As with paranormal phenomena, I have profound doubts about any event or fact about which I don't possess the full spectrum of information.
I have a degree in journalism and I've worked in the biggest newspaper here in Portugal (more than 1.2 million readers per day which is a very good figure in a country with a population of 10 millions) and I've gained a totally different insight into the realities of newsmaking nowadays. The old time ideals of investigative journalism are long gone. The agenda setting of newspapers, radio and TV stations, combined with the hierarchical structure that makes everything go through a small group of people (the editors), invalidates any chance of producing really honest and thruthful news. I've seen many bits and pieces of my texts, that were 100% true and fact checked with various sources, cut off by editors because of political and economical interests (and they had no problem in saying that to my face!). That happens every day on the supposedly democratic, free-world media. That's censorship and information manipulation. Things like these led me to abandon my work as a journalist, because I can't cope with manipulating info to protect institutions of power and make the public look to the other side while corruption, theft and even murder are taking place at the highest levels. What could I do as an individual? Go online with info and be labeled as a nut? Go to court against some of the biggest financial groups in my country and end up losing? I can't do a thing because the so-called instruments of democracy like justice and the media themselves are, in fact, the instruments that act in order to preserve a status quo defined by political power on a lower level and the economic power on an upper level.
It always reminds me of a quote by former CIA counter-intelligence director James Jesus Angleton: "deception is a state of mind and the mind of the state". That sounds more true than ever!

You know something, I sat and re-read your post here a few times, and I seriously wondered whether or not I agreed with what it said. At first I thought, "well he would know a hell of a lot better than you would how hard it is to fight city hall", but then I remember working for a company which started out developing a small microwave relay station between St. Louis and Chicago grow into one of the largest Telecommunications companies in the world. I remember people comparing those in the drivers seat at the company as "David to Goliath" and watched as divestiture destroyed the monolithic Bell operating Company as we know it today.

I remembered this and then wondered if it is true that we really don't stand a chance against the big wigs anymore. Perhaps an initially small outfit like MCI had a better chance to fight with the backing of lobby money, than did one journalist against the big papers.....

Perhaps the Colonial patriots had no chance to shed off the control of the majestic Britannia during a time in which she was the leader of the seas and keeper of Fat George's lusts.....

But tell me something here. If we allow ourselves to feel like how you do and thus seemingly acquiesce to this indifference, wouldn't we be doing an injustice to the very rebellious instinct every patriot and warrior for freedom would expect of us?

Please understand I am not judging you, and as I mentioned, I took your words here to heart. But my friend, please note something....

I come from a long line of Rebels. The country of my racial origin has been the epicenter of destruction and pain ever since it was considered a country. I was told that my Great Grandfather died a poor and desolate man attempting to help send food, clothing and materials to his country and thus get what it needed for as long as he could. At one time he was the owner of one of the largest furniture stores in Chicago during the 30's, but lost all of his money during the years the Communists finally took over his family's homeland. To this day one of my Great Aunts has 4 giant chests filled with bonds/IOU's and bank notes which are now worthless because the active govt. in the country decided they didn't have to pay back all that was taken from him in the hopes his family and homeland would one day be free....as they are today.

My point is....My Grandfather sacrificed himself and might have lost the battle....but eventually the war was won.

Many died during the 1775 to 1782 and beyond War For Independence in my country. They never knew that fighting the good fight against this mad man and his greed would eventually wind up freeing The United States to become the beautiful place it is today.

During the early stages of MCI, many men and women placed their entire life savings on a dream against one of the largest companies in the world (AT&T), and because of this, fought long and hard to split up one of the worst monopolies this country ever allowed to be.

They say that in numbers there is strength, and that might be how some choose to answer my reply here today....but to that I say remember something....

It took one person to have the dream to fight a monopoly. He co founded MCI and his name was John D. Goeken. If it wasn't for his maverick attempt at doing the right thing, you wouldn't have all these companies today vying for IPOD access, long distance networking, etc. etc.

It took the work of one man, Thomas Paine to keep the Patriots in the game after so many downfalls when he wrote Common Sense.

It took single patriots like my Great Grandfather and their love of their families homeland to pay the price and die for their beliefs before one day the rest of that country could finally know freedom and enjoy the benefits of their sacrifice.

In conclusion I am saying, if it is your dream, don't give up the fight. I bet you were a fantastic journalist and somebody I could deeply respect. If it is something you regret leaving, start a small paper with your ideas at heart and collect those around you who are willing to also fight for the truth....

God Bless.