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The Extraterrestrial Hypothesis : Fact and Fallacy

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Using Roswell as a measure, we know something crashed
I'm reasonably sure something did. Call it > 90% sure something happened.

and it seems that some kind of bodies were recovered
I think it's possible, but very improbable that bodies were recovered for reasons stated above. Call it < 10% sure bodies were recovered.

and in Kecksberg there was also a recovery of an object.
I think that's somewhere in the > 30% < 50% likelihood.

In both cases human technology is in fact the parsimonious answer. And it couldn't be hidden. Leaks and witnesses stepped fwd.

I agree. If something came down and was recovered at Kecksberg, I think it was the russian capsule that came down the same day. I mean, it looked like it (acorn shaped with weird writing around the rim), it acted like it (it came down on fire, crashed, and then sat there), and there was good reason for hiding it - we had an international agreement that any space junk that came down and was recovered would be returned to it's home country. The US probably wanted to keep it.

And if alien bodies or alien tech were present the scale of said recoveries would be massive and involve a heck of a lot of personnel running around in big friggin protective suits.

Yup.

The idea of an alien craft with bodies crashing to earth would be an event of such enormous magnitude involving so many people and affecting so many more, not to mention the massive scale of what would be required to contain an alien technology or other biological life forms. There's simply no way you can put a lid on the biggest event in human history and think that like in the movies it can all be neatly hidden in Area 51. If it had happened not only would we know through leaks left right and centre, the studying and containment of it would be well visible and our social structure and ideas about air defence would have altered so radically that everyone would know. It's not about the govt deciding that they don't want to disrupt social structure - they simply would not have the capacity to pretend like nothing ever happened.

The one thing the govt has done exceedingly well has been perception management when it comes to the idea of ufos. Now why do you think they are so interested in wanting to leak out UFO reality all the time and make it appear like aliens are here? Silver Screen Saucers? Mirage Men anyone? Maybe the govt is also a firm believer in parsimony for the populous as well. Now why would that be? Maybe aliens from space is a much easier story to sell than what's really going on. Because I'm generally very distrusting of big brother and if they're trying to promote and demote UFO reality back and forth then yeah, asking other questions about this mystery instead of resting confidentially on the ETH would seem a rational thing.
And all that would require that the US military-industrial-political complex was almost godlike in it's abilities and insights.

Which it is clearly not. I mean, look at the very large number of military, economic, and political failures post WWII. I see a bumbling mess.
 
What is the source of the 'autopsy report' you have highlighted in blue type?

Its the one from the back of majestic. Streiber insists it was given to him by someone reliable. Ive had a pathologist at a hospital read it and he says, while bizarre its consistent with a real report.

Full reports:

SUBJECT: AUTOPSY REPORT # 1
DATE: 7/14/47
COPY ONE OF THREE

Initial Findings Upon Examination And Autopsy Of The Body Of An Apparent Alien Creature

1. External Appearance

This body was observed to be in a state of significant deterioration. It hadbeen preserved with formaldehyde solution but not otherwise dissected.

The cadaver was 44 inches long with a weight of 27 pounds when the preservative solution had been drained.

The external appearance of this cadaver was of a human embryo with an enlarged cranium. Hands and feet were normal. Fingers and toenails had been had been pared. Fingerprints of a swirl-left pattern were observed and taken. All ten fingers and toes were apparent. There was some vestigial webbing between first and second fingers and toes.

Sexual organs appeared to be those of a male. They were in an embryonic state and revealed no evidence of pubescence.

Ears were partially formed, and showed some evidence of surgical intervention. Folds of skin had been drawn out from the surface of the scalp in an apparent attempt to create the impression of a more fully developed ear than was actuallypresent.

Lips were vestigial and the mouth contained no erupted teeth. The nose was also in an incomplete state of growth and had also received surgical intervention, resulting in what appeared to be a very thin a delicate organ.

Eyes were distinguished by extensive surgical intervention. They were almond-shaped and by far the most prominent facial feature. The eyeballs were not matured and appeared to have been sutured with artificial lenses of an unknown type. Because of their extremely unusual condition, dissection of these eyes was not attempted.

2. Dissection

An incision was made from the thorax to the scrotum. The skin was first extendedfrom the fascia and the fascia was observed to be consistent with the appearance of an immature human male. The fascia were then dissected and the internal organs were observed. The position of the heart was observed to be vertical, as would be consistent with a very early fetus, prior to the fourth month. The organ was prominent and was weighed to be 1/70th of the mass of the body. When the organ was dissected it was found that there was direct communication between the two auricles through the formen ovale. The Eustachian valve was observed to be large. A ductus arteriosus was observed to communicate between the pulmonary artery and the descending aorta. This ductus opened into the descending aorta just below the origin of the left subclavian artery.

Alterations in the structure of the circulatory system suggested that this body had been surgically corrected to detach it from placental dependence in an artificial manner. The stomach was opened and found to be free of any food substances. The cardiac orifice was apparently atrophied, although the deterioration of the corpus made this difficult to determine. It is possible that this individual did not eat.

The liver was prominent and it was clear that the blood of the umbilical vein would traverse it before entering the inferior cava. The umbilical vein itself had been severed of its placental crown and returned to the circulatory system by a means that was beyond the scope of this dissection to establish.

The lungs were not developed. There were lateral pouches on either side of the central diverticulum, open through into the pharynx. The larynx was somewhat cartilaginous and the trachea was developed.

It is probable that this individual did not breathe and more than he ate. The means of sustaining life is unknown, if he was ever alive in any practical sense.

The cranium was dissected and it was found that the skull was formed of exceptionally thin and pliant cartilaginous material, appearing to be bone precursor that had been affected in some manner, making it more than usually thin and delicate. The brain itself was extensively and surprisingly formed. There was an unknown cortex superimposed on the forebrain and extending as far back as the fissure of Ralando.

Because of this extraordinary formation it was decided not to pursue dissection of the brain at this time. The organ was extracted and placed in fluid preservation pending further study.

Overall, this corpus presented the appearance of a human embryo of three to four months duration that had been the subject of considerable alteration and modification, some of it obviously surgical. Other modifications, such as that of the brain, were harder to understand. In addition to the alterations, there was the matter of the size of the body and the relatively mature condition of the epidermis and nails. It would appear that this fetus was separated from its mother and brought to a semi-functional state by artificial means.

3. Conclusion

This is a human fetus that has been subjected to forced maturation without normal gestation. Its degree of functionality while living if it ever was alive is unknown.



=====================
SUBJECT: AUTOPSY REPORT # 2
DATE: 7/14/47
COPY ONE OF THREE

Initial Findings Upon Examination And Autopsy Of The Body Of An Apparent Alien Creature

1. External Appearance

This body was observed to be in a state of profound deterioration. It had notbeen preserved but was delivered in a container of rubberized canvas, to which some of the tissue had adhered. The cadaver was 36 inches long with a weight of 8 pounds. The external appearance of this cadaver was not of a human type.

The skin appeared smooth and a dark bluish-gray in color. There was no clothing on the body. There were no genitals and no was of determining sex, if any. The nose consisted of two slits, the mouth was a small opening that did not appear to be supported by an articulated law, and there were holes in the position of ears. The cranium was round and large in proportion to the body and the eyes were almond-shaped. The eyes were closed and could not be opened without damaging structures, due to condition of decaying tissue.

Arms and wrists were very thin. The hands displayed a three-digit arrangement without thumb. The arms extended to approximately three inches above the knee. The three fingers extended directly from the wrist, with no palm.

2. Dissection

The body was opened from crotch to chin. A green liquid emerged from the incision. The skin was not backed by fascia, and the bone structure appeared to be a cartilaginous substance of light green-blue color.

Internal organs were observed but their function was unclear. The thoracic and peritoneal cavities communicated and there appeared to be no respiratory system and no stomach. The esophagus was vestigial and dissipated before reaching another organ.

There appeared to be two multi-chambered hearts and it was surmised that body fluid could be pumped rapidly. There was an extensive circulatory system that involved three different types of vein. Some material was extracted from one of these systems and suggested possible waste, leading to the notion that waste mayhave been exuded through the skin.

The fluid removed from the body was analyzed under the microscope and found to be a vegetable substance, chlorophyll-based. It is possible that photosynthesis was the means of obtaining energy.

The cranium was dissected and it was observed that a ridge of cartilage separated the brain into two completely isolated components. The brain was severely deteriorated, but appeared to be extensively fissured and divided into numerous lobes. Because of the deterioration the degree of bilateralism of the two halves could not be determined with any accuracy.

This cadaver exuded an unusually foul odor.

3. Conclusion

This is not a cadaver of a kind previously observed by or known to this pathologist. It appears to be a form of creature utilizing elements of both the animal and vegetable.
 
Its the one from the back of majestic. Streiber insists it was given to him by someone reliable. Ive had a pathologist at a hospital read it and he says, while bizarre its consistent with a real report.

Full reports:

SUBJECT: AUTOPSY REPORT # 1
DATE: 7/14/47
COPY ONE OF THREE

Initial Findings Upon Examination And Autopsy Of The Body Of An Apparent Alien Creature

1. External Appearance

This body was observed to be in a state of significant deterioration. It hadbeen preserved with formaldehyde solution but not otherwise dissected.

The cadaver was 44 inches long with a weight of 27 pounds when the preservative solution had been drained.

The external appearance of this cadaver was of a human embryo with an enlarged cranium. Hands and feet were normal. Fingers and toenails had been had been pared. Fingerprints of a swirl-left pattern were observed and taken. All ten fingers and toes were apparent. There was some vestigial webbing between first and second fingers and toes.

Sexual organs appeared to be those of a male. They were in an embryonic state and revealed no evidence of pubescence.

Ears were partially formed, and showed some evidence of surgical intervention. Folds of skin had been drawn out from the surface of the scalp in an apparent attempt to create the impression of a more fully developed ear than was actuallypresent.

Lips were vestigial and the mouth contained no erupted teeth. The nose was also in an incomplete state of growth and had also received surgical intervention, resulting in what appeared to be a very thin a delicate organ.

Eyes were distinguished by extensive surgical intervention. They were almond-shaped and by far the most prominent facial feature. The eyeballs were not matured and appeared to have been sutured with artificial lenses of an unknown type. Because of their extremely unusual condition, dissection of these eyes was not attempted.

2. Dissection

An incision was made from the thorax to the scrotum. The skin was first extendedfrom the fascia and the fascia was observed to be consistent with the appearance of an immature human male. The fascia were then dissected and the internal organs were observed. The position of the heart was observed to be vertical, as would be consistent with a very early fetus, prior to the fourth month. The organ was prominent and was weighed to be 1/70th of the mass of the body. When the organ was dissected it was found that there was direct communication between the two auricles through the formen ovale. The Eustachian valve was observed to be large. A ductus arteriosus was observed to communicate between the pulmonary artery and the descending aorta. This ductus opened into the descending aorta just below the origin of the left subclavian artery.

Alterations in the structure of the circulatory system suggested that this body had been surgically corrected to detach it from placental dependence in an artificial manner. The stomach was opened and found to be free of any food substances. The cardiac orifice was apparently atrophied, although the deterioration of the corpus made this difficult to determine. It is possible that this individual did not eat.

The liver was prominent and it was clear that the blood of the umbilical vein would traverse it before entering the inferior cava. The umbilical vein itself had been severed of its placental crown and returned to the circulatory system by a means that was beyond the scope of this dissection to establish.

The lungs were not developed. There were lateral pouches on either side of the central diverticulum, open through into the pharynx. The larynx was somewhat cartilaginous and the trachea was developed.

It is probable that this individual did not breathe and more than he ate. The means of sustaining life is unknown, if he was ever alive in any practical sense.

The cranium was dissected and it was found that the skull was formed of exceptionally thin and pliant cartilaginous material, appearing to be bone precursor that had been affected in some manner, making it more than usually thin and delicate. The brain itself was extensively and surprisingly formed. There was an unknown cortex superimposed on the forebrain and extending as far back as the fissure of Ralando.

Because of this extraordinary formation it was decided not to pursue dissection of the brain at this time. The organ was extracted and placed in fluid preservation pending further study.

Overall, this corpus presented the appearance of a human embryo of three to four months duration that had been the subject of considerable alteration and modification, some of it obviously surgical. Other modifications, such as that of the brain, were harder to understand. In addition to the alterations, there was the matter of the size of the body and the relatively mature condition of the epidermis and nails. It would appear that this fetus was separated from its mother and brought to a semi-functional state by artificial means.

3. Conclusion

This is a human fetus that has been subjected to forced maturation without normal gestation. Its degree of functionality while living if it ever was alive is unknown.



=====================
SUBJECT: AUTOPSY REPORT # 2
DATE: 7/14/47
COPY ONE OF THREE

Initial Findings Upon Examination And Autopsy Of The Body Of An Apparent Alien Creature

1. External Appearance

This body was observed to be in a state of profound deterioration. It had notbeen preserved but was delivered in a container of rubberized canvas, to which some of the tissue had adhered. The cadaver was 36 inches long with a weight of 8 pounds. The external appearance of this cadaver was not of a human type.

The skin appeared smooth and a dark bluish-gray in color. There was no clothing on the body. There were no genitals and no was of determining sex, if any. The nose consisted of two slits, the mouth was a small opening that did not appear to be supported by an articulated law, and there were holes in the position of ears. The cranium was round and large in proportion to the body and the eyes were almond-shaped. The eyes were closed and could not be opened without damaging structures, due to condition of decaying tissue.

Arms and wrists were very thin. The hands displayed a three-digit arrangement without thumb. The arms extended to approximately three inches above the knee. The three fingers extended directly from the wrist, with no palm.

2. Dissection

The body was opened from crotch to chin. A green liquid emerged from the incision. The skin was not backed by fascia, and the bone structure appeared to be a cartilaginous substance of light green-blue color.

Internal organs were observed but their function was unclear. The thoracic and peritoneal cavities communicated and there appeared to be no respiratory system and no stomach. The esophagus was vestigial and dissipated before reaching another organ.

There appeared to be two multi-chambered hearts and it was surmised that body fluid could be pumped rapidly. There was an extensive circulatory system that involved three different types of vein. Some material was extracted from one of these systems and suggested possible waste, leading to the notion that waste mayhave been exuded through the skin.

The fluid removed from the body was analyzed under the microscope and found to be a vegetable substance, chlorophyll-based. It is possible that photosynthesis was the means of obtaining energy.

The cranium was dissected and it was observed that a ridge of cartilage separated the brain into two completely isolated components. The brain was severely deteriorated, but appeared to be extensively fissured and divided into numerous lobes. Because of the deterioration the degree of bilateralism of the two halves could not be determined with any accuracy.

This cadaver exuded an unusually foul odor.

3. Conclusion

This is not a cadaver of a kind previously observed by or known to this pathologist. It appears to be a form of creature utilizing elements of both the animal and vegetable.

That's a whole lotta 'maybe' going on, Mike.

Let's be honest. Strieber's been caught BS'ing before. He's provided zero real evidence any of this is true except 'my uncle knew general Exon' or whatever. I mean, even if he didn't make it up, why should we believe Strieber's uncle or Exon himself. This whole thing feels like that scene in 'Spaceballs:'

tickled-tuesdays-07-28.jpg
 
Yes, i made that caveat when i responded to the invite to talk more on the dead aspect.
The narrative is what it is, and the sources you can take or leave.
But i find it interesting that our own technology is now playing with the same ideas.
 
That seems a bit like magical thinking to me.

I mean, we’re simultaneously thinking the US Military is amazingly competent in keeping the secret and amazingly incompetent in presenting the crash dummy theory.

I see a simpler answer: they don’t know what the hell happened and somebody just thought it might be a good way to shut the UFO nutters up.

Because the US Military is just as incompetent - if not more so - than any other human organization.
\
Gathering you and Burnt have worked in "Black Projects"?
 
The lost art of democratic debate
How To Investigate a Flying Saucer — Central Intelligence Agency
Article: Unexplained Aerial Phenomena | Royal Aviation Museum of Western Canada
What's the point for all these report being kept on file for and will keep open mind on UFOs. Also think good time for a new thread for 'Christmas Season' post by Gene and Chris on
Best Books for young minds on UFOs with a scienice investigation which also co-insides with new Star Wars movie this month.StarWars.com | The Official Star Wars Website
 
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In both cases human technology is in fact the parsimonious answer.


WHAT human technology, exactly, at Roswell?? For three decades plus, every conceivable prosaic possibility has been exhaustively investigated, and NOTHING works. Did you read KDR's latest tome on Roswell? He seems to despair of getting real confirmation of an ET event. But he still firmly rejects MOGUL. And for years prior to the dismissal of MOGUL, that is what ALL the skeptics argued for i.e. there was NO known earthly alternative. Everything else--V1 rocket, jap balloon bomb, jap pows in some contraption, crash dummies even children with progeria--had already been disproven long ago.
Now as for Kecksburg, had it been a soviet Venera probe (leaving aside the issue of a discrepancy in the time of its reentry compared to kecksburg) it would've been revealed as the answer years ago. Why keep antiquated '60s Soviet technology under wraps?

Leaks and witnesses stepped fwd.

Unfortunately nobody in any official capacity at the time, and even they may have leaked false information.

And if alien bodies or alien tech were present the scale of said recoveries would be massive and involve a heck of a lot of personnel running around in big friggin protective suits.

Recovery at the Foster ranch and elsewhere seemed fairly massive. But the soldiers wre told to keep quiet about it.

The idea of an alien craft with bodies crashing to earth would be an event of such enormous magnitude involving so many people and affecting so many more, not to mention the massive scale of what would be required to contain an alien technology or other biological life forms.

Enormous magnitude yes, but the government has been able to keep secrets and it had a strong incentive to keep this one!

There's simply no way you can put a lid on the biggest event in human history and think that like in the movies it can all be neatly hidden in Area 51.

They kept a lid on ULTRA for 30 years even after there was no longer any pressing need to do so. Look at all the thousands of people involved in that, and the manhatten project.

If it had happened not only would we know through leaks left right and centre,

Every time someone privy to ULTRA left the secret place of work, he'd be confronted by a soldier threatening to shoot him if he opened his mouth.
That said, had there been no leaks at all we wouldn't be discussing this now..:)

studying and containment of it would be well visible and our social structure and ideas about air defence would have altered so radically that everyone would know.

Na you can't assume mastery of technology possibly thousands of years ahead could be mastered in a few decades, or we have the resources to mass produce it.


It's not about the govt deciding that they don't want to disrupt social structure - they simply would not have the capacity to pretend like nothing ever happened.

Sure which is why we saw the crash dummies and MOGUL bs. :)

Now why do you think they are so interested in wanting to leak out UFO reality all the time and make it appear like aliens are here?

Lol they don't.
 
I mean, we’re simultaneously thinking the US Military is amazingly competent in keeping the secret and amazingly incompetent in presenting the crash dummy theory.

Well it has been argued that the crash dummy explanation didn't require dummies in '47 but subsequent sightings of them, which came to be associated with Roswell by means of "time compression." Of course I don't buy it but....

I see a simpler answer: they don’t know what the hell happened and somebody just thought it might be a good way to shut the UFO nutters up.

They know very well what happened as military personnel confiscated all the material. What happened clearly wasn't prosaic or the answer almost certainly would've been found or revealed, decades ago.

Because the US Military is just as incompetent - if not more so - than any other human organization.

It has proven very competent in winning wars (at least conventional wars, in '91 it destroyed over 3,000 Iraqi tanks while losing about 6, all to mines). But it is also competent in keeping vital secrets such as ULTRA.
 
WHAT human technology, exactly, at Roswell?? For three decades plus, every conceivable prosaic possibility has been exhaustively investigated, and NOTHING works. Did you read KDR's latest tome on Roswell? He seems to despair of getting real confirmation of an ET event. But he still firmly rejects MOGUL. And for years prior to the dismissal of MOGUL, that is what ALL the skeptics argued for i.e. there was NO known earthly alternative. Everything else--V1 rocket, jap balloon bomb, jap pows in some contraption, crash dummies even children with progeria--had already been disproven long ago.
Now as for Kecksburg, had it been a soviet Venera probe (leaving aside the issue of a discrepancy in the time of its reentry compared to kecksburg) it would've been revealed as the answer years ago. Why keep antiquated '60s Soviet technology under wraps?



Unfortunately nobody in any official capacity at the time, and even they may have leaked false information.



Recovery at the Foster ranch and elsewhere seemed fairly massive. But the soldiers wre told to keep quiet about it.



Enormous magnitude yes, but the government has been able to keep secrets and it had a strong incentive to keep this one!



They kept a lid on ULTRA for 30 years even after there was no longer any pressing need to do so. Look at all the thousands of people involved in that, and the manhatten project.



Every time someone privy to ULTRA left the secret place of work, he'd be confronted by a soldier threatening to shoot him if he opened his mouth.
That said, had there been no leaks at all we wouldn't be discussing this now..:)



Na you can't assume mastery of technology possibly thousands of years ahead could be mastered in a few decades, or we have the resources to mass produce it.




Sure which is why we saw the crash dummies and MOGUL bs. :)



Lol they don't.
Give me one tangible non-anecdotal piece of evidence it wasn’t a balloon.
 
Well it has been argued that the crash dummy explanation didn't require dummies in '47 but subsequent sightings of them, which came to be associated with Roswell by means of "time compression." Of course I don't buy it but....



They know very well what happened as military personnel confiscated all the material. What happened clearly wasn't prosaic or the answer almost certainly would've been found or revealed, decades ago.

My argument is simple. Either the crap they confiscated was their own crap, or some other human crap, or something ‘alien.’

If it was the latter, they likely didn’t know what to do with it, and still don’t.

Odds are > 90% in my estimation that it was one of the former explanations. Either way it doesn’t matter because we’ll never know.

But it’s a giant piece of cognitive dissonance to think they’re fantastic at covering things up yet give very stupid cover stories at the same time. That just makes no sense to me.


It has proven very competent in winning wars (at least conventional wars, in '91 it destroyed over 3,000 Iraqi tanks while losing about 6, all to mines). But it is also competent in keeping vital secrets such as ULTRA.

I would argue it’s spent trillions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of human lives getting good at throwing chunks of metal at human beings, and somehow still bumbled Vietnam, GWII, securing Iraq, etc.

I don’t want to get into a political debate, but you’re talking about the total economic output of a G7 nation basically fooling around on a global scale.

I’m no military strategist, but I am not in awe of your military industrial complex. And I still argue that it failed keeping the nuclear weapons tech secret, failed at keeping MK-Ultra secret, failed at keeping paper clip secret, even failed at keeping its invasion plans of Canada secret. To be clear, I’m talking about the military-industrial complex writ large, not individual units or people who are all trying to do the best thing they can.

Individual humans can be pretty smart. Groups of us are pretty dumb. The bigger we get, the dumber we seem to act.

And sorry, it doesn’t get the best and brightest, either.
 
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