The Roswell Slides Steal the Show!

[Trajanus]

Throw a couple bald little folk in there, and the story gets strange.

Even stranger.

Did the Air Force come out in '97 and directly say crash test dummies were included in this failed project Mogul? I seem to recall hearing that, not sure if it was from military spokesman.

Yes that's true. I once posted on this in my blog:

Starman's Future Visions: Odd Old Theory

 

[Stagger Lee]

Thanks for the link Trajanus. It was good to see Stan chime in at the "comments"- If the crash there had been anything Cold War related, one would think it safe to publicly release in '97. With only a passing interest back then, I recall thinking the test dummy an absurd explanation to the reports of recovered bodies. In a sense, wouldn't that be admission that bodies were "seen" during the recovery?

 

[manxman]

Is that your blog Trajanus, its quite good, its a good idea to be able to publish your thoughts with the 'noise' the internet creates

 

[Burnt State]

Nonsense, Burnt. There was obviously a top-down effort all along, enforced by: a) radical compartmentalization of access to information by people inside the military and other gov't agencies and b) investments in supporting and directing disinformation agents to confound whatever information was leaked or, usually, tracked down by outside civilian
investigators. That's how we got the MJ12 documents in the corrupted form we did. A researcher of ufo history has to be wilfully blind not to see this. I really wonder why you so badly want all of this not to be true.

Or that's just what they want you to believe. The UFO mythos has served and continues to serve as deflection for experimentation in new systems of flight and continued human attempts to claim forceful superiority in the skies.

I thnk the other element that merits discussion, in this era of supposed dissemination of UFO documents from many governments, is the nature of the social context. 1930's/40's American paranoia that reached deep into the cold war decades to come, along with that desire for exceptionalism, has a lot to do with how the PTB have handled communicating the UFO phenomenon to the populous and all that MIB jazz.

Now that the cold war is over, information, with restrictions of course, can be obtained in such a revealing manner that it has allowed Redfern to publish an unending litany of gov't weird actions in the pursuit of social control. So perhaps there was once a muzzle placed on the dialogue for many different reasons but now UFO's are passé and just things that billionaires play around with.

It seems to me that now that everyone has agreed that they have absolutely no real clue what UFO's are, that we are helpless when it comes to interacting with them and that they haven't done much more that observe, nobody is really that much interested in them anymore.

Given that ufology continues to exist in a state of confusion it seems that the objectives of obfuscation for self-serving purposes were achieved long ago. Now we just continue to babble on about Roswell and MJ12 - talk about a distraction with very little traction. What, if anything, has been learned from either? It's all smoke and mirrors and campfire stories.

 

[Constance]

So you have said, repeatedly, and continue to say. Sorry, Burnt, but I don't find your claims and 'explanations' persuasive. Social control? Of course. America's grasping for military and economic dominance on the planet? Without a doubt. But neither of those motivations rule out the simultaneous historical reality of 'trufos' around the planet since WWII. It is most certainly not time for citizen researchers to abandon ufo research. There's plenty of "traction."

 

[Burnt State]

So you have said, repeatedly, and continue to say. Sorry, Burnt, but I don't find your claims and 'explanations' persuasive. Social control? Of course. America's grasping for military and economic dominance on the planet? Without a doubt. But neither of those motivations rule out the simultaneous historical reality of 'trufos' around the planet since WWII. It is most certainly not time for citizen researchers to abandon ufo research. There's plenty of "traction."

Perhaps you didn't read that carefully enough. I said nothing about dismissing the phenomenon as a whole. But as far as traction? Where? What? We've learned next to nothing about any of it.

 

[Constance]

That's how you see it. It's not the way I see it after reading ufo research and history steadily for the last 17 years. I'm not going to try to convince you, though. I doubt that I or anyone could.

 

[Burnt State]

It's not really a very startling position so much as a common estimate of the situation, which is we still know next to nothing about who, what or why. We have many where's and when's with very little agreement on how many. Most of what we have is self-invented misdirection, including hoaxes and our certainties based on wobbly or unconfirmed evidence.

Core cases would help to lean the discussion and stop the distraction of infinite speculation.

 

[manxman]

I dont need to know which of the 1000s of oddity's in the 100s of vids ive watched, pictures ive looked at, or case studies ive read were alien technology, i dont need the final confirmation, it would be great, but i already know this planet has been visited by et tech.

 

[Burnt State]

I dont need to know which of the 1000s of oddity's in the 100s of vids ive watched, pictures ive looked at, or case studies ive read were alien technology, i dont need the final confirmation, it would be great, but i already know this planet has been visited by et tech.

How do you know it's alien - because if the 100's of low res bad vids of birds, specks of dust and insects or planes? What confirms it for you - the fact that there are so many bad videos, so many hoaxes, so many uncertainties?

 

[Flatwoods]

Did the Air Force come out in '97 and directly say crash test dummies were included in this failed project Mogul? I seem to recall hearing that, not sure if it was from military spokesman.

No, the Air Force never said that. The 97 report was titled Roswell Report: Case Closed, and was a follow-up to the 1995 report in which they produced the Mogul explanation.

The part of the report involving crash test dummies is probably the most incorrectly quoted and poorly understood documents in all of ufology. It is misinterpreted by nearly all UFO investigators, authors, and bloggers - including the hosts of The Paracast.

What the report says is simple: mainly that during the 1950's and 1960's were numerous crashes of experimental aircraft, high-altitude NASA experiments using anthropomorphic dummies, and emergency rescue drills performed by the U.S. military. Lots of witnesses to those activities, and lots of possibility for mis-interpretation and rumors to spread, so that once the Roswell incident re-surfaced in 1978, people started to confabulate memories of accidents and crash test dummies with the Roswell legend.

Ufologists hate this explanation because it attempts to reconcile reports of alien bodies with an inconvenient fact: that the original Roswell incident involves ZERO REPORTS OF ALIEN BODIES. Refer to the original source material: none of the firsthand witnesses to the Roswell incident mentions aliens. This is also explained in Roswell Report: Case Closed. Stories of alien bodies only show up decades later, and they are second-hand at best with zero corroborating evidence.

Of course, anyone who studies Ufology knows that earlier reports of alien bodies did exist, but had nothing to do with Roswell. The earliest of these is the Frank Scully account of the Aztec, NM crash. There is also the 1953 Kingman, Arizona story(a favorite of mine). Neither of these were mentioned in the Roswell Report, and my explanation for this is simple: they didn't know about them. The Aztec and Kingman crashes were still rather obscure at that time, and I doubt the Air Force had any Ufologists working for them in 1997.

Still, I believe the Roswell Report is an honest effort by the US Air Force to explain the mythology surrounding an event that they themselves were never even involved with, since the Roswell incident occurred before the Air Force had even been established. I also grind my teeth a bit when I hear it criticized by supposed UFO experts who, by misquoting the report, give me the impression that they never even read the damn thing.

 

[Flatwoods]

Here is a link to the press conference. Pay close attention to what is said at the 2:00 minute mark and the 8:00 minute mark.

 

[Flatwoods]

Part 2

 

[Trajanus]

What the report says is simple: mainly that during the 1950's and 1960's were numerous crashes of experimental aircraft, high-altitude NASA experiments using anthropomorphic dummies, and emergency rescue drills performed by the U.S. military. Lots of witnesses to those activities, and lots of possibility for mis-interpretation and rumors to spread, so that once the Roswell incident re-surfaced in 1978, people started to confabulate memories of accidents and crash test dummies with the Roswell legend.

Barely plausible. What evidence is there that those reported to have seen bodies witnessed test dummies? When did Dwyer see them?

Ufologists hate this explanation because it attempts to reconcile reports of alien bodies with an inconvenient fact: that the original Roswell incident involves ZERO REPORTS OF ALIEN BODIES. Refer to the original source material: none of the firsthand witnesses to the Roswell incident mentions aliens. This is also explained in Roswell Report: Case Closed. Stories of alien bodies only show up decades later, and they are second-hand at best with zero corroborating evidence.

But there were several such witnesses. Did they all see test dummies and all later confabulate?

Of course, anyone who studies Ufology knows that earlier reports of alien bodies did exist, but had nothing to do with Roswell. The earliest of these is the Frank Scully account of the Aztec, NM crash. There is also the 1953 Kingman, Arizona story(a favorite of mine). Neither of these were mentioned in the Roswell Report, and my explanation for this is simple: they didn't know about them. The Aztec and Kingman crashes were still rather obscure at that time, and I doubt the Air Force had any Ufologists working for them in 1997.

Na, they were mentioned in Good's Above Top Secret, which came out well before '97.

Still, I believe the Roswell Report is an honest effort by the US Air Force to explain the mythology surrounding an event that they themselves were never even involved with, since the Roswell incident occurred before the Air Force had even been established.

So there was no continuity between the Army Air Force and the Air Force? It's highly naive to regard the report as honest. As KDR and others have shown, mogul has been blown out of the water.

 

[uforadio]

There is a lot about this - especially behind the scenes and on private lists.
Additionally flame wars are going on for a few months over different blogs.

One summary and 3rd party evaluation (regarding public domain) that should be added to the chronology is available on Frank's blog:
New Details of Alleged Roswell Alien Slides/Photos Revealed

You can find out who Larry is, if you spend some research time.

 

[Trajanus]

Thanks for the link Trajanus. It was good to see Stan chime in at the "comments"-

And David Rudiak too--great researcher.

If the crash there had been anything Cold War related, one would think it safe to publicly release in '97.

Of course. In fact mogul balloons weren't secret in '47 even if the mission was.

 

[Flatwoods]

But there were several such witnesses. Did they all see test dummies and all later confabulate?

No there weren't. No one reported seeing any bodies at all in the 1947 incident. Read the news reports from The Roswell Daily record and other newspapers from that week. Not one mention of bodies at all.

The only first-hand witness reports surfaced decades later, but they've all been discredited. All that's left is second-hand testimony with no corroborating evidence - unless you consider the Walter Haut deathbed confession, which I consider to be unreliable because it has all the red flags of a hoax.

You are correct, however to point out that none of the later alien body stories can be linked to a plastic dummy sighting. I didn't say the dummy theory was correct, just that it's an honest attempt to explain the unexplainable. And that's the problem - when you trace the Roswell case back to it's original source, you can finally see the facts vs. the assumptions and conjecture made by imaginative investigators in the decades since. Once that happens, the Roswell story begins to fall apart like tinfoil.

 

[Frank Stalter]

The only first-hand witness reports surfaced decades later, but they've all been discredited. All that's left is second-hand testimony with no corroborating evidence - unless you consider the Walter Haut deathbed confession, which I consider to be unreliable because it has all the red flags of a hoax.

???????

Your claim is lacking in specifics. Seems more than a little hypocritical to make such a claim and offer nothing in the way of support for it.

 

[Flatwoods]

???????


Your claim is lacking in specifics. Seems more than a little hypocritical to make such a claim and offer nothing in the way of support for it

Here's a link that raises plenty of doubts about the Haut affidavit: Haut Questions

As you can see, Haut didn't even write the affidavit himself. And besides... it doesn't lead anywhere. Nothing can verified from it, and for me that's a big red flag.

Another supposed testimony from Roswell is the well-known Barney Barnett story, in which the civil engineer reported seeing bodies at a second crash site not far from the Roswell site. It's one of my favorite Roswell stories. Barnett also reportedly said a group of archeology students from the University of Pennsylvania also came upon the scene and saw the bodies...before the Army showed up and chased them away.

Unfortunately, facts are facts, and in this case the Barnett story is entirely second-hand, told by his relatives and wasn't discovered by investigators until the late 1970's - nearly a decade after Barney Barnett died. An attempt to locate students or faculty from the archeological team also came empty, and there's never been any corroborating for anything in Barnett's tale which, as I stated before, is simply hearsay. Even Kevin Randle and Don Schmidtt consider the story lacking in credibility. But if someone wants to investigate further, I say go for it.

Like I said before, I enjoy crash-retrieval cases and would encourage anyone to look for more evidence. I do find it intriguing that the alleged " Roswell Slides" came from the home of a geologist who worked in the region during the same time period as the Roswell crash. What if the Barnett tale was re-told in error, and the alleged team of archeologists were in fact a geological survey team? That would be a very, very intriguing link, but again, it's just speculation until the slides are released and a provable link can be established. I know the difference between facts and speculation, and I prefer to believe in facts.

 

[Trajanus]

All that's left is second-hand testimony with no corroborating evidence

I agree with KDR's dismissal of Anderson, Dennis and Kaufmann, but IMO he may have been hasty in "cutting Ragsdale loose." Old Jim succumbed to the temptation to make $ and embellished his account. He was only human; his original story could've been true. Btw KDR also interviewed the old archeologist who was at the impact site.

You are correct, however to point out that none of the later alien body stories can be linked to a plastic dummy sighting. I didn't say the dummy theory was correct, just that it's an honest attempt to explain the unexplainable.

It shows the alien body stories were taken seriously enough to warrant an attempt to explain them away, but the effort sure was faulty, just like mogul....

And that's the problem - when you trace the Roswell case back to it's original source, you can finally see the facts vs. the assumptions and conjecture made by imaginative investigators in the decades since.

Na, just because publicly released information was very limited initially doesn't mean additional data can't be true. And while we're usually limited (regarding bodies) to second/third hand testimony, the quality appears OK and the variety of sources is impressive. Some witnesses were phony but while investigators were sometimes taken in, reports didn't stem from their imagination.

Once that happens, the Roswell story begins to fall apart like tinfoil.

Not according to KDR, Schmitt, Rudiak and others who've investigated it more than anyone else--save for gov't insiders of course.