The Roswell Slides Steal the Show!

[Burnt State]

Thinking 'alien' is beyond us and so our own language tries to name what we are seeing and experiencing, but it is so slippery this UFO phenomenon. Is calling it a 'deception' a limiting human concept? I think so. It's motives and manner are simply beyond us, and any craft we can define and describe with certainty is most likely one of ours.

The real UFO is at once a sudden and hidden thing, leaving in its wake an incredible disruption in the lives of those who witnessed it. That's the other line of inquiry to pursue - the effects. But then maybe the effects matter not, and we still can not fathom the cause. Is it a dead end? Is that why trainedO took a sabbatical? Is knowing this thing just too impossible for our own human faculties? Our language, senses, perceptual capacity, memory - all go haywire in the face of the alien and craft. It's a total disruption to both our neural net and sense of well being. Is it a distraction of some sort?

Maybe, like Hamlet we need to also use misdirection in order to find direction out? Though all that's got us so far is a hot mess in the whole body of Ufology and a gravestone at Roswell about some unknown craft that strewed debris around once upon a time, so now we just think about stuff like outer space, sitting still down under the stars with all the other cats.

 

[mike]

Even so deception as a concept can still be valid.

For example and for the sake of argument, the Govt or some compartment of it knows something about the phenomena.
Something that in their estimation and for a myriad of possible motives they dont think the general public should know.

They may deploy deception as a means of keeping that secret.

And i agree about thinking Alien, none the less deception is widely used by other species here on earth to acheive their goals. Its likely its a common expression of life forms as a general principle

Star Treks prime directive sometimes is stretched a little by using deception.

Screen memories as sometimes reported might be an example of deception, though the motive in that case presents itself as a number of possibilitys

Is it to protect their identity, or to protect the abductees fragile world view and mental state.

If we accept the alleged evidence they really are here, but also that they are elusive rather than white house lawn. what might the motive be.

 

[Trajanus]

I fully realize there were allegations that Brazel's testimony was coerced; some reports say he may have been in Army custody for up to several days. However, Brazel himself never recanted the interview, and in fact he refused to discuss the topic ever again.

Just like all other witnesses down to 1978 or later. Brazel died long before then, in '63 (though he told his son about it). They were all silenced, and, as Edwards noted in his '67 book, they still weren't talking.

So all we are left with is his on-the-record testimony, which is an original document and in my opinion carries considerdable weight.

Not according to KDR and other researchers, who saw it for what it was long ago part of the coverup.

 

[SRL+]

Now let's see them pix!!!

 

[Flatwoods]

Not according to KDR and other researchers, who saw it for what it was long ago part of the coverup.

Last time I checked, Kevin Randle had second-hand eyewitness account of a firefighter who saw alien bodies, one that Kevin strongly supports. It's an interesting story but, unfortunately it's still a second-hand account and leads nowhere.

 

[Trajanus]

Last time I checked, Kevin Randle had second-hand eyewitness account of a firefighter who saw alien bodies, one that Kevin strongly supports. It's an interesting story but, unfortunately it's still a second-hand account and leads nowhere.

In fact there were several such accounts, and not necessarily all second hand. I already mentioned an old archeologist, and Ragsdale, whose initial account may have been accurate albeit later embellished.

 

[Flatwoods]

In fact there were several such accounts, and not necessarily all second hand. I already mentioned an old archeologist, and Ragsdale, whose initial account may have been accurate albeit later embellished.

I'm interested in hearing more about the old archaeologist. Do you have a link, or know where I can learn more about it?

 

[Sentry]

Another possible alien autopsy slide leak.

This one looks suspect due to the "plastic" watchband, but we have to be patient and wait until all the evidence is presented.

 

[manxman]

We are what we eat.


Obviously Americans dont eat skinny people.


[ive been waiting days for the opportunity to post that dig here]

 

[Burnt State]

Even so deception as a concept can still be valid.
...
They may deploy deception as a means of keeping that secret.
...
If we accept the alleged evidence they really are here, but also that they are elusive rather than white house lawn. what might the motive be.

The motive seems to be tied more to revealing an alternative location than outer space for their point of origin, something that might be much closer to home. Increasingly it seems that the distraction and the deflection practices may be about keeping us looking up at the sky, or so the mantra goes. In fact the whole "get off planet" meme may just be a planted discourse by a bunch of pacifists who wish we would hurry up and get on with getting us humans out of here so they can go back to living on the good, green earth without all us noisy negativists around messing up someone else's habitat.

The idea of us being someone else's property might not be accurate at all, just a latent fear in the face of awesome technology, or profound biological abilities. Perhaps it just goes against their nature to cause us any harm at all. An interesting feature of many abduction narratives is the whole, 'i'm not here to hurt you,' theme, along with a real peaceful indifference as well as outright meanness and playfulness. These might all simpy be dream manifestations, just us guessing at what the alien is like according to what The Outer Limits and Twilight Zone taught us. But there is a definite distance between us that makes it highly difficult to begin to make it tangible.

If anything, instead of trying to get a handle on it the only concrete thing we've invented are the mythologies, hoaxes, lies, suppositions and fears about it. We have created the cult of ufology instead of the science of it. Oh shit, now I'm starting to sound like Paul Kimball.

 

[Trajanus]

I'm interested in hearing more about the old archaeologist. Do you have a link, or know where I can learn more about it?

At first the name escaped me--W. Curry Holden, mentioned in KDR's books. By the time KDR interviewed him, quite some time ago, he was very old and I don't recall offhand if he mentioned bodies specifically. But he was a first hand witness for the impact site as opposed to the debris field or Foster ranch.

The motive seems to be tied more to revealing an alternative location than outer space for their point of origin...

In fact the phenomenon practically forces us to conclude it's from outer space. It's not just the contactee claims("Venusians"), Fast Walkers and things like the Hill map. Almost invariably, they reenter their UFOs and go up.

 

[Sub-light]

Well, I don't think there is much I can add to all this (I'm pretty new here btw) but, the "old slides" thing brings something to mind. For a long time I have wondered why so so so much focus is always on Roswell. To me regarding the Summer of 1947, Roswell is a side dish. The real meat is all the other reports and sightings that happened that summer. Not to say Roswell is unimportant but the real proof that "the flying saucers were real" (sorry couldn't resist) was that there were so many extremely consistent reports.
Now here's my point. Sitting in thousands of attics across the country could be all kinds of such "proof" in the form of letters, photos, clippings memos and maybe even documents-not about Roswell- but about all the other sightings and in counters that may had occurred that summer. We harp so much on the military and government involvement but we're forgetting that hundreds of other people dealt with this phenomenon as well. Most of these people are most likely dead or dying but many of them leave their things behind and nobody goes through grandpas chest looking for "flying disc" evidence and even if they found it , would they even know what it was? There's your beef.

 

[Burnt State]

Well, I don't think there is much I can add to all this (I'm pretty new here btw) but, the "old slides" thing brings something to mind. For a long time I have wondered why so so so much focus is always on Roswell. To me regarding the Summer of 1947, Roswell is a side dish. The real meat is all the other reports and sightings that happened that summer. Not to say Roswell is unimportant but the real proof that "the flying saucers were real" (sorry couldn't resist) was that there were so many extremely consistent reports.
Now here's my point. Sitting in thousands of attics across the country could be all kinds of such "proof" in the form of letters, photos, clippings memos and maybe even documents-not about Roswell- but about all the other sightings and in counters that may had occurred that summer. We harp so much on the military and government involvement but we're forgetting that hundreds of other people dealt with this phenomenon as well. Most of these people are most likely dead or dying but many of them leave their things behind and nobody goes through grandpas chest looking for "flying disc" evidence and even if they found it , would they even know what it was? There's your beef.

Wasn't it Vallee or was it Aubeck who was going on about the forgotten manuscripts in the castle attic that are the interesting depositories of ufo documentation yet to be discovered, and probably will not? I think it was Aubeck last he was on the Paracast

 

[Bergen]

update A Different Perspective

 

[SRL+]

For now, I’m going with the late Jim Moseley’s assessment in the Mogul Balloon theory as opposed to the interplanetary theory, and this is why:

At 41:00 minutes into this segment of the Paracast dated: 1/22/12 Jim shares his thoughts in which amongst other things include Bessie Brazel.

 

[Flatwoods]

For now, I’m going with the late Jim Moseley’s assessment in the Mogul Balloon theory as opposed to the interplanetary theory, and this is why:

At 41:00 minutes into this segment of the Paracast dated: 1/22/12 Jim shares his thoughts in which amongst other things include Bessie Brazel.

Note how Bessie Brazel's account of the pastel flower designs on the debris is linked to the construction material used for the Mogul radar reflectors. For me, the flower tape testimony has always been more than a nail in the coffin of the Roswell story. More like a large, iron spike through the heart of it.

 

[SRL+]

the flower tape testimony has always been more than a nail in the coffin of the Roswell story. More like a large, iron spike through the heart of it.

Yeah, that’s part of the problem, as it should have been a wooden stake.

 

[Sub-light]

Note how Bessie Brazel's account of the pastel flower designs on the debris is linked to the construction material used for the Mogul radar reflectors. For me, the flower tape testimony has always been more than a nail in the coffin of the Roswell story. More like a large, iron spike through the heart of it.

Doesn't matter to me anyway. Like I say the "disc" wave is the real story here and for decades it's been overshadowed by Roswell. What is important about Roswell though, is that the the Roswell AAF issued that press release which at vary least shows that the Air Force acknowledged the Disc Phenomenon. And the another interesting thing is the AAF reaction. It at least means that the thought of a Disc crash made a high ranking General get involved.
Look Roswell is an interesting story but weather or not we were visited by ET scout ships in 1947 doesn't henge on it. I saw a Roswell treatment on some cable channel once that acted as though discrediting Roswell discredits the whole Flying Saucer story! Hogwash!

 

[Flatwoods]

Doesn't matter to me anyway. Like I say the "disc" wave is the real story here and for decades it's been overshadowed by Roswell. What is important about Roswell though, is that the the Roswell AAF issued that press release which at vary least shows that the Air Force acknowledged the Disc Phenomenon. And the another interesting thing is the AAF reaction. It at least means that the thought of a Disc crash made a high ranking General get involved.
Look Roswell is an interesting story but weather or not we were visited by ET scout ships in 1947 doesn't henge on it. I saw a Roswell treatment on some cable channel once that acted as though discrediting Roswell discredits the whole Flying Saucer story! Hogwash!

I want to add that in all the heated discussions over the Mogul explanation, people forget; Roswell isn't the only UFO recovery story. Plenty of other intriguing tales out there, whether it's Aztec, Del Rio, Kecksburg, and there's some interesting reports from Nevada as well. I've always wanted to know more about the Kingman, AZ case too.

When it comes to UFO crashes, there's plenty of smoke, but most people only look to Roswell for the fire. Some say that Roswell is the origin of all these stories, but I disagree.

 

[Trajanus]

Note how Bessie Brazel's account of the pastel flower designs on the debris is linked to the construction material used for the Mogul radar reflectors. For me, the flower tape testimony has always been more than a nail in the coffin of the Roswell story. More like a large, iron spike through the heart of it.

Lol, available documentation has blown mogul out of the water. You should see KDR's blog, where the pro-mogul people i.e. the best informed skeptics, were effectively silenced on that one. As has been noted already, NYU #4 was cancelled, and the others are accounted for i.e. they came down someplace besides the Foster ranch. The balloons of #4 may have been released but not radar reflectors. It just can't account for the plethora of strange debris with properties exotic enough to stump the base intelligence officer and the others (not that mogul could even if the whole array did come down there...).
As for other crash reports, among those you listed, only Kecksburg seems credible. The others appear to be based on single witness testimony, sometimes anonymous. They aren't half as well supported as Roswell.
Sub-light, if a case with as much testimony as Roswell --including high quality like Marcel sr and jr--were ever debunked, IMHO that would cast serious doubt on any and all UFO reports hence the phenomenon as a whole. Of course that hasn't happened, but the point is, it's a pivotal case.