There will be no Disclosure

[Facius_Cardan]

Belief in holy joe has been waning in part precisely because there's no empirical basis

I don't see a waning of belief in "holy joe". What we're seeing is a growing shift of believers from older christian denominations towards more recent religious sects and groups. We must also add that many christians are turning to islam (the fastest growing religion nowadays) and other far-eastern religions (buddhism, for instance). Also, does believing in extraterrestrial visitations imply the abandonment of religious faiths? Not for many people. The troubling fact is that the ET belief became a religion of its own for many people and its becoming harder, if not impossible, to discuss the UFO theme seriously and rationally with such persons (its like debating the existence of God with a christian). For a belief that has, in your words, an "empirical basis" many of their proponents seem to have abandoned all empirism in favor of blind, unshakable faith.

I don't think you're well enough informed.

You've used this type of sentence many times in this forum, implying that those who don't believe in the ETH aren't well informed enough. Unless you have access to data unavailable to the rest of us here, what evidence is there then to support your beliefs with such vehemence?

 

[Trajanus]

I don't see a waning of belief in "holy joe". What we're seeing is a growing shift of believers from older christian denominations towards more recent religious sects and groups.

Yep, and the key difference is that the growing denominations have fewer commitments, like celibacy or regular attendance, lol. Even among believers, fewer and fewer consider the mumbo jumbo worthy of much sacrifice. Essentially the changes can be called creeping atheism. And out and out nonbelief is gaining too.

We must also add that many christians are turning to islam (the fastest growing religion nowadays) and other far-eastern religions (buddhism, for instance).

I think inevitably, increasing materialism and secularism will affect all faiths.

Also, does believing in extraterrestrial visitations imply the abandonment of religious faiths? Not for many people. The troubling fact is that the ET belief became a religion of its own for many people..

No I wouldn't say many.

and its becoming harder, if not impossible, to discuss the UFO theme seriously and rationally with such persons (its like debating the existence of God with a christian). For a belief that has, in your words, an "empirical basis" many of their proponents seem to have abandoned all empirism in favor of blind, unshakable faith.

They're just a fringe element.

You've used this type of sentence many times in this forum, implying that those who don't believe in the ETH aren't well informed enough. Unless you have access to data unavailable to the rest of us here, what evidence is there then to support your beliefs with such vehemence?

I was alluding to claims that there is "no evidence" for ETs, except witness testimony--flies in the face of much other evidence.

 

[PararealitySaint]

I was alluding to claims that there is "no evidence" for ETs, except witness testimony--flies in the face of much other evidence.

No, he was postulating for the sake of nothing better to do because don't you know, anyone who actually has "faith" in something is stupid and not ready to be enlightened by the all knowing Professor Plum. I mean, wouldn't it be oh so nice if everything was wrapped up perfectly tight in an agenda full of silver space craft with superior out-world beings who could teach us imbecilic "one up apes" just what it means to become the next herd animal?

Considering the fact that "empirical" data challenges everything else, we stupid humans need to listen to the Barbara Marciniaks of the world, because only they know which are the good medical testing, fear inducing, hybrid forming ancient ones and which are the bad karma directive seeking probers ....

But wait! Let's not forget the fun fun fun we all will have when they teach us how our evil warring ways are "all wrong" and instead show us (with all their superior and inventive intellect) the means by which we too can travel around the galaxy and use others for our own lusts and malevolent purposes.

Oh joy to the world!

 

[tyder001]

One thing I have learned. I don't have to win every argument to be right. I still say and will continue to say until it's proven. There is NO, None, Nada,Zero evidence for spacemen/women visiting earth. Lights in the sky don't "prove" it. They should be researched. Radar tracings don't prove it. They should be looked at. Being butt-f...ed doesn't prove it. Matter of fact that (if true) really does sound more demonic than alien. There is no material no landing pads no nothing that proves life from Outer Space. So, to come on here and get mad and start a rant on the belief of others in eternal life (true or not true) while acting as if a few lights and eye witness reports prove your case is silly at best. I will ask one more time. Please show me the evidence you keep talking about Trajanus. I'm not being rude. Please don't say "people saw it." I understand that and for a personal beleif that is quite enough. But, you are saying that the "evidence" is there and can't be reasonalby disputed.

Look let me say it this way. I have had "personal" experiences that cause me to belive in God and life after death and reincarnation. However, as Angel and Trained and others have pointed out (and I agree) it does NOT constitue proof to the world in general or the world of science in particular. I don't really need it (though it would be cool) but that's just how it is.

However, you have made certain statements that there is scientifc proof of alien visatation on this planet. I'm ready to believe. I even Want to believe. I really, really do. It would be super cool and I'd even hitch a ride on their starship if they would let me. All, I ask is give me just one link or place that I can go and actually "see" this truth for my own eyes. Just one!

Peace. and good look and I will keep watching the night sky in hope.

 

[trainedobserver]

What is the difference between a creator god and an alien bio-engineer?

If some shining being were to appear to us, stepping down from a UFO or a ladder from heaven and claimed to be our creators, owners, and caretakers, should we believe them and submit? Should we believe them after they've demonstrated their godhood or alien superiority and worship, obey, or otherwise recognize their alleged authority over us?

I don't think so because I see no difference between our superstitious ancestors who were impressed and accepted the reality of what they were told and the people who were similarly impressed by Adamski, Van Tassel, Reed/Rutter, Astar Command, and other such nonsense.

I've come to believe that throughout history true believers in gods and aliens have been manipulated by human agencies whose motivations do not reflect those expressed in the messages, teachings, and activities of the true believers themselves.

 

[tyder001]

Can't and don't agree with all of it but it has a beat and you can dance to it. Bout as good an explanation as any round here I guess.

 

[PararealitySaint]

What is the difference between a creator god and an alien bio-engineer?

In this case I believe its the justification of human willpower versus a divine intervention for the sake of a base lack of spiritual understanding.

In the case of a "bio-engineer" you have a soluble "scientific" solution to life's semi-mystery (perhaps) but you have no justifiable nor logical answer for who created the bio-engineer to have made what was created in the first place.

No one has the answer of how it all came to be....the idea that "it has always been" here is nothing more than a lack of this understanding, and a need to have a semblance of humanistic-ally driven and sorry to say, quite limited "control" over that which is impossible to answer.

A "deity" holds an answer and "faith" in that deity supports a realistic meaning to any other impossibility out there, therefore superstition becomes irrelevant to any of faith, but not to those limited to seeing only as far as their space craft takes them.

When I say that I believe that Jesus Christ walked this earth some 2000 years ago, and that he allowed himself to be crucified so that I might be saved from my human fleshly sins, it isn't based on any justification for my existence or meaning, but instead a realization that a "deity" made himself known to us all, allowed for a testament to his word to grow over 5000 years without so much as one iota of change (interpretation differences notwithstanding), and according to his words, will come again one day for us all.

I pray this at least presents a humble "Christian's" meaning to the difference you ask. Please do not take this as my saying this is the only answer to your question, nor is it meant for me to force anything upon anyone who reads what I write here.

It's only meant as another way within the vast choices every human son and daughter is given. In my choice I do not have to worry about what will happen to me when I pass on from this world. In my choice I am able to relate with and attain a spiritual unity with who I believe is the Creator of all there is, alien, giant, Bigfoot and all.

Good question my friend, and I am glad to see there are those out there who wish to actually have a discussion instead of just play the "jibe/innuendo" game all day.:

 

[tyder001]

Back when I was a church goer I found that reformed alcoholics were the most firey and "mad at the devil" types out there. They would be just as extreme in their religion as they were in their "sin" as it were. Then when I kind of got into more of a non religious enviroment I found that the ex Christians made the most angry and committed atheist. They brought all the passion of their religion to their "new" worldview that they had when they were in church.

Just a couple of observations.

 

[Facius_Cardan]

Then when I kind of got into more of a non religious enviroment I found that the ex Christians made the most angry and committed atheist. They brought all the passion of their religion to their "new" worldview that they had when they were in church.

Dealing with a feeling as complex as anger is always a difficult thing to do. Former christians often make quite rabid disbelievers, but you can frequently read that feeling as an insatisfaction, a disappointment with their past being projected as anger towards that which they formerly embraced as being true. It's a bad thing when our sentiments end up clouding our ability to judge and discern situations.

 

[tyder001]

Yeah, we all are just trying to make sense out of the journery and generalaties (like my spelling) are always wrong to some extent.

 

[trainedobserver]

In this case I believe its the justification of human willpower versus a divine intervention for the sake of a base lack of spiritual understanding.

What on earth does that mean? That we better toe the line for godhood claimants because they know something we don't? How is that different from a alien bio-engineer who would obviously know plenty that we don't?

In the case of a "bio-engineer" you have a soluble "scientific" solution to life's semi-mystery (perhaps) but you have no justifiable nor logical answer for who created the bio-engineer to have made what was created in the first place.

So to solve this problem we should assume it is a divine being? I don't think so

A "deity" holds an answer and "faith" in that deity supports a realistic meaning to any other impossibility out there, therefore superstition becomes irrelevant to any of faith, but not to those limited to seeing only as far as their space craft takes them.

.

Which deity? How do you tell which one is the right one? Can you do due diligence in giving the over 3000 deities that humanity has worshiped their chance?

I pray this at least presents a humble "Christian's" meaning to the difference you ask.

You make little or no sense I'm afraid.

 

[Trajanus]

One thing I have learned. I don't have to win every argument to be right. I still say and will continue to say until it's proven. There is NO, None, Nada,Zero evidence for spacemen/women visiting earth. Lights in the sky don't "prove" it. They should be researched. Radar tracings don't prove it. They should be looked at. Being butt-f...ed doesn't prove it. Matter of fact that (if true) really does sound more demonic than alien. There is no material no landing pads no nothing that proves life from Outer Space.

I didn't say there was conclusive proof--known to us laymen--but a great deal of evidence. Witness accounts, landing traces, photos etc, are evidence.

---------- Post added at 11:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:25 AM ----------

What is the difference between a creator god and an alien bio-engineer?

The latter is at least a rational concept but I don't believe in either.

If some shining being were to appear to us, stepping down from a UFO or a ladder from heaven and claimed to be our creators, owners, and caretakers, should we believe them and submit? Should we believe them after they've demonstrated their godhood or alien superiority and worship, obey, or otherwise recognize their alleged authority over us?

Lol, no. We were obviously not created but evolved naturally.

 

[PararealitySaint]

What on earth does that mean? That we better toe the line for godhood claimants because they know something we don't? How is that different from a alien bio-engineer who would obviously know plenty that we don't?

Ok, initially I was being polite and answering your rather thick questions with as much sincerity and integrity as I could muster under the circumstances, but I can see that even after this you found it necessary to reply with invectives and attacks, so now I'll complete the vicious circle with a finality of my own.

"Toe the line?"....Are you that daft or do you really need a lesson in philosophical comprehension? What part of "origination" and the basic concept of what came first, the chicken or the egg don't you understand? Someone had to have created your precious Bio-Engineer, unless he, or she, or in so far as your Ancient Alien Questing, "It" had to have been created, or at least the "natural" aspect of progression had to have been developed over a maturation cycle in order to have progressed even into a fantastically over the stars Zeta Wannabe Protege such as yourself.

And by the way, it isn't we "Godhead's" which know more than you, but there is one that does....Look forward to meeting him one day and stating how you thought it was a bio-engineer who created your carcass instead. Maybe then you'll come to grips with reality and realize you don't have all the answers, I know I don't....But this guarantee you can take to the bank....

He does.

So to solve this problem we should assume it is a divine being? I don't think so

.

Nah Na Nah Na Na.....Did you stick out your tongue when you said this one to your computer screen while typing? Man. The sad part about this is that I'm actually taking out the remaining few minutes answering. It sure wasn't the individual you use in your signature quote, so who do you think would be in the position to have started this all, maybe Dr Boylan? I know, perhaps it was all some random biological and chemical soup which was always here and just decided to form thousands of different types of every known (and many unknown's such as perhaps your Martian friends) living organism.

Which deity? How do you tell which one is the right one? Can you do due diligence in giving the over 3000 deities that humanity has worshiped their chance?

That's for every man in his own good conscious to arrive at and decide. All I know is something made us and something is there to continue us on this journey. I call him Jesus Christ because that's the deity I have chosen for me.

You make little or no sense I'm afraid.

If I had your belief system (according to your words here) I'd be REALLY afraid as well. So much so that I'd want to stay alive and healthy as long as my humanly backed Bio-engineer friends could give me, because...well, you know, as soon as it's over....and without that deity....

Nothing but the void.

Oh and bye the way, I bet your one of these people who as soon as something happens terribly traumatic in your life, you're the first one to exclaim passionately, "Ohhhh God help me", or "Oh my God".....I bet it would be this instead of, "Ohhhh Bee boop The Venusian"....Or, "Dr, Plum the bio-engineer help!".....

God Bless you my friend. This will be the last time I reply to any of your posts on this thread, and I pray that one day you come to the realization that even though you might not believe in it or like it at all, God is ready to help you when your ready to be helped.

Ciao

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Ok, initially I was being polite and answering your rather thick questions with as much sincerity and integrity as I could muster under the circumstances, but I can see that even after this you found it necessary to reply with invectives and attacks, so now I'll complete the vicious circle with a finality of my own.

"Toe the line?"....Are you that daft or do you really need a lesson in philosophical comprehension? What part of "origination" and the basic concept of what came first, the chicken or the egg don't you understand? Someone had to have created your precious Bio-Engineer, unless he, or she, or in so far as your Ancient Alien Questing, "It" had to have been created, or at least the "natural" aspect of progression had to have been developed over a maturation cycle in order to have progressed even into a fantastically over the stars Zeta Wannabe Protege such as yourself.

And by the way, it isn't we "Godhead's" which know more than you, but there is one that does....Look forward to meeting him one day and stating how you thought it was a bio-engineer who created your carcass instead. Maybe then you'll come to grips with reality and realize you don't have all the answers, I know I don't....But this guarantee you can take to the bank....

He does.


Nah Na Nah Na Na.....Did you stick out your tongue when you said this one to your computer screen while typing? Man. The sad part about this is that I'm actually taking out the remaining few minutes answering. It sure wasn't the individual you use in your signature quote, so who do you think would be in the position to have started this all, maybe Dr Boylan? I know, perhaps it was all some random biological and chemical soup which was always here and just decided to form thousands of different types of every known (and many unknown's such as perhaps your Martian friends) living organism.



That's for every man in his own good conscious to arrive at and decide. All I know is something made us and something is there to continue us on this journey. I call him Jesus Christ because that's the deity I have chosen for me.



If I had your belief system (according to your words here) I'd be REALLY afraid as well. So much so that I'd want to stay alive and healthy as long as my humanly backed Bio-engineer friends could give me, because...well, you know, as soon as it's over....and without that deity....

Nothing but the void.

Oh and bye the way, I bet your one of these people who as soon as something happens terribly traumatic in your life, you're the first one to exclaim passionately, "Ohhhh God help me", or "Oh my God".....I bet it would be this instead of, "Ohhhh Bee boop The Venusian"....Or, "Dr, Plum the bio-engineer help!".....

God Bless you my friend. This will be the last time I reply to any of your posts on this thread, and I pray that one day you come to the realization that even though you might not believe in it or like it at all, God is ready to help you when your ready to be helped.

Ciao

I really don't see how Trained Observer was "attacking" anyone with his questions. You believe in a god, he does not. Does that make you better than him?

 

[Sean Elifritz]

Ok, initially I was being polite and answering your rather thick questions with as much sincerity and integrity as I could muster under the circumstances, but I can see that even after this you found it necessary to reply with invectives and attacks, so now I'll complete the vicious circle with a finality of my own.

"Toe the line?"....Are you that daft or do you really need a lesson in philosophical comprehension? What part of "origination" and the basic concept of what came first, the chicken or the egg don't you understand? Someone had to have created your precious Bio-Engineer, unless he, or she, or in so far as your Ancient Alien Questing, "It" had to have been created, or at least the "natural" aspect of progression had to have been developed over a maturation cycle in order to have progressed even into a fantastically over the stars Zeta Wannabe Protege such as yourself.

And by the way, it isn't we "Godhead's" which know more than you, but there is one that does....Look forward to meeting him one day and stating how you thought it was a bio-engineer who created your carcass instead. Maybe then you'll come to grips with reality and realize you don't have all the answers, I know I don't....But this guarantee you can take to the bank....

He does.


Nah Na Nah Na Na.....Did you stick out your tongue when you said this one to your computer screen while typing? Man. The sad part about this is that I'm actually taking out the remaining few minutes answering. It sure wasn't the individual you use in your signature quote, so who do you think would be in the position to have started this all, maybe Dr Boylan? I know, perhaps it was all some random biological and chemical soup which was always here and just decided to form thousands of different types of every known (and many unknown's such as perhaps your Martian friends) living organism.



That's for every man in his own good conscious to arrive at and decide. All I know is something made us and something is there to continue us on this journey. I call him Jesus Christ because that's the deity I have chosen for me.



If I had your belief system (according to your words here) I'd be REALLY afraid as well. So much so that I'd want to stay alive and healthy as long as my humanly backed Bio-engineer friends could give me, because...well, you know, as soon as it's over....and without that deity....

Nothing but the void.

Oh and bye the way, I bet your one of these people who as soon as something happens terribly traumatic in your life, you're the first one to exclaim passionately, "Ohhhh God help me", or "Oh my God".....I bet it would be this instead of, "Ohhhh Bee boop The Venusian"....Or, "Dr, Plum the bio-engineer help!".....

God Bless you my friend. This will be the last time I reply to any of your posts on this thread, and I pray that one day you come to the realization that even though you might not believe in it or like it at all, God is ready to help you when your ready to be helped.

Ciao

I'll never understand how anyone can speak with such certainty about something nobody has ever seen, ever heard, ever anything.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

I'll never understand how anyone can speak with such certainty about something nobody has ever seen, ever heard, ever anything.

I ask myself that all the time.

 

[PararealitySaint]

I really don't see how Trained Observer was "attacking" anyone with his questions. You believe in a god, he does not. Does that make you better than him?

Your serious? And your a moderator?

"You make little or no sense"

If that isn't an attack I don't know what is....But that's ok, you're inference is about as bad....

"Does that make you better than him?"

Hmmm....And that isn't an invective?

Ok, you are a moderator and this gives you the right to pose a question of morals within the context of an argument for what reason? I thought a moderator was to moderate and not infer toward a side just because he or she decided that my words meant I was telling someone else I was better than....

Please...I pray Gene is reading this and able to understand just what type of Moderator he has moderating.

Don't worry, I won't give you the chance to have to feel it important to impose your defense any longer.



---------- Post added at 08:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:47 PM ----------

I'll never understand how anyone can speak with such certainty about something nobody has ever seen, ever heard, ever anything.

True, so therefore you must also agree to give the same weight to "E.T." as well...Because just like there isn't any viable proof of what I feel, there sure as heck isn't anything remotely proof positive of "E.T." either..

Glad you see it our way.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Your serious? And your a moderator?

"You make little or no sense"

If that isn't an attack I don't know what is....But that's ok, you're inference is about as bad....

"Does that make you better than him?"

Hmmm....And that isn't an invective?

Ok, you are a moderator and this gives you the right to pose a question of morals within the context of an argument for what reason? I thought a moderator was to moderate and not infer toward a side just because he or she decided that my words meant I was telling someone else I was better than....

Please...I pray Gene is reading this and able to understand just what type of Moderator he has moderating.

Don't worry, I won't give you the chance to have to feel it important to impose your defense any longer.



---------- Post added at 08:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:47 PM ----------



True, so therefore you must also agree to give the same weight to "E.T." as well...Because just like there isn't any viable proof of what I feel, there sure as heck isn't anything remotely proof positive of "E.T." either..

Glad you see it our way.

Dude, I'm not worried. I was just pointing out that I have seen much worse than someone saying that another person makes"little or no sense." I did find that you were coming off sounding pompus, in that your belief was better than his non-belief, but that's just my opinion.

Take care.

 

[Sean Elifritz]

True, so therefore you must also agree to give the same weight to "E.T." as well...Because just like there isn't any viable proof of what I feel, there sure as heck isn't anything remotely proof positive of "E.T." either..

Glad you see it our way.

Well, I don't talk with certainty about aliens. And although the evidence is weak it's a little better than the few thousand year old accounts for religion.

 

[PararealitySaint]

Dude, I'm not worried. I was just pointing out that I have seen much worse than someone saying that another person makes"little or no sense." I did find that you were coming off sounding pompus, in that your belief was better than his non-belief, but that's just my opinion.

Take care.

Case in point, a moderator who feels the need to infer an "opinion" as if a side is drawn in an argument, not for the sake of actually correcting a term of agreement or statute, but instead because the "dude" isn't cow towing to some crazy E.T. philosophy.

Also, since when does a moderator who is entrusted with terms of agreement judgment calls incite <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <wunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> critical remarks about a person's opinion just because he or she isn't happy with a contradictory view point?

Lastly, learn to spell...It's pompous not pompus.


---------- Post added at 09:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:47 PM ----------

Well, I don't talk with certainty about aliens. And although the evidence is weak it's a little better than the few thousand year old accounts for religion.

Weak? Try not even close to a smidgen of evidential reality whatsoever. You can comment all you wish that religion has this lacking, but honestly you are sorely losing the battle. There are millions of religious people and other than the mere thousands who put their hopes and dreams in E.T., weakness is the most liberal answer for intelligent life even giving two shi's about us lowly apes as you and others who believe in evolutionary science aspire toward...ridiculous is more like it.