There will be no Disclosure

Sean Elifritz · Jan 16, 2011

PararealitySaint said:
Case in point, a moderator who feels the need to infer an "opinion" as if a side is drawn in an argument, not for the sake of actually correcting a term of agreement or statute, but instead because the "dude" isn't cow towing to some crazy E.T. philosophy.

Also, since when does a moderator who is entrusted with terms of agreement judgment calls incite  critical remarks about a person's opinion just because he or she isn't happy with a contradictory view point?

Lastly, learn to spell...It's pompous not pompus.

---------- Post added at 09:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:47 PM ----------

Weak? Try not even close to a smidgen of evidential reality whatsoever. You can comment all you wish that religion has this lacking, but honestly you are sorely losing the battle. There are millions of religious people and other than the mere thousands who put their hopes and dreams in E.T., weakness is the most liberal answer for intelligent life even giving two shi's about us lowly apes as you and others who believe in evolutionary science aspire toward...ridiculous is more like it.

Lol, whatever.

Accounts of religion come from a time when people believed the Earth was flat, that the sun revolved around the earth, that leeches could cure disease, that giants roamed the Earth, that women are property, etc. We don't take any of that seriously anymore but notions of invisible and all-powerful bearded men in the sky should be?

trainedobserver · Jan 16, 2011

PararealitySaint said:
Ok, initially I was being polite and answering your rather thick questions with as much sincerity and integrity as I could muster under the circumstances, but I can see that even after this you found it necessary to reply with invectives and attacks, so now I'll complete the vicious circle with a finality of my own.

We are truly fortunate to have a spiritual giant such as yourself to show us the way to truth and light.

Angel of Ioren · Jan 16, 2011

PararealitySaint said:
Case in point, a moderator who feels the need to infer an "opinion" as if a side is drawn in an argument, not for the sake of actually correcting a term of agreement or statute, but instead because the "dude" isn't cow towing to some crazy E.T. philosophy.

I just want to make it clear that I don't think that we were created by aliens or a god or anything like that.

With regards to moderators with opinions, if you go back and look at posts by any of the other moderators on this forum, we often state our opinions. If I couldn't do that, I would resign my role as moderator immediately.

Just go back and view any exchange between Chris O'Brien and I. We butt heads all the time on pretty much everything which means we have differing opinions! Look PararealitySaint, defend your idea as much as you want, but stick to the point and don't focus on the people making the comments.

Trajanus · Jan 16, 2011

Wickerman1972 said:
Well, I don't talk with certainty about aliens. And although the evidence is weak it's a little better than the few thousand year old accounts for religion.

A "little better"?? Far from perfect but still orders of magnitude better.

As Ehrman and others have long known, the "few thousand year old accounts for religion" are loaded with contradictions and flaws.

---------- Post added at 11:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:16 AM ----------

...God is ready to help you when your ready to be helped.

Lol, talk about needing help. :rolleyes:

Angel of Ioren said:
I just want to make it clear that I don't think that we were created by aliens or a god or anything like that.

Of course not; both are superfluous in view of all the evidence for natural evolution.

---------- Post added at 11:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:19 AM ----------

Wickerman1972 said:
Lol, whatever. Accounts of religion come from a time when people believed the Earth was flat, that the sun revolved around the earth, that leeches could cure disease, that giants roamed the Earth, that women are property, etc. We don't take any of that seriously anymore but notions of invisible and all-powerful bearded men in the sky should be?

People in the past at least had the excuse of not having any other way to explain the world except in terms of "god" or gods. But science has made them unneeded as well as invisible. It's about time they just vanished altogether.

Kieran · Jan 16, 2011

PararealitySaint said:
Case in point, a moderator who feels the need to infer an "opinion" as if a side is drawn in an argument, not for the sake of actually correcting a term of agreement or statute, but instead because the "dude" isn't cow towing to some crazy E.T. philosophy.

Also, since when does a moderator who is entrusted with terms of agreement judgment calls incite  critical remarks about a person's opinion just because he or she isn't happy with a contradictory view point?

Lastly, learn to spell...It's pompous not pompus.

---------- Post added at 09:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:47 PM ----------

Weak? Try not even close to a smidgen of evidential reality whatsoever. You can comment all you wish that religion has this lacking, but honestly you are sorely losing the battle. There are millions of religious people and other than the mere thousands who put their hopes and dreams in E.T., weakness is the most liberal answer for intelligent life even giving two shi's about us lowly apes as you and others who believe in evolutionary science aspire toward...ridiculous is more like it.

Don't worry lot of people on this forum, have a real honest hatred for spiritual ideas of any kind. As for Train., Well you just need to understand were, he is coming from in his discussions with you! I think he mentioned way back, when he first joined this forum, that he believed in the Bible and all things that were religious. He soon learned, and correct me if I am wrong, all this was a crock.

I think train, feels betrayed by the religion he once believed in and feels he need to tackle this subject straight on. Maybe betrayed is too strong a word here, but when ever this subject has come up in discussions, I have seen train jump in. I have no problem with that, since Train is not asking ridiculous questions of you, but sometimes, he does ask certain questions that nobody on this planet can answer successfully or truthfully.

He has the ability to write Train and he is thoughtful, but train you can be very aggressive in expressing yourself, that is fine it happens, everyone does it in a heated debate, but if your too aggressive in tone, people just don't bother with you and ignore you. I have done it a few times myself in my posting, so I no better than you or anyone else for that matter.

We can't even figure out what UFO's are and they've been seen flying around our atmosphere for sixty years. So answering the hardest question, that any person could ask of another. How did we all get here!

Well that has been looked at for thousands and thousands of years many theories exist, but honestly who the hell knows how we got here really? That is why life and death is so interesting a little mystery harms nobody, this fact, will only be learned upon death either it exists or it does not. Either way everyone on this planet will experience death, nobody has the power to cheat death.

Religion often attempts to answer questions about what is GOD, were in reality it should not. I have no hangups about there being a God a supreme being. We believe we are superior to every other creature on this planet, so what the big deal, if there was something that created everything that exists, it not that crazy of an idea really. Personally I don't believe GOD created everything. Science does explain how big things like planets have come into being, but life is slightly different, there is a chance a possibility that human life, and other life did not randomly appear from nothing, intelligent design on this planet may have happened?

ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM · Jan 16, 2011

Who knows good folks and bad folks sounds much like Earth

Maybe if a major disaster cause total breakdown of all civilization on Earth or invasion from ETs. Just hope Will Smith is leading the fighters

and Tommy Lee Jones is packing and holding a RPG.

tyder001 · Jan 16, 2011

I try to stay out of straight religious discussions. I find that when you dig deep enough we all are "heritics" of one kind or another. I personally find it laughable that somebody can honestly "beleive" in folks from outer space and then laugh at a religious person. But, hey that's just me. :-)

The bible is not "one" book written by a secratary at the feet of the Allmighty. The bible is a collection of man's search for meaning and myth and politics and sexism and racism and history and wisdom and b.s. It's all (imo) in dere! :-)

I have my personal relationship with "Holy Spirit" for want of a better term and I have found much comfort in Buddist meditation and Catholic Mystics and my own reading of the bible. As well as my own search here in my own skin. Nobody, be they religious or atheist or truck driver or scientist has ever convinced me that they had "the truth" for me. Science is wonderful but it's not a "thing" to be appealed to. It's a collection of human disciplines and discoveries and I use it and appreciate it every day. I read the bible for myself and on the occassion that I do read it I meditate and think on it and come to the same conclusions that I have come to for quite some time now. It's not perfect and God is not an old man in the sky. Christ indeed walked the earth and was very much an incarnation of God/Spirit/pure mind/ consciouness or simply "being" But, so am I and so are you. I am still (although, I'm over fifty) discovering and searching and bullshitting my way on this earth. Explain God? Sorry, I can't at this point. But, then I can't explain or point to natural selection to eveybodies satisfaction or what a "thought" really is (sorry guys stabbing a spot in the brain and arousing a reaction is still not an explantion of a thought.) :-)

So, anyway I don't care what you believe or don't believe in. I don't care if you shout there is no god or no life after death. I don't care if you believe I will burn in hell or come back as a fish. I take people for what they are. Children playing grown ups and making "statements" about reality that the next generation or the one after that will discard as a myth or incorrect.

"The letter kills..but the spirit gives life....Jesus Christ
"The thing that you would not have done to you...don't do to somebody else....Buddha.
"Will it go round in circles."...Billy Preston
Peace. 8)

trainedobserver · Jan 16, 2011

Kieran said:
He soon learned, and correct me if I am wrong, all this was a crock.

It actually took several decades. Most of my life in fact.

Kieran said:
I think train, feels betrayed by the religion he once believed in and feels he need to tackle this subject straight on.

The betrayal that is of any significance is the betrayal of my own better judgment and reason which I advocated for religious faith. It was a failing on my part that I can hardly blame others or a nebulous thing like a religion for.

Kieran said:
I have no problem with that, since Train is not asking ridiculous questions of you, but sometimes, he does ask certain questions that nobody on this planet can answer successfully or truthfully.

And that is the point of them. When will someone who is asked these things reply with that truth?

Kieran said:
, but train you can be very aggressive in expressing yourself

I have to say Kieran that I have made an effort to be clear, concise, and to the point in this forum. I also do my best to keep to the discussion of ideas and not individuals. And I don't think saying that someone isn't make sense to you is "attacking" a person in any way. It certainly wasn't meant to be.

Kieran said:
How did we all get here!

I think it is unanswerable due to a basic lack of resources. The better question is what do we do now?

Kieran said:
I have no hangups about there being a God a supreme being.

I honestly don't either. There is just no way that human beings can know such things. I'm willing to hear the explanation for how we could. How a subset could comprehend the super-set to which it belongs.

The problem comes in people not being able to recognize that all of notions about what this thing they want to call God is, have their origins in human imaginations. If not theirs, then some other persons. I first realized that the world-view I held didn't line up with reality. After I got the courage to abandon my faith and look at things more objectively I realized that we cannot know these outer things which are beyond the time/space resource availability of human experience. Therefore we make them up with our imaginations and call them ultimate realities. I think our only chance of understanding reality to is to step outside of that and recognize how the mechanics of our own minds want to trap us in this manner. Belief is the enemy. To unerringly believe something is to slam to door on the black iron prison, if you will.

dyingsun · Jan 16, 2011

That's the mother of all 'ending arguments *clap*

Sean Elifritz · Jan 16, 2011

Trajanus said:
A "little better"?? Far from perfect but still orders of magnitude better. As Ehrman and others have long known, the "few thousand year old accounts for religion" are loaded with contradictions and flaws.

---------- Post added at 11:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:16 AM ----------

Lol, talk about needing help.

Of course not; both are superfluous in view of all the evidence for natural evolution.

---------- Post added at 11:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:19 AM ----------

People in the past at least had the excuse of not having any other way to explain the world except in terms of "god" or gods. But science has made them unneeded as well as invisible. It's about time they just vanished altogether.

I just want to make clear I wasn't advocating humanity being created by aliens either. When he brought up aliens I was talking about the modern accounts.

trainedobserver · Jan 17, 2011

Angel of Ioren said:
I just want to make it clear that I don't think that we were created by aliens or a god or anything like that.

For the record neither do I.

Trajanus · Jan 17, 2011

Kieran said:
Well that has been looked at for thousands and thousands of years many theories exist, but honestly who the hell knows how we got here really? That is why life and death is so interesting a little mystery harms nobody, this fact, will only be learned upon death either it exists or it does not. Either way everyone on this planet will experience death, nobody has the power to cheat death.

Science might conquer aging.

I have no hangups about there being a God a supreme being. We believe we are superior to every other creature on this planet, so what the big deal,

We obviously exist whereas there's no basis for "god." The thing is unobserved itself and there's no need for it to explain anything.

.. if there was something that created everything that exists, it not that crazy of an idea really.

Yes it is, because things weren't created in the sense of appearing out of nowhere; they evolved from what came before. The Universe seems like an exception but quantum uncertainty explains its spontaneous appearance without any external creator.

Personally I don't believe GOD created everything. Science does explain how big things like planets have come into being, but life is slightly different, there is a chance a possibility that human life, and other life did not randomly appear from nothing, intelligent design on this planet may have happened?

Try reading pro biology and paleontology journals. Evolution is absolutely established, as a fact. Of course humans didn't appear from nothing--we evolved from earlier hominids.

PararealitySaint · Jan 17, 2011

trainedobserver said:
We are truly fortunate to have a spiritual giant such as yourself to show us the way to truth and light.

Thank you. It is the first compliment I have received from you but alas, I am not worthy of such an honor. Instead I divert the compliment to he who is more worthy of it than myself.....

And please, know too that I hold the same respect and fortunate advantage for yourself. It is nice to see that in these trying times two opposites can still respect and acknowledge each other in such a nice way.

P.S. Even though I stated that I would not reply to this thread for your posts, please forgive me as I felt that the goodness of your prose deserved a just reply in kind. You truly are a master of both scientific adherence and humanistic truth and for this we should all be thankful. :shy:

---------- Post added at 10:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:21 AM ----------

Angel of Ioren said:
I just want to make it clear that I don't think that we were created by aliens or a god or anything like that.

With regards to moderators with opinions, if you go back and look at posts by any of the other moderators on this forum, we often state our opinions. If I couldn't do that, I would resign my role as moderator immediately.

Just go back and view any exchange between Chris O'Brien and I. We butt heads all the time on pretty much everything which means we have differing opinions! Look PararealitySaint, defend your idea as much as you want, but stick to the point and don't focus on the people making the comments.

Sorry, big difference between stating an opinion in the capacity of a moderator in the context of augmentative side defending, and doing so to curtail an obvious infringement of a rule or guideline.

You should not be a moderator if you so decide to use your position in the context of challenging opinion based input while wearing that hat, no matter if it's with Chris, or Gene or anyone on this forum. That is not "moderating" for the sake of the word's true meaning or definition as the forum community has come to know it, no matter how many people might disagree with my "opinions here", but instead taking bias because of your self indulgent whimsy....which by the way is sadly underscored and so mistaken it's difficult to waste any more time on anyway.

Angel of Ioren · Jan 17, 2011

PararealitySaint said:
Sorry, big difference between stating an opinion in the capacity of a moderator in the context of augmentative side defending, and doing so to curtail an obvious infringement of a rule or guideline. You should not be a moderator if you so decide to use your position in the context of challenging opinion based input while wearing that hat, no matter if it's with Chris, or Gene or anyone on this forum. That is not "moderating" for the sake of the word's true meaning or definition as the forum community has come to know it, no matter how many people might disagree with my "opinions here", but instead taking bias because of your self indulgent whimsy....which by the way is sadly underscored and so mistaken it's difficult to waste any more time on anyway.

If I had given you an infraction of some kind, I would understand your frustration, but I did not. No one is breaking any rules here by stating an opinion. If you have an issue, please feel free to bring it up with myself, or one of the other moderators through a personal message.

Thanks.

PararealitySaint · Jan 17, 2011

Angel of Ioren said:
If I had given you an infraction of some kind, I would understand your frustration, but I did not. No one is breaking any rules here by stating an opinion. If you have an issue, please feel free to bring it up with myself, or one of the other moderators through a personal message.

Thanks.

Once again and this is getting tediously tiring....it had nothing to do with any guidelines or rules of this forum, and that is indeed THE POINT. You initially took advantage of your position as Moderator of this forum and decided to transpose your agenda into the context of inquiring why I was so crass in my reply to a post in a thread. You did so with the inference that I was judging another persons disbelief and thereby force positioning a judgment call that I was a "holier than thou" individual.

Now I have been a moderator of many forums, most of which were probably bulletin boards long before you were in diapers. NEVER in the history of my influence on said boards or forums had I ever donned on my "Moderator" hat and outwardly chastised another individual whose opinion differed from my own, merely because I felt like it and didn't respect the authority I was given as Moderator in the process. I would instead log on with my "hats off" namesake or avatar and then state my "opinion" for the record.

What you did is a moral violation of every aspect of Moderation. The people who are members of this forum need not have to worry about an authority figure favoring one or the other in "opinion" siding. The very idea that Gene created a show which seeks the truth without initially judging or instilling opinions, I would have hoped would have rubbed off a little on you.

As this is the third time I have replied to you, please allow it to be the last and at least understand where it is I am coming from here. When you side with an argument as a Moderator you force the hands of others who might disagree with you to feel as though their thoughts and opinions are less respected, not because you don't have the right to have an opinion, but because those very same people look to you to be a "moderator" and thus moderate in a balanced form outside of side favoring; only taking into consideration the infringement of the forum's guidelines, rules, etc to step in when this is the case.

Facius_Cardan · Jan 17, 2011

PararealitySaint said:
Once again and this is getting tediously tiring....it had nothing to do with any guidelines or rules of this forum, and that is indeed THE POINT. You initially took advantage of your position as Moderator of this forum and decided to transpose your agenda into the context of inquiring why I was so crass in my reply to a post in a thread. You did so with the inference that I was judging another persons disbelief and thereby force positioning a judgment call that I was a "holier than thou" individual.

I defend no opinions but my own, because I always suppose others have at least some arguments to stand by theirs. I don't agree with much of what is said in this forum, but that doesn't mean I have to go into direct confrontation with another poster. This discussion was quite nice until we got stuck with technicalities on who was possibily offending whom and what a moderator is or should be. I'd like to pour some cold water over this subject and call for some good sense here. Please let's stick to the healthy exchange of ideas, no matter how different or contradictory they may be, and have some fun. After all this is just an internet forum...

Angel of Ioren · Jan 17, 2011

Lets bring it back to the original post and keep any complaints about what a moderator should and should not do to PMs.

5hownewsday said:
Why do I say that? Because even if it came we won't believe it, so we will be no further ahead than we are now. Short of someone dragging an Alien body out of a Top Secret facility or hi-jacking a reverse engineered saucer and taking the CNN crew out for a joyride... NOTHING any says will be believed. And even those to scenarios would be questioned.

ATS is the haven for way out there beliefs... so I am going to pose a few questions in a minute. But first a couple points.

Bob Lazar came out and told us about what he did at S4... some believe, some undecided, some say he is a fraud and others say if he did work there he was a janitor or some low level employee....

Now we all here at ATS know Area 51 exists and they do some really top secret stuff out there... and many believe there is something to do with Aliens or Flying Saucers... but when someone does come out and say something, well it's NEVER good enough.

The same thing really applies for every and all whistle blowers or insiders... so we are all here expecting disclosure, but when it comes we don't believe.

Also remember that while some claim to have held top positions and had military careers, the lowly janitor is an invisible person and sees everything, and the cook, as any NAVY person will tell you knows everything

So here are the questions...

1) Which insider, whistle blower or 'ufologist' do YOU believe is telling the truth.

2) is that person telling you all truth, or has a good story mixed with added 'stuff' to make them look good

3) WHY do you believe his story over someone else?

4) Short of an Alien spacecraft landing in Times Square or other such place, what would it take for you to be convinced that someone is telling the truth?

Maybe we could collect a list of names with a yay/nay option and tally those and see who has the most credibility

trainedobserver · Jan 17, 2011

I have an idea. You're a Christian right PRS? Why don't you just forgive everyone here of whatever trespasses you feel have been committed against you, pray for their well-being, and let's all just move on? I'm willing to move on and I'm quite sure Angelo is as well. Our conduct in this forum speaks more to our fellow readers about our spirituality than any statement we have to make about the particulars of our individual belief systems.

PararealitySaint · Jan 17, 2011

Facius_Cardan said:
I defend no opinions but my own, because I always suppose others have at least some arguments to stand by theirs. I don't agree with much of what is said in this forum, but that doesn't mean I have to go into direct confrontation with another poster. This discussion was quite nice until we got stuck with technicalities on who was possibily offending whom and what a moderator is or should be. I'd like to pour some cold water over this subject and call for some good sense here. Please let's stick to the healthy exchange of ideas, no matter how different or contradictory they may be, and have some fun. After all this is just an internet forum...

I can agree to this friend and thank you for posting such a well thought of reply to an otherwise heated situation. I know we might not agree with everything said here on this forum, and if anyone felt that I was being out-rightly judgmental in my replying, I apologize and will do what I can to keep my "anger" or perceived of hostility in check.

My intent was to perhaps show just another aspect of the belief in why disclosure will not happen in the way so many people want it to. I don't propose to have all the answers, and honestly, I don't believe that anyone else on here has all the answers either.

What I can agree with is that the government must know something we do not. I don't believe they will ever "disclose" a thing, and it will be up to the lay people to put forth the truth to what is out there.

Lastly, Facius, whether I am wrong, the E.T. defenders are wrong, or both of us are wrong and there is something else out there we have no idea about, I am sure we can all agree that whatever reasons the government has to keep this from the public, THERE ARE keeping something from us....

Would you agree to this?

trainedobserver · Jan 17, 2011

>1) Which insider, whistle blower or 'ufologist' do YOU believe is telling the truth.

I think that is worded wrong. "Telling the truth" implies some might have some truth to tell. "Who do you think is worth listening to?" Might be the better question.

Vallee.

2) is that person telling you all truth, or has a good story mixed with added 'stuff' to make them look good

Vallee is pretty straightforward and has done a lot of boots on the ground investigations.

3) WHY do you believe his story over someone else?

He isn't prone to jumping to conclusions and he operates outside of ufology proper.

4) Short of an Alien spacecraft landing in Times Square or other such place, what would it take for you to be convinced that someone is telling the truth?

Of the "whistle-blowers" and whatnot it would just take them producing something of what they talk about. I think 99.9% of the whistle-blower stuff is pure fabrication. The thing is, if they landed in Times Square and handed out free-energy devices to everyone walking by I'd still be highly suspicious of anything they had to say. Which in a way gets back to the point of the thread. Who do you trust?

Here is my question to add to the mix:
Can we ever trust non-humans if we find them or they find us?
Can we trust anything that may have been communicated to our government officials by non-humans or heaven forbid, humans from somewhere else (another planet or dimension)? I say we can't. I think the evidence shows that information that reportedly comes from non-humans (revelatory knowledge, channeled knowledge, etc., etc.) has historically been highly contradictory. If cosmic beings were really speaking to human beings through inspiration, direct contact, revelation, or channeling then you would think there would be coherent message. There isn't. The question of who to believe is none of them. Don't believe a damn thing. It is an incredibly tempting and terribly dangerous thing to do with this business. The reason? The entire puppet show (or the faux-reality show) is designed to make you believe, that is why. I don't care if they come at us as superior aliens or creator gods riding on clouds, we should doubt everything about them, challenge them, and treat them like dangerous animals, with respect (for the great inherent danger) and great caution.

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